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General tactics question[message #297750] Fri, 03 February 2012 15:21 Go to next message
Istrebitel is currently offline Istrebitel

 
Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
After some thinking process, it occured to me that i was playing and succeeding in Ja2 just because of exploiting the AI seriously. And since for some time i started playing w/o reloading on failures, that gave less room for experiment and learning, since i basically couldnt afford it. Now, i decided to give it a go and learn to play as it possibly should be played, not exploiting AI pathing and other issues.

So please, guys who have experience and are skilled in tactics, give me your advice:

Given:
Lastest 1.13 executable with AFS (arulco folding stock) mod. using NCTH.
New expert game. Day one. I've beat Omerta, i plan on going to San Mona next.
As my second battle I meet a patrol on C9 at night.
My party has three IMPs (85 MRK, DEX, AGI), Igor and Ira. IMPs have scout and night ops.
Patrol is reinforced by another patrol so i end up against ~24 enemies in a sector. Some of them are elite.
I have no grenades yet and no break lights yet. Armed with default equipment (IMPS have weak MP5k like gun, NVG1/2, Ext. Ears).

How do i win this without taking serious injuries? Do i have a way to win this without abusing save/load and sustaining casualties/injuries? Is it even possible?

So far, only chance to do it that i found out is going with my 5-man squad around the edge of the map, spotting an enemy, trying to kill him in one turn and then run with all the mercs. Problem is, even having 85 MRK i cannot reliably kill an enemy with three of my mercs, and usually only three of five are in vision range when the enemy is spotted. If i wait one turn to get everybody in position after i spot the enemy, enemy might decide to walk my way on his turn, and since i already see him, i wont get interrupt, and he will fire first. If he doesnt die in one turn from my attack, he will obviously come closer and fire (and then others will blind-fire or out-of-sight fire too and i get hit and get less APs and cant get away and am just screwed).

What else can i do? Trying to hold off behind some cover doesnt help since enemy AI is very good at evaluating cover and will just move to the tile he needs to be in to fire behind my cover, and because there are too many enemies and i can only reliably take down one or two per turn (sometimes cant even take one...)

Any advice from the pros?

Thanks!



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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: General tactics question[message #297753] Fri, 03 February 2012 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1966
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Istrebitel
Problem is, even having 85 MRK i cannot reliably kill an enemy with three of my mercs, and usually only three of five are in vision range when the enemy is spotted. If i wait one turn to get everybody in position after i spot the enemy, enemy might decide to walk my way on his turn, and since i already see him, i wont get interrupt, and he will fire first. If he doesnt die in one turn from my attack, he will obviously come closer and fire (and then others will blind-fire or out-of-sight fire too and i get hit and get less APs and cant get away and am just screwed).


There's a solution do this particular situation: Just retreat the one(s) who have just spotted the enemy just one single tile while moving the others who are still out of sight/range in position. Thus, you lose sight of enemy but if enemy moves towards you in his turn, he is newly spotted and your nightops mercs are likely to get the interrupt ...

Another tatctics would be to let the mercs who did the spotting fire into enemy's legs and make him fall down. He then is quite unlikely to move towards you in his very next turn.

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Sergeant Major
Re: General tactics question[message #297755] Fri, 03 February 2012 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:693
Registered:July 2008
The truth is AI and players are not meant to be equal. They have bonuses we don't have and lives could be thrown away easily unlike players. If they lose 20 man to kill just one merc we have this means they fought a hell of a battle. Players are almost always outgunned are outmanned. The only advantage being a player is using your intellectual capacity (and save-load system Very Happy). But if you really want to forfeit your advantadges you will be cut to ribbons. At least choose some exploits that doesn't count as cheats then discard rest 'cause most of the tactics in JA2 is AI exploits.

tl;dr

Live to fight another day. Hit'n run. Flee from fights you can't win. You can fight them when you better equipped.

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First Sergeant
Re: General tactics question[message #297757] Fri, 03 February 2012 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hazapuza

 
Messages:262
Registered:February 2009
Location: Finland
Make a run for it. Smile

Seriously though, at the beginning you just don't stand a chance against that kind of numerical superiority, if you can't fight on your own terms. Or you don't get really lucky. Aside from what Sam Hotte already said, you can't do much. If the AI decides to rush you in numbers, most likely you can't stop them, at least without reloads.

