Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Combat/Weapon Academy » Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?
Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301600] Mon, 12 March 2012 21:12 Go to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
So I decided to try out melee and martial arts for the first time ever as my second campaign on my wife's laptop.

One custom IMP, Razor and Frankie, Q, Numb, and Malice to start. The IMP was awesome, some of the others decidedly not so.

Campaign is set to Novice difficulty. I haven't played that in ages.

Lots of default 1.13 settings, since I haven't really had a chance to play around with the XML editor on this PC yet. Just a few INI tweaks, and off I went.

Ugh. I suck at this!

Is there any sort of technique to make it work decently? If you aren't able to close AND attack within one turn, you leave yourself really vulnerable to pistol fire. And even when I'm ending my turn behind cover, ending so close to the enemy is making them spam grenades at me.

My tactics idea was to provide covering fire with whatever automatic weapons I have, and then flank/move in with the guys that only had pistols and melee weapons. It's not really working, though. My team is suffering a major casualty every fight that I have after Omerta (which went deceptively smoothly).

On my last fight, I was attacking the weapons cache at E11 from the southwest corner, using tree cover to approach the building. As I got behind the shed, I lost the IMP and Razor to a small mob, and Haywire was stunned. Going to start over again, completely.

Any ideas as to what I could be doing wrong?
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301601] Mon, 12 March 2012 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lamach_Head

 
Messages:426
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars
You need to sneak like crazy and lots of save/loading.
Even with save-load madness, it is quite a challenge, and a funny one. Daylight missions are still mostly suicide though.

Melee basically doesn't stack much with Martial Arts on a single merc, so you may skip one and either take Athletics, Throwing or Stealth.

You may also increase the number of traits and create ultimate ninja IMP with Martial Arts, Melee, Throwing, Athletics, Stealth, Bodybuilding and Ambidexterity (for faster stripping KOed enemies of items)... and go all ninja style, punching and stabbing people, hurling shurikens all over etc. May be a lot of fun. Smile


Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301602] Mon, 12 March 2012 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Melee works best at night, as it is easier to take down someone without being immediately fired upon, and its way easier to reach someone you see.

High strength is a must. Use crowbars or knuckle dusters, ideally you'll need one hit to knock 'em unconscious. Be cautious, it might happen that the enemy immediately gets up again. In that case, weaken them with the first punch (without crowbar) and then hit them with the crowbar in the second punch. you can find a crowbar most of the time in the lower right house in A9.

Knives work well, provided you have someone who is good with them (Razor). Ideally you should find a knife that kills the enemy in 1 hit (being hit by a knife doesn't take that much AP, so they'll be able to retaliate if they live). It might be good to first use the knife and then punch (ideally with crowbar).

If you play with new traits, I'd strongly advise using the 'athletics'-skill. Saves a lot of AP while running.

Going melee in broad daylight, on a map without possibilites to ambush a lone soldier (like in cities), is extremely frustrating. Unless you abuse the AI with timing your turns.


Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301603] Mon, 12 March 2012 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
If you like sneaking and don't mind a little AI-abuse, here's this glitch:

As long as the enemy doesn#t know your there, they are in the 'green' AI mode. They won't search for you. If you see an enemy, and thereby get into turnbased-mode, you can for look away and end your turn. Real-time will continue, the enemy didn't get a turn.

One can heavily abuse this. Using the cover display, run towards an enemy (but no one may see you!) while no one knows you're there. Have a few APs left, turn into another direction (so you won't see him). Then, end your turn (real-time kicks in). There is a window, ~ 1 second long, in which the enemy won't continue his path or change his viewpoint. Now immediately turn into the direction of he soldier. You'll be back in turn-based mode, with full APs. You can even kill enemies this way, but you'll have to make sure they are dead before you end your turn. quite easy,if your standing next to him...

With this AI-abuse, you'll be able to clear any sector with bare fists... but believe me, it#s rather boring. But useful, if you just want to kill one enemy and then continue playing honourable Wink


Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301604] Mon, 12 March 2012 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
Athletics is definitely amazing, even on my non-melee mercs. I've taken to putting it on forward scouts and observers so that they have an easy time staying ahead of the party.

