Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » MAM 2.4.5 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values - RELEASE!
| MAM 2.4.5 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values - RELEASE![message #268973]
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Mon, 27 December 2010 00:21 
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 MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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[color:#FF6600]MAM 2.4.5 - MJOne's Ammunition Mod - 2.4.5![/color]
VISIT THE HOMEPAGE!
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This mod is made for JA2 1.13.4552
[color:#FF0000]Visit the homepage to read about the upcoming MAM 2.5 patch![/color]
Features
Calculated Values
- New Damage Values for every weapon ingame, calculated based on:
- Bullet Width
- Bullet Weight
- Bullet Speed
- Bullet Shape
- Bullet Type
- Barrel Length
- New Tumble Values for every caliber ingame, calculated based on:
- Bullet Width
- Bullet Weight
- Bullet Speed
- Bullet Shape
- Bullet Type
- New Penetration Values for every caliber ingame, calculated based on:
- Bullet Width
- Bullet Weight
- Bullet Speed
- Bullet Shape
- Bullet Type
- Calculated Range values for all weapons!
- Calculated OLD CTH values for all weapons!
- Calculated NCTH values for all weapons!
- Changed most one-handed smg's, to two handed!
- Future ammo addon support!
- Two new invisble ammotypes (JHP, JSP)
- Splitted errorenous ammotype AP/FMJ to AP and FMJ, AP IS NOT FMJ!
- Some attatchment tweaks!
- Possibility of ZERO damage for all calibers!
- All ammotypes now have correct divisor value! (Old buckshot = Damage/4 is now = Damage/9, divisior is equal to number of pellets shot)
- 50 weapons for the enemy to choose from, at every level of the game!
- Calculated price values for all weapons!
Overview
Here I will present the inner workings of the MOD. I have based all my formulas on extensive research and fiddled with them to suit the gameplay.
I have paid a lot of attention to the thing called Energy Transfer. I will explain that furter down.
All the vanilla ammotypes Ball, FMJ, AP, HP, Match, Glaser, Tracer, AET, Buckshot, etc have all been replaced by ammotypes based upon REAL data.
Instead of having one ammotype with one tumble and penetration value for all calibers, I have made SEVERAL ammotypes for EVERY caliber in game, let's have a look:
Ammotype ----- Penetration Multiplier ----- Penetration Divisor ----- Tumble Multiplier ----- Tumble Divisor
9x19mm FMJ ------------ 947 ------------------------- 1000 --------------------- 100 -------------------- 100 -----
9x19mm AP --------------- 38 -------------------------- 100 ----------------------- 80 -------------------- 100 -----
9x19mm HP ------------- 284 -------------------------- 100 ---------------------- 160 -------------------- 100 -----
.45 ACP FMJ ------------ 1350 ------------------------ 1000 --------------------- 100 -------------------- 100 -----
.45 ACP AP ---------------- 54 ------------------------- 100 ----------------------- 80 -------------------- 100 -----
.45 ACP HP -------------- 405 ------------------------- 100 ---------------------- 160 -------------------- 100 -----
Don't let the tumble value here fool you, the tumble characteristics of each caliber has already been multiplied into the overall damage.
This is not as realistic as I wanted it to be, but it will not confuse anyone:
For example, say you have a weapon that states that it does 10 in damage, but has a tumble value of 1.5,
that means it is actually doing 15 in damage, not the stated 10...
However, you still have different tumble for different ammo types:
FMJ = 1
AP = 0,8
HP = 1,6
Glaser = 2
AET = 1,2
LRN = 1,15
JHP = 1,4
JSP = 1,3
I will post some pictures here to prove to you that there is still a dramatic difference between the calibers performance:
Study this picture in-depth
Toggle Spoiler
First Column = Weapon name
Second Column = Damage on Flesh
Third and so on = Damage while wearing that armor rating
All damage is based on FMJ ammo;
Red cell color = High damage
Orange cell color = Medium damage
Yellow cell color = Low damage
Right click on image and show image or download it to view it in full resolution
FOREWORD
Damage is a complex thing in RL when it comes to ballistics. Humans are 60%-70% water, so pressure and "waves" will form in the body when struck by a strong force.
