Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Coding Talk » [IDEA] New Magazine System
Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #303469] Sun, 15 April 2012 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
Hey, war's not fair. I dont like the idea of limiting player possibilites in matching ammo due to balance issues.

BTW: I would throw in tracer at the start for extra imbalance Razz.

[Updated on: Sun, 15 April 2012 20:33] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #303471] Sun, 15 April 2012 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
If you want early tracers, just think what HP:G:T in 2:2:1 will do to the early, unarmored opposition :pitchfork:
And if armor is handed out earlier than expected, you can still strip out the tracers and use a more conservative AP:T in 4:1 or AP:HP:T in 3:1:1 instead.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #309210] Fri, 17 August 2012 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faalagorn

 
Messages:157
Registered:February 2012
Location: Poland
Bumping this thread a bit for it to not fall in abyss ^^. So, is anyone still working on this feature anymore? Since it's honestly probably the last feature I'd love to see in JA2 that isn't still implemented Smile.
Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313001] Thu, 13 December 2012 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sardonic_wrath

 
Messages:48
Registered:June 2011
Faalagorn
Since it's honestly probably the last feature I'd love to see in JA2 that isn't still implemented Smile.
My thoughts exactly!
I'm still puzzled that this hasn't been done yet... we have LMGs beltfed by other mercs, but not this? (not that I don't love that feature Wink )

Loved how it was done in 7.62. Personally, I don't care too much about different ammo types, and I certainly don't need to mix different ones in a specific order. The only thing that matters to me - no more infinite magazines.
I think it could add a lot to gameplay... Magazines cost money, they have weight, take up inventory space, and aren't necessarily easy to come by, and they are mostly weapon specific.
Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313002] Thu, 13 December 2012 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
Mainly because implementing an assistant gunner is trivial compared to rewriting the complete ammunition system.
But yes, having a kickass gun, tons of ammo but only 3 magazines added interesting considerations.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313018] Thu, 13 December 2012 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lamach_Head

 
Messages:426
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars
I also see this as one of the most awesome features to be yet made. Just pray silently Flugente will pick it up.. Smile


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313075] Sat, 15 December 2012 01:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Bob

 
Messages:368
Registered:May 2009
Location: Behind you.
IIRC there's just a lot of problems with this, on many levels.

1 - UI to support this feature. Probably most work with this one.
2 - New items to make this happen. Mags, bullets, clips, belt-links, speed-loaders, all of that.
3 - IIRC there's even a problem with JA2 calculating weight at 100g increments, which makes assigning weight to loose rounds hard
4 - Coding the core features might be the easiest part, but still is lot of work. Where there were numbers, now we get items.
5 - The additional complexity may bring about unforeseen issues, performance or gameplay -wise we may hit a wall.

Also, is ChrisL still around, or did he leave his work at his SVN branch? I asked about getting the latest version of the code but didn't hear back.

Anyway, I think if someone starts chipping away at either of these tasks, there's a chance this project will start moving again.

Personally, when I consider taking on this project, I feel intimidated by having to come up with all the above points. Designing a sensible UI can be as bad as having to code it, if someone make mock-ups it would make the task seem less overwhelming. Same with items, a clear write-up of how to divide them and how should they work in NMS would make it easier to start coding (making actual items/graphics comes later). Then there's also the weight issue - zero-weight rounds are not an option. This could be done with a hack of some sort (item_type = loose_rounds -> weight is per 10pcs, calculated differently), but still adds to the task.

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313077] Sat, 15 December 2012 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
It seems Chris' branch contains ... nothing. Not a single file. So the only way is probably to send him a mail to the address he left above.

1)I've made this screen earlier today when talking with Flug about the subject, it's from the game 7.62 which does essentially use NMS:
https://nvheea.dm1.livefilestore.com/y1pXz7fWlBjQkcm0qCiQcCCsN1HC984T1UZFDcFF29xtvllhzzubZg1pQ84O15rk2mYMNEweEPPLvbVV0YTvfY6ErTg5lqflL67/7.62_Magazine_Loading.jpg
Top row shows the rounds currently stacked in the magazines, the numbers above them are used to shorten the list when multiples of the same round are together. A click on round will remove it from the stack (I think that works only for the first).
Bottom row shows the ammunition piles we have in our inventory, clicking on a pile adds one round to the stack. I didn't check, but this can of course be improved with shift/ctrl to add 5/as many as possible.
As an alternative option, that game also has the 'I don't care variant' where you just click an empty mag on a pile in your inventory and get a uniformly filled magazine.
2)We do have many items already, beginning with tons of magazine pics. The more specialized stuff wouldn't be hard to do for our talented artists and can use placeholders for the time being.
3)With the work it probably takes to adapt an item base to NMS, I see 'multiply all weights by 100' as one of the smaller ones, i.e. I'd change it to generally represent 1g. Tracking down the code references to weight could even be done by a less talented guy like myself^^
I believe Flug wanted to add to 4) and 5)


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313080] Sat, 15 December 2012 02:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Bob

 
Messages:368
Registered:May 2009
Location: Behind you.
I remember seeing this in that game... Didn't bother to actually learn to use it though. I meant a JA2-like mock-up though. Ideas on how to deal with 5-shot clips and 200round belts without making it look silly at either extreme, as well as keeping it manageable.

