Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites
[IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280584] Tue, 24 May 2011 11:38 Go to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Recently I started to think about using 3D models to create new animations for JA2. You can use them to make animations frames, by simply making screenshots of key frames. It can be quite tiresome, but I think its easier then working on 2D sprites only.

I prepared little demonstration using a model I created long time ago. I used Milkshape 3D as I had it at hand. However not that I suck at animation and Milkshape itself is unwieldy in that aspect.





As you can see its isnt best, but I spend like 10 minutes on this. The beauty, in using 3D models, lies in fact you dont need to create completely new stuff create sprites for different angles, you just swing the camera and take screens of same keyframes.


I think that blender is one of the best programs for this, also DAZ 3D is said to be good at this, its in free beta stage right now.

Just pointing out, maybe someone will find it useful.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:54] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280596] Tue, 24 May 2011 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:677
Registered:September 2010
Looks good. I don't know enough about graphics to tell you whether or not those would be usable for JA, but finding an easyer way to making new anims certainly is highly required.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280599] Tue, 24 May 2011 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
It was just an presentation, a proof of concept.

As far as I know JA2 animations are 2D sprites animated via frames (like a cartoon). So to create animation you need to create set of frames by hand. And if you want to make animation of, say, soldier running you need, lets say, 8 frames for one direction, now multiply this by 8 directions and all of this have to create separatly. Directions are completely different view so you need completely different sprites. All of this while animation is the same

Now if you had 3D model you only need one animation of soldier running and you can make all directions, you just take screenshots of keyframes from different points of view. Putting them in JA2 is same as those made by hand, its just the process of creating sprites that is different.

Also you only need, 3 models to cover all possible body builds, 4 if you would create new large female body. Pistol and Rilfe can be just seperate group. Also animations can be same for all 3 models, if they will use same skeleton.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:18] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280601] Tue, 24 May 2011 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Toneone

 
Messages:383
Registered:October 2008
Location: Germany
I quite like it, as a proof of concept this is pretty neat.
Of course, i would like it to be more true to the original color palette of JA but for starters its really nice.
Maybe someone with the right knowledge can chime in and tell us if it is useable?

Quote:
I think that blender is one of the best programs for this

Probably, i used Blender for a wide range of different graphic works, nothing too serious though.
I was very satisfied with the program and its user friendly.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:24] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280603] Tue, 24 May 2011 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
I just used that model because I had it at hand, I created it for Medieval 2 Total War. Creating new ones just for JA2 would be rather easy, as it dosent need to be super detailed. Textures are completely separate thing so if you group it right then you can mish-mash colors as you see fit.

Blender is very good, it has great constriction system, good animation system, and is FREE. Maybe there are some plugins that would make animating easier. I used milkshape as I currently dont have Blender instaled, Ms3D is clunky when it comes to animating, but it can do in pinch Wink.

Personally I would just find some well made human skeleton made in blender (with constrain and all) and just build 3D model around it. it pretty much cuts the work of creating a rig by 3/4.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:49] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280629] Tue, 24 May 2011 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
I found good meshes base for normal female and male. Good starting point, we would need some gear though, but nothing you cant find.

male
female

Now we would need a good skeleton to rig this.

Damn it, I just cant get into that blender. I would need to work my way out of the basics. I do, however, can make mesh in milkshape (it can be imported into blander later). However it would take someone with more knowladge then me to rig and animate this.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:25] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280650] Tue, 24 May 2011 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Ok, so I took that low poly female model and I ended up with something COMPLETELY different Razz. Its because I found my stash with my Resident Evil 4 modding stuff. So I kept adding and adding stuff until I ended up completely replacing that low poly one.

Behold my female merc model Very Happy.

Toggle Spoiler


Note Im not a good 3D artist and I suck at getting proportions right.

I didnt do any texturing, only made skin tone the same on all parts. I only turned up brightness and contrast on this preview so details are more visible. Now we would need some good skeleton.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:49] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280674] Wed, 25 May 2011 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kazuya

 
Messages:222
Registered:January 2009
@Taro: Your idea is not really new Wink I don't say this in order to belittle your effort. It's quite the contrary, I appreciate it and the other users here surely do aswell. But there are some things you should know. You pointed out correctlky, that JA2 uses sprites, that are similar to a cartoon and that it would be easier to use a 3d modell, animate it and capture the according pictures. So far so good, but there is one major problem with your current approach. I have been playing a little bit with blender myself and thanks to Darin, a user from the NMA Forum, I have been able to aquire some awesom models:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5956/standwalksw.gif

This is what the actual merc picture looks like:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8954/mercpu.png

As you can see, it uses some weird colours. Those colours are actually placeholders and the colours that you see in game, are saved for each mercenary. A mercenary has an entry like black pants and white shirt. So when the game draws your merc, it takes the frame that is needed and looks up, what colours are stored in your merc data. The game sees, black pants, so now it goes to its picture and draws black over the green pixel, because green is replaced with the pants colours, it does the same thing for shirt, skin and hair. Only the boots stay as brown as they are. Now, what would happen if you took your own model with all the animations and just paste them into the sti files in the anims folder? Well, you would most certainly screw up the colours. All animation stis use the same predefined colour palette and I haven't been able to change them without causing problems.

