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What do you think of tank characters?[message #269236] Sun, 02 January 2011 03:48 Go to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Ive always been a fan of medium armored characters who fight from a distance and only take one for the team every once in a while ; however, that style of play has gotten boring for me. Since then I have been testing EOD armor for a "tank" character who takes on all the attention and gets smashed with firepower. Against pistols and rifles I have found that EOD protects almost perfectly (only take 2-5 damage). Do you think this is a good character type to have or is it just a novelty?
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269243] Sun, 02 January 2011 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1558
Registered:December 2008
I am not sure but I believe EOD won't help against explosions, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Also no armor protects against knives. For example when you have a heavy armored elite and can't hurt them with a gun (or want to steal their weapon), you shoot HP ammo at them and then kife them when they are on the ground.

Oh, one more thing, armor has a coverage value, so it should be possible to get a "lucky" shot which completely bypasses the armor and does full damage.

[Updated on: Sun, 02 January 2011 13:23] by Moderator



Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269268] Mon, 03 January 2011 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Dieter
I am not sure but I believe EOD won't help against explosions, someone correct me if I am wrong.

I am pretty sure it does.

Quote:


Oh, one more thing, armor has a coverage value, so it should be possible to get a "lucky" shot which completely bypasses the armor and does full damage.


EOD is 99% coverage, I only got one lucky shot out of 160 while testing the armor.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269287] Mon, 03 January 2011 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nollan

 
Messages:112
Registered:July 2006
Location: Le Su
Actually, I never use (that) heavy armor. The first time I encountered EOD-armor I was thrilled but then I realised things got too easy and boring when my whole team could just shrug off the odd shot that him them. I get the point of a tank, but it's not very funny gameplay-wise as well as unrealistic even in JA2-terms.

Also, what to do when the tank gets the wind knocked out of him (which should happen before he gets hurt) and the enemy charges with knives?
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269292] Mon, 03 January 2011 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Strictly Sci-Fi
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269303] Mon, 03 January 2011 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
OK, if you like the game that way - I won't.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Aviano_bomb_suit.jpg/220px-Aviano_bomb_suit.jpg
I don't think that any sane soldier would wear this kind of stuff in combat. It should drain your agility by at least some 30%, should prevent you from jumping over fences, getting on roofs, or make other fast manouvers.

[Updated on: Mon, 03 January 2011 17:39] by Moderator

Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269304] Mon, 03 January 2011 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
His hands are not protected. His Achilles heel is his hands. If he has them protected, what use is he? He will not be able to fire a rifle.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269306] Mon, 03 January 2011 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Obviously I am not planning on letting the tank run out by himself but I was wondering if I could make a melee only character this way for the fun of it (or at least like a shotgun guy who fights by day). I dunno something more fun than a rifleman/machine gunner

Quote:

Also, what to do when the tank gets the wind knocked out of him (which should happen before he gets hurt) and the enemy charges with knives?

lol ill think of something so far I just want to see if there's any practicality in it.

[Updated on: Mon, 03 January 2011 20:06] by Moderator

Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269307] Mon, 03 January 2011 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3395
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
ever seen how that works irl? the done these suit as close to the bomb as possible - happy fighting in them, even npc-protections are more comfortable
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269324] Tue, 04 January 2011 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
MikeJahn
I was wondering if I could make a melee only character this way for the fun of it
You mean something like a Terminator who is immune against bullets and is marching through a hail of fire to kill with bare hands? No, this wouldn't work for the already named reason: the loss of stamina from all those hits would make him collapse before he would be able to reach the enemy. He would most likely end up inconcious between the lines. Things even get worse when taking surpression into account.


Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269327] Tue, 04 January 2011 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Although I haven't tested EOD myself yet, I somehow doubt its resistance to sustained fire with, say, 7.62x51mm AP bullets. And depending on the enemy gun choices, don't even get me started on stuff like 9x39mm, 5.7x28mm, 4.6x30mm or 4.7 caseless. Or the heavy sniper calibers like .338 Lapua and up, those all come standard in AP.