Also I mentioned the actual items come later, it's the general idea for the whole system that needs to be laid out. For example, it's clear we have generic mags and put ammo in them, but what about ammo belts (do they need links or just the box), weapons loaded with loose rounds (how do we persist loading order), what about beta-mags (do they need adapters?) and other special cases.

This doesn't require any coding skill, rather some gun knowledge and UI design intuition. This will effectively be a large part of the specification for NMS.

The weight thing should be fairly straightforward:
- adjust data types in code (int for grams means max 65kg per item; I made 10Ton backpacks...)
- adjust all item weights in xml (multiply by 100 for now, let modders fix exact weights)
- adjust UI display part, so it still shows in 100g increments (might break otherwise), maybe add a tooltip with exact weight

IMO a worthwhile change on its own, but definitely more then 15 min. of work.

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313081] Sat, 15 December 2012 02:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I read through this entire thread yesterday, and we had a fruitful discussion on IRC today. There are still a lot of problems I still see with this whole idea. However, I will first outline what I'd assume to be the defacto current concept and then the (in my view) best way of coding, so that we are on common grounds.

Concept
The idea is to make magazines become attachments that can exist empty. Upon loading a gun, the magazine does not magically vanish, and upon unloading, it does not appear out of thin air. Unloading a gun retrieves the same magazine that one previously put in, no magical belt-to-mag conversion.

A magazine also has modifiers, like +-reliability.

A magazine can have bullets of different ammotypes (AP, HP, tracer, ... ) and different calibers (.38, 357, .50, 9mmx19, ...). A magazine has a maximum amount of bullets it can hold (and we would treat belts the same way, because infinitely long magazines are whack, hmmkay?).

Upon loading a gun with a magazine, some guns can 'overload', thus having one bullet in the chamber and a full magazine loaded. So a G36 could have one bullet in the chamber and a full 30-rnd mag loaded, thus giving it 31 rounds to fire. When reloading such a gun, the magazine would be replaced, but the bullet in the chamber would stay, thus greatly speeding up reloading time, as there is no need to cycle. Some guns can do this, other's can't.

Not all guns accept all magazines. Furthermore, not all guns of a caliber accept the same magazines (so a Steyr AUG might not accept M16-magazines, even though they both have the same caliber).

When shooting a gun with mixed ammotypes/calibers, each bullet should have its corresponding values. A magazine with a 4 AP, 1 Tracer round 'template' would have every 5th round be a tracer.

My view of coding this
A bullet in a magazine would be a small struct that defines its ammotype and caliber:
typedef struct
{
	UINT8 uCalibre;
	UINT8 uAmmoType;
} LOADED_BULLET;

The magazine would then have a dynamic list of these bullets:
std::list	mBulletList;


That way only those bullets that actually exist in a magazine would take space, and we would not waste space reserved for bullets that aren't there, or even reserve space for bullets on objects that are not magazines at all... remember, every object in JA2 is of class OBJECTTYPE. Wether or not an object is a gun, a magazine or a T-Shirt is irrelevant as far as the game is concerned. They all take up the same amount of space. If we'd allow 200 attachments on objects, EVERY object would have to reserve space for those. ChrisL's mention about the 65KB ojects comes to mind.

Once a bullet would be fired, we would simply create a bullet depending on the LOADED_BULLET data of the first entry in the guns attached magazine's mBulletList, and then delete that entry. If, however, we really want to go with overloading magazines, we need a bullet in the gun and not the magazine - we would perform an intermediate step: Upon loading the gun, the first bullet of the magazine would be deleted and recreated in the gun's mBulletList. We would always fire that and simply reload that one from the magazine. mBulletList would become the 'chamber' so to speak.

Without a magazine, bullets would be 'loose rounds'. These wont fit into a gun directly - bullets belong into magazines, and magazines belong into guns. An item 'loose rounds' would be like the current ammo crates and consist of bullets of the same ammotype and caliber. The easy way to fill a magazine would be to simply drag the loose item on the magazine, which is then filled as far as possible.
The hard way is for mags with mixed calibers and ammotypes. We need something like the 'deduct money' dialogue, but multiple times - for every ammotype and caliber fitting the magazine that we currently have in our inventory. One would then, upon clicking, deduct 1,5,10,x bullets into the magazine.

Some guns that do not have magazines that one attaches, like revolvers or shotguns. The magazines are integral to the gun itself. So one would perform the procedure/dialogue described above for these guns.