How that will affect the inner organs and the like is beyond JA2 engine. However, it is worth mentioning. We are not simple wood boards that bullet fly through.
Then there is shock, blunt trauma, bleeding, after effects, fragmentation, deformation, pentration, tumbling, change of trajectory, hit loaction and all that stuff...
We can only try to simulate this to the best of our knowledge...
DAMAGEToggle SpoilerDamage
This is based foremost on Kinetic Energy = ROUND(((0,5*(Bullet-Weight/1000))*(Bullet-Speed^2))*Number-of-Pellets). This is the data I could find on the net, but it is all based upon when the bullet leaves the barrel. This is called "Muzzle Energy". In RL the bullet will start to slowdown as it leaves the barrel. This is not simulated in JA2 except "beyond effective range" as I know it, I might be wrong here. So in order to get a average I have toned down the effect of KE abit here. But the biggest reason is because of ENERGY TRANSFER!
Let's have a look:
If a target is hit by a bullet and the bullet slowdowns and stay in the body of the target, that means that ALL of it's current energy(damage), is transfered to the target. This is as effective as the round can become in terms of energy transfer. On the opposite, if the bullet goes through the body of the target, then that means that the bullet still has energy(damage) in it. So we lose some of it's "damage potential" since all the energy was NOT transfered to the body, otherwise the bullet wouldn't fly onwards. Therefore, we can not only look at KE when determining damage, as I did in my first version, I have now read more, and therefore understand this concept better. This is simulated as well. Another thing that affects damage is the width of the bullet.
A bigger hole = more bleeding potential.
Weapon barrel length will increase damage since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
TUMBLEToggle SpoilerTumble
Tumble is actually called "DAMAGE AFTER ARMOUR" in the XML editor, and it can mean alot of the stuff I mentioned earlier, pressure, fragmentation, trajectory...etc. So that's what I tried to do with my formula. A wider bullet will create a bigger hole and have a bigger area of damage then a smaller one. A longer bullet will create a bigger cavity when it tumbles then a shorter or a round bullet(which can only spin, not tumble, if not deformed). A heavier bullet will more easily penetrate the body intact and not deform or tumble, however it produces more overall KE and pressure, so the overall DAMAGE value will increase. A faster bullet will not slowdown enough to start to tumble unless it is very light. So you can see an intresting dynamic here between weight and speed. There is also the Aero Index which I have made up to stimulate shape of the bullet: 1 = Flat, 2 = Semi-flat, 3 = Round, 4 = Spitzer and so on...A lower value here will INCREASE tumbling/deformation.
Weapon barrel length will decrease tumble since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
PENETRATIONToggle SpoilerPenetration
Penetration is a very complicated matter. There are many factors that are in play here, I have only taken a few of those into play here. First off, Diamater of the bullet. The width of the bullet will affect penetration in a major way. A wider bullet will have to meet alot more friction than a smaller one, and therefore penetration will be much less...unless...the energy(KE) behind it is greater! So I have tried to balance these two against each other. Also the Aero Index, or bullet shape, will also play a big role here, a flat bullet will not penetrate as far as a sharp one.
Weapon barrel length will increase penetration since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
RANGEToggle SpoilerRange
Range is based upon a common formula that takes the height of the object when being thrown/fired, gravity and in my mod Aero Index(Bullet shape) and number of pellets fired into count. It is pretty straight forward. The max range formula is based upon shooting the weapon standing up with the weapon 1.65 meters above ground with flat elevation. This is not very realistic I know, but it was the easiest way to get a formula that is semi-realistic and easy to understand. In RL you would tilt the weapon upwards for long range shoots. I am aware of this. We don't have any elevation or azimuth feature ingame, so this is also the reason why I used this particular formula as well.