So basically you can choose between early game (get the suit from awesome BR?) where you'll collapse unconscious from all the light HP or Ball rounds doing no damage but draining your stamina, and late game where the enemy fields weapons that'll shred EOD with the second burst.
Mid game? Would just be a combination of the two. Fast firing 5.56x45mm ARs and their Russian counterparts with a good chance to hit you with dozens of rounds that eventually can penetrate due to mostly being AP and otherwise the known effect on stamina.
And don't even think about turning on suppression.


Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269328] Tue, 04 January 2011 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
Due to the usage of those heavy calibers, already starting with the realy common 7.62 NATO, in combination with suppression, most XL armour is somewhat pointless to have.

Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269336] Tue, 04 January 2011 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1558
Registered:December 2008
Just checked Items.xml for an older WF 1.13 install, the only items with the FlakJacket XML tag, which reduces the amount of damage from explosions, are the various flak jackets in the game, e.g. regular, coated, treated. To the best of my knowledge all other armor does not protect against explosions. (Which makes me think maybe someone should add the FlakJacket tag to EOD since the armor was made to protect against explosions).

In any case I occasionally wear EOD in Demise of Man, however all the enemy has to do is use heavy auto fire to wear down the armor until the chance of penetration increases with the reduction of the armor status before they start making damage to my merc - and they usually end up killing the guy with sufficiently sustained auto fire. (In DOM most energy weapons fire 30+ shots per round with very little damage, this is how they implemented these type of weapons, so I know exactly how this works.)

From my experience you are better off wearing coated/treated Spectra or Dyneema with a ceramic plate. As a matter of fact, the ceramic plate makes the most difference. It "feels" like the plate gives the soldier another chance to check if armor penetration occurs. Having a 100% status plate gives you a half/half chance that the guy will survive a full auto attack, even though your plate will be less than 30% and the armor will be severely damaged afterward, however you might make it out alive.


Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269348] Tue, 04 January 2011 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
Yes, plates do make a difference. On the other hand, because of the heavy weight of armour + plates I rather tend to reduce armor and go for more camo instead. I find that leggings are completely obsolete. Wearing helmets usually isn't needed either: the enemy seems not to be deliberatly aiming for headshots as long as he is able to aim for the chest instead (that is situations when you are not behind sandbacks or other solid cover). The only occasions of head-wounds I recall since dropping helmets were of this kind when shooting from behind sandbacks, and some rare incidents with HE grenades that caused damage to heads.

Heavy calibers go clear through most armours. You are not instantly killed when being hit by a FN FAL while wearing kevlar - but aren't either if wearing a camo shirt instead. Another thing is shots by-passing worn armour, such as the merc being seriously wounded with stat losses, but the vest still is at 100%. Most vests have some 70% to 75% coverage - and according to Murphy's Law hits into the unportected 30% to 25% make more than 1/2 of all hits you suffer.


So my advice would be to not go for more armour. For the weight of a Dragonskin armour you can pack an additional (loaded) rifle, for that of Spectra Leggins an additional LAW; a full suit of kevlar is at some 7kg, while a "jungle armour" (hat, lightweight armour, camo pants) just weights 2,5kg.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269438] Wed, 05 January 2011 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Beka

 
Messages:90
Registered:November 2009
Location: Vault 13
MikeJahn
... a "tank" character who takes on all the attention and gets smashed with firepower. ...