Depending on your suppression settings, you might get a chance to pin down some/most of the enemies, but the same applies to you, of course. The moment you start taking continuous fire from them and can't fall back anymore, you're dead.

Edit: Too slow. And Gambigobilla summarized the cold facts pretty much perfectly.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 February 2012 16:51] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: General tactics question[message #297759] Fri, 03 February 2012 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft is currently offline Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
Looks like you ran into the Omerta counter attack. After taking Omerta, it usually arrives from the south like that. I generally avoid it unless I'm playing with a super IMP death squad. Razz

Generally speaking, for a night operation like this here's what I like to do:

1) Assuming the primary enemy is a sector to the south, along the road to Drassen, and their reinforcements are, say, to the west, in the fields west of the road. In that sort of setup, I deploy my troops in a group in the north-east corner. This gives them some space to not be overwhelmed immediately by the reinforcements. A very important first step.

2) Mercs with night ops get the best NV goggles to give them an even better sight range and your best chance to see the enemy before they see you.

3) Slowly advance your firing line in a smooth arc away from the inserted corner. Your night ops mercs should be at the center of this arc, since that will be the spot closest to the expected enemy positions (usually the center of the map). It also puts your less adept mercs guarding the flanks a little farther back from the action.

From here though, there's a lot stuff that can go differently. Are you playing with full HAM suppression? How many of your mercs have automatic weapons? Is Ira still equipped with a .32 and 1 speed loader?

It's quite possible to create a situation where your mercs are picking off enemies pretty quickly as they emerge from the darkness, even with pistols. With 24 enemies in the sector, though, it's also very possible for a 5-man squad to come under heavy attack and be overwhelmed by numbers. In situations where you aren't reliably dropping several spotted enemies per turn, if you run into a cluster of the enemy they will flood you with targets and eventually win out.

This is one of those times where fleeing might actually be a better choice.

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Master Sergeant
Re: General tactics question[message #297760] Fri, 03 February 2012 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
S0B is currently offline S0B

 
Messages:13
Registered:December 2011
If you want to play super legit, maybe you should avoid the roads entering a hostile land?

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Private
Re: General tactics question[message #297762] Fri, 03 February 2012 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Istrebitel is currently offline Istrebitel

 
Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
On exploits, i am talking about 2 particular exploits:

1) like drassen bar. on their turn enemy comes into a closed room which he cannot look inside until he steps inside, shot in leg, on my turn killed, next...

2) exploiting enemy pathfinding, which makes them first move diagonally (south, north, west, east) and then straight (sw, se, nw, ne), so if you scout two borders of the map (like southern and western of chitzena) and then position yourself in the corner (southwest), fire a loud weapon, enemies will (in real time) all try to first reach the "line" that goes from SW to NE corner of the map, and then follow that line in SW direction to you, which means when turn-based combat starts, enemies are spread along that line (since they all had been bumping into each other in real time and moving like ducklings after a duck), then you throw a light and start shooting, enemies come into the light, get spotted, shot at, run back, come forward, etc, this way you can kill alot of enemies with a small squad

Theese make the game just too static, predictable, and kinda.... boring and repetitive. Nothing is based on terrain, you just do the same trick over and over.

I understand that fighting against the AI is besting the AI in its flaws and thats what the numbers of AI is for - to make up for its stupidity. I just think that those 2 examples are TOO overpowered?

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: General tactics question[message #297767] Fri, 03 February 2012 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:693
Registered:July 2008
Then use hit and run tactics. Also night fights are easier. You could always pick some stealth kills. As a personal choice i don't do fights in woods and avoid when i can. I prefer urban combat that you can make doors as choke points, better hiding places and rooftops as sniper vantage points. AI almost always rambo me in the woods. It seems that damned trees cover AI better than me.

