Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » MAM 2.4.5 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values - RELEASE!
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286458] Wed, 13 July 2011 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg

 
Messages:344
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Cell
12.7x99 can pierce 35mm steel or something like that.
9x19mm can pierce hands. What's your point? Do you want to get shot in the hand from a 9mm pistol? "Whoo, I was scared for a second but now I realize it's only a 9mm bullet. Thought it might have been a .50 BMG. THAT would've hurt. I'll just put a plaster on the wound and I'm done." Good thing 9mm handguns don't kill.

It's not my mod so I shouldn't care anyway. But it creeps me out if you're trying to make a gun ranking depending on randomly picked real life values. Pistol < SMG < AR < DMR < Sniper Rifle < Anti-Material Rifle < Epic Minigun of Hazard +1? Guns usually fit various tactical uses and especially in games there should be exaggerated emphasis on choosing the right gun for the right situation blah blah. Anyway. Also, Brot is right, large calibre rifles do not penetrate battle tank armor.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286476] Thu, 14 July 2011 00:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286479] Thu, 14 July 2011 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
@LootFragg

Im not sure what you mean by "make a gun ranking depending on randomly picked real life values"...

But if you mean the stats then:
I calculate all my values based on, bullet speed, bullet width, bullet weight, bullet composition(core and jacket, materials like tombac, brass, steel, tungsten etc...), bullet tip shape, bullet type and so on... if you want to blame something, blame my formulas.

If it is the prices:
What's the big fuzz, if it is a problem then I will release one with standard prices and one with modded. Big deal... *shrugs*

Let's keep it cool, and talk to each other...

Im currently working on a new version of it anyways, with more emphasis on energy transfer.(Bullet-to-target)

That being said, in the current("4552")release, the damage values for the different calibers is a mess, it's actually bizarre. It's so bizarre that I just can't play it, I HAVE to mod it, for my own sake, and im sharing it to those who want it...However Im open for discussion... But if that's the case, I beg of you to get your facts straight first, because I don't have much time arguing the obvious!

"I don't think there's any significant difference between getting your hand pierced by a 9x19 or 12.7x99"

You are kidding me, right? And the hand is a bad example, torso is more relevant...
Go online and watch some wound pictures...

Do you know that wearing body armour against and actually stopping a smaller caliber then the 50 cal, like the 7.62x51mm NATO round, even then it still has the potential of killing you, the blunt trauma itself can make the heart stop.

And btw, you can dismember limbs with the 50 cal.
So there is a difference. Period.

However, Im all for gameplay/"simulation"... and I will walk a fine line here.
No offence here but, I mean, if you don't like it, don't play it. It is as easy as that.

Have a nice day!

@Cell

Howdy!
Have a nice day!




[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2011 14:43] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286481] Thu, 14 July 2011 02:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286485] Thu, 14 July 2011 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
@Cell I don't Smile Nasty scene Smile
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286512] Thu, 14 July 2011 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286525] Thu, 14 July 2011 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Nice video Cell, too bad they didn't change the ballistic gel for every shot though... However, you could still see the difference in pressure being generated.

There is another thing that is somewhat bothering me.

The "1/10" translation of ranges. 1 tile = 10 meters.

Maybe it was for gameplay purposes(stealth, melee, etc) and the fact that computer power(number of objects on screen) and resolution(640x480, 800x600) was not that high when the game was made.

But if 1 tile = 10 meters, then I can run several hundred meters per turn. Also, the new NCTH system doesn't really seem to acknowledge this fact. That's why I have toned down the accuracy atm when im playing. Let's say you shoot from a distance of 10 tiles(100 meters) and you hit almost every shot with a sidearm from that distance ingame, im not sure you would do the same in RL.

So... The weapons and the spotting distance(13*2 = 26 tiles = 260 meter) speak one "language", all the ranges divided by 10, but the NCTH and everything else, moving, spotting, and the graphical presentation, (size of objects and their relation to one another), seems to speak another(1 tile = 1-2 meters).

But having sidearms firing effectively at ranges around 50 tiles(50 meters), will ruine the whole show. It's too bad we don't have tactical maps that are 320*320-512*512 tiles or something like that. Wink But again that would probarly make melee almost obsolete. And you would only attack at night...maybe...