1) Get yourself some really bad mercs (Hamous, Shank, Biff...) or just some guys you dislike.
2) Equip them with the best armor you've got. Also give them medical stuff and lots of canteens and e-/r-boosters. :smilingsoldier:
3) Use these "tank" characters to run up to the enemy and you can be sure that they *will* get lots of attention. :rifle:
4) These tanks are far from being invincible but who cares when they're killed? :roulette:
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269454] Thu, 06 January 2011 07:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Well I tested it in Drassen where I got EOD for the bargain price of 2000 bux which I then repaired to full health + plates. The enemies only brought pistols and assault rifles so the EOD was incredibly effective at absorbing hits. Merc tends to get knocked out easily but having a EOD for general use is definitely plausible with strong characters that aren't agile anyways and mostly use heavy weapons to begin with. Also useful as the point man that has to take the occasional round or the building sweeper who is bound to get shot. Overall relatively useful.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269455] Thu, 06 January 2011 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3395
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
has any one of you ever been forced to wear some relatevily light stuff like security shoes or chain-saw suits?

a full eod-outfit should reduce aps by half - at least
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269457] Thu, 06 January 2011 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Beka

 
Messages:90
Registered:November 2009
Location: Vault 13
Logi, I fully agree with you.
But that is more a question of armor (item) balancing in general, isn't it?
Maybe we could come up with a "armor balancing mod" of some sort?

And while we're on it we could add the 'flag jacket' tag to EOD.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269458] Thu, 06 January 2011 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3395
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
beka, if eods are made like that is it the same for the redshirts?

but the bigger problem is that monster of an items.xml. if someone did that armour-mod it wouldn't work via vfs, cause you can't put it on top of anything else.

do be modder-friendly, it should be split into different xmls - armour, lbes, misc etc.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269459] Thu, 06 January 2011 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ElRaffa

 
Messages:42
Registered:October 2009
Location: Italy
Am I the only one that uses the EODs for the same purpose they are used in real life?

When playing without reloading at the lightest scratch, EODs can help a bit in defusing minefields.
I do that both for having a good stock of mines (you never know) and for improving the character skills (IMP) with something more realistic than the glitch of lame-char-set-mine-and-explosive-expert-defuse-it.

Too bad the EOD doesn't help too much (Maybe is the absence of the "flak jacket" checkbox, IIRC), but it's still better than most of the other armors for that kind of stuff.
Would be great if it could be optimized for the role (defusing explosives) while being of average-usefulness against bullets.

Totally agree with Logi that it should at least halve the APs (and give malus to sight and, -seems a little paradox- a little more chance of stepping on a mine, due to the reduced perception).

Edit:
Before someone points out that I seems to be slightly off-topic, I want to point out that "tank characters" doesn't exists IRL, (though in a sci-fi mod, it would be cool). Fact is, there is much more in JA2 than just fighting the baddies directly, and the EOD is, in my opinion, one of the items that helps that "non-combat usefulness" feeling, just like the toolbox or the tank gas...

[Updated on: Thu, 06 January 2011 12:53] by Moderator

Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269557] Fri, 07 January 2011 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1558
Registered:December 2008
MikeJahn
The enemies only brought pistols and assault rifles so the EOD was incredibly effective at absorbing hits.


Pistols makes sense, probably most of it ball and HP ammo? What kind of ARs did they bring? Should be some SKSes and such, not M16s? How much did the status of the EOD go down after being shot a couple times?


Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269576] Fri, 07 January 2011 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Most of the rifles were M-16's and AK's, the ceramic plate went bust, the armor didn't significantly degrade. According to stats about 15 shots were absorbed and the EOD only degraded a few %. Testing with 5.56 against EOD shows that M-16 is completely ineffective against it- wearer of EOD can survive at least half a mag of 5.56 AP rounds- the plate goes bust, the EOD itself only loses about 20% . I will post videos soon.
Re: What do you think of tank characters?[message #269611] Sat, 08 January 2011 15:26 Go to previous message
usrbid

 
Messages:1558
Registered:December 2008
Do you still have the save game? If yes, remove the ceramic plate and check how much the EOD degrades, would be curious. Also would be interesting how much the soldier gets hurt in the *exact* same situation with no ceramic plate.


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