Up to this point, everything would be doable, altough a loooot of work.

Remaining problems
  • The idea of mixing calibers may sound neat, but it would, at the current state, be utterly meaningless. The only thing calibers currently do is limit which gun can take what magazine, and have different names. If you tell the M82 to be of calibre .38, it will happily be so, range and damage will be the same, as they only depend on the gun.

    Seriously, why do people hammer at the magazine system, when the current way of calibers is way more out of line?

    What should be done before even touching NMS should be a New Calibre System:

    Every calibre has values for base damage, base range, and base accuracy. Ammo types stay roughly as they are. A gun gets values that modify a bullets values, so modifiers for range, damage, accuracy.
    That way, an M16 can still hit longer and harder than an M4. At the same time, if it can magically shoot .38 (because the modder says so), the .38 bullets it shoots will fly farther than if they were shot from a revolver, but still less so than the 5.56 bullets it shoots.
    This has numerous advantages in my view. For example, if one wanted to improve shotgun damage due to his personal preference, you'd only have to alter one value.
  • While the idea of having a separate bullet in the chamber may sound pretty neat, it will become pretty annoying. If I put a 30-rnd mag into a an M16, I would expect to be get a 30-rnd magazine if I unload it. And not having to unlaod it again somehow to get a single bullet that I then have to put into the magazine. Yes, I know this is exactly what happens if I load a gun and load a bullet, have done that myself, thank you. But this is insanely tedious.

    What? Have a separate action to actually load the bullet into the chamber? Do you know how tedious this will become? Do you demand separate keys to control left and right foot movement during ego-shooters? Forget it

    --half-schizophrenic rant is over--
  • If a magazine is loaded with different ammotypes, how are you supposed to know what you are firing? A dialogue that displays every single bullet would be needed. Furthermore, do we even want that? This is unrealistic^2. If one loads a mag with bullets and then loads that, you have no way of seeing the bullets. No, see-through magazines do not let you view the chambered bullet. Take that, realism-lovers :armsfolded:
  • Loading a mixed magazine will be tedious, both coding it and doing so. To even have a minimal degree of comfort, one 'd need a monster of dialogue, with insane amount of coding (at least with the dialogue system we are stuck with). 'Loading Templates' might ease that, but not much.
    How is that whole loading business supposed to anyway? I would outright refuse to use a system where I have to load every magazine of every gun of every of the 32 mercs I have. This is like farming items, but less fun.
  • Mixed mags would be useless given the current code. A bullet does not remember its ammotype. Currently, whenever a bullet hits something, we check who fired it, look at his weapon, determine what ammotype it currently uses, and use that. Can relatively easy be fixed by adding the ammotype to the bullet-structure, but is worth remembering.
  • Add lots of pain for coders and modders everywhere due to the fact that the current system still has to coexist with this, which creates numerous headaches I don't even want to think about.
  • This system is incompatible with OAS, as we only have 4 attachments there, and one would be needed for the magazine always. Though I'd say if someone is purist enough to demand to play with OAS, he will propably also skip this anyway. Not to mention true purists play with 2085, because back then, everything was better :rant2: :silly:
    (No pun on newer forum members intended)
  • As Bob mentioned it: odd stuff, like magazines loading LIFO, FILO or completely weird ways (Neostead), is always there to further complicate things. FILO and LIFO could be treated relatively easy though.