Weapon barrel length will increase range since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
ACCURACYToggle SpoilerAccuracy
This formula is most prone to get shot down, I suspect.  Here I reason like this, a faster bullet and a heavier will be less affected by wind, air resistance, moisture etc. A wider bullet will meet more air resistance and therefore be prone to move sideways more, which means it will be less accurate. This is a VERY simple equation, but it works pretty good across the board. Atleast, that's what I think. Remember, with the new CTH(NCTH), recoil will compensate for things like shooting the AK vs the M4 in auto-mode.
Weapon barrel length will increase accuracy since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
SUMMARYToggle SpoilerSummary
I have tried to the best of my knowledge to do the best I could. This is MY POINT OF VIEW, you might have another and I invite you to make your own mod, because we all just want to have the BEST JA2 experience.
Im am by NO chance a mathematician, and you could most certanly make these formulas much more complicated and more beautiful, and I welcome that. But I have tried to do my best, to walk a fine line between realism and gameplay. Wheter I succeeded or failed, is your judgement to make.
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Updates
Armor Overhaul! - Patch 2.4.5Toggle SpoilerArmor Overhaul!
Features:
I have...- ...overhauled all the armor pieces ingame
- ...changed armor stat on different types of armor so the difference is more prominent
- ...made armor more effective in general
- ...made armor deteriorate much faster
- ...made it so coating decreases deterioration alot
- ...changed camoflauge bonus on each piece so that they get the type of bonus depending on the color of that particular piece
- ...calculated prices on each piece depending on stat
- ...decreased hering range for helmets that covers the ears
- ...added stealth bonus to some cloth pieces (otherwise useless)
- ...added AP bonus to officer caps (otherwise useless)
Description
Well, I decided to make an complete armor overhaul since I felt that armor was now too weak when using my mod. I have tried to spread out the values so that every armor type have different qualities.
I also felt that armor should foremost give you a MOVEMENT penalty rather then a ACCURACY penalty. A sniper wearing a kevlar vest will still hit you in the head every day of the week. However some of the armors will still give you an ACCURACY penalty, where it is applicable. The different armors will now have alot wider price spectrum then before. They will deteriorate much faster but be better off stopping those first bursts of bullets. Treated and coated now plays a bigger role then before, kinda gameplayish, but it works fine here, atleast I think.
Some examples:
Armor rating (thicker layer increases armor rating)
Standard = x*1
Treated = x*1.25
Coated = x*1.5
Coverage (coating will neglect some of the soft spots)
Standard = x*1
Treated = x*1.03
Coated = x*1.06
Degradation (coating will decrease this alot)
Standard = x*1
Treated = x*0.75
Coated = x*0.5
Weight (coating will increase this some)
Standard = x*1
Treated = x*1.05
Coated = x*1.10
AP Mod(The heavier, "thicker" and a bigger vest will hinder your movement more)
Formula:
ROUND((((Weight+ArmorRating^0,75)*(Coverage/100)))/10)
Price (A stronger and a increase in cover will increase the price, divided by, degradation and the negative APmod which will lower the price)
Formula:
ROUND(((ArmorRating^1,8*Coverage^1,2)/(Degradation*(1+APmod)))*4)
Special Price (Merged special "class" armors like Recon, Technician etc...)
Standard Price * 2
Attachment Tweaks! - Patch 2.4.5Toggle SpoilerAttachment Tweaks!
I have...- ...added sniper scope attachment to alot of the weapons
- ...added battle scope attachment to alot of the weapons
- ...added AGOC scope attachment to alot of the weapons
- ...added folding stock to some one handed weapons
- ...added bipod to some weapons
- ...increased cost for sniper scope and sniper suppressor
Five New Weapons! - Patch 2.4.5Toggle SpoilerFive New Weapons!
Colt 1911 - Platinum Elite Edition
Sig P226 - Platinum Elite Edition
Kriss SMG - Military Color
Kriss SMG - Black Color
Kriss SMG - Black Color Short(gangsta) version
Two New Mines! - Patch 2.4.5
Shotgun Tweaks! - Patch 2.4.5Toggle SpoilerShotgun Tweaks!
