Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » MAM 2.4.5 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values - RELEASE!
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286110]
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Sun, 10 July 2011 15:37  
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 MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Hi everyone!
First off I would like to thanks everyone who has an interest in this mod and for all your comments.
At first, I didn't think it would go noticed. 
Well im am not gone, but busy... I have several interests in this life and JA2 is one of them.
I have recently made a light weight mod, that changes all the DAMAGE and RANGE values of all weapons to go with the "4552" release. Again I use formulas to calculate those values.
I made some thinking... and I must admit that I have missed some vital things in my reasoning in the previous mod. For instant, I didn't really pay attention to the subject of energy transfer when a bullet hits its target.
And some of the values in the ammo part of it, where abit high. But when it comes to DAMAGE, I will not change my mindset, but tweaking is always appreciated. There is a huge difference being shot by a 9mm and a 7.62x51mm, if you don't think so, research and look at the numbers.
And now some ppl will think in these terms...
"Gameplay vs Realism"
Without this mod you have more gameplay then realism, when it comes to the weapons. With this mod atleast I think, it's more accurate to real life. Or atleast my reality. So you have a choice already.
I am not impossible to reason with, but the disaster I found with the "4452" build is just ignorance playing it's finest tune. Look at the damage values of the 9mm, .44 Magnum, 5.56x45mm and the 7.62x54R. I felt something must be done...
I just completetd a lightweight weapons mod, that as I said earlier change the DAMAGE and RANGE of each weapon. Everything is calculated using known formulas and some tiny tweak values.
It will be released when im done testing it.
At the moment I had a computer crash and burn on me, so I am currently on my 7-8 year old backup.
Thanks for finding and killing that bug I created, im sorry for that!
Have a nice day!
I'll be back!
[Updated on: Sun, 10 July 2011 15:38] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286135]
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Sun, 10 July 2011 19:22
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Well, I might be able to figure it out... ...and on the other hand, maybe it is time to start a new...
I will test my new mod abit more, and tweak some values...
There is alot of research going into such a project and to get the formulas playable from the smallest caliber to the biggest is a tad work.
I wonder if I also should change the prices to go along with the damage, especially the bigger calibers.
Let's say a MP5 would cost 2500$, and a Colt M4 would cost 5000$, and a FN FAL 10000$, and the sniper rifles and machineguns would cost 30-50000$, but all depending on caliber/damage.
This is not that realistic but it can even out the gameplay aspect of it, otherwise it would be to easy just to buy FN FAL's instead of M4's to everyone and butcher away...
I am not sure where the prices in ja 1.13 derives from... are they "real-life" market prices?
Because that would be an alternative, to look up real life prices and use them. But again, it might be smarter to go with the gameplay approach...I'll give it a thought.
Here in Sweden, it's kinda hard to own guns, so I myself do not own any weapon, but I know a great deal about them, except prices. 
Well that's it for now...
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286318]
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Tue, 12 July 2011 05:10
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| Off_Topic |
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Messages:999
Registered:January 2009 |
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Just passing through, but i'd say you'd need to take in a lot more variables into how much a weapon should cost apart from just gun performance. Off the top of my head, here are a few that should also factor:
Ammo Type available, Possible attachments, coolness, Enemy guns choice, available in BR or other inventories, effect on game play, loudness, repair ease, built in attachments to name but a few.
You could maybe give a modifier to everything, so that you can build a structured pricing system.
A very rough example would be:
.38
Base price x (have base price for pistols)
Revolver + $50 Semi-Auto +$100
Can take Scope +$100 Nonscoped -
Coolness lvl 1=+$100, 2=+$200, 3=+$400
Common Calibre -5% Rare Calibre +10%
Large Calibre =+$X (or a specific price modifier for every ammo type)
Can take Match sights +$50 etc...
Range for pistols, +$200 for every point over 10
You get the idea, if you have a table that you can "build" a price from, it will have structure and guns would nearly price themselves if you set it up properly.
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286347]
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Tue, 12 July 2011 14:21
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Hi Off_Topic! Thanks for all your ideas, I'll keep them in mind when I come to that. Right now Im testing the weapons ingame.
Yeah I will go with a calc chart on prices, I did this on my Fallout 4 New Vegas weapon mod. Kinda similar to this mod, I have a calc chart for that somewhere as well. It worked out fine, so that shouldn't really be a problem.... maybe.... 
It's all about tweaking really. But as I stated earlier, I am pretty sure I will make the prices a gameplay thing, kinda. You are going to have to save money for that precious sniper rifle. Otherwise the game will become too easy.
And Im currently fiddeling with the enemy choice of equipment and their progression, trying different approaches. If you want to be real boring and go with the army standardization like:
2-4 x Sidearm's
2-4 x SMG's
2 x Shotgun's
3 x Rifles
3 x Assault Rifles
2 x MG's
1-2 x Sniper rifles
and so on... ...but that might just get boring in the long run and ruine the flavours...