[Updated on: Sat, 15 December 2012 04:04] by Moderator



Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313091] Sat, 15 December 2012 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
The_Bob
I remember seeing this in that game... Didn't bother to actually learn to use it though. I meant a JA2-like mock-up though. Ideas on how to deal with 5-shot clips and 200round belts without making it look silly at either extreme, as well as keeping it manageable.
Ah, my bad. Just imagine it with brown borders instead of grey ^^ Seriously though, it's actually pretty scalable and should work from 2 to 200. It would also be more of the optional deluxe mode for tailoring very versatile stuff like shotguns, I'd imagine 95% of the time, uniformly filling with AP, HP or Match would be sufficient and templates would cover tracer belts adequately.
The_Bob
For example, it's clear we have generic mags and put ammo in them, but what about ammo belts (do they need links or just the box), weapons loaded with loose rounds (how do we persist loading order), what about beta-mags (do they need adapters?) and other special cases.
Ok, I'd keep this as simple as possible with a minimal amount of types/classes/whatever.
Loose Ammunition:
'Pile of Ammo' is preferable to the point of being a no-brainer due to the significant resource savings. Should come with a money-deduct mechanic to split when needed.
Magazines and Clips:
At the end of the day, there are only Clips and Magazines. For the purpose of implementation, a belt is a magazine*. Unless you want to add another layer of complications, all belts are non-disintegrating. A Garand clip is also a Magazine in this light. C-Mags are yet another magazine, no adapters needed. Loading order is always LIFO, it's set by the magazines and the belts and clips don't care, so they follow. A clip is a magazine that doesn't attach to a gun but instead only deposits ammo to another magazine faster than you can reload one at a time.
General Gun Types:
For the purpose of this discussion, we'll only differentiate between open bolt and closed bolt (closed bolt can hold one round without any kind of magazine, open can't) and internal vs. detachable magazine. I tend towards making internal mags simply inseparable attachments, for consistency and treating them all the same internally. Which leaves us with only two types of guns to consider, yay!
Special Cases:
  • Double Barreled Shotguns:
    Debatable if they need special treatment, having the second barrel as a one shot magazine would be sufficient to keep the beloved pseudo double blast.
  • KSG, SRM 1216, Jungle Style:
    An old fan favorite and some recent developments, the outstanding feature being that 1)some manual interaction is required to use the complete magazine capacity (quick reload in case of the JS, rotating the mag bundle on the SRM ... four times and flipping the selector to the second tube on the KSG) and 2)the magazine 'parts' can hold different loadouts.
  • NeoStead, UTS-15:
    Is it me or did that list grow since we last had the discussion? These are a lot like the above, with the added feature of being able to feed alternately from both tubes. Those last two systems add so much complication that I think they should be left out of the initial stage entirely, instead using a normal, high capacity mag.
*We'd still tag them as belts to allow your buddy to keep you fed, but otherwise make no distinction under NMS.
Flugente
If a magazine is loaded with different ammotypes, how are you supposed to know what you are firing? A dialogue that displays every single bullet would be needed. Furthermore, do we even want that? This is unrealistic^2. If one loads a mag with bullets and then loads that, you have no way of seeing the bullets. No, see-through magazines do not let you view the chambered bullet. Take that, realism-lovers
I'd link it to the inaccurate ammo readout. If the merc can count through his whole belt, he can also tell you what's chambered. If he inserted a 'pure' mag, he'll always know what's chambered. If none of the above, tough luck. Gradual concepts for lonely mags: have a simple indicator star on the mag pic, have a summary in the description, only saying AP/T without describing the structure, open the customization menu for full information.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313096] Sat, 15 December 2012 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Bob

 
Messages:368
Registered:May 2009
Location: Behind you.
About chambers and loading integral mags with loose rounds - this could easily be fixed by making them just a special kind of NMS magazines, that are integral to the gun. Most likely handled as an attachment. I know, mentioned before, but I want to expand on the point.

This would allow for all the convenience of having a detachable NMS mag - for example storing loading order and being able to load it like any mag. Multi-barreled weapons and revolver-type weapons would simply have chambers with increased capacity. I guess you could switch out the "chamber" attachment on revolvers with removable drums.

A note on "loading order" - make each mag have one (based on last time it was filled, or some default) and allow players to "fill all mags" with one click or key press, and put "fill this mag" button/shortcut in an accessible place (eg. shift-rightClick on mag, on weapon for combat load; button in item details).

This way would also provide very tangible separation between changing mags and chambering rounds. You can attach a mag to an unloaded gun, but still need to spend APs to load a round into the chamber. Semi-auto and full-auto guns would need a self-loading tag added, so they can do that after every shot. Also, quick reloads (clicking with the reload icon) would automatically chamber a round, while swapping mags with a round in the chamber would be faster.

This gets a tiny bit complicated if you factor in the fact some guns lock the slide in retracted position on last shot, so chambering them instantly after shooting ought to be faster. Or that revolver cylinders are filled with spent casings that you have to scoop out manually if you just want to replace one or two rounds (rather than use the ejector). Or that pumping shotguns takes two movements, and in some cases you can choose to load a round via the ejection port directly into the chamber after the first one - for example in non-lethal scenarios, or load a frag-12 on other extreme.

This would be a nice opportunity to give low-power and cheap ammo a chance not to cycle some weapons (although it would probably require some power levels specified, gun-required and ammo-provided) and easily distinguish that from an actual jam. Another reason to use revolvers more often. Also, some silent weapons let you switch to fully manual action.

I'll have to agree with the ammo-magazine-caliber issue. While it is very visible in weapons stats that the ammo type dictates the "base" weapon parameters, the game is oblivious to that fact. This would require modders to redo every gun for every substitute caliber it can handle, so one moment you're holding a .357 Python, the other a .38 Python, based on the first round in the chamber (drum).

Displaying mag contents could probably be done by visualizing colored tape strips on mags (done via some ingame palette magic), solid color for one-type mags, split color to indicate mixed ammo seq. No way to indicate random mix of AP/HP/T/M/subsonic in a 200rd belt, but ought to work for most real-life applications. Just an idea, although this in itself would be a major undertaking.

I think modeling the chambering mechanics would be more tangible then actually being able to specify each magazine's contents. Then again, that alone could be dome with less effort, making the NMS seem like a lot of work for little gain. Also, even without all the UI and hassle of loading mags with specific rounds, just making mags objects that hold ammo would be a big improvement on its own.