Increased shotgun accuracy, changed shotgun accuracy modifier(divisior) from 3 to 0.6 (don't worry )
Increased shotgun range, changed shotgun range modifier(multiplier) from 0.5 to 0.85
Minor increased shotgun prices follows that, since they are variables in that equation. (a few %)
Enemy has access to all ammo types! - Patch 2.4.1 - [color:#CC0000]IMPORTANT, READ THIS IF YOU WILL MODIFY MY FILES![/color]Toggle SpoilerEnemy has access to all ammo types!
The Queens army will now use all the different ammo types for all the different calibers!
The Ammo choices is limited to 50, in the XML editor, however I increased that value using a text editor to 172.
IF you EDIT anything in this mod in the XML editor, as soon as you SAVE anything, it will overwrite the EnemyItemChoices.xml file and then it will revert back to it's limited 50 choices!
So make a backup of that file before you edit anything.
I wish someone could increase the max limit of choices beyond 50 in the XML editor!
Enemy drops all ammo types! - Patch 2.4.1Toggle SpoilerEnemy drops all ammo types!
The Queens army will now drop all the different ammo types for all the different calibers!
You don't have to play with "drop all feature" for this to work!
Added NEW FMJ Magazines for several calibers! FMJ IS NOT AP! - Patch 2.4 - [color:#FF0000]MAJOR FEATURE!!![/color] Toggle SpoilerAdded NEW FMJ Magazines for several calibers!
I have stated this alot before and made some fuzz about it, because it is just stupid. A FMJ is not the same as an AP round. Peroid! FMJ means full metal jacket, a soft bullet, often lead, totally covered with a tombac or brass jacket. First and foremost, to prevent lead residue in the barrel, and secondly, to prevent deformation prior to impact. Logic however will force you to admit that a soft material now covered in a harder material will also increase it's penetration capabilities. That is true. But it is still not and will not ever be, an ARMOR PIERCING bullet.
An armor piercing bullet is a hard bullet often made of solid tombac, brass, chopper, steel, tungsten etc. And sometimes covered with a jacket made out of another material. And here is the mistake, I think most people do. An AP round has often a FMJ(Full metal jacket)around it, but it is NOT the JACKET that makes the bullet an AP round, it is it's CORE!
This is the reason why I have made new FMJ magazines, like the SMG's they have both FMJ and AP types.
The new calibers with FMJ magazines are:
[list]
[*]5.45x39mm
[*]5.56x45mm
[*]7.62x51mm
[*]7.62x39mm
[*]5.7x28mm
[*]7.62x25mm
[*]7.62x54Rmm
[*].50 Beowulf (JSP = Jacketed Soft Point)
[*].300 WM
[*]7.92x57mm Mauser
[*]6.8x43mm SPC
[*].30 Carbine
[*]6x35mm
Calculated Ammo Prices! - Patch 2.4Toggle SpoilerCalculated Ammo Prices!
Ammo price has been calculated using this formula(for FMJ):
(((((Range(Tiles)+Accuracy)^0,5*(BaseDamage*BaseTumble))/(1+BasePenetration))*(ValueClass/5))/15)*(MagazineSize/(1+(MagazineSize/5000)))
then this multiplier:
AP = x4
HP = x2
Glaser = x3
AET = x5
LRN = x0,75
JHP = x1,8
JSP = x2,25
Match = x2,5
Tracer = x1,8
then if cold ammo:
Cold FMJ = 1,3 x FMJ value
Cold AP = 1,3 x AP Value
Cold HP = 1,3 x HP Value
Calculated Ammo box Capacity based on round volume! - Patch 2.4 |
Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270694]
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Wed, 19 January 2011 17:16 
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| Xardes |
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Messages:4
Registered:January 2011 |
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I was looking for my thought the my XLM file to add it myself because a .44 magnum does the same damage then a 9mm and with the same armor penetration value (facepalm).