I'll give this one more go, but if it goes south this time, I'm sticking to using mostly guns. Maybe afterwards I'll try a mixed case... one melee specialist with a team backing them up that consists of night ops and auto weapon experts.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301605] Mon, 12 March 2012 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Flugente
Use crowbars or knuckle dusters, ideally you'll need one hit to knock 'em unconscious. Be cautious, it might happen that the enemy immediately gets up again.

Not if enemy was knocked down by a martial artist; once downed by a MA enemy will stay down a few rounds. Long enough, to rob him over several turns, just give him another punch every 3rd turn or so. Smile
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301606] Mon, 12 March 2012 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
If you're playing drop-all disabled and saw a blackshirt with a nice gun in hand then martial artist is a blessing. Use with Athletics with best results.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301625] Tue, 13 March 2012 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
I can never tell what's nice until they are dead, usually. All the tool tip shows me is "rifle" or whatever. My only other option for identification is the noise, which is sometimes unique.

On that note, I heard something really beefy sounding the other day, but I'm not sure what it even was. It was definitely either pump action or bolt action, and it was fired twice off screen, and then a militia member must have gotten them.

It sounded awesome. I wants one. Razz
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301636] Tue, 13 March 2012 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fozzie

 
Messages:184
Registered:April 2010
Location: Germany
The funny thing about bolt-action rifles is that the impressive sounding ones are sometimes really not that good. The Steyr Scout Tactical for instance sounds much more spectacular than a DSR-1 but is hugely inferior. Worst case: it could just be a Winchester Trapper... Wink
Really depends on your current game progress.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301701] Tue, 13 March 2012 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
This definitely wasn't a trapper. It sounded massive.

I'm gonna buy some stuff tonight on a random save game slot and listen to the sounds...

Edit: It's totally the M40A1. That thing sounds bigger than the anti material rifles!

[Updated on: Wed, 14 March 2012 02:01] by Moderator

Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301702] Wed, 14 March 2012 00:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2089
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
If it's early on then it's likely to be a Scout. Damn Raven's killing it with one of them in my game currently. Problem is I now have to restart as 5066 is out and has SOOOOOO many fixes XD


Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301704] Wed, 14 March 2012 02:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
I had to start a new game with tons of cash, fight my way to Drassen, and then order each damn sniper rifle in an awesome BR setting to find it. But it's definitely the M40A1.

I'll keep checking to see if any other weapons use that sound file.

Edit: the S&O Shorty uses the same sound, so it could have been either weapon. I had a handful of used weapons that jammed up for good before I could get a shot off, so I'm not sure about the Scout and some of the others, still.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 March 2012 02:13] by Moderator

Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301705] Wed, 14 March 2012 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2089
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Scout has a loud blast, similar to the M40A1, but the M40 is a better rifle. Longer range, better damage etc...

VERY loud bangs though. Gets and entire sector on ya arse Very Happy


Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301716] Wed, 14 March 2012 04:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryft

 
Messages:278
Registered:June 2009
I just imagine my enemy hearing the report of that weapon and having fear struck into their hearts.

On that note, why doesn't the M40 use the same sounds as the M24? Inconsistency, dammit. Razz

I think I might be giving the S&O Shorty a go of it on my next campaign... a nice fast sniper rifle, all around. It seems there are about three different sound packages for the sniper rifles. One of them is excessively common, and the one that I was interested in is excessively rare.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #301718] Wed, 14 March 2012 06:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2089
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
I could probably update the sound packages for SN's if I can source the damn sounds. I'm sure they are about though Wink


Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #303731] Sat, 21 April 2012 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FelixDrake

 
Messages:33
Registered:September 2008
Martial arts is primarily for item acquisition, though it has other uses also.
An important thing to understand is if you are running the game with the less difficult setting of enemies drop all, there is very little reason not to just put a point blank burst to the head with near silent weapon of choice.
The suppression and aimed attack of martial arts are what pushes it over the edge.
IMP merc Carlos "Roundhouse" Norris says ROUNDHOUSE KICK, accept no substitute.


