Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Combat/Weapon Academy » Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles
Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272593] Fri, 04 February 2011 18:22 Go to next message
wacs828

 
Messages:32
Registered:August 2009
Hi,

It seems after playing for a while randomly I will be unable to hit any enemy with one character, sometimes removing the scope helps or switching weapons. Does this happen to others as well or is it just some wierd bug I get?
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272595] Fri, 04 February 2011 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:811
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
First some questions...

What version are you using?
Using any mods?
If you're using one of the newer releases, did you perhaps enable New Chance To Hit(NCTH)?

Also stuff like Merc/Weapon/Scope/Distance would be helpful

☆☆M☆☆
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272617] Fri, 04 February 2011 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wacs828

 
Messages:32
Registered:August 2009
I am using the latest tai (yours) SCI version downloaded from the mediafire. I believe the mods are stomp, wf, 1.13.

The problem occurs always when I have a battlescope equipped in the gun and is random, when I take the scope out the problem goes away. Its very random and rather hard to duplicate. I can attach a savegame if necessary.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272780] Sun, 06 February 2011 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wacs828

 
Messages:32
Registered:August 2009
Seems the problem constantly occurs when I use 7x Battle Scopes for night ops on the M16A4 and FAMAS in particular, is there anything I should be aware of or just use 4x scopes for night ops.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272819] Sun, 06 February 2011 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Badbru

 
Messages:63
Registered:January 2008
Location: Perth Australia
I can't recall which thread it is at the moment but there's one that talks alot about NewChanceToHit. All of the scopes have a range co efficient which alters their effective ranges. This means they have effectively a window of best range to use. A small scope would have a penalty to hit at one to four tiles, it's optimal window might be from five to nine tiles within which you get it's bonus and then beyond nine tiles you suffer a penalty again.

The 10x scopes window does not start until tile 49.

I think the 7x Battlescopes' window starts at around tile 38 and would go up to maybe 50 or so.

So at night you're probably engaging targets around visible sight range (Default setting 13 Tiles I think) to possibly out to 30 tiles range perhaps? Thus you're well with that range prior to where any bonus would be comming from the scope and you're actually getting a aiming, or, "to hit", penalty- possibly a really big one if under 15 tiles range.

So untill you figure out how to alter the range co efficient to reset where these windows are effective for your liking, (the thread in question also explains how to do this) I'd suggest only using no scopes, 2x scopes, or at most 4x scopes at night. 7x and 8x scopes at assault rifle/battle rifle ranges in the day, and sniper rifles only during the day and then only for targets beyond 49 tiles.

Personally I'm not upgrading to NCTH untill its all bugsquashed.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272858] Mon, 07 February 2011 07:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pyg

 
Messages:44
Registered:August 2007
Hmmm, I'm playing a lot of the most recent beta 4117 (snowed in) and I find NCTH pretty decent now. Earlier versions suffered from a known bug which sounds like what the OP is experiencing. Yes, you might want to carry a collection of scopes/weapons to suit conditions but this feels more realistic. What I find whack is some of the different gun attributes, but if you pay attention and use the gun as the attributes suggest things work pretty well. For example I recently picked up a bullpup 5.56 FAMAS (I forget exact model) that has a +75% handling bonus prone and a malus standing/crouched. It hits great if I lay down to shoot it but fires wild most of the rest of the time. Autofire seems a lot more realistic with NCTH which has fairly tight groupings, not completely random spray. If you don't fire completely wild you can land a lot of hits. Give a Machinegunner an AK-47 with PSO-1 scope and a bipod, prone out and bring the pain with 5 round aimed autofire... pretty much guaranteed kill at gun range and a little beyond.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272859] Mon, 07 February 2011 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:811
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
well as the topic starter cant really throw in any decent examples and doesn't really answer the questions i asked him we can only think of stuff that "could" be the problem..

admin, cleanup in aisle nine?

☆☆M☆☆
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272866] Mon, 07 February 2011 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1580
Registered:December 2008
Meh, maybe he'll come around...