I shoot guns myself and if someone shoot a .44 at the range you feel the shockwave in your gut. I am glad to see than I am not the only one who knows that damage of guns comes from the Ammunition not from a barrel ceases in steel plastics or wood.
if want need help give me a sign.
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Civilian
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270855]
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Fri, 21 January 2011 02:01
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Well well, im kinda done, it's all about testing actually. I have alot around me atm, so maybe I'll just release it for others to continue the testing. I have custom ammo types and some custom graphics, but nothing major that will make an outrage. I have added 5.56x45mm FMJ + graphic, and 7.62x39mm FMJ + graphic. Remember, AP is seperate(not FMJ) but they are there as well.
Yeah, it's all about the ammunition, well 90% or so. Gunpowder load, bullet weight etc.
A fancy gun won't save your ass, a capable ammunition will.
Well I have to find somewere to upload the files then I'll post a link.
But it's not 100% finished, some more ammotypes will be added and the ARMOURS are not balanced right just yet. But they work.
And the Cold ammo is not changed at all. But thats about it. Everything else should be fine.
I will continue the work when I got time over.
Take care
/MJOne
[Updated on: Fri, 21 January 2011 02:37] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270857]
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Fri, 21 January 2011 02:43
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Here is the download link, make backup of your old files, the CalcChart is in the Data-1.13 directory.
Enjoy!
Be aware though, some ammo magazines of the 5.56x45mm and the 7.62x39mm does not have FMJ ammo type yet, meaning, the game will spit out a different(or the next id, im not sure) ammotype. For example, if you use the 30 round clip FMJ in the SKS, and unload you get the 10 round HP COLD ammo.
Im working on this of course as fast as I can, but you can still use the ammo as normal, it only effects the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x39.
I play with these settings in the JA2_options file:
MELEE_DAMAGE_MODIFIER = 85
GUN_DAMAGE_MODIFIER = 85
Because of a bug you need to change both values or the gun damage is somehow stored in the melee modifier, I can't remember, to actually see a change in the gun-damage.
Well well, here it is:
I use the 1.13.3356 build 10 03 07 version.
MASAT <- WTF? - MOD Download
"We can name it later..." /John Sheppard
[Updated on: Fri, 21 January 2011 13:33] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271559]
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Fri, 28 January 2011 05:46
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Thumbing this bitch UP!
Now this is something I deem useful. Not only useful, I think I remember actually having nagged people and ranting about how far away from intuitive the gun values were. I've actually spent some time in JA2 trying to use big ass handguns, which always ended being pointless due to a .454 casull one-shot gun not even dealing significantly more damage than some high quality ACP pistol. Plus I always thought that 9mm slugs could destroy far more tissue than 5.56mm bullets. I know that the latter have triple the kinetic energy, but what good is it for when they just punch right through? I mean they can pierce trees. Why would they get entirely absorbed by a human body without ballistic protection? So the values always felt wrong. Assault rifles were too strong, rifles were superior to submachineguns and you'd only use SMGs if you wanted to stay silent.
That's why I think this could be a revolution. To me. And I don't care what other people think. =D
I only agree with those who were against making things more complicated on a certain point, which is that this ammo will never be entirely realistic. Flight paths are just nowhere near realistic, everything's built up on those isometric voxels and thus you can't create actual ballistics.
Nevermind though, I absolutely support this project, as long as it makes JA2 gun choices more intuitive. What I would want to ultimately see is:
Large caliber guns actually becoming kinda useful against weakly armored foes on close ranges.- Assault rifles becoming FAR LESS useful when compared to (!) aforementioned larger caliber guns on short ranges, only due to hard knockback with poor stopping power, while maintaining superiority on higher distances with fast moving, high energy bullets that pierce through armor like it's butter.
- Maybe AKs (Warsaw Pact 7.62x39mm ammo type guns) being a bit stronger while having less accuracy or range than they have without your changes. I felt that they were a bit too equal.
- 7.62mm NATO guns not ruling the entire game due to their huuuuge range and intense damage only. Dunno if anything will change about range and accuracy, but if it will, heck yeah!
