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Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #301875] Sat, 17 March 2012 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fozzie

 
Messages:183
Registered:April 2010
Location: Germany
Who? I don't think we've been properly introduced...
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #301876] Sat, 17 March 2012 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Not in the standard arsenal if I remember correctly.


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #301883] Sat, 17 March 2012 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3853
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
A sweet little number , but hot when needed and keeps quiet when required .... Very Happy


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #301884] Sat, 17 March 2012 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sabresandy

 
Messages:65
Registered:February 2012
Wait, lasers give a penalty to sniper weapons?
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #301890] Sun, 18 March 2012 04:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
Hrm. That doesn't make sense. Probably a glitch.

That said, lasers are somewhat useless at the ranges that you would employ a sniper rifle at. Most sniper rifles can only attach a LAM-200, which doesn't even have the range of a rifle LAM. I usually don't even bother wasting the attachment slot. By the time the enemy is close enough to come within LAM-200 range, I'm already pulling the machine pistol.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #301904] Sun, 18 March 2012 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fozzie

 
Messages:183
Registered:April 2010
Location: Germany
Now that think about it, the NCTH aim cursor maybe should have an indicator that shows laser sight "effectiveness" very much like scope magnification. All I know is that lasers get less efficient with greater distance, but not how much so or at what distance.

And as I have gathered it so far, a laser sight doesn't actually give a penalty to your sniper rifle, but the more powerful the laser is, the higher are the chances that it is being used instead of the scope, giving you the "flat scope penalty" of 50%, even though the actual distance to the target would allow for a lower penalty if the scope was being used. If a laser sight works only up to a distance at which the scope penalty is already above 50%, it can be helpful, since you can effectively cap the scope penalty at 50% with it. But if the laser is effective over a longer distance at which the penalty would normally be less than 50%, using it rather hurts your chances to hit, even more so, if the merc by courtesy of his sniper trait would hit that 50% penalty mark only at a considerably shorter distance from the target. So it hurts mercs with sniper trait (who get a lesser scope penalty) even worse.
What I'm not sure about are possible other correlations with traits, since I don't know how laser sight effectiveness is actually calculated in the game. It appears to be a multiplier of maybe "standard" sight range, but I have no idea if alterations to sightrange are also considered in the final calculation. As an example: Rifle LAM and Rifle LAM + Flashlight have the same "effective laser range" value, but the latter also gives a flat bonus of 20% to sightrange - does that "indirectly" increase the effective laser range? If yes, how about the bonus from e.g. sunglasses or the scout trait? That could be interesting, cause a hunter/scout merc (with or without marksman/sniper trait) could then suffer yet even more from using them.

I'd like to point out again that all this is purely based on fuzzy deduction and wild assumptions, since I don't actually know how all those mechanics work and I remember Sandro mentioning once that his trait system might show some unintended oddities if coupled with NCTH, since he devised it for OCTH. So I'm not pointing any fingers or putting any blame, but if this discussion might perhaps be able to help to improve our beloved game, then it's all for the better.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302255] Fri, 23 March 2012 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
The FN P90 has a "general AP reduction" of 20%. What's up with that?

I'm compiling a list of SMG stats for a new enemy gun choices list that I'm making, and I happened to notice this. I noticed it because the default aim levels on the P90 is 4, and I don't recall seeing it as such in the game. I recalled all the SMGs with folding stocks had 4 (up from 3), and that the bullpup P90 was a notable 3. The autofire rate was also suspicious, but I thought I might have been mistaken on it at the time, but the aim levels was a dead giveaway.

So anyways, uh... why? Just because we like this gun so much, it absolutely must be superior to other SMGs in every way?
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302258] Fri, 23 March 2012 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
It comes with a built in reflex sight.


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302261] Fri, 23 March 2012 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2047
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Ryft
So anyways, uh... why? Just because we like this gun so much, it absolutely must be superior to other SMGs in every way?

Because it is Very Happy

The P90 is a pretty epic piece of kit compared to a lot of others in its sector. Fast, light, hard hitting, low recoil, easy to handle and large magazine...
It covers pretty much every base very well, the only real negative is the proprietary ammunition which costs a fair bit and is hard to find. However that's offset by it's ability to breach body armour at 200m with ease...


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302285] Sat, 24 March 2012 04:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
Ah, sorry, forgot about the built-in reflex site. What else is covered under "general" AP reductions, then, besides aim levels? Also, then, why does the P90 have one more aim level than almost every other SMG? I would think it should be 3, which is equal to the Steyr AUG Para... another bullpup configuration SMG.