But that doesn't mean, that it can't be done. There have been some other sprites for the mercs, just search the forum for "Logical Bodytypes" or "Improving the original JA2 graphics".
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280678] Wed, 25 May 2011 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Hey it will be easy to simple replace textures with those bright colors, no worries here. I will post the results.

Well as i said, it wasnt hard at all, here is version recolored to fit the palette:

http://imageshack.us/m/90/5586/femalemerc2.jpg

[Updated on: Wed, 25 May 2011 00:39] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280707] Wed, 25 May 2011 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:677
Registered:September 2010
Yes, perfect (I think).

When the boots stay brown I would guess other parts that are not with those place-holder colors would do too? So in case of the above amazone you might also use a brown belt (the Vanilla mercs do), and may be even leave the vest black. Evn though the problem would be that this kind of bodytype would be used for all females of that kind by the game, including not only mercs without vests but also civilians.

Would it be possible to use more models than the default ones, and would it possible to change the model of a character during game?
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280708] Wed, 25 May 2011 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Its perfectly possible to have different bodies for characters, someone already done that. I thought about changing color of some stuff, but I do not know what colors are allowed.

BTW: Better to have badass amazon then half naked bimbo Wink.

[Updated on: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:56] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280722] Wed, 25 May 2011 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Toneone

 
Messages:383
Registered:October 2008
Location: Germany
This looks promising!
Keep at it man when you can.
The real advantage of capping 3d model frames imho, would be that it becomes easyier to create some bodytypes which have some kind of uniform or which show some equipment like a belt with a bag or a holster.
Always missed details like that, and sometimes you wonder why everybody is just wearing a shirt in a warzone.

[Updated on: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:42] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280723] Wed, 25 May 2011 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
The problem is that JA 2 sprites are rather small so its hard to put in details, but if we could make this work you could somehow work in alternative versions depending on equipment, like helmet or bullet proof vest.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280741] Wed, 25 May 2011 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Toneone

 
Messages:383
Registered:October 2008
Location: Germany
Quote:
you could somehow work in alternative versions depending on equipment, like helmet or bullet proof vest.

Thats a bit to far imho. Would be very cool, but lets keep it simple before anything is done.
I was just refering to the stock bodytypes. If they could be spiffied up a bit that would make me damn happy.
Some kind of uniform or military looking outfit would make a whole lot of difference it think.
Heck, i even would be gratefull for some sleves on those shirts.
The custom big body in the mod Renegade Republic was a really cool thing at the time, and ive just grown really tired of the shirt+pants look.

Yeah, the sprites are kinda small and showing details is not that easy but can be done.
The custom body in RR had a belt&sling over his clothes and neat scarf that was blowing in the wind.
Just as an example.

regards
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280744] Wed, 25 May 2011 22:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
I agree basic stuff first, I returned boots and gloves to black color, Im pretty sure it would stay like that in game, I also unhid belts and stuff. I think those will be seen pretty clearly even if you resize it. I also shortened legs a bit so proportions are bit better now



I will now import that model into blender and try to rig it, although I have NO idea how to do that properly. Help would be very much welcome.

Is there any default human skeleton in blender? I want all models have same one so animations can be same as well, much less work.

[Updated on: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:18] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280749] Wed, 25 May 2011 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kazuya

 
Messages:222
Registered:January 2009
Be careful with pure black. The RGB value (0,0,0) is sometimes used as a colourkey, regardless of what is set in the sti file. So if you see some strange artefacts in your animation in game, this might be caused by it. Another thing to keep in mind is that you have to set blender to isometric view. Otherwise the animation will look wrong in game.

I'm looking forward to this and I wish you all the best of luck. I don't have much experience with blender and can't really help you. But if you manage to get this done, don't forget to write a tutorial about it. Wink
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280750] Wed, 25 May 2011 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Changing brightness of texture bits is just few seconds of work, so its not a big problem. Im more worried about skeleton and rigging in blender.