- --> Therefore the H&K 417 16" not being superior to the 416 20" concerning every single value from range to damage and accuracy. It's an assault rifle on an M16 stock, how super amazing can it be only because it's got bigger rounds?
- The .50 Beowulf rifle NOT being a sniper rifle. I mean, it shoots a PISTOL round. This has always bothered me since the one thing that the gun has in JA2 is range. While the only thing that this gun actually sports is huge bloody stopping power on short range. Make it a one-shot takedown weapon for CQC and I'll kiss ye feet, mate!
Also, ammo icons are a good thing, I'd even ask for more high resolution ammo pics, however, please, in advance, make sure your pic looks good when it's really small, because the main goal of small icons is to immediately recognize the item you're looking for.
So far, I haven't tested the values or anything and I probably won't until this is some sort of a final version. I'm just lazy as hell, can't find enough time to excessively play the game anyway and I hate upgrading, patching and remembering what version I'm on. And once I'm in a game, I don't want anything to change unless I find something noteworthy that I think has to be changed. Like a bug. I hate bugs. =D
By the way, you said something about blunt trauma. How do your values feel right now? Do high energy impacts deal "blunt" damage despite not penetrating armour? This'd make shotgun type weapons far more useful on close ranges. I doubt it's possible, though. I think JA2 bullet calculations don't accept damage from the blast if the projectile has been entirely absorbed by the vest.
Oh and will changing values make sniper rifle (big ass guns') bullets penetrate targets and walls more often? I just seriously want to use an MG3 to ANNIHILATE an enemy hiding in a small room. From what I've read so far, 7.62x51mm NATO punches through almost 24cm (like 10 inches) of brick wall. I uh... I want that. I really do. Please, give a poor psychopath a chance to destroy virtual people behind virtual walls with a virtual gun while laughing like a maniac. Mum's proud of me. ^^
I heart your mod. Or your project, your oeuvre. Opus! And please, please, please, make it so outrageously overwhelming that it will ultimately get sucked into 1.13's trunk to be there forever.
LootFragg
Edit: Alright, I guess I might have been quite a bit too euphorical about the whole thing. I now doubt penetrating walls will be affected. Still am looking forward to seeing modified gun values with a .50AE actually dealing damage. Oi cheers.
[Updated on: Fri, 28 January 2011 08:49] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271742]
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Sat, 29 January 2011 11:38
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| Kellomies |
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Messages:50
Registered:October 2010 |
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LootFraggPlus I always thought that 9mm slugs could destroy far more tissue than 5.56mm bullets. I know that the latter have triple the kinetic energy, but what good is it for when they just punch right through? I mean they can pierce trees. Why would they get entirely absorbed by a human body without ballistic protection? Because the human body is largely liquid and the shockwave produced by the bullet does all kinds of nasty things to it; see the concept of hydrostatic shock and related for more. Plus a lot of the "light and fast" rounds are intentionally designed to become unstable in semi-liquid medium like flesh and do unpleasant things like start tumbling...
Also, bustin' bones that get into way.
The ones that tend to zip right through (more or less) are the actual AP rounds, which tend to be mostly or entirely composed of some very hard metal so as to punch through stuff in the way; but then when you need to turn to *those* the target is probably armoured enough that the alternative is pretty much causing bruises tops...
Quote:Assault rifles were too strong, rifles were superior to submachineguns and you'd only use SMGs if you wanted to stay silent.
...and this is a problem how exactly? Sounds more like very much an accurate enough representation of how it is in reality; the AR was pretty much the death knell of the SMG as a military weapon save for special purposes...Quote:- --> Therefore the H&K 417 16" not being superior to the 416 20" concerning every single value from range to damage and accuracy. It's an assault rifle on an M16 stock, how super amazing can it be only because it's got bigger rounds?