However, you can make tripple(or so) inputs for the standard weapons and add just one input for some rare items. Then you will see a army standard, but also see glimpses of hired enemy mercenaries in the queens army.
...or you can go with the current "system", anything goes... I will give this some thought.
And then there is the case of drop all items. To me, drop all items is a given, since a hired mercenary army will go along with what it can harvest from the oppressor. Often that's how rebellions are faught. The sell prices in the strategic view will have to compensate for that of course. But not being able to search a dead enemy body for his equipment, is to me, just wierd.
So im thinking of sticking some hidden/well guarded army weaponcaches in wilderness. For ppl to find and get some boost. No treasure hunt here! Trust me! Just a paint boost.
Im thinking like this:
The army is alot about standardization. So using the same ammotype for sidearm's and SMG's, to me, makes sense. And maybe the same ammo for rifles and assualt rifles, and maybe even the MG's. Or let the sniper rifles and the MG share the same ammo. The Queens army have mediocer equipment in the beginning, but as it grows more desperate, she buys more "hightech" guns. Makes sense right?
If and I stress IF, I go with the all boring army approach(I will atleast test it), the player will first be somewhat inferior to the queens army but then eventually get on an even level(weapon wise) and after collecting and selling alot of captured weapons with the "new" price system im working on, you will order better weapons from BR which are far more expensive now then they where before.
So you will get better equipment then the queens army, atleast until she grows desperate. And Im thinking that she well get desperate(different lvls) at around 50/60% to 90/100% of the game progress.
To counterbalance the drop all feature, let's say you need to sell 50-100xSkorpions at the strategic view to affoard a SKS rifle, or something like that. That should even out the drop all feature. CHEAP LOCALS!
Something like that... But I have to test the new prices to go along with the sell price.
But I will ponder on this a alot more... Any ideas are welcomed!
Have a good one!
[Updated on: Tue, 12 July 2011 15:43] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286371]
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Tue, 12 July 2011 16:59
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Gun Cost
Remember prices in reality depend on economy, not only on gun quality. Do not make in-game prices proportional to real life prices. Off_Topic's suggestion was good.
Enemy Gun Choices
Sounds somewhat familiar. Buns has created an alternate weapon progression mod. He had the army standardization approach as well. However, his mod focused on replacing the default coolness with the guns' development era so you'd start with World War weaponry and end up with modern armament. He ended up with his World War II mod. However, when talking about balancing enemy gear I think he's the one to talk to. Just saying.
Remember that every better gun the enemy occasionally drops will find permanent use in your squads. That's why I like the approach of distributing average guns to enemies and having to ship in uber gear from BR's for high cost.
Advanced Bobby?
Concerning BR's, - at some point in the past I have already discussed this idea with someone in some thread, whatever - I guess it could need some enhancement. I've been playing Team Fortress 2 since it has been released as Free2Play and I find the implemented shop intriguing. There are sales, special offers and bundles and I've pretty much already had that in mind for BR's. I don't wish to discuss this further and highjack the thread. But it would be great if Bobby Ray offered random daily specials like "buy three AK-47, get one free". If these offers depend on coolness or similar values so simpler weapons have a higher chance to be on sale while advanced armory would have to be bought one by one for the full price, you could statistically decrease the weapon cost for guns you'd want the player to have without having to increase the cost gap between good and very good gear too much. Also, you would discourage elite gear hording - like skipping over all the medium guns and buying the best AR you can find.
Gun Stats
If you're about to change weapon stats, at least a bit, you should probably focus on AP costs as these are a number one determining factor when deciding whether a gun is good or bad. I keep repeating this, I know. Realistic ammo properties are good but a hard-hitting .223 gets overpowered when fired accurately from a gun you can ready 3 times faster than the average rifle or WWII SMG only because it's got the Colt trademark carved in it.
MJOneneed to sell 50-100xSkorpions at the strategic view to affoard a SKS rifle, or something like that Rather something like that. An SKS carbine is supposed to be a solid, yet low-tier weapon, supporting only semi-automatic fire from a small magazine and being awfully hard to wield in JA2.
And by the way, work with Sandro as well. Or get your mod trunk'd asap. You rule.
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286479]
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Thu, 14 July 2011 01:06
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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@LootFragg
Im not sure what you mean by "make a gun ranking depending on randomly picked real life values"...
But if you mean the stats then:
I calculate all my values based on, bullet speed, bullet width, bullet weight, bullet composition(core and jacket, materials like tombac, brass, steel, tungsten etc...), bullet tip shape, bullet type and so on... if you want to blame something, blame my formulas.
If it is the prices:
What's the big fuzz, if it is a problem then I will release one with standard prices and one with modded. Big deal... *shrugs*
Let's keep it cool, and talk to each other...