There are four main situations I have found Martial Arts to be useful.

Cornered!: Mr. desert camo comes around the corner with his awesome gun and massive armor. A well placed boot to the head for 1/3rd of your APs and he's down for much longer than a stun grenade and can be robbed then pummeled to death for the strength practice long before he would have awoken.

Silent Night:So long as you understand the mechanics and consistently spot the enemy before they spot you, the real fighting can start after you take out all the snipers, spotters, and anyone stupid enough to travel alone. This can be done with really quiet guns, but the to hit bonuses of martial arts are large enough that with good stats, your chances of missing two straight kicks is pretty low, and once they are down, you get all their gear.

Reinforcements:Drassen counterattack, anyone? So the Drassen counterattack is about to happen, you hit one of the reinforcement groups, meaning you are fighting 20 soldiers with 20 reinforcements (then later, 20 soldiers with 40 reinforcements, but with building corners to help)
Take down a group of, say, 3-5 enemies with a stun grenade and a peppering with buckshot to be sure.
A martial artist can keep them suppressed for about 15-20 rounds if you do things right before they finally die of pummelitis and are replaced. If they don't have gas masks and you do, tear gas + pummeling = suppressed until end of fight pretty much.

Gimme Gimme Gimme:Let's face it, there are times you want something the enemy has and want it BAD. Martial arts makes this immensely easier.


Skills that can work well with Martial arts (use aimed attacks. One successful aimed martial arts
kick will take down an enemy without bodybuilding, no weapon required)

Athletics: Helps you run in, beat them down, and get at least one square away from your enemy to ensure he does not spot for his sniper buddy in the bushes. Great skill in it's own right too.

Night Ops: See them before they see you. You can't sneak up behind someone unless you're, you know, behind them. Athletics will probably help more though. Otherwise favorite skill for many since... well since there has been a Night Ops skill.

Stealth: Helps you run up behind them silently. Helps you sneak close enough to run up and roundhouse their faces in ... I'd still go athletics, though.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #303755] Sun, 22 April 2012 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vincent J. Claymore

 
Messages:270
Registered:February 2011
Absolutely agree. But, as Felix already said, with "Enemies drop all" activated there isn't much appeal to melee. I've seen that in my current Insane AR game. I've only partial drops, minimum coolness progress and a poorly stacked BR. So, for the first few days I needed every freakin item I could grab. I got myself an IMP with Melee x2 (strangely he doesn't kick, probably because he's the big bodybuilder type), athletics and stealth. I cleared a few sectors with this merc alone and looted like crazy...

But since all my mercs have decent weapons (Tar-21's and SR-25m) and armor (c18-dsm gear) I just can't be bothered wasting ours of my lifetime on lengthy night-combat-sneakfits. I just walk into the sector, fire in the air until those maggots come out of their holes and waste them with the ARs. That's a bit extreme with NCTH: Every Merc with decent APs kills three soldiers every turn. MUCH more time efficient than sneaking. Especially since money has never been an issue in JA2, you simply cannot have to little.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #303761] Sun, 22 April 2012 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
To sum it up: Melee/MA is very handy in early game and in late game the melee/MA merc can still be a good killer with firearms. So in my book this no useless at all. Razz

(BTW even with 'drop all' enabled stolen things are usually in better condition than the dropped ones after death; at least in my perception)
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #303762] Sun, 22 April 2012 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vincent J. Claymore

 
Messages:270
Registered:February 2011
Sam_Hotte
To sum it up: Melee/MA is very handy in early game and in late game the melee/MA merc can still be a good killer with firearms. So in my book this no useless at all. Razz

(BTW even with 'drop all' enabled stolen things are usually in better condition than the dropped ones after death; at least in my perception)

In Later game the melee points are more or less wasted though, you'd be better off with Autofire or Gunslinger, wouldn't you? But in the end, it's not really that important. I totally mis-skilled my IMPs and gave them Sniperx2 + bodybuilder/scout/deputy... and still, they slaughter the enemy during night engagements with (T)ARs
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #303857] Tue, 24 April 2012 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FelixDrake

 
Messages:33
Registered:September 2008
Melee is to kill, MA is to stun/steal.