:confused:
...I don't really see what the platform has to do with the issue? Full-size rifle rounds beat the intermediates hands down when it comes to reach and power and by extension extended-range accuracy, period. Where they lose out is weight of both the round and the gun, and burst-fire controllability. Remember that the intermediates were developed because the full-sizes were found to be *excessively* powerful for standard infantry use, plus didn't quite play well with the need for a versatile selective-fire weapon the grunts could use equally for firefights at standard engagement distances and CQB in assault situations...
Quote:- The .50 Beowulf rifle NOT being a sniper rifle. I mean, it shoots a PISTOL round.
Wait what, how is *that* monster a "pistol round" beyond its .50AE ancestry? Not all that long-ranged by what I know of it though, I'll give you that.
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Corporal
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271863]
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Mon, 31 January 2011 10:43
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Hi Kellomies!
Kellomies"light and fast" rounds Okay, of course, different target "materials". I don't really know how a bullet behaves in human flesh when compared to solid stuff. Only thing I know is that we blew clean holes into a tree trunk (standard 5.56 FMJ), but of course, wood doesn't make the bullet tumble. I didn't imagine them to really slow down THAT much. Thanks.
Kellomiesan accurate enough representation of how it is in reality I doubt it. Large calibers drop further at high ranges but a submachinegun with stock and good sights is pretty accurate at average combat distance as well, far less of course, but not THAT far. If the aforementioned debate about fast projectiles penetrating through is invalid, the only one big reason I'd deem submachineguns more useful on closer ranges is the low recoil due to using pistol rounds instead of highly energetic rifle rounds.
I also admit I'm trying to balance out the game on an intuitive scale more than actually accepting the superiority of a certain gun type. I mean assault rifles really beat submachineguns in every area once ammo is available. I'd only use small SMGs (large automatic pistols) or backup guns like the P90 for self-defense purposes. Admittedly, most SMGs are mainly used as PDWs. But I'm actually talking about those near rifle-sized SMGs being cheap guns and simple M4 clones being the weapon of choice be it in close quarters, average or large distance. It just feels like I'm supposed to use ARs anyway and use MP5s, combat shottys, sticks and stones as cheap means to keep enemies off my arse until they get available.
To make this clear, I don't want ARs to be weak, which they aren't. In open area fights I want them to kill and maim, but if you're up close with a well-armored adversary, you basically have to auto-fire him until he passes out when using 9mm SMGs, whereas you can use single shots out of your 5.56mm gun to pop his head. SMGs should be somewhat more accurate due to their low knockback to compensate for this. Somehow. And since half a kilojoule of kinetic energy leaves some slight bruises even behind ballistic protection, lots of impacts should cause some damage. Blahblah.
KellomiesFull-size rifle rounds beat the intermediates hands down They've got a higher range of course, but a steadier drop as well. Wait, DID range influence accuracy if you don't exceed it? Thought it did, but I might have been misleaded here as well. It's been a while since I read HowDoesItWork. Let's say it FELT like high range guns were more accurate even on distances somewhere inside their max range. Due to their almost linear flight path up to 200m and a bit beyond, 5.56x45mm bullets are said to be more accurate than for example 7.62x51mm, which have a narrower ballistic arc. Plus huge ass recoil this means smaller calibers SHOULD be better unless we're talking about really high ranges. And even then, a shorter barrel usually means less muzzle velocity (unless the powder's critical expansion speed is reached) and smaller guns tend to sway a bit more. You know, if the 20"-barreled .223 gun is supposed to be a DMR, why not take a .308 instead if it is just plain better (except for mag size and ammo weight)? I agree that DAMAGE and PENETRATION should be better and a .223cal DMR should never compete with some Dragunov in long range firefights. But both values and feeling of the guns always taught me that I basically HAVE to use 7.62 guns due to their huge accuracy, range, damage and almost no disadvantages except for good ammo being quite rare. Any range, maybe a backup gun for silenced ops. Too powerful fits it right, I've heard (can't say for myself) that 7.62 NATO rounds were capable of dislocating shoulders if used improperly. They're almost 3 times as powerful as 5.56 NATO rounds thus being far harder to handle. I find it very hard to control a light machine gun even when being prone. It feels just wrong. That's all I'm saying. And it shouldn't.