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #272920] Mon, 07 February 2011 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
Badbru got it all pretty close. However, sight range is also effected by the scope you're using. Using default values, BASE_SIGHT_RANGE is 13 meaning you can see 26 tiles in daylight with good visibility and no vision enhancement. If you use a battle scope, that increases to around 39 tiles in good light. The battle scope becomes effective at around 34 tiles (less depending on skills). However, at night, the battle scope only gives a 25% vision range bonus so 32 tiles instead of 39. And this assumes you're using good NVGs to overcome the standard night time visibility penalties. Basically, "high power" scopes (that is, anything above 5x mag factor) will have limited effectiveness at night. You're better off using lower powered scopes at night.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273367] Fri, 11 February 2011 21:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BoogieMan

 
Messages:21
Registered:March 2007
Location: FL
I think I am having the same or similar issue. I downloaded and installed Tai's file "SCI_113Beta_r4057_20110116.7z" from the thread http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=261665#Post261665

I believe it's the mod "NTCH". IMO it pretty much broke scopes and by extension sort of the game itself. I understand what the attempted change was meant to do, but it just doesn't work and I can't find a way to disable it's effects.

If I have a merc with a 7x scope on an assault rifle, they have absolutely zero accuracy at less than 8-10 tiles. You can stand 1 step away from an enemy and be completely unable to hit them. I know you get tunnel vision when using scopes, but that's just way too bad of a penalty. You wouldn't need to look through the scope at an enemy so near. I also suspect the AI has no comprehension of this change and doesn't know how to deal with it, making some fights ludicrously simple because they can't defend themselves.

Can anyone advise me on how to disable these effects? When I look at the field for "USE NCTH" It says "FALSE" and the description is "MISSING: PROPERTY DESCRIPTION". Yet from what read I really suspect that mod is the cause.

[Updated on: Fri, 11 February 2011 21:42] by Moderator

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273369] Fri, 11 February 2011 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
If "USE_NCTH=FALSE" in your INI file, then NCTH is turned off. You can definitely tell in the game by looking at the shooting cursor. If it looks like the normal JA2 cursor, you're in OCTH mode. If it looks like anything else (including just the normal cursor with extra data attached) then you're in NCTH mode. If you're getting errors then you've either got a bad INI file or a bad exe.

What you're probably experiencing is the penalty for using a scope within it's MinRangeForAimBonus. For every tile you are within the MinRangeForAimBonus, the effective sight range is increased by the total "Scope Vision Range Bonus" percent. I do see one problem in that ever tile applies this penalty to the current sight range (which increases with each tile because of the loop) instead of simply adding the percent of the initial sight range for each step. That should probably be corrected.
But the primary issue is simply that the MinRangeForAimBonus is the items.xml file currently on the dev branch are wrong. The Battle Scope is listed with a MinRangeForAimBonus=150 while the Sniper Scope only has a 70. This means the sniper scope can currently be used at closer range then the battle scope. And the battle scope starts getting penalties for every tile within 15. I believe the version on the release branch has the battle scope with MinRangeForAimBonus=45 which would have a significant effect.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273380] Fri, 11 February 2011 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BoogieMan

 
Messages:21
Registered:March 2007
Location: FL
Any way I can fix this myself with the ini editor or something similar?
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273385] Fri, 11 February 2011 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Well, that could explain the weird results I was seeing in a battle in the rain I fought yesterday. My guys using ARs couldn't hit worth beans while the guys using SMGs were cleaning up. The ranges were fairly short but not all that short.


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273386] Fri, 11 February 2011 23:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JMich

 
Messages:580
Registered:January 2011
Location: Greece
BoogieMan
Any way I can fix this myself with the ini editor or something similar?
If you mean fix the battle scope, open XML editor, Items->By Class->Misc->Right Click on Battle Scope->View Details and fix it.

Edit:ChrisL has a bit more experience than me, and I did read that the XML editor misses some tags. Follow his advise.

[Updated on: Fri, 11 February 2011 23:42] by Moderator

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273388] Fri, 11 February 2011 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
I don't recommend the xml editor. It's not working with the latest items.xml and weapons.xml files.

Just open the items.xml file in excel or Notepad++, look for the battle scope and alter the MinRangeForAimBonus value. Either that download the correct file directly from the release repository.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273393] Sat, 12 February 2011 00:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BoogieMan

 
Messages:21
Registered:March 2007
Location: FL
Great, thanks for the info. I changed it from 150 to 45.

So if that changes the minimum range to receive the aiming bonus, will that have any effect on it negating any chance to hit at close range as well or would editing another value be required for that?
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273396] Sat, 12 February 2011 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
It won't negate the penalty. It just reduces the range at which the penalty starts to apply. Before you made the change, using a battle scope within 15 tiles would result in a penalty. With a 45 you have to be within 4 tiles before you'll start getting penalized for using the scope at too close of a range. There is no way to completely negate the penalty but I put a new build on the NCTH mediafire page that alters the existing penalty so that it won't "hurt" quite as much.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273397] Sat, 12 February 2011 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Chris, did you update the .xml file too? I've been copying off of there for my testing.