In other words, in my opinion the order of importance would be:
1 - separate the chamber, internal mag and detachable ammo sources (loose rounds, mags, clips, belts, tubes etc.)
2 - make ammo containers items that can be refilled with some ammo type (might just be numbers, no mixing ammo types)
3 - make all ammo holders store references to ammo types instead of just the count of one ammo type.
4 - allow the player to specify the contents of ammo containers (chambers, int. mags, det. mags, belts etc.)
4.a - via xml templates (every 5th tracer, mix HP/AP, mix OO/Slug etc.)
4.b - via ammo loading UI

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313108] Sat, 15 December 2012 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lamach_Head

 
Messages:426
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars
The very way Flugente described and summarized the concept is the same as I am envisioning it. Only things unclear were explained by DepressivesBrot.

Do you like pictures? I like pictures. Here is what I had in mind for revolvers and alike... it is very roughly made, only gave it like 5 minutes.. However this stupid forum resizes pictures on its own, making them very ugly. So here's link to a normal quality pic: http://postimage.org/image/ml14flu2p/

http://s8.postimage.org/ml14flu2p/revolverprev1.jpg

The red color represents type of bullet. The player holding ammo in cursor can either drop it on the gun to load it full, or open the desc box and load it as he pleases one by one.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313110] Sat, 15 December 2012 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
Don't hit me, but did anybody consider unifying grenades and ammunition into one system while we're at it? After the Masterkey, there's virtually no difference in applications for either and it would streamline stuff like the 40mm buckshot/flechette rounds. Both can explode, both can be used in standalone/addon weapons, both support the different firing modes, the only difference would be to give the cartridge in question a tag for ballistic trajectory/throwing cth or high velocity/gun cth.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313111] Sat, 15 December 2012 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
The whole code concerning firing modes and the different handling of launchers and guns is at its very limit in my view. The corresponding code reeks of hacks and is only kept together by virtual duct-tape. It would be prudent to also redo that. Unfortunately, this will get in the way of attachment handling a bit, and create more instances where contradicting code would have to coexist.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313112] Sat, 15 December 2012 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sardonic_wrath

 
Messages:48
Registered:June 2011
To me it seems most of the problems with playability and coding difficulty of NMS are connected to chamber & mixed magazines.
However those don't have an impact on the main advantages of NMS.

Having a chamber makes it possible to overload the gun, or to fire it without a magizine. Both wasn't possible before, and I think we could do without it.
As for mixed magazines, apart from tracer ammunition I don't quite get what this would be used for. I'm thinking, having AP and HP ammunition mixed would require to hit the exact same spot to have the desired effect, no? (Speaking about RL, not sure how its handled ingame). I'm probably missing something, please enlighten me Wink
(edit: ammunition shortage might be a scenario for mixxing to be useful, altough not a common one)

I'm not suggesting to go for something half-assed or to give up on this yet, I am just suggestion to go for a compromise instead of dropping the whole thing, in case we don't find solutions to those problems.

Flugente
While the idea of having a separate bullet in the chamber may sound pretty neat, it will become pretty annoying. If I put a 30-rnd mag into a an M16, I would expect to be get a 30-rnd magazine if I unload it. And not having to unlaod it again somehow to get a single bullet that I then have to put into the magazine. Yes, I know this is exactly what happens if I load a gun and load a bullet, have done that myself, thank you. But this is insanely tedious.

I don't think there is a solution to that. It's gonna be either unrealistic or tedious, no way around that. I'd settle fo the first, as almost every other game does. Even 7.62, which is the most gun-nutty game I know of Wink

[Updated on: Sat, 15 December 2012 21:26] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313118] Sat, 15 December 2012 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
Flugente
While the idea of having a separate bullet in the chamber may sound pretty neat, it will become pretty annoying. If I put a 30-rnd mag into a an M16, I would expect to be get a 30-rnd magazine if I unload it. And not having to unlaod it again somehow to get a single bullet that I then have to put into the magazine. Yes, I know this is exactly what happens if I load a gun and load a bullet, have done that myself, thank you. But this is insanely tedious.
Just so the latest talk on this isn't forgotten:
Make a distinction between detaching a magazine and replacing a magazine, guessing at the likely intention of the user. If you are detaching a magazine, the likely intent is to completely unload the gun. If you're swapping it for something else, the likely intent is to reload. It's not perfect, but it should do the desired thing most of the time.
So cases:
1)1 in chamber, <=29 in the mag, detach mag: chamber is automatically cleared and the round added to the mag
2)1 in chamber, 30 in the mag, detach mag: chamber is automatically cleared and the round dropped to inventory
3)1 in chamber, X in the mag, swap with other mag: keep round chambered and switch magazines

Note: All examples refer to the bog standard AR with 30rd magazines and closed bolt.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313205] Sun, 16 December 2012 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faalagorn

 
Messages:157
Registered:February 2012
Location: Poland
First of all, thanks for bringing attention back on the topic, and Flugente and Depressive for mentioning the ammunition and explosive issues.