Kellomieshow is *that* monster a "pistol round" Alright, that's exaggerated, it's a huge pistol round. But as you say, the pistol bullet isn't really capable of sustaining its flight path on higher distances, no matter how much power you put behind it. And it isn't supposed to as it was developed to fill the margin of an accurate closer combat rifle with both huge penetration and stopping power. The bullet doesn't fly far, accurately, but as long as it does it annihilates everything in its path, wake and line of sight while spitting fire and kicking people in the crotch. You want to take down anything and anybody in one shot (or more if the fellow hides behind something), but both long range combat and beginner friendliness are ignored. It's a hand cannon. So a .50 Beowulf is NOT a pistol round, sorry for being so inaccurate, but it's not a rifle round either as suggested by the game. How much range does it have? 45? 50? Add sights and play sniper.
So, Kellomies, you're absolutely right, I can't deny your arguments, really, but I still don't like the way things are/were (haven't tested it). The range of a gun is (not exclusively) influenced by its mere length, as a rule of thumb and not getting into detail with barrel lengths and calibers. Yes, I wouldn't use a 9x19 to combat somebody hiding 300m away, yes, I know ARs just punch through everything, but the gap feels just far too big. Even the shortest stubby ARs have far superior range only due to the ammo used. It feels so wrong. I'm a crybaby. =D
Cheers, SobFragg.
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271873]
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Mon, 31 January 2011 13:01
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| DepressivesBrot |
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Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009 |
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LootFragg Yes, I wouldn't use a 9x19 to combat somebody hiding 300m away, yes, I know ARs just punch through everything, but the gap feels just far too big. Even the shortest stubby ARs have far superior range only due to the ammo used. It feels so wrong. I'm a crybaby. =D
Huh?
The SMGs all range between 16 and 23 (eliminating the odd ones, Magpul PDR with 27 and Spectre with 12). Top: P90 and AUG Para with 23
The Sub-Carbines begin at 23 (on par with the best SMGs) with the SCAR WP CQC, 24 for the AKMSU, 25 for Vikr SR-3 and Micro Galil.
So, I don't see that huge gap, it's a steady transition, just without overlap between SMG and carbine.
It might feel that way though as you are way more often out of range with a gun that doesn't even reach sight range so that 'every tile matters' kicks in. Whereas nobody really cares if a SR has 100 or 110 or an AR hast 40 or 45 if you don't use scopes beyond ACOG.
PS: Values are based on the excel table for rev 1203 on Dieters wiki.
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285257]
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Fri, 01 July 2011 22:46
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| Blue_Fox |
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Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands |
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Yes i know, have that Spreadsheet.
I try to find a way to make new ammo, without changing weapons damage values.
*Edit
Quote:Caliber ----- DMG ----- Penetration(Lower=Better) -- Afterarmor DMG (Different in different calibers to simulate caliber and type specific DMG)
9mm FMJ ----- 14 --------- 1,24 ------------------------- 0,78 ---------> 11 (After armor DMG multiplier)
.45 FMJ ------- 15 --------- 1,26 ------------------------- 0,92 ---------> 14 (After armor DMG multiplier)
.357 FMJ ------ 21 --------- 0,96 ------------------------- 0,96 ---------> 21 (After armor DMG multiplier)
5.56 AP -------- 39 --------- 0,24 ------------------------- 0,75 ---------> 30 (After armor DMG multiplier)
He used the gun damage.
***
Example of the 12.7mm
Armour Piercing: 5.5
4
22
Bullet Tumble: 3.1
22
7
Pre-Impact Explosion: 1.1
10
9
Here some values when use the Mulitpier/Divisor: Have till 8.0
0.3 3-1
0.4 26-11
0.5 2-1
0.7 3-2
0.8 4-3
0.9 16-15
1.0 1-1
1.1 12-13
1.2 11-13
[Updated on: Fri, 01 July 2011 23:00] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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First Sergeant
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