Home » BIT COMPOSER GAMES » JA Online (by Cliffhanger Productions) » new screens
Re: new screens[message #284133] Mon, 20 June 2011 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
taoteching
Okay I see. You guys are separating yourself from Back In Action now? You both copied a 12 year old game's style, and then copied the style of various people's free works on the game. Time will tell Casanova.


What the heck are you talking? Yes 9/11 was an inside Job but I do not work for anybody here ...

Dude, give JAO a chance, step out of your 12 Years old living room, meet some new ppl - It's fun i can guarantee!

There is a simple difference:

JAO has an good Creative Director + at least some love for the Genre/Game.
JA BIA has the worst Creative Director and Marketing Director ever and there is no love or understanding at all.

If you cannot see this, than nothing expect 1.13 will ever amuse you again!
Re: new screens[message #284139] Mon, 20 June 2011 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
1)Then why the hell are you trying so hard to sell ideas?
2)I have Jagged Alliance 2 Online, why would I want a knock off?
3)JA:BIA + JA:O who cares? If you have not realized....the general perception of both HERE is not good.
4)Online's marketing director sucks too.
5)I do not even play 1.13.


Who the hell are these games being made for?

If you are trying to change my mind, what exactly are you trying to change?

Re: new screens[message #284158] Mon, 20 June 2011 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:808
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
As long as these devs understand what their colleagues are doing wrong here I have trust in them..
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=284080#Post284080


Re: new screens[message #284160] Mon, 20 June 2011 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
apl1985

 
Messages:5
Registered:June 2011
Now that is just awful. They fail to realize that the character design and detail is just as important as the tactical aspect of JA. The mix of tactics and RPG is what I like in the original games anyway. Also I agree with Slax last post, games need to be worked on with love and not just rushed out for profit. Call me nostalgic but I'm sure that's why people still cares about the original Jagged Alliance.

[Updated on: Mon, 20 June 2011 23:28] by Moderator

Re: new screens[message #284162] Mon, 20 June 2011 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:139
Registered:September 2009
@ primetide

Let's just say that now that we're certain that BIA has given a shotgun a blowjob.
The little hope we can find after a decade. Not completely happy with the entire Online thingy.
But if you can give us a game that at least related to JA2. Personally i would support it and hope that you'll be given the JA3 project.
You've already proved to have more balls then all the others by coming into the lions den (Bear's pit).
So far I'm hopeful of what I'm seeing. The faces don't match perfectly but Come on it's from 2D drawn art to 3D modeling.

Show us what you can do. But remember we like TB... :goodnews:

[Updated on: Wed, 22 June 2011 18:31] by Moderator

Re: new screens[message #284163] Mon, 20 June 2011 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:139
Registered:September 2009
apl1985
Now that is just awful. They fail to realize that the character design and detail is just as important as the tactical aspect of JA.


I disagree. In a way. The models in JA2 had no discerning features (beside camo for shadow) on who they were (okay maybe you know their color scheme). And to get 2D art to 3D is HARD! Sure they still need some work but don't expect to see a perfect resemblance of the 2D art.
Re: new screens[message #284164] Mon, 20 June 2011 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
After every new preview video and article bears more bad news below the (bought?) praise, you'd have to take some colossal wrong turns to reach the same level of failure as BiA.
So I, for one, am cautiously optimistic that JA:O is gonna be a decent game in the spirit of JA.


Re: new screens[message #284166] Tue, 21 June 2011 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
DepressivesBrot
After every new preview video and article bears more bad news below the (bought?) praise, you'd have to take some colossal wrong turns to reach the same level of failure as BiA.
So I, for one, am cautiously optimistic that JA:O is gonna be a decent game in the spirit of JA.


we are aiming for just a tiny level of failure Wink

Seriously so -as TAO pointed out: If you have JA2 and want that exact game, why play another? I for one have no intention of selling the game (or in our case giving it for free) to people who have no wish for it. I can respect that. We are subjecting our game and ideas to the intense scrutiny of this board because we think the community and hard core fans have valuable input and we need to be able to stand up to that and at least try to incorporate what we can.

That being said - If we were to do a game for only the fans, we would be better off doing a decent mod. However our goal is to make JAO accessible to a wider audience (well, if we don't the whole thing wouldn't be paying our office rent let alone our wages) while keeping the spirit of the original. Simply because we must find enough players to make the game at least cover costs, or we won't be able to sustain it. I am sure we will fail in some regards (and in the eyes of some here we may already have by simply attempting it) and hope we succeed in others.