Seems like more or less all major problems have been explained with possible solutions, or at least brought into the light, however I have a question about loose rounds.

I remember that in Brigade E5 ammo box was a separate item that could exist even without any bullets in it - how would the loose rounds be handled in our NMS? Will the loose rounds be pictured as an carton box always, just like magazines are right now, with the box magically disappearing and appearing when needed (that could simplify ammo storage a bit), or will the box be just another type of "magazine" or a container, with the exception that it can't be used to load the gun directly (even for guns with no mags or internal systems) and co-exist with the loose bullet item? That could mean, there's even more microing, keeping all the boxes around, but on the other hand that could be a nice addition, allowing boxes to fit more bullets in a single inventory slot (but still not saving weight) and possibly to load a magazine faster? Each box could also allow to fit a mixed kinds of ammo types if user wants to save space if they would be treated as a magazine, with some quick button to fill all boxes with the appropriate ammo types.

EDIT: Oh, just to add on topic: Beside Brigade E5 and 7.62 there's one more game I know that uses separate magazines and ammunition - it's a small independly developped polish browser-based post-apo game called Muarab. I think it can be played in English too, but I haven't played it lately. Whole game is quite crude, but it could still be worth mentioning it as an curiosity.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 December 2012 22:53] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313209] Sun, 16 December 2012 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
Good question actually. So far, I've used the 'pile of ammo'-item literally, so retail boxes would be the logical extension (and no extra code besides making sure they show in BR under the right sections like they currently do). They'd also be the preferred way to carry spares, since stack beats clutter.
On the other hand, different magazines serve a purpose. They let us use different qualities, different sizes, balance cool guns by having tons of ammo but only 2 mags available, or the C-Mag we just found being the only one ... But bawkses? I'd say boxes and crates should be 'spawn anywhere', lets not make logistics unnecessarily harder (unless this poses problems due to systems having to coexist in the same mode or something)


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313380] Thu, 20 December 2012 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00

 
Messages:1134
Registered:September 2006
Location: Czech Republic

it is posible amke ammo witch ap/tracer abilities ? hardened stell penetrator & tracer bullet combinet in one ... able penetrating armor/helping keep gun aimed on autofire. or anti armor able set target one fire/burning thx
Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313383] Thu, 20 December 2012 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
Always been possible, just play around with the XML Editor.
Please take stuff that doesn't relate to Design and/or Implementation of NMS elsewhere, thanks.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313384] Thu, 20 December 2012 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00

 
Messages:1134
Registered:September 2006
Location: Czech Republic

ok sorry... my mistake..
Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #313690] Sat, 29 December 2012 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:298
Registered:November 2008
I made a crude concept of how quick loading UI could look. This would be something for people that dont want to bother with custom loading every magazine. You would be able to load single or all magazines in stack with just few clicks.


http://i.imgur.com/b4hmO.jpg

[Updated on: Sat, 29 December 2012 18:18] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #315113] Sun, 03 February 2013 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince7403

 
Messages:146
Registered:February 2012
Is the New Magazine System still under development? Did anyone ever inherit the partial code? The maximalist in me craves proper magazine compatibility!

Thanks to everyone participating so far.
Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #315114] Sun, 03 February 2013 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I don't think it ever was under development, and I don't think it ever will - due to the many many unclear things in this, adn the unholy amount of coding/xml work required.

Edit: Apart from ChrisL's stuff. Propably lost.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 February 2013 01:15] by Moderator



Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335432] Wed, 03 September 2014 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
veedotja2

 
Messages:88
Registered:April 2012
Location: New York
I know it's an old thread. Still a good idea.

DepressivesBrot

Loose Ammunition:
'Pile of Ammo' is preferable to the point of being a no-brainer due to the significant resource savings. Should come with a money-deduct mechanic to split when needed.
Magazines and Clips:
At the end of the day, there are only Clips and Magazines. For the purpose of implementation, a belt is a magazine*. Unless you want to add another layer of complications, all belts are non-disintegrating. A Garand clip is also a Magazine in this light. C-Mags are yet another magazine, no adapters needed. Loading order is always LIFO, it's set by the magazines and the belts and clips don't care, so they follow. A clip is a magazine that doesn't attach to a gun but instead only deposits ammo to another magazine faster than you can reload one at a time.
General Gun Types:
For the purpose of this discussion, we'll only differentiate between open bolt and closed bolt (closed bolt can hold one round without any kind of magazine, open can't) and internal vs. detachable magazine. I tend towards making internal mags simply inseparable attachments, for consistency and treating them all the same internally. Which leaves us with only two types of guns to consider, yay!
Special Cases:
...