Kaerar
The P90 is a pretty epic piece of kit compared to a lot of others in its sector. Fast, light, hard hitting, low recoil, easy to handle and large magazine...
It covers pretty much every base very well, the only real negative is the proprietary ammunition which costs a fair bit and is hard to find. However that's offset by it's ability to breach body armour at 200m with ease...


Maybe in this game, but I'm skeptical beyond that. With the exception of the NATO CRISAT test that the FN 5.7 and HK 4.6 rounds were designed to beat, I think newer "PDW" weapons are over hyped, especially because all they are being used for is an SMG, really. They actually aren't all that light compared to a carbine rifle, their wound characteristics are generally inferior to the 9mm or 5.56 (especially in police actions where the targets aren't likely to be wearing armor), and the lighter round is also going to be more prone to both drop and wind drift.

Give me an MP5 with a C-mag and AP ammo any day... probably just as good at the distances you are using an SMG at. Or for that matter, re-design a 9mm SMG from the ground up in a bullpup configuration, as for a weapon the length of an SMG you get a lot of mileage out of a bullpup design. The Steyr 9mm doesn't really count, because it's really a retrofit, rather than a purpose built SMG design. The JS 9mm comes close, given that it's a retrofit of an SMG, rather than a rifle.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302315] Sat, 24 March 2012 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2047
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
There is also the fact that 4.6mm and 5.7mm ammo are very fast to target, giving a much flatter trajectory than 9mm and better armour penetration than 5.56mm which is designed for wound channels not armour penetration.

The cyclic rate is also higher and due to the flatter trajectory they are easier have close groupings with, so I'd actually agree with the extra aim level for that reason. The reasons you mentioned in favour of the 9mm and 5.56mm carbines are indeed persuasive, though it depends on the targets. In this case fully armoured elites and soldiers would for covert ops? Gimme a P90 please Smile


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302316] Sat, 24 March 2012 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
This begs the question: why p90 is so crappy in counterstrike. I always hated it in counterstike. I love this gun since i first saw it in fallout 2.




Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302317] Sat, 24 March 2012 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Because CS is not too accurate when it comes to the (limited) arsenal of weapons? Also, wasn't it nearly as expensive as the proper carbines?


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302335] Sat, 24 March 2012 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
I could agree that, in certain applications where ranges might be extensively varied, and where your target is likely to be wearing body armor (spec ops, but almost certainly a military application), a P90 is an excellent choice, and probably the MP7 as well.

So... why are police departments purchasing them? Because they are aggressively and effectively marketed, that's why. Yet at typical SMG ranges, a 9mm MP5 is easier on my tax dollars, and performs as well or better against unarmored targets that are likely going to be in a known location at a given range (close range, inside of buildings). An MP5 gives you a controllable burst fire option, a wealth of accessories (under barrel grenade launchers for tear gas, anyone?), and by this point in it's history, weapon familiarity. Sure, 9mm AP ammo isn't going to penetrate a plate at 200m, but I'm probably never going to realistically engage a target at that range with such a weapon, anyways. Think about how far 200 meters really is, and what your accuracy is going to be like with such a small weapon.

Actually, if stopping power is what they want, police departments should be looking into a .45 caliber SMG, which even has the benefit over 9mm of being somewhat less likely to overpenetrate urban structures. A UMP-45 or that new Kriss Vector would be right up their alley. But no, it's trendy to use the P90.

Likewise, in a typical military setting, the 4.6 and 5.7 ammunitions are going to have vastly inferior stopping power compared to 5.56, so you're going to need to make up for that by expending additional ammo (thank goodness for that 50 round magazine!) Also, the majority of our targets in modern conflicts are also unarmored, go figure.

All in all, a nice set of weapons with specialty applications, but very over-hyped for what they are.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302337] Sat, 24 March 2012 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
There's a certain discrepancy between intent and application here. The PDW's were developed for rear area troops, tankers, pilots, ... yet somehow they ended up as elite commando guns. Oh, and they look cool and the media likes them Very Happy

Seriously though, as you're usually getting hold of them in a phase of the game where every enemy is clad in full spectra or worse (disregarding the awesome BR/standard load out approach), they are a superior choice for CQB.


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302345] Sun, 25 March 2012 05:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
Oh, within the game they are definitely a solid later tier choice, no argument there!

Whereas in the real world, they are pure fail for "rear area troops", and their status as elite commando guns is actually probably more appropriate. Rear area troops are probably better off with an M4 or similar, especially when magazine compatibility with other troops comes into play. If weight/portability is a concern, they should consider issuing something similar to a Bushmaster Carbon 15 M4, maybe with an even shorter barrel, akin to something out of the CAR-15 family, perhaps.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302351] Sun, 25 March 2012 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2047
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
IMO the UMP 45, MP5 A4 and other common round weapons would suit rear guard troops better. The M4 is a little too large for them and unless they are in open areas is overkill. A modded PDR-C would be the ultimate choice as they are small, light, easily manoeuvrable and use the same 5.56mm round as the M4's but are much smaller.