Time will tell- and the people here will probably tell us even more bluntly Wink
Re: new screens[message #284175] Tue, 21 June 2011 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
taoteching
1)Then why the hell are you trying so hard to sell ideas?
2)I have Jagged Alliance 2 Online, why would I want a knock off?
3)JA:BIA + JA:O who cares? If you have not realized....the general perception of both HERE is not good.
4)Online's marketing director sucks too.
5)I do not even play 1.13.

Who the hell are these games being made for?If you are trying to change my mind, what exactly are you trying to change?


1) What are you trying to accomplish here? Just let me like this game plz ...
2) Do what you want Sir
3) Since when? Do you have some statistics or what?
4) LOL - no they don't - they are definitely not throwing pre-alpha-footage to us ... they don't lie or even try to fool us, like BC did.
5) Then it's about time Wink

You don't play 1.13 and probably not total influence or other turn based online games, so you should not judge preemptively on JAO...
Re: new screens[message #284178] Tue, 21 June 2011 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Played them both.

In and out.

You obviously do not even read posts because I posted the stuff on this page.

Re: new screens[message #284220] Tue, 21 June 2011 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
"Well it looks cool, but it certainly reminds me of that Russian online game. (The name escapes me at the moment) Total...something..."

Because of that sentence i should know, that you played it "in and out"? I'm such a bad human being because i like JAO aren't I? Smile

Well Tao i don't get it, you played "both" Ja 1.13? and TI "in and out", tell me why JAO should be that bad, that I'm not allowed to be a fan of the 1st hour? You see, i try to turn this discussion into something ... into something that is constructive.
Re: new screens[message #284239] Tue, 21 June 2011 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Okay, quote where I said JAO should be bad. Quote where I said you could not be a fan. Quote how speculation is constructive.

Re: new screens[message #284245] Tue, 21 June 2011 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
taoteching
JA:BIA + JA:O who cares?


Why should it be that Bad, that nobody cares?

taoteching
Okay I see. You guys are separating yourself from Back In Action now? You both copied a 12 year old game's style, and then copied the style of various people's free works on the game. Time will tell Casanova.


I said already in the post before, that i don't work for BC but you are ignoring that.
Thats the moment where you don't let me be a Fan.

taoteching
Quote how speculation is constructive.

Aren't you the guy who claims that i do work for BC? ...

Are you serious to continue here Tao? I'm just a Fan, after the frustration with BIA im very happy with JAO thats all dude, so can we plz go back to the Topic? Do me a favor :umbrella:

[Updated on: Tue, 21 June 2011 17:22] by Moderator

Re: new screens[message #284251] Tue, 21 June 2011 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
What have you been waiting for?
Re: new screens[message #284260] Tue, 21 June 2011 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
So, bringing this back to topic, gamigo has released the e3 pictures- unfortunately in a package with the other games' - so it is quite a bit to download. Nothing spectatcular there- the pics on our page are roughly similar... but for the completist I thought I should mention it. big download file here

Re: new screens[message #284277] Tue, 21 June 2011 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
I don't know - this is maybe exactly like your founding concept here but i cannot see any customization on the mercs. Since the game is free, i thought we can buy additional equipment and outfits for our mercs, to individualize them. Because that would be so ridicules awesome. I know it's kind of an Barby and Ken for Boys thing, but i would love to visually customize my mercs. :nerd:
Re: new screens[message #284282] Tue, 21 June 2011 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
apl1985

 
Messages:5
Registered:June 2011
The sceenshots still looks good to me! I like the artwork too. I also hope for outfit customization, not pay for advantage but rather for visual variation. Anyway I think this one actually got the potential to make it. This is my personal opinion of course.
Re: new screens[message #284360] Wed, 22 June 2011 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Okay here some more of my thoughts:

The overall color setup is very well done, yellow spot + beige+green and red highlights. Thats exactly the color palette i have in mind, when i think of Jagged Alliance. In that context I do like the boxes with the green plan on it and the red/green container.

The shallow depth of field is a very cool feature. This adds a board / tabletop game kind of feeling.
Cutting trees off would be perfect but since you can rotate the camera + shallow depth of field, this should do the job.

I like the Player and AI 3D models. Like i said before, there is no extra equipment, but what i can see so far looks solid. Nice shader/bump mapping effects on the clothes!

Shadows are a little bit to hard and sharp edged for my taste, dunno if there is feathered edge supported with your engine?

I don't like that every character has the same basic model. There should be a big-body model or a bad ass model with different animations.

Re: new screens[message #284421] Wed, 22 June 2011 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
Equipment you can buy and it will be displayed on the mercs as well - we just haven't got that feature in yet. We also plan on some over the top stuff to dress up your kens...ah..mercs.