Im currently working on a new version of it anyways, with more emphasis on energy transfer.(Bullet-to-target)
That being said, in the current("4552")release, the damage values for the different calibers is a mess, it's actually bizarre. It's so bizarre that I just can't play it, I HAVE to mod it, for my own sake, and im sharing it to those who want it...However Im open for discussion... But if that's the case, I beg of you to get your facts straight first, because I don't have much time arguing the obvious!
"I don't think there's any significant difference between getting your hand pierced by a 9x19 or 12.7x99"
You are kidding me, right? And the hand is a bad example, torso is more relevant...
Go online and watch some wound pictures...
Do you know that wearing body armour against and actually stopping a smaller caliber then the 50 cal, like the 7.62x51mm NATO round, even then it still has the potential of killing you, the blunt trauma itself can make the heart stop.
And btw, you can dismember limbs with the 50 cal.
So there is a difference. Period.
However, Im all for gameplay/"simulation"... and I will walk a fine line here.
No offence here but, I mean, if you don't like it, don't play it. It is as easy as that.
Have a nice day!
@Cell
Howdy!
Have a nice day!
[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2011 14:43] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286525]
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Thu, 14 July 2011 15:30
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Nice video Cell, too bad they didn't change the ballistic gel for every shot though... However, you could still see the difference in pressure being generated.
There is another thing that is somewhat bothering me.
The "1/10" translation of ranges. 1 tile = 10 meters.
Maybe it was for gameplay purposes(stealth, melee, etc) and the fact that computer power(number of objects on screen) and resolution(640x480, 800x600) was not that high when the game was made.
But if 1 tile = 10 meters, then I can run several hundred meters per turn. Also, the new NCTH system doesn't really seem to acknowledge this fact. That's why I have toned down the accuracy atm when im playing. Let's say you shoot from a distance of 10 tiles(100 meters) and you hit almost every shot with a sidearm from that distance ingame, im not sure you would do the same in RL.
So... The weapons and the spotting distance(13*2 = 26 tiles = 260 meter) speak one "language", all the ranges divided by 10, but the NCTH and everything else, moving, spotting, and the graphical presentation, (size of objects and their relation to one another), seems to speak another(1 tile = 1-2 meters).
But having sidearms firing effectively at ranges around 50 tiles(50 meters), will ruine the whole show. It's too bad we don't have tactical maps that are 320*320-512*512 tiles or something like that. But again that would probarly make melee almost obsolete. And you would only attack at night...maybe...
However I like the new-CTH system, but I have tweaked it to serve the weapons. That means lower accuracy and longer firefights. Remember 5 tiles is actually 50 meters("weapon-wise"). Which feels very strange when you play it. But that's the weapon mechanics atm. Im thinking of doing something about it, or atleast play around with it and see if I can come up with some solution, and try to blend the two "languages" together.
Something like, doubling the weapon ranges and the spotting ranges, but also increase the cover % of objects on screen. I always push this one up to about 75%. And I also make it harder to spot a person in prone position. I wonder, is the enemy AI dynamic in it's prefered range of engagement, or will it always move to a certain distance? I will play around with this and pass a judgement on the results.
Side issue though. I have alot to do with the weapons already...
Im currently making new formulas for Damage, Tumbling and Armor penetration. I've done the two first and it looks promising. Since I now know alot more about energy transfer you will see somewhat less damage difference in this version when shooting at unprotected flesh. However, nothing dramatic. We are taking 5-10% less difference(compared to the older version, not 5-10% difference in between the wepons ) or something like that. BUT. Tumbling values are more accurate this time and armor penetration will be a key factor. Therefore I will probarly tweak the armor values accordingly. But I have to make some research.
That's all for this time!
Kawabunga!
[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2011 15:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286794]
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Sun, 17 July 2011 14:25
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Well im not sure what can have gone wrong here, if Cell has saved my mod, only once in the XML editor. Then I know for a fact that something bad will have happend. Cell does'nt probarly know this, but the enemyammodrop.xml can only have 50 entries in the xml editor. I needed alot more, that's why I worked with that file outside the editor. If anyone has saved my work in the xml editor, there will have been problem.
I haven't been around here for a great while, so I haven't been able to fix bugs and so on, and for that I am sorry and I apologize. But life forced me to be elsewhere.
However now Im back, and im 70-80% done with MAM 2.0, so If you wait a little longer, I will have something testable released very very soon.
Look into the, EnemyAmmoDrops.xml, but then you have to manually add more ammotypes outside the editor.
Can anyone fix that? So we can have more then 50 entries in the xml editor, because the game can handle it.
Anyways Im sorry for that, and I don't blame Cell or anyone else for it. It's just the nature of the editor. :/
[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2011 14:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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