However I like the new-CTH system, but I have tweaked it to serve the weapons. That means lower accuracy and longer firefights. Remember 5 tiles is actually 50 meters("weapon-wise"). Which feels very strange when you play it. But that's the weapon mechanics atm. Im thinking of doing something about it, or atleast play around with it and see if I can come up with some solution, and try to blend the two "languages" together.

Something like, doubling the weapon ranges and the spotting ranges, but also increase the cover % of objects on screen. I always push this one up to about 75%. And I also make it harder to spot a person in prone position. I wonder, is the enemy AI dynamic in it's prefered range of engagement, or will it always move to a certain distance? I will play around with this and pass a judgement on the results.

Side issue though. I have alot to do with the weapons already...
Im currently making new formulas for Damage, Tumbling and Armor penetration. I've done the two first and it looks promising. Since I now know alot more about energy transfer you will see somewhat less damage difference in this version when shooting at unprotected flesh. However, nothing dramatic. We are taking 5-10% less difference(compared to the older version, not 5-10% difference in between the wepons Smile ) or something like that. BUT. Tumbling values are more accurate this time and armor penetration will be a key factor. Therefore I will probarly tweak the armor values accordingly. But I have to make some research.

That's all for this time!

Kawabunga!

[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2011 15:36] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286529] Thu, 14 July 2011 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286533] Thu, 14 July 2011 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
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Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Hehe yeah Smile Well alrighty, I'll put it on hold then. Im currently fiddeling with the tumbling values and I think this will be great!

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286542] Thu, 14 July 2011 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg

 
Messages:344
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Can't really add anything. The Jackal. Absolutely. Like I'm surprised you don't even bother thinking about the entire JA2 world being a hundred percent flat when talking about increasing gun ranges. Anyway, I'll just remove this from my watched topics and leave you guys to action movies.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286544] Thu, 14 July 2011 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286546] Thu, 14 July 2011 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286556] Thu, 14 July 2011 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
@LootFragg Hmmm... well... If your comin in here guns blazing, be prepared to get shot at... Have you even gone through my formulas in my calc chart? I realize everyone has his own idea about gameplay/reality... and I respect that... But this is my take on it, and you don't have to like it... there are other mods... sorry you took it that way though... :-/

@Cell When it comes to the tumbling(damage after armor) multiplier im thinking of doing that calculation outside the game, in my calc chart, otherwise the player could get confused, since the stated weapon damage is not actually the real damage.

For instance:

The Ak-107(5.45x39mm) will have a stated damage of 29, but will actually only do 21 in damage with the tumbling multiplier applied. You need armor rating of above 60 to neglect all damage from this round.

The Groza OC-14-4A-01(9x39mm) will have a stated damage of 27 but actually to 34 in damage with the tumbling multiplier applied. You need armor rating of above 40 to neglect all damage from this round.

So you can see that we have an intresting dynamic going here.

Also remember that I will probarly overhaul the armor ratings.

So to skip all the confusion where the player has to multiply the tumbling value manually to get the actual damage, im thinking of calculate that into the stated damage. But I have to review the JA2 bullet hit formulas first. It was sometime since I did some fieldwork, and I forget pretty fast. Smile

I'll be back...

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286693] Sat, 16 July 2011 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286791] Sun, 17 July 2011 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
elenhil

 
Messages:68
Registered:June 2008
Sorry if it's misaddressed. I'm using Cell's version of your mod, and almost all the ammo enemies drop is AP only. Which XML file is responsible for that?
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286794] Sun, 17 July 2011 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Well im not sure what can have gone wrong here, if Cell has saved my mod, only once in the XML editor. Then I know for a fact that something bad will have happend. Cell does'nt probarly know this, but the enemyammodrop.xml can only have 50 entries in the xml editor. I needed alot more, that's why I worked with that file outside the editor. If anyone has saved my work in the xml editor, there will have been problem.

I haven't been around here for a great while, so I haven't been able to fix bugs and so on, and for that I am sorry and I apologize. But life forced me to be elsewhere.

However now Im back, and im 70-80% done with MAM 2.0, so If you wait a little longer, I will have something testable released very very soon.

Look into the, EnemyAmmoDrops.xml, but then you have to manually add more ammotypes outside the editor.
Can anyone fix that? So we can have more then 50 entries in the xml editor, because the game can handle it.