There will be three basic models: male human, female human, big guy. As it is usually played in a sort of isometric perspective, the model style actually does not make that much of a difference. The clothing creates much more differentiation. Animations are costly (for performace, download as well as to create) so we are going with the basic variations- once the game is out, we plan to add more and different types.

The shadows are indeed sharp- any more detail on that and the game wouldn't run properly in most mid-spec computers.
Re: new screens[message #284435] Wed, 22 June 2011 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
apl1985

 
Messages:5
Registered:June 2011
So there will be no difference in faces ingame? They will all look the same but with different color hair?
Re: new screens[message #284490] Thu, 23 June 2011 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:258
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Very good, i think now it depends on balance, coversystem/sightlines, sound/animation.

I hope we will be able to watch some motion pictures in near future :partygirl:

[Updated on: Thu, 23 June 2011 15:37] by Moderator

Re: new screens[message #284512] Thu, 23 June 2011 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3395
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
madlab-thread?
Re: new screens[message #284532] Thu, 23 June 2011 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
They will look different-I am not sure how much detail we will manage to have, though. So not 1 to 1 to the painted potraits.
Re: new screens[message #284765] Sun, 26 June 2011 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1038
Registered:January 2009
This actually looks promising, but that's probably just the disappointment of BIA tempered with a sliver of hope.

A few points though:

#1

Judging from the screen shots, it looks like you have stuck with the original 25AP system, if there are "Hundreds of weapons, armor and equipment" would the 100AP system not offer much more variation and customisation, or are there just going to be a lot of generic weapons with different skins?

#2

Due to licensing, BIA had to record new dialogue for the Mercs, how are you planning to deal with this?

#3

I have played "Free to play" games before and have no problem with Micro Transactions, so i think if you can deliver a decent JA after ten years, you will have no problem getting people to part with their cash if it is done in a balanced and rewarding fashion.

It seems to me that earlier attempts by developers had the same approach as drug dealers, get them hooked for cheap, then hit them with the heavy stuff. People are not stupid, if your product is good enough, they will support it.

There is no need to try and dupe them into buying material if the core game is solid. My point being, if you do this correctly and honestly from the beginning, you have in JAO, a perfect vehicle in which to exploit/reward people for many years to come.

The proof is in this very forum where people still get a buzz from new additions, weapons, etc...

Here's hoping your business venture can meet our need to micro manage somewhere in the middle.

Edit: Here are some of the JAO assets from E3:

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/irishrebell/jagged_alliance_chars4.pnghttp://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/irishrebell/jagged_alliance_chars3.pnghttp://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/irishrebell/jagged_alliance_chars2.pnghttp://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/irishrebell/jagged_alliance_chars1.pnghttp://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/irishrebell/jagged_alliance_chars5.png



[Updated on: Sun, 26 June 2011 16:50] by Moderator



Re: new screens[message #284767] Sun, 26 June 2011 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Off_Topic
#2

Due to licensing, BIA had to record new dialogue for the Mercs, how are you planning to deal with this?
Really? Wasn't the official 'reason' (I'd call it lame excuse) 'quality issues'? At least that's what they said in the last 'preview'.



Re: new screens[message #284768] Sun, 26 June 2011 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1038
Registered:January 2009
Hmmm, i can try and find it, but i definitely read somewhere that it was due to licensing.

It mentions it here
Quote:

These included the superior stealth operative Shadow; expert sniper Lynx; and hand-to-hand combat specialist Keith "Blood" Hansen. Also included were journeyman stealth operative Igor "Did we mention he's Ivan's nephew?" Dolvich; rookie brawler Grizzly; and fresh-faced bomb squad member Barry Unger. (While the mercs will still vary in skill levels--and hiring prices--just as they did in Jagged Alliance 2, they will sadly not have the same voices or even the same actors for licensing reasons, though we're told that most, if not all of the dialogue will remain the same, even if it is performed by new actors.)

[Updated on: Sun, 26 June 2011 16:56] by Moderator



Re: new screens[message #284839] Mon, 27 June 2011 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
Re voices: Actually, there are some issues with the sound files and their compression- and the voices do have some rights issues attached, as JA has a troubled past (license-wise), as you all know. So we aren't allowed to use them either. We will try and use the same voices BC is using (hoping they do a good job on recording) simply due to budget restraints. We do not have the money (yet) to record loads of voices for ourselves. If the game takes off, this may change.

Re Micro-Payment: I think there is always a fine line between drug-dealer approaches and a fair quid pro quo exchange in free to play. That being said, we do have to earn money with the game, so giivng everything away for free is not an option. Our goal is to offer opportunities to pay for making your life easier (for example if you want to use "instant heals") but to allow those, who can stand a challenge to go without. Instead for those we offer more personalization of mercs etc.