BTW: How you set camera is last detail, we would only worry about that once we finish rigging and animating model.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280774] Thu, 26 May 2011 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:677
Registered:September 2010
Hazmat
If they could be spiffied up a bit that would make me damn happy.
Some kind of uniform or military looking outfit would make a whole lot of difference it think.
Heck, i even would be gratefull for some sleves on those shirts.
Yes, that would be a first, but very important, step to improve the graphics of JA. We players of JA2 are certainly no graphic fetishists, otherwise we wouldn't be playing a more than ten years old game - but in particular the graphics of the figures are mostly of the wtf?-type.

In particular all kinds of t-shirts, muscle-shirts and tight leggings have to be replaced with long sleved jackets and normal fitting trousers. Another thing is some stances looking extremly odd. For example the normal male figure walking with a two-handed weapon holds his weapon like a Chinese or Russian soldier on parade. The big male holding his weapon up one handed and shooting from the hip also is a bit strange.

I think the only body that has its animations right is the female figure with holding the gun in a more natural state muzzle down and correctly shooting with both hands from the shoulder.

Some pics of modern soldiers in Afghanistan without helmets for reference:

[Updated on: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:47] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280778] Thu, 26 May 2011 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Quote:
Yes, that would be a first, but very important, step to improve the graphics of JA. We players of JA2 are certainly no graphic fetishists, otherwise we wouldn't be playing a more than ten years old game - but in particular the graphics of the figures are mostly of the wtf?-type.


Rember that my goal here is to create models that will make creating new animations much easier, Improving graphics is just nice side effect.

I have Arma 2 so I have VERY good source of inspiration Wink.

I still have no idea how to deal with blender so I will try to create new body for normal male. Really, anybody, if you know how to work in that program please help out.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280787] Thu, 26 May 2011 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:677
Registered:September 2010
Taro
Rember that my goal here is to create models that will make creating new animations much easier, Improving graphics is just nice side effect.
You would need to make new base models first, otherwise you would end up with the mercs looking in differently in the new animations (which?) than in other situations.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280790] Thu, 26 May 2011 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
And what do you think Im doing right now? Im creating new models, yes I do realize you need to remake all animations using new models, but at least it will be easier to create them.

As for models, here is first version of normal male merc:



I went with short sleeve shirt, it looks mercenary enough and soldiers wear them too, besides arulco is subtropical Wink. Seriously though, I wanted one size fits all model. I had problem with hair transparency so I left hair without alpha map, Im sure blender will render them correctly.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280792] Thu, 26 May 2011 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lamach_Head

 
Messages:426
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars
I would say go for shorter haircut. And I am not sure about the vest. Anyway looking good. I am looking forward to this.

Have you considered that instead of changing all the existing animations you may for start try something easier? Like creating new animation for a new feature with the current graphic?
For example:
- kicking/stomping an enemy on the ground (HtH attack with no need to crouch)
- hitting with rifle stock
- martial arts animation for women and big dudes
- grapple
- whatever...
???


Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280793] Thu, 26 May 2011 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
As i said befor that model is "one-size-fits-all" kind, so I decided for medium hair.

BTW: Do you still want JA2 to be beach party with all that t-shirts only sprites? Wink

Before I start animating we need to rig this properly to a good skeleton. If you do it right then we can think about creating new animations at all.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280806] Thu, 26 May 2011 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Ok, right now Im going through crash course of blender. I just realized that I forgot about a weapon so I looked around the web and found nice rifle and pistol, however I had scale them down and now I dont know if they are in right proportion to the body.

So I need some of our resident gun nuts take a look at this:

Right click on image and select "Show Image" to view bit bigger version.
http://imageshack.us/m/196/3376/weaponsm.jpg



And tell me if that M1911 and M16a2 are in right proportion to the rest of the body (a normal human, maybe a bit better build). If its not then you need to tell me how many frames in X axis (side-to-side) it should be and will scale to that.


EDIT:

Small news flash: I managed to understand blender enough to create a skeleton that will do for our purpose.

http://imageshack.us/m/811/210/skeleton1.jpg

Now have to rig ALL of this...damn.

[Updated on: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:14] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280843] Fri, 27 May 2011 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1580
Registered:December 2008
Taro
Better to have badass amazon then half naked bimbo


Uh, that's a difficult one, this one is difficult... I just can't decide which one... Very Happy

Yo Taro, Bio (who is still active on this board) has played with new body types before, check out his post here. He also did some experiments with alpha blending here.

I am not mentioning this to make your work look smaller, on the contrary I really like your work and maybe reading through Bio's posts might give you some additional ideas (as I have no clue about graphics I can't tell if this will be useful for you).

Also if you would like to work together with Bio I can help you two to get started, just let me know if you are interested.


Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #280854] Fri, 27 May 2011 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
As for now I have more technical problems with blender, so I will additionally start a WIP thread on blender artist. Right now I have a problem with constraints as constrained bones move around wildly making it more or less impossible to animate. However I did figure out constraints, more or less.