Anyways Im sorry for that, and I don't blame Cell or anyone else for it. It's just the nature of the editor. :/

[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2011 14:28] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286802] Sun, 17 July 2011 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
elenhil

 
Messages:68
Registered:June 2008
Actually, his EnemyAmmoDrops.xml looks OK, it has 121 entries.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286805] Sun, 17 July 2011 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Aaah that's great! Well I have to look into it, but as I said, MAM 2.0 is glowing red hot and is soon to be released so my time is limited atm... Can be the ammo types file, the Standard Issue thingy. In the xml editor

Data--->Ammo--->Types

And check the checkboxes under "Std. Issue"

That's all I can think of right now....

Let me know what ya find!
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286824] Sun, 17 July 2011 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
2.0 makes my mouth water. The drool, it just won't stop!
So yeah, looking forward to it. Smile

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #286968] Tue, 19 July 2011 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Thank you Slax! Smile

Well im working as hard as time allows me, right now im in the testing phase...
MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287402] Sat, 23 July 2011 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tobias

 
Messages:33
Registered:July 2006
Location: Munich, GERMANY
Great Job MJOne!

You just did, for what I had the idea back in 2007 ... Wink

The only thing I know about computers is the on/off button (power switch).

Greetings from Munich, Germany! :super:
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287412] Sat, 23 July 2011 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:592
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Is it possible to use the Ammo values and with specific range.
What's the maximum damage a bullet can do on specific ranges.
Say 600 meters, but the target is 650 meters, is it possible to make calculation about that and armour?
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287417] Sat, 23 July 2011 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287418] Sat, 23 July 2011 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:592
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
No, the opposite.

When you throw a rock to someone close to use or someone at a distane from 20 meters.
What hurts more?

Bullets ,Ammo have a maximum range for say pentrate Armour.
So if a bullter has a range of 40 meters AP, but the target is 50 meters with Armour, how much damage does that bullet then?
Does the bullet pentrate the armour?

[Updated on: Sat, 23 July 2011 20:22] by Moderator

Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287420] Sat, 23 July 2011 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287448] Sat, 23 July 2011 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287449] Sat, 23 July 2011 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:592
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
I don't know much about weight & Muzzle energy, but i assume the farder (or furder) the bullet has to travel, the more energy it needs.

[Updated on: Sat, 23 July 2011 22:31] by Moderator

Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287450] Sat, 23 July 2011 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287493] Sun, 24 July 2011 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
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Location: Sweden
I will fix the tracer bug asap! I don't have any problems with the magazines loading or unloading... Can anyone else confirm this? ATM, the army only use AP and FMJ... that will change... but there shouldn't be any problems unloading ammo... hmmm.... weird...
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287494] Sun, 24 July 2011 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
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Tracer effect should work now! Thanks for all the feedback!
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287502] Sun, 24 July 2011 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
It is VERY IMPORTANT that you start A NEW CAMPAIGN! Sorry for caps... Wink
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287506] Sun, 24 July 2011 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Quote:

E = Energy, Joules
D = Bullet width, millimeters
L = Bullet length, millimeters
W = Bullet weight, grams
S = Bullet speed, meter/second
P = Number of pellets, fired at the same time
A = Aero Index(shape of the bullet, higher = sharper)


LEADSWAP! Very Happy
Well, almost.

Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287508] Sun, 24 July 2011 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Haha! Smile

I didn't notice that... Wink
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287509] Sun, 24 July 2011 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287514] Sun, 24 July 2011 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
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I will look into it... I am currently tuning the price formula! Smile

How much money do you guys estimate to have at 50-75% of the game progress?
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287517] Sun, 24 July 2011 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287526] Sun, 24 July 2011 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock

 
Messages:738
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Location: Estonia,Tallinn
Never version is up!

2.1!
Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287531] Mon, 25 July 2011 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
HOPS!

I think I found a pesky value, prices are caped at a binary number, 65536... 65536/64 = 1024 ... so the weapons that exceed this value will go around and start from zero...

So if you have a weapon that cost 70000 it will show: 70000-65536 = 4464 what a bummer...

I have to rework the price system tomorrow... sorry for that!

[Updated on: Mon, 25 July 2011 01:25] by Moderator

Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287533] Mon, 25 July 2011 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: MAM 2.0 by MJOne[message #287540] Mon, 25 July 2011 04:24 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
MJOne

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
I will have a look at the equipment, I can't say anything for sure there as of yet.

That's great! Smile


I wonder if anyone in here knows how to change the price binary that is capped at 65536?


If your price shows zero, then re-download... you might have downloaded when I was in-between updates.
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