Re AP- we honestly thought about a 100 point system and will land somewhere in the middle (namely going up to say 40 points at max). The reason is simply this: Many people shy away dfrom high numbers and a lower number suports them grasping the "cost" of an action intuitively. Now before you flame me: we have actually tested this on potential players (both old time JA players and new) and for some reason the 100 system did not sit right with either group. One can argue relative merist all day, but our approach is simply: If the players don't like it, we have toi have a VERY good reason to do it. And number of wepaons isn't one. Weapons can be different in many ways: Durability, Recoil, Burst AP per shot, Range, Damage, Aim, Magazine Size etc.
So we do hjave enough ways to differentiatre weapons (last count I think we had 10 stats per weapon)
Re: new screens[message #284860] Mon, 27 June 2011 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1038
Registered:January 2009
Cool, thanks for the very honest answers.

Re Micro-Payment: I wasn't suggesting giving everything away, actually it was the opposite. Having an heroic experience with another free to play game, i happily spent close to 100 euros but became disillusioned when game breaking upgrade after upgrade was released with no breathing space in between.

Most people were happy to customise ad nauseum, buy new weapons etc... but felt they were getting very little in return from the developers for their money. Naively they imagined that as they (1 million+) spent money on the game they would see minor/major problems addressed.

I stopped giving these guys my money, even though i enjoyed it and was willing to pay, for the following reasons:

Cons:

1. Limited edition items that were later part of special offers.
2. Cheating was rampant and seemed to be tolerated.
3. Promotions that only included certain countries.
4. Lottery styled supply drops where for every useful/rare item, you got ten items you didn't want/need.
5. Very slow release of maps and content.
6. Beta like chops and changes even though the game was "released" and accepting payments.
7. Being overcharged to heal/repair.
8. When a character leveled, very poor/few items were unlocked to be bought, seemed more like an afterthought. At max lvl, no real reward or follow up.
9. XP boosts that operated on an hourly basis rather than when you were signed in, so if you buy 24hrs, you maybe get 4-5 hrs worth.

Pros:

1. Seasonal content/items.
2. Occasional free codes/promotions/sales.
3. Ability to customise characters/buy weapons/level up.
4. Limited edition items (see no.1 above).
5. Ability to pay with Paypal/SMS text.
6. Eventual reduction in price of older items.

I am aware the developers of this game were breaking new ground at the time, exploring every possible angle in order to get people to part with their cash in a new fashion, but the one thing they forgot to do was keep the game balanced and playable, thereby keeping the customer happy.

Of course you'll have to try some of these angles yourself in order to make money, but as i said, if the game play and buyable content is good enough you won't need to. Like most people that play JA, i'm an adult with disposable income, if i enjoy something i'll spend money on it.

You seem like a decent guy, i hope you're successful with it.









Re: new screens[message #284919] Tue, 28 June 2011 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
I think me being here shows, we are taking players seriously (and of course thanks for the nice guy). We have of course planned all sorts of things to help monetize, but honestly - as you example shows - the core game needs to be able to support that, if we want to susatin our player base.
While ftom my own experience I can tell you that to seriously balance any game with items (and someone with money may always "break" the game to a degree) is a marathon. Even say Starcraft, with gazillions of hours of testing, balancing and rebalancing was still finetuning the game years after release. So I cannot promise we won't have major balancing shift in one item or the other further down the road. I can promise we try to keep those to a minimum and that we will do our best to listen to the players where possible (not meaning every single one will get their wishes, but treating each with respect).

An MMO is always kind of like managing a bucket of flies- there is just so much movement, it sometimes becomes hard to see what's what.
Re: new screens[message #284934] Tue, 28 June 2011 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fozzie

 
Messages:184
Registered:April 2010
Location: Germany
Now that you mentioned it: how big exactly will the MMO part in the game be? Will it be possible to completely shut out/ignore other players? Cause I'm really not into the whole online gaming thing and would refrain from even trying it if there's too much MMO stuff that's integral to the overall experience. I even gave up on Diablo 3 a long time ago because of that stupid "BattleNet only" policy.

I'd really prefer being able to play the whole thing offline as some kind of a browser plugin or something, which is probably not going to happen, but keeping it "single player" should at least be a viable option.
Re: new screens[message #284946] Tue, 28 June 2011 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
primetide

 
Messages:79
Registered:March 2011
actually we allow for any player to not get into the whole MMO thing at all. It may mean you have a harder time in some missions (without co-op), but by and large there will always be single player missions available.
Re: new screens[message #284951] Tue, 28 June 2011 20:21 Go to previous message
Fozzie

 
Messages:184
Registered:April 2010
Location: Germany
Good to hear! (or read, for that matter...)
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