In reality the tax dollars you spend aren't even used by the government other than to repay loans on the cash they get from the Fed Reserve. But that's a totally different discussion better suited to Off Topic Wink

The reason cops and other agencies get those weapons are due to idiots in the procurement depts who suffer from bling syndrome.


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302354] Sun, 25 March 2012 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
Kaerar
IMO the UMP 45, MP5 A4 and other common round weapons would suit rear guard troops better. The M4 is a little too large for them and unless they are in open areas is overkill. A modded PDR-C would be the ultimate choice as they are small, light, easily manoeuvrable and use the same 5.56mm round as the M4's but are much smaller.


I wouldn't think a 10" barrel on an M4 would be that large, but the Magpul PDR is an excellent point. It's an excellent design for rear guard troops.

Quote:
In reality the tax dollars you spend aren't even used by the government other than to repay loans on the cash they get from the Fed Reserve. But that's a totally different discussion better suited to Off Topic Wink

The reason cops and other agencies get those weapons are due to idiots in the procurement depts who suffer from bling syndrome.


ROFL, so true, both of these.

Uh... in other reporting, all this stat comparison I've been doing is pointing out some weapons, notable for one reason or another.

Comparing several standard configuration rifles with ranges from 31-33, IIRC:
SIG 551 SWAT, G36K RAS, Colt M4A1, FN SCAR-68 CQC, HK 416 14"... the M4A1 is easily the fastest, and has the most controllable recoil besides. The SCAR variant stands out for having a much better damage score than the others, with the obvious drawback of not using a C-mag adapter. The other three are far less impressive.

Comparing several standard configuration rifles with ranges of approximately 35-36:
SIG 540, G35 RAS, 416 16", M16A1... the 416 is slightly speedier than the others, but can't use C-mags. The M16A1 has the most controllable recoil. The SG 540 can't use a rifle LAM, and the G36 is typical.

Comparing several standard configuration rifles with ranges of 37-38:
SCAR-H CQC, M16A4, Diemaco C7A2, SG550... the SCAR variant is faster, more powerful, has better range, and better accuracy. Again, no C-mag is possible with it. The M16 has decent recoil control, but of course has no full auto. The C7A2 has the best rate of fire, and also has excellent recoil control. The 550 isn't particularly notable in any way.

Comparing several rifles with ranges of 43-48:
FN FAL OSW, Barrett M468 (among the other two M4 6.8 clones), Steyr AUG-A3, HK 417... the AUG A3 has the best draw speed, but has one more aim level than the Barrett or OSW. The A3 has the best range and accuracy of the bunch. The OSW is pretty speedy, but has crazy recoil, and a much lesser range than the others. The 417 is slower than the others, but has a slightly better range than the other M4 types.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302359] Sun, 25 March 2012 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Ryft
Oh, within the game they are definitely a solid later tier choice, no argument there!

Whereas in the real world, they are pure fail for "rear area troops", and their status as elite commando guns is actually probably more appropriate. Rear area troops are probably better off with an M4 or similar, especially when magazine compatibility with other troops comes into play. If weight/portability is a concern, they should consider issuing something similar to a Bushmaster Carbon 15 M4, maybe with an even shorter barrel, akin to something out of the CAR-15 family, perhaps.
You can't make a barrel arbitrarily short. Below a certain threshold (I'd have to sift through the material for hard numbers, but the M4 is close already), the standard charge won't burn completely anymore with consequences on accuracy and damage.


Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #302397] Mon, 26 March 2012 01:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
I understand this. However, the XM177 had a 10" barrel, and it was found useful all through Vietnam. So apparently the 5.56 round is still reasonably useful down to that length.

That said, I also wonder what the muzzle flash is like on one of those things, short as they are.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #308480] Wed, 01 August 2012 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flak

 
Messages:18
Registered:June 2009
I think I like the Agram 2000 more than the skorpion.
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #321916] Mon, 24 June 2013 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SharkD

 
Messages:359
Registered:July 2003
Any plans for adding a c-mag to the game that fits the Steyr Aug 3? As if it weren't already overpowered... Very Happy
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #321921] Mon, 24 June 2013 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
It's simple xml work. Why don't you make one?
Re: 1.13 (NCTH) Weapon Comparison Guide[message #321922] Mon, 24 June 2013 16:00 Go to previous message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Don't forget to include the to-hit and handling penalties.


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