Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » [IDEA] Camouflage System; Brainstorming
[IDEA] Camouflage System; Brainstorming[message #283541] Wed, 15 June 2011 21:50 Go to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283600] Thu, 16 June 2011 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
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Camouflage Kits:
  • Only for bare skin (face/hands) even though you can't see it InGame (just for imagination).
    - Could be visible when draw over camouflage InGame f.e.: Skin (Face/Hands) 10%
  • Provides 10% camouflage.
  • Not cumulative useable. Meaning just one use which provide a maximum of 10% camouflage.
  • Could be selfpainted so each time you are in strategic window a script checks how much you
    wear out of camouflage kit and will repaint your skin automatically
  • As long as not used negation of:
    - 10% (5%face,neck/5%hands) for normal equiped soldiers
    - 15% (10%face,neck/5%hands) for ghillie suit equiped soldiers.
Fine. That definitly makes a difference between camoed clothes and camo paint and does not allow to supplement one with the other.

Quote:
2) Clothes and Hair is what you get before wearing any armor and is determined of A.I.M/M.E.R.C./Arulcan's or what you have choosen in your I.M.P. creation.
Not good. This cannot be changed during the game by the player regardless how many camoed items you have. Moreover, colors assigned in those files are (most likely) meant to visibly distinctive characters from each other and are not meant to reflect what they are realy wearing: neither the enemy would enter a modern battlefield in redcoats nor would the militia be running around in blue uniforms.

Quote:
Some certain LBE equipment has double camouflage valuesk. I thought a lot what to do with it but for now it seems to be O.K. Only thing often discussed is what happens when your LBE gear is over your camouflaged vest. Hm, a mean value could be the solution in relation to the max-camo-restrition of a certain body part.
I would suggest to not give LBE any (postive) camo value unless a LBE vest worn over the shirt or ballistival vest: All LBE, like butt packs, increase the size of your siluette. Setting aside extreme examples, like someone wearing a pink t-shirt but had hung a couple of fully camoed bags around his body, applying any LBE would not improve your camouflage because it only would make things more difficult to spott that wouldn't be there when you not were wearing that item of LBE.

Some LBE might in fact give negative camo values. For example a butt pack that not is camoed would be easyly visible even when you otherwise use all camo you can get.

Quote:
Ghillie Suit:
Two types:

Selfmade:
- can only be prepared from Snipers/Rangers.
In that case an special assignment (useable in woodland/desert regions) guaranted a proper Ghillie Suit
in a time consuming process of 8h.
You choose your assignment "Prepare Ghillie Suit" and which type "Woodland/Desert".

- Optional: - The amount of camouflage depend on experience level:
I would in general add the option to make "selfmade" camo for certain items, for example for a helmet with camo net. The ghillie would be the only item that allows upping that to 100% (even a fabricated ghillie would draw its camo mostly from grass, leaves, etc the wearer adds in the field).

I would also suggest to make that experience-dependent and to not add a certain trait as a requirment (wearing a full ghillie indeed should give some disadvantages - moving, round vision ect - so that no one comes up with the idea to enter Orta basement in ghillie).

[Updated on: Thu, 16 June 2011 15:21] by Moderator

Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283612] Thu, 16 June 2011 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283617] Thu, 16 June 2011 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
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It's more of a luxus to have something like that InGame so it's not tragically without it.
It would be nice if that would be the other way round: I give someone a green shirt and he is now displayed by "GreenVest". That way the look of the character indeed would reflect his camo value.
Quote:
Round vision is a point but only in
prone/lying stance/position cause of grass ecetera and something like that already is involved with the current system
if i understand that right.
Realy? didn't notice it.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283619] Thu, 16 June 2011 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283621] Thu, 16 June 2011 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
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[One of the threads above exactly talks about something. I think the eample was. Give someone a helmet and the colour of the models head will change in a black or grey..
Yes, that would realy be a nice feature to have - albeit purely cosmetical.

Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283710] Fri, 17 June 2011 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
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As i mentioned the example with angle and range in relation to your merc and the enemy here is a more detailed description. An enemy f.ex. is exactly in front of you 150m (15tiles). Your merc is lying on the ground. The enemy will see mostly of your head and your torso (petty said shoulders, upper torso area) but not your legs.
(...)
Your restricted max camo is 50%. All your body parts provide in sum a restricted max camo of 50%.
So as i said your were lying on the ground the enemy could only see your merc's head and torso (petty said your upper torso meaning shoulders)
Thinking further about it, I don't think it is correct: Independtly of your stance the enemy would always be able to see (most of) your entire body. When the enemy is couched or standing and you are prone he anyways would be able to see your legs too because he is looking at you from a higher angle. But even when he is prone too he should be able to see more of you than just your head and upper body (unless there would be some kind of obstacle in the way). Otherwise we must assume that your head and shoulders would completly block the enemy LOS on anything that is behind it
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #283845] Sat, 18 June 2011 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285438] Sun, 03 July 2011 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285466] Sun, 03 July 2011 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
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Again the legs are not complete invisible.
They don't have to be completely visible. When talking about the negative effects of poor camouflage, it is sufficient if parts of its are visible. Imagine someone with a camo shirt and painted face but wearing singal-red trousers. Parts of those pants being visible would allow you tell that someone is there.

Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285467] Sun, 03 July 2011 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
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Buns
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Again the legs are not complete invisible.
They don't have to be completely visible. When talking about the negative effects of poor camouflage, it is sufficient if parts of its are visible. Imagine someone with a camo shirt and painted face but wearing singal-red trousers. Parts of those pants being visible would allow you tell that someone is there.



that is exactly what happened in nam: the 1. infantry division (the big red one) was ordered to wear their berrets on jungle patrols (to save weight) instead of their helmets. in the vietnamese jungle there were just two things in red - and orchids don't move. after that first camo-barrets and later those hats you see now all the time were issued.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285480] Sun, 03 July 2011 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285482] Sun, 03 July 2011 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285491] Sun, 03 July 2011 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285696] Tue, 05 July 2011 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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Camouflage should also be dependent on the experience of the guy looking for you. Low experience and u can hide good.. elites might even see you hiding behind trees.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #285738] Tue, 05 July 2011 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286234] Mon, 11 July 2011 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
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Hm... Yes, indeed. So the angle is not the only problem. Whenever you wear something which is not in colours for a certain terrain you will get a complete neutralisation of your current maximum camouflage, a big disadvantage? Is it what you meant, Buns? So we may have to define which are those colours?F.e. pink, purple, yellow in woodland ... not good. So these colours get on an index so each terrain get his blacklist of colours? ^^
That's what we need negative camo values for. For example, an item that would be completly off in a desert envoirement, like the dark-blue SWAT vest, would have a minus -100 desert-camo. A wood camo uniform might have -100 urban-camo, and so on.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286236] Mon, 11 July 2011 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286439] Wed, 13 July 2011 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286505] Thu, 14 July 2011 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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What about a different direction?

Player Level	Max Camo Bonus Of Target (%)
	1		100%		
	2		..
	3		..
	4		..
	5		..
	6		..
	7		..
	8		..
	9		..
	10		30%


High experience means that camo is less effective.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286511] Thu, 14 July 2011 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286513] Thu, 14 July 2011 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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No i mean "max camo bonus"

level 1:
a 0% will be seen as 0%
a 100% will be seen as 100%

level 10 with 30% max:
a 0% will be seen as 0%
a 20% will be seen as 20%
a 30% will be seen as 30%
a 100% will be seen as 30%

that will be easy for a gamer to understand the concept quckly.

30% might be a bit extreme, maybe working with experience level differences?
a level 10 scout can reduce any camo of a level 1 guy to 30%?
a level 10 scout can reduce any camo of a level 10 guy to 90%?
a level 1 scout can't reduce any camo of a level 10 guy.

I've seen a sniper video and heard about "chicken wings". Knowing about thats means the difference of being found or being completly invisible.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286514] Thu, 14 July 2011 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286515] Thu, 14 July 2011 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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Wooohw that's hardcore and would take out the Ghillie Suit, make it needless.

An inexperience guy would stuff his ghillie suit badly, making it less effective, even standing out in the background. Well one problem is that level 1 and level 10 aren't really defined, does level 1 means civilian grown up in a city? or soldier after first year of training?

A stupid civilian might be even worse. So high intelligence could counteract inexperience, while average intelligence is required, though the current mechanic is that high intelligence means to gain experience faster.

About the numbers, it all has to be thought of gameplay wise, meaning the gamer needs to see the changes and they need to matter without braking gameplay. Here one level difference shouldn't have to be observable, but 3 levels should.. make a difference. Noticable should be 15%?.

Level Diff   Max Camo
 -2          100%
 -1          95%
 0           90%
 1           85%
 2           80%
 3           75%
 4           70%
 5           65%
 6           60%
 7           55%
 8           50%
 9           45%
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286516] Thu, 14 July 2011 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286518] Thu, 14 July 2011 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286519] Thu, 14 July 2011 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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Oh, putting the ghuille suit exclusive to a class will ensure proper RPGing. A level 1 guy is already experienced with the basics, so that is already more than I know (im a city civilian with youtube experience Wink )


The table I gave u just relates to the "color", regardless of standing, moving, not-moving. I just want it to be gameplay changing, otherwise it isn't worth for it to be included.


The current cover system was made with the idea that you can intermix different ideas and give sight adjustments in a matter that is gameplay changing, but not too complicated to understand for the gamer and easy to extend. So...

Moving, not moving, standing, crouching and lying should be not part of the camouflage system per se. Moving makes u spot harder anything.. regardless of camouflage, or makes u be spot more easly. Standing, croucing and lying are also not directly related to the camouflage percentage except for the 3D environments colors around u. Hidings standing infront of a wooden building hides u thx to your wooden camoflague. Hiding crouched behind a thin tree actually makes u more visible than standing behind that tree, also regardless of camouflage.



Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286520] Thu, 14 July 2011 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
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we don't have 'thin' trees

cpt. moore i don't see yourt point, if we had 'active' and 'passive' camo (are they called like that irl?) that meant we also had a camo-related block in the ini (comparable to ham\supression) where you can tweak active and passive values - a more complex system (where you can take out parts easily) is in fact the better sollution. we just needed better switches (=understandable ones) and a proper readme part.

that 'active' camo is the stealth-part in it - running in a ghillie should be comparable to a 'shoot me'-sign carried around.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286521] Thu, 14 July 2011 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286523] Thu, 14 July 2011 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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Therefor i was thinking about level 3 with some max-camo-limit.

Currently there are alot of items which can be used even if they hurt, like low condition night visions or so.. I don't like that. So adding an item limit like level 3 is better than giving a penalty to a level 1 character.

Cell
I think this is not really complicated

I was more thinking about the numbers and less about the mechanics, one problem was that adding the cover value to "f"( or was it "v"?) was that no value existed, and couldn't be calculated. So had to rearrange some stuff to make it fit. NCTH has the problem that some people miss the % number, things like that should just be available in some form and make sense (e.g. camo will be 30-100% and will reduce the sight range based on it).
But that might just be me, I like knowing my odds without having to try & observe (hence the cover display).

Cell
Absolut disagree. In other words a gepard or a lion could run simply to his victim cause camouflage is not movement dependent?

Nono, I mean do the patterns actually help his camouflage when he runs? I dont think so. The idea is if he moves slowley he is seen less, if he runs he is seen more but that has nothing to do with camouflage. Camouflage is just the color pattern, and moving .. regardless if he is pink or blue, will make him more visible.

Instead of having a visibilty * movement equation, I think visbility + movement is sufficient. Makes calculations also easier.

Cell
CptMoore
Hidings standing infront...
Self-explanatory.

Sorry I dont understand.

For offensive actions.. what about counter-actions?
A specific mode to detect camouflage units? (currently one could use binoculars, but that just adds to sight range)
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286527] Thu, 14 July 2011 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286537] Thu, 14 July 2011 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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Camouflage is highly movement and position dependent.

One reason to make camouflage directly depend on movement and position if you actually want different camouflage types that are good or bad while moving. A modifier would add camo movement effectiveness to a certain pattern.

Otherwise I would split it... 30% camo bonus + 20% movement penalty = 10% cover, this is biased though since thats how it works now mostly.

Stance might have more influence due to the 3D environment, but thats not directly about stance than about the color patterns of the environment which would need to be compared to the camouflage.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286543] Thu, 14 July 2011 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286547] Thu, 14 July 2011 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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Yes I understand that you envision it that way, it allows to precisley define corner cases for stance and movement speed.

However I do not like the interconnection between it.

Do you differentate between a running and a crouching characters that has no camouflage at all? It is currently thought of by the rest of the cover system, but with those additions you would give the character 2 panalties, once because you are moving, and the other by reducing camouflage effectiveness.

This double penalty currently is there with the camouflage and stances, where the stance reduces the camouflage and I dont like it that way.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2011 20:01] by Moderator

Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286548] Thu, 14 July 2011 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286559] Thu, 14 July 2011 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286564] Thu, 14 July 2011 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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using max. camouflage does remove the double penalty problem.

only major feature missing is the consideration of "light". maybe some of the materials perform worse under low light conditions, making camouflage less effective under non-perfect conditions.

an advanced feature would be IR sight and IR resistance materials.
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286565] Thu, 14 July 2011 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
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Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286567] Thu, 14 July 2011 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
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i've heard the flecktarn german camouflage is actually standing out on low light conditions. i dont think trees cast shadows? but if they would, the camouflage won't protect you as much. it seems to be dependent on the camouflage type, probably some modern digital camo won't have the same problem, same for the guille suite as this uses local stuffing.

anyway, most likley the changes will only be in the evening, morning or nights. night might introduce a max of 60%? where as evening and morning will have 80%? though this needs to be done per camouflage system, e.g. paint and printed camo will have these limits, while guille stays at 100%max.
dont have more ideas about it, but there must be more interessting stuff. does JA have flares?

for the IR thing, yea that is advanced since it requires additional items and gameplay mechanics. are the anti nightvision materials? mabye implementing those might be a first step before switching to IR.

I think there needs to be a material system... a table with:
* type of camouflage (woodland, etc..)
* per light level (11, 10, 9: 100%, 8-4: 80%, 3-1: 40%)
* coverage .. all the things about direction, stance etc.. like described above
* night vision penalty (how much it glows for night vision goggles)
* ir vision penalty (how much it reflects IR
Re: [CS] Camouflage System - Brainstorming[message #286568] Thu, 14 July 2011 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Cell

 
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