Here I would like to see more JA 2 oriented help, like that info about pallets. Also are those guns in right proportion to the body?

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2011 12:49] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281118] Sat, 28 May 2011 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:64
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
About that palette stuff. LOBOT supports fixed palettes if that is desired. So you can be completely free in your choice of colors. Of course that feature was meant mainly for prop layers like guns/vests and stuff. And other layers like hairstyles (or maybe certain styles of clothing) should obviously use the dynamic palette, but it would also be possible to use a fixed palette for the complete model.
One more thing, there should be no problem with black pixels. Remember that the palette is indexed. You just have to make sure you apply a palette that has black only where it is guaranteed to be rendered as black in-game (there is a range of gray scale colors from black to white that is fixed).
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281121] Sat, 28 May 2011 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1566
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
btw while doing this, could You bring back something from Ja1?

They had at least one baldheaded merc (already done by Kazuya)
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281437] Mon, 30 May 2011 05:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
If I manage a to create working one-size-fits-all rig and then animate it, then we can think about variations.

Anyway. I have very good news lads I managed to create rather nice skeleton, with constrains, that can be animated rather easily. Now I need to rig that female merc.

[Updated on: Mon, 30 May 2011 05:29] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281481] Mon, 30 May 2011 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
good work , this'll be interesting :ok:


Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281486] Mon, 30 May 2011 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
I would say go for shorter haircut.


A mullet , we must have a mullet.... Very Happy


Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281487] Mon, 30 May 2011 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1566
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
As You wish
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281531] Mon, 30 May 2011 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
I only created those 2 models so I can have something to work with. Right now Im focusing on female one. If I manage to get it running and animate it then we can think about other stuff.

Once again, if you have a good skeleton then mesh becomes secondary issue. If you animate skeleton properly then you can have multiple meshes running on same animations. In short: you only need one set of animations, if you use same skeleton.

I started thread on blender artist where I look for more technical help: [WIP] Weighting and animating a female mercenary .

[Updated on: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:48] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281579] Tue, 31 May 2011 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
I DID IT! I FUCKING DID IT!

It took me WHOLE day, but here is rendener of now rigged mesh of female mercenary, I managed to get textures working and all. Still takes a bit to pose. but at least its easier then in Milkshape.



Right click on image and select "Show Image" to view bit bigger version.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9696/femalemercrender.png

Now we can start thinking about making a proof of concept animation, but I will need someone who knows how to make JA2 sprites.

[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2011 04:13] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281595] Tue, 31 May 2011 05:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
raycrasher

 
Messages:59
Registered:August 2010
Location: Philippines
I volunteer for STI grunt work for this, just give me the rendered frames, preferably in non-lossy image format.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281597] Tue, 31 May 2011 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Many thanks!

Im just starting to learn stuff about animating in blender, quite a bit of work to properly align stuff, as I dont know magic shortcuts that would make if more bearable. Still those constrains are real life savers.

I decided to replace M16a2 model with FN FAL. The reason is that M16 has very unique shape that can be easily recognized, FN FAL has more "generic rifle" look. Besides FAL is one of my favorite rifles Very Happy.

Here is model with new weapon and in new pose I was testing out:


http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1159/femalemercrender2.png


I would need some sample animation from JA2, so I can work out camera angles, frames and such, preferably in frame by frame jpg files. I think we need to start small, so lets replace some simple animation that can played repeatedly, maybe opening doors.

[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2011 06:07] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281603] Tue, 31 May 2011 07:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3728
Registered:July 2009
Did you check out this wiki entry? It also mentions what angles to use to achieve the isometric look.


Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281609] Tue, 31 May 2011 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Thanks that will come in useful. I managed to create rather nice open door animation while carrying a rifle.

2 frames out of 40

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4561/0001sh.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3919/0018py.jpg



I still would need original open door animations so I can set up camera angles and use proper lighting.

[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2011 08:57] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281615] Tue, 31 May 2011 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SharkD

 
Messages:344
Registered:July 2003
I'm very impressed. Those are nice models!

Would be cool if they were created in MakeHuman so that we can have beefier/skinnier/taller/shorter/whatever versions with little modification needed.

Not complaining tho.
Re: [IDEA] Using 3D models to create animations sprites[message #281628] Tue, 31 May 2011 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kazuya

 
Messages:222
Registered:January 2009
Taro
I still would need original open door animations so I can set up camera angles and use proper lighting.


Animations are stored in the anim.slf file found in the data folder. The door animation files are called s_open.sti, m_open and f_open and are either in the S_Merc, M_Merc or F_Merc folder.
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