You are the closest to getting it conceptually. The more I think about it the greater the problem really is. You can't abstract away very much because everything you fail to implement quickly rears its head later.
First I thought the concept of the chamber could be abstracted away or ignored, but what about low capacity guns? You might really want the extra round.
Then I thought why do we need a magazine "item," but it really seems to be necessary even with all the added complexity it brings.
Mixed ammo isn't just tracer. There's your shotguns, and the ability to lead with a lockbuster or buckshot then hit 'em with a slug.
Mixed mags make sense if you have a .357 gun but only .38 ammo is available (or .45LC/.410, .44 Spl/.44 mag, .223/5.56mm etc), this can be a solved problem with a new ammo system.
I can envision having loose rounds of different types but want to assemble a full mixed mag to avoid combat reloads.

My only thing to add at this point is why do we need to maintain backwards compatibility if it causes so much trouble?
Are there people still downloading new builds of 1.13 that insist on OIV, OAS, and will also want an OMS? This thread is 3 years old and the old posts mentioned this. But anyone keeping up with JA2 modding today after all this time is probably using covert ops, zombies, dirt, overheating, food, militia supply, drivable vehicles, merc backgrounds, etc and so on. A NMS is hardly a straw that broke the camel's back. Nobody HAS to top up a gun or mix a mag! That micromanagement will just go unused.

Modders also need a good base for 1.13 going forward, and 1.13 is designed as a base for modders, not just for Vanilla JA2 players.

Maybe a simpler version for Vanilla players who don't want so much complexity is possible to implement. Honestly, it's 1.13's huge size that created the complexity that we are trying to manage ex post facto. Vanilla players now have to deal with so many weapons, magazines, ammo types (AET, Glaser, flechette, etc.), flashbangs, radios, and all the other odd ammo and explosives Vanilla players now accept.

Show of hands, who wouldn't play 1.13 anymore with a revamped magazine and ammo system made default?

But if maintining the old code is part of the 1.13 culture and all new features MUST be optional to stay in the main branch I'll mention it no more. But I'm sure just making a "simple mode" in a NMS will restore the Vanilla feel.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2014 20:39] by Moderator

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335433] Wed, 03 September 2014 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
VeeDotJA2
Are there people still downloading new builds of 1.13 that insist on OIV, OAS, and will also want an OMS?
Yes.


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335440] Thu, 04 September 2014 00:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Whatever we do, vanilla still has to be playable. This is fundamental. This is the reason we still carry about 640x480 resolution and still maintain old traits and such. Not doing so would result in 1.13 not being an improvement of JA2, but merely a (very detailed and complex) mod. This is the reason any feature should be optional. This is also the reason some stuff does NOT belong in the trunk. Otherwise it becomes a software cemetery where any new code is just dumped into for the sake of having more code.

However finetuned and easy to use NMS might be, I still don't see it ever fully replacing the old system. The community would be ill-advised to suddenly ditch an old and proven integral part of the gameplay (this statement is likely going to bite me back in the ass at some point Smile ). Very old forum members might remember the A*-Star pathing incident.

A somewhat minor sideeffect would also be that once this were the sole system magazines were handled, ALL mods using this exe woul not work. Period. They would likely require new items and item values. Forcing change in such a blunt way would not go well with modders (also, we would get swamped in threads where people complain about their mods being unplayable and asking why we break all mods with stuff they did not ask for).

As to NMS itself: The internal mechanics needed are pretty clear. The user interface isn't, for some parts I see no solution (or better phrased: no solution that would be fun to play with). Work would be tons of. What I still don't get is what would be the point of all this. Mixing ammo does not give you a benefit when shooting someone ingame. There is no magical 'if the first bullet is AP, it opens the way for the HP bullet' part. We can already define ammotypes to have every nth bullet be a tracer. Mixing calibers would add even more work, and how is that relevant? What sniper rifle/assault rifle/machine gun used lategame would benefit from this?


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335446] Thu, 04 September 2014 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
veedotja2

 
Messages:88
Registered:April 2012
Location: New York
Flugente
Whatever we do, vanilla still has to be playable. This is fundamental. This is the reason we still carry about 640x480 resolution and still maintain old traits and such. Not doing so would result in 1.13 not being an improvement of JA2, but merely a (very detailed and complex) mod. This is the reason any feature should be optional. This is also the reason some stuff does NOT belong in the trunk. Otherwise it becomes a software cemetery where any new code is just dumped into for the sake of having more code.

... A bunch of good points ...


Got it, I think I get the reasoning behind maintaining the old JA2 code. I think that I saw so much new stuff added in the last couple of years I sometimes wondered what was the point. It's your fault, Flugente, for adding so much content! Smile Most of the new stuff seems to be *off* by default in the .ini file. Though cleaning kits and food show up in the game even when those features are off.