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First Sergeant
Re: General tactics question[message #297771] Fri, 03 February 2012 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Istrebitel is currently offline Istrebitel

 
Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
AI just knows percisely from which tile can he see which tile, etc. You can only know how far you see from your position and how far can the enemy see if you spotted him. You dont actually know against which of the tiles are you better protected or have better sight range... But AI knows that. I once fought AI at day with imba long range sniper rifles with supreme sight... like half a map. AI still could close on me because it persicely used the bushes and travelled from gap to gap in my line of sight. When you're attacked by a sniper from far away (provided you rarely are, but still...) you have no option to ask the game "show me the safe head-on path to that sniper's position"

2 SOB
Well, i only talk about two types of exploit that are not good because they remove ALL tactics from the game. No tactics required at all, just sit still and either you're unlucky then you get hit and probably lose, otherwise you win, flawlessly.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 February 2012 19:11] by Moderator

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: General tactics question[message #297776] Fri, 03 February 2012 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1966
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Regarding cover, sightrange etc.: there are hotkeys available to show you not only what you can see but also what enemies already spotted by you do see and where you have cover from them etc.
IIRC it is DEL that displays the "threat analysis" with different colours displaying where you will be seen when crouched, prone, standing, always or not at all.
Very helpful. Smile

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Sergeant Major
Re: General tactics question[message #297778] Fri, 03 February 2012 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Istrebitel is currently offline Istrebitel

 
Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Unfortunately it isnt very helpful because it doesnt tell you if enemy standing in other tile would see you. In other words, AI knows this "del" map for each tile, but you can only read it for the tiles where a spotted enemy spawn.

When i was trying to learn how to cover behind bushes and logs, i used alt+t cheat code to teleport my other guy around and check from where can he see behind the bush, and from where he cant. Thats what i'm talking about. For you its cheating, for AI its always available basic information.

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: General tactics question[message #297780] Fri, 03 February 2012 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Istrebitel is currently offline Istrebitel

 
Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Not exactly on topic of fighting in the open, but trying to study the AI and how-to-beat it i noticed this:

Drassen, i attack airport from west. My tactic is to start from SW and move N until i'm at the middle of the map vertically, then E, if noone is spotted until i have clear sight of the fence, then SSE and ambush first enemy spotted, then run away to W border and then move S. Enemies would come in a straight line, since they have to go around the fence, giving me time to retreat. Then i'd wait 2 in-game minutes for enemies to calm down and resume their patrol, and repeat. However, at some point, all enemies were inside the fence and i decided to try out the following:

I took position to the S of the left guard booth, to spot enemies as they approach the gate. They would approach, get shot at, and retreat.
Two problems.
1) Usually, AI would throw a break light at me if i keep hitting it from stationary position just outside its sight range. AI clearly could do it from where his soldiers were standing. However, nobody did it. I'll replay whole battle tomorrow to be sure, but it seems like sometimes AI wont try throwing a break light at you... like at all! And i didnt have any kind of silencers, only flash suppressors, and even not every gun had it (so i was constantly actually giving away my position, like once in 3 turns)
2) I used ALT+E cheat and there was an elite actually outside the fence all along. Even two of them. They were positioned to the E of the second guard booth (about 7 tiles to the right of it). For them, it was a clear straight path to me (SW direction) BUT, for some strange reason, they wouldnt want to charge at me (even though every person inside the fence would, and get chokepointed at the gates). Instead, they wanted to go towards the chokepoint! (towards the gates, where it's lit). They would then enter the light, and get out, enter the light, get out. WTF? I know there is code like "elite wont go into light at night" for advanced tactical AI, but why would they want to go towards the gates if i was firing from other direciton?

Is this something already studied or known? Can someone explain what i'm experiencing here?

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: General tactics question[message #297969] Mon, 06 February 2012 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Istrebitel is currently offline Istrebitel

 
Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Well, so far i only was able to find one tactic that works, and it is again feeling kinda exploit-y.

It requires at least one long-range (25+) weapon, break lights and at least 2 guys who can reliably interrupt enemies (when enemy havent spotted you yet) and night time.

I just start in the corner (run away if someone is spotted right away), then throw break lights so that advancing enemy from any direction would have to pass through light. Sniper must fire from far away (otherwise he'd get breaklight thrown in his face). Spotters must just interrupt enemies that enter the light - after interrupting (and doing nothing!) enemy would get into "was spotted in light - must get away into dark area" algorithm and runs away! Therefore, enemy has NO chance of ever coming close enough to see the spotter, and is too far away to throw a breaklight at the sniper.

It can only go wrong (suffer casualties) after enemies no longer come at you and you have to hunt them, but then again, when enemies have entered "chicken" state and are cowering in fear around the map, you usually take them out one by one and they dont come to help.

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: General tactics question[message #297984] Mon, 06 February 2012 17:07 Go to previous message
Ryft is currently offline Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
AI in any game is limited, what can we say?

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Master Sergeant
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