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273399] Sat, 12 February 2011 00:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
Yes. I uploaded a new items.xml which includes the MinRangeForAimBonus values that Starwalker has included on the release branch.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273401] Sat, 12 February 2011 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Tnx!


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273407] Sat, 12 February 2011 02:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BoogieMan

 
Messages:21
Registered:March 2007
Location: FL
Sounds good, could you please direct me to this page you mentioned?
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273408] Sat, 12 February 2011 02:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
http://www.mediafire.com/ncth

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273410] Sat, 12 February 2011 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BoogieMan

 
Messages:21
Registered:March 2007
Location: FL
Thank you sir, much appreciated.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273437] Sat, 12 February 2011 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
BTW, If you use the builds posted on mediafire, you should definitely use the cthconstants.ini that is posted there as well. One of the changes I made to the 4175 build was to adjust how the BASE/AIM_DRAW_COST values were used by the code. If you use a cthconstants.ini that still have negative draw costs, you'll end up with some really unexpected results. Plus, one of the changes I did was to adjust the "weight" at which handling is applied during the two parts of the CTH calculation: base and aim. Those adjustments are all in the cthconstants.ini file.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273472] Sun, 13 February 2011 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Badbru

 
Messages:63
Registered:January 2008
Location: Perth Australia
ChrisL, or anyone who built NCTH:

With how the scopes work now, are the combo scopes like those on the G36 and the acog combo working properly? Are they giving the bonus when the long part of the scope is used, and not giving the penalty in the range area prior to that, when the short range part of the scope should be used, (the reflex optic)?
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273564] Mon, 14 February 2011 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swampgator

 
Messages:96
Registered:May 2009
For me it seems to be the lasers causing the problems. I have to take my laser off to be able to hit someone close range. If it's someone who has a machine pistol in his/her holster i just get the mp out.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273565] Mon, 14 February 2011 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
This is why I'd like to see the "try 10,000 shots and report the results" debug code. We could try various scenarios and see what happens.


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273575] Mon, 14 February 2011 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goncyn

 
Messages:54
Registered:July 2010
I would like to contribute to testing the release. Could one of you kindly point out which thread to read to find all the information I need? I'm good at testing and writing detailed bug reports Smile

Edit: never mind, I found the appropriate thread after some forum-hunting.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 February 2011 01:27] by Moderator

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273581] Mon, 14 February 2011 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
@Badbru: The only "Combo" scope that I know if is the ACOG combo which is simply a reflex sight (reduces aimclicks so you can get max aim faster) and and ACOG 4x combined. If you try to use an acog combo within the acog's "effective range" (19 tiles with default settings) you'll get a penalty based on the AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE setting. JA2 does not support "variable power" scopes. Nor does it allow scopes to ignore their minimum range penalty (that's for both OCTH and NCTH).

@Swampgator: This is the first time anyone has said there was a problem with lasers. I had tested them before and didn't see any problems with them. Lasers work the opposite of scopes. You are supposed to get their best "magnifaction" out to the scopes max range, and then the "magnifaction" should step down (to a minimum 1x) as you pass max range. For a LAM-200, "max range" is something like 9 tiles (by default) a step down in "magnification" until around 14 tiles when it stops working at all. But I'll take a look at the code to see if maybe there's a problem with the projection factor calculations.

@SpaceViking: I'm working on it.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273584] Mon, 14 February 2011 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
ChrisL
@Badbru:@SpaceViking: I'm working on it.


Didn't mean to nag you... When you get something let me know and I'll give it a spin.


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273628] Tue, 15 February 2011 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swampgator

 
Messages:96
Registered:May 2009
Well i'm wondering since someone else said they took the scope off- if maybe the combination of the two attachments is what is causing the problems.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273631] Tue, 15 February 2011 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Badbru

 
Messages:63
Registered:January 2008
Location: Perth Australia
ChrisL
@Badbru: The only "Combo" scope that I know if is the ACOG combo which is simply a reflex sight (reduces aimclicks so you can get max aim faster) and and ACOG 4x combined.


The G36 scope is similar, it's a x1 or x1.5 mounted above a x3.5 .
Quote:

If you try to use an acog combo within the acog's "effective range" (19 tiles with default settings) you'll get a penalty based on the AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE setting. JA2 does not support "variable power" scopes. Nor does it allow scopes to ignore their minimum range penalty (that's for both OCTH and NCTH).