It's a little sad about NMS because it seems like it would have been a good idea if done early on. Some other tactical games seem to pull it off okay. And I think that there are advantages in realism and NMS even has potential to *simplify* inventory management on some ways. But these don't seem to outweigh the compexity of the work, so there we are.

There is a tradition of micromanagement in 1.13, the NIV LBE is a good example of detail taken to the extreme, a "tons of guns" game shows extreme detail in breadth and scope of weapons. Hell, the NAS is incredibly complex with the multitudes of combinations and transformations, let alone what it must have been like to code it! But looks like NAS and NIV advantages made it worthwhile for a coder to tackle.

I'll leave it alone, until such time as I can do it myself. I've got Visual Studio now and my C language is coming along. I'm used to Java in Eclipse so nobody hold your breath waiting to see my code butchery. Feels like I'm climbing a mountain here.

Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335451] Thu, 04 September 2014 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1454
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
VeeDotJA2
Sorry if it was mentioned before, but the magazine system was implemented in ja2'005 mod, you can try to play with it and see if it worth the efforts needed.
As for me, it's definitely interesting, but it adds a lot of micromanagement even with vanilla guns, and with 1.13 item mods (700+ guns) things will become even worse =)


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335454] Thu, 04 September 2014 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Wait. If it was already implemented, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere in this thread?


Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #335455] Thu, 04 September 2014 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
Probably because most of the Russian mods aren't that well known around here so nobody remembered that feature.
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/247543/Re:_JA2_'005#Post247543

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2014 13:25] by Moderator



Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335456] Thu, 04 September 2014 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1454
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
Flugente
It's a mod on completely different source and is not compatible with 1.13, also it's in russian lang in base (but it can use english res files afaik).

But at least if anyone really interested how it's implemented and feels in game he can take a look.

A short video demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu04O_B0PQU&feature=youtu.be[/video]

youtube link

EDIT: it would be definitely good having new optional magazine system in next (year?) stable release and maybe a weapon picture customization, too =) (it's also implemented in ja2'005 mod and it's fun to play with)

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2014 16:52] by Moderator



Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335459] Thu, 04 September 2014 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:300
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Ooh, so beautiful!

Thanks for the video Sevenfm, you made my day!
Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335461] Thu, 04 September 2014 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
The manual cocking alone was worth seeing. Good stuff.

Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335477] Thu, 04 September 2014 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Regarding that video: Eh, where is the 'load every single bullet into the mag' part? Isn't that what apparently would be the point of the entire thing? All I've seen is mags and loading mags with bullets at once, or did I miss something important? No offense to the mod though.

@Sevenfm: If there are those russian mods that implemented stuff years ago, those would be interesting. Hmm. Could you elaborate on what features we do not have today the old russians had? Perhaps in a video series Very Happy ?


Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335479] Thu, 04 September 2014 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
They left that detail out for streamlining Wink


Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335483] Fri, 05 September 2014 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:300
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Flugente
Regarding that video: Eh, where is the 'load every single bullet into the mag' part? Isn't that what apparently would be the point of the entire thing? All I've seen is mags and loading mags with bullets at once, or did I miss something important? No offense to the mod though.


There is no 'load every single bullet into the mag', you're right. Although there are other small interesting features for gun handling maniacs, like :
- Manual Chambering on magazine load
- Revolver speed loaders (that are not consumed when used to reload a weapon and can be refilled.)
- Empty magazines you can load/unload and refill (i suppose, not shown in the video but seems logical)
Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335485] Fri, 05 September 2014 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3173
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Manual chambering already happens on many shotguns and sniper rifles, so this isn't new (nowadays, might have been in '05).

So, just to be clear: You people want a system that adds nothing new, but requires having additional items during reloading, for absolutely no gain? I guess I am asking the same thing over and over, because I just can't grasp it.


Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System[message #335488] Fri, 05 September 2014 01:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3788
Registered:July 2009
I've come to one conclusion by now: You can't sell the new system to someone who hears of it and doesn't immediately say 'Whoa, cool' after another one has already been established for years. What we clearly need is a tacticool redneck coder!
There simply is no single big advantage to convince people, all NMS really does is to do stuff differently for people with a different taste but it's neither significantly better nor worse than Vanilla. Consider this: If NMS was the Day-1 system, who would seriously consider replacing that with a 'simpler' one now?

That said, the more or less complete list of 'advantages'
- you can load differently sized mags without the need for game-y adapters
- you can create magazines of different quality with the same caliber&capacity
- you can have magazine status affect reliability
- acquiring rare magazines can be a challenge and further consideration for picking equipment. e.g. you may still carry for a tight situation, but you can't just dump mag after mag for the whole battle
- and the all time favorite: custom loads Wink
Yeah, I know the Russians didn't include it, probably greatly reducing complexity.

Btw, although often criticized, there really isn't any difference in effort between clicking a stack of mags on a crate to just fill them uniformly and clicking a crate on a gun to create mags.


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