Ultimately, once you have all the stuff you can steal, MA/Melee is ... sort of wasted.

That said, it is an excellent way to get str/agi/dex to 100, which itself is an advantage. Admittedly, there are abuses to increase most stats, but this happens to be a good 5-15 points of stats just from regular use, spread between the sneaking up and the application of boots to heads.

As for why the kicks are not happening, you need
a)no knuckles/weapons equipped (90% sure of this)
b)aimed shot (left click, right click, left click) Cursor does not change, only AP used
c)Martial arts (HtH will just pummel harder)

large body type might stop it, due to vanilla stuff:
In vanilla, both body type, and whether you got martial arts were tied to starting physical stats, and thus there may BE no roundhouse to the face large body animations.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #306433] Mon, 25 June 2012 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joel2es

 
Messages:41
Registered:May 2012
Use melees and martial arts...is funny...but really...little practise,...i was reading the comments...but really there isn`t any situation in the short range...that you can not solve better with a machine gun in burst mode, if you want not to be discovered in the night...you can use a silencer(with a thompson for example) and fire to the head, if you are in a corner...you could use a stun granade or a mercenary with a good level in silenth mode for not be interrupted,...perhaps the only one reason could be steal to the enemy something...

With melees and martial arts in experienced mode...sometimes it work...but sometimes (sure vs elite enemies)...if you don`t stun him enough...or you don`t kill him...the enemy in the next turn will fire you in burst mode with a machine gun for sure
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #342364 is a reply to message #306433] Tue, 08 September 2015 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rayniac

 
Messages:10
Registered:August 2015
As long as the martial artist has good physical stats, s/he will be pretty much invincible in close combat. Unless the enemy has great physical stats as well... You know what? Martial arts should give a merc a chance to perform a counter attack to a melee attack and disarm/steal the attackers weapon. Imagine this:

Enemy runs up to your merc with a knife
Enemy goes for your mercs throat with said knife
There would be a new animation showing your merc grabbing the enemy's arm/deflecting the attack
You can hear a loud *crack*
The knife drops to the ground

"merc has broken enemy's arm, dealing 26 damage and making him lose 45 dexterity!"

Or s/he could use some kind of a throw move or redirect the knife back at the attacker or... Many possibilities happy

[Updated on: Tue, 08 September 2015 22:05]

Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #342369 is a reply to message #342364] Wed, 09 September 2015 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
Rayniac wrote on Tue, 08 September 2015 21:49

-snip
There would be a new animation...
-snip


I'm sure the guys here would love a new animation but sadly we don't have an animator around... but this reminds me we have a reanimator around raising dead threads.

Jokes aside there are already "interrupts" which does almost does the same thing (at least functionally), those fancy animations wouldn't fit in the game, too much work for so little gain for both coder and animator.
Re: Melee/Martial Arts? Near useless?[message #342786 is a reply to message #301602] Mon, 12 October 2015 03:20 Go to previous message
johnson

 
Messages:60
Registered:September 2015
Flugente wrote on Mon, 12 March 2012 20:32
Melee works best at night, as it is easier to take down someone without being immediately fired upon, and its way easier to reach someone you see.

High strength is a must. Use crowbars or knuckle dusters, ideally you'll need one hit to knock 'em unconscious. Be cautious, it might happen that the enemy immediately gets up again. In that case, weaken them with the first punch (without crowbar) and then hit them with the crowbar in the second punch. you can find a crowbar most of the time in the lower right house in A9.c


This can be further enhanced by employing a spy, either as scout\backup or for the actual killing.
Previous Topic: Reason to use LMG
Next Topic: Radio operator best practice?
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Dec 11 13:29:16 EET 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02931 seconds