That's a pity because the reality of these scope combo's is that at short range you use the reflex, say for under 19 tiles, to put it back into JA terms and to use your numbers, and, at longer ranges when you're actually aiming you use the acog part. So for JA terms under that 19 tile range the operator wouldn't be using the acog portion anyway and thus shouldn't get the aim penalty for being "within" the acogs effective range.

[/quote]
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273640] Tue, 15 February 2011 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
I agree Badbru. One of the existing issues with scopes (in OCTH and NCTH) is that we can't currently designate being able to fire without the scope while it's attached. If a scope is attached to a weapon, then the code tries to use it even if we're in a situation where we probably wouldn't.

@Swampgator: I don't see any problems with the system where scopes + lasers are concerned. Here's an amalgum of screen shots:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1386/lasersscopes.jpg
In all three cases, it's the same merc using the same weapon with the same attachments: Reaper with a MSG90A1 fitted with bipod, sniper suppressor, sniper scope and LAM-200. The only thing that has changed is the range to target. In the top image, Reaper is close enough to get full effectiveness from the LAM-200 so he gets a 1.4x "mag factor". The middle image has Reaper two tiles further away which puts him at the extreme edge of the LAM-200's projection factor which is why he's only getting a 1.1x "mag factor". And the bottom image is one tile further away which puts Reaper too far from the target for his LAM-200 to be any use at all so he's getting the 3.4x mag factor that his scope applies. So scopes and lasers are working together as expected. That said, I do see some issues since the scope is reporting more of a mag factor then it should so I need to look at that function.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273698] Wed, 16 February 2011 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Badbru

 
Messages:63
Registered:January 2008
Location: Perth Australia
Perhaps we need a new function for the "B" key; single shot, burst fire,(where applic)auto fire, GL fire, (where applic)scoped fire (where applic).
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273699] Wed, 16 February 2011 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
The code should probably just figure it both with and without the scope and pick whichever is better.


Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273700] Wed, 16 February 2011 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273714] Wed, 16 February 2011 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
SpaceViking
ChrisL
@Badbru:@SpaceViking: I'm working on it.


Didn't mean to nag you... When you get something let me know and I'll give it a spin.
Well, I wrote a function to generate these test shots but it is not accurate and after looking deep into the relevant functions, I don't think there is a way to make it accurate. If I set the fFake flag, we bypass the usual MoveBullet function and instead use a seperate function named CalcChanceToGetThrough. NCTH actually uses the MoveBullet function to determine whether we hit a target simply by moving the bullet and if it ever intersects with the target, damage is applied. CalcChanceToGetThrough, on the other hand, doesn't appear to do the same thing. I believe this is the function that determines whether to determine the black cursor (meaning a shot is not possible at all) so messing around with it probably isn't the best option. About the only thing I can think of would be to write a completely new set of functions (FireBulletGivenTargetNCTH, FireBullet and MoveBullet) which is alot of work for an accuracy test. I'll keep looking at possibilities but right now I'm not really liking the options.

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273718] Wed, 16 February 2011 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Toneone

 
Messages:383
Registered:October 2008
Location: Germany
The russian Night Ops mod had an interesting take on this problem.
A reflex sight would give a to hit bonus on an unaimed shot, and as soon as you spend the first click the bonus was lost and the scope was used. This set your CTH back by quite a large amount forcing you to spend additional clicks in most cases.

I dont know if this would work in the current 1.13 envoirenment but its worth a thought.
Though it would be problematic applying this to combo scopes i figure.

regards

[Updated on: Wed, 16 February 2011 21:58] by Moderator

Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273720] Wed, 16 February 2011 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goncyn

 
Messages:54
Registered:July 2010
Hazmat
A reflex sight would give a to hit bonus on an unaimed shot, and as soon as you spend the first click the bonus was lost and the scope was used ... Though it would be problematic applying this to combo scopes i figure.

If a solution like this were attempted, could the combo scopes simply be removed? I believe NAS makes things flexible enough that you could still attach your 4x scope and a reflex sight.
Re: Problem hitting enemy with assault rifles[message #273722] Wed, 16 February 2011 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
NAS will support a 4x and reflex sight as seperate items, depending on how your mod is setup. But OAS (which is still a supported mode) does not so the combo sight still needs to be accounted for.

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