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How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301652] Tue, 13 March 2012 11:49 Go to next message
abradley

 
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Registered:December 2001
Quote:
Bringing Real Life to American Strategy in Afghanistan
by Christopher Bassford

Journal Article | March 3, 2012 - 11:26am

Anthony Cordesman

[Updated on: Tue, 13 March 2012 11:50] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301668] Tue, 13 March 2012 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Did you read it? It is not that profound. The writer says this in basics:

US can not steal resources and drugs by force.
US must bribe Afghanis and withdraw leaving political allies.
US must hire Pakistanis to do it's bidding.
20-30 years from now, the Afghani people wil be nostalgic of when US invaded Afghanistan..


It won't work. It is ridiculous. It is TERRORISM!!!

Fact: Nobody in recent history has been able to conquer these people.

Our soldiers fight for pay checks.
There soldiers fight for an idea freedom.
Our representatives fight for materialism.
There representatives fight for survival.
How do you expect to defeat an enemy like that?
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301678] Tue, 13 March 2012 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
Did you read it? It is not that profound. The writer says this in basics:

US can not steal resources and drugs by force.
US must bribe Afghanis and withdraw leaving political allies.
US must hire Pakistanis to do it's bidding.
20-30 years from now, the Afghani people wil be nostalgic of when US invaded Afghanistan..


It won't work. It is ridiculous. It is TERRORISM!!!

Fact: Nobody in recent history has been able to conquer these people.

Our soldiers fight for pay checks.
There soldiers fight for an idea freedom.
Our representatives fight for materialism.
There representatives fight for survival.
How do you expect to defeat an enemy like that?
Who said anything about profound?

Must everything be profound?
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301680] Tue, 13 March 2012 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
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Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
No, not everything must be profound, but it would certainly help the writer's agenda if he thought out his objective plan with some depth.
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301707] Wed, 14 March 2012 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
Did you read it? It is not that profound. The writer says this in basics:

US can not steal resources and drugs by force.
US must bribe Afghanis and withdraw leaving political allies.
US must hire Pakistanis to do it's bidding.
20-30 years from now, the Afghani people wil be nostalgic of when US invaded Afghanistan..


It won't work. It is ridiculous. It is TERRORISM!!!

Fact: Nobody in recent history has been able to conquer these people.

Our soldiers fight for pay checks.
There soldiers fight for an idea freedom.
Our representatives fight for materialism.
There representatives fight for survival.
How do you expect to defeat an enemy like that?
As for "Our soldiers fight for pay checks.", I can honestly say that after 22 years in the USAF the paycheck wasn't my reason for staying in. Plus I never met anybody in any of the US military services who served for the pay check.
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301719] Wed, 14 March 2012 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2088
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
abradley
As for "Our soldiers fight for pay checks.", I can honestly say that after 22 years in the USAF the paycheck wasn't my reason for staying in. Plus I never met anybody in any of the US military services who served for the pay check.

Dead right they started with idealism (for some), not wanting to think or having a desire to be a git to others. Then comes the indoctrination where they are trained to fight to defend a piece of worthless cloth for a very poor level of monetary compensation.

Then after 22 years they realise they've been duped if they haven't been killed.

OR they have sucked in the doctrine so well they think of themselves as patriot's which IMO is one of the scariest things you can encounter.


Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301721] Wed, 14 March 2012 06:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Where I come from, people join the military because they have no other options (or so they believe). They either can't find work or believe that they can make killer money/benefits. The problem is that the armed services do not pay a third of the lies they promise. Sorry I don't agree with your US patriotism motive. Not from 18 year old kids and minorities. Check out demographics for armed services. Point is, in 22 years how much money did you make, not including benefits, free pills, retirement, et cetera? Now, how much does an Afghani fighter make for defending his his/her home?

By the way, to fight in today's army one absolutely can not be a patriot because you are breaking your oath to defend the constitution.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 March 2012 06:54] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301722] Wed, 14 March 2012 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
Kaerar
abradley
As for "Our soldiers fight for pay checks.", I can honestly say that after 22 years in the USAF the paycheck wasn't my reason for staying in. Plus I never met anybody in any of the US military services who served for the pay check.

Dead right they started with idealism (for some), not wanting to think or having a desire to be a git to others. Then comes the indoctrination where they are trained to fight to defend a piece of worthless cloth for a very poor level of monetary compensation.

Then after 22 years they realise they've been duped if they haven't been killed.

OR they have sucked in the doctrine so well they think of themselves as patriot's which IMO is one of the scariest things you can encounter.
Not the way I see it, more like this:Quote:


http://www.usgennet.org/usa/wi/county/eauclaire/history/ourstory/vol5/bataan.html
Some men will never forget 'Bataan'
Millions of Americans have been killed, wounded and suffered misery in defense of this country during its 200-year history.
Four Eau Claire men fought only briefly in World War II, but it marked the beginning of four years of torture, beatings and misery.
Their fight was brief because America was ill-equipped and not prepared when the Japanese struck Pearl Harbor Dec. 7, 1941.
{Snip}
Made American flag
Clifford Omtvedt, center, and John Hryn, right, both of Eau Claire, show off a special flag in this photograph taken shortly after World War II. At center is fellow prisoner Col. Ralph Artman. The flag was made by Omtvedt, Hryn and other prisoners while in a POW camp in Japan during World War II. When liberation came, the freed prisoners raised the flag on the prison camp's flag pole. It was the first American flag to fly over Japanese after the war ended. It is now in a Ft. Lee, Va., museum.

While in prison camp Omtevedt, along with other prisoners, made an American flag from red, white and blue parachutes used by American planes to drop food supplies.
It was 11 a.m. Aug 18 when the Japanese lowered their colors and the makeshift American flag was raised. It went up before any American forces reached Japanese soil and was the first to fly over Japan at the end of the hostilities.
It was raised daily until Sept. 13, 1945, when the prisoners marched to freedom. Omtvedt carried the flag at the head of the column.
Omtvedt kept the flag and later presented it to the U.S. Government. It was placed in the Pentagon and is now in the museum at F. Lee, Va.
Hryn came to Eau Claire for a visit with the Omtvedts in 1947. He liked the city so much he decided to move here. One benefit of their imprisonment is the warm and lasting friendship forged through mutual experiences.
In April of 1967 Hryn and Omtvedt returned to The Philippines to attend dedication of a memorial on Corregidor and to walk one mile over the route of the infamous death march.
Keilholz was unable to attend because of his condition and Bruer said he didn't want to go.
"To this day I have no desire to return," he said.
Omtvedt said his return trip helped dispell a lot of bad dreams.
Can't see it as worthless ... but I wouldn't.
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301723] Wed, 14 March 2012 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
{Snip}

By the way, to fight in today's army one absolutely can not be a patriot because you are breaking your oath to defend the constitution.

How is that?
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301738] Wed, 14 March 2012 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Many, many reasons sir. One major would be that Afghanistan is fought because of an executive order and not declared through congress.

Are you aware of what your government has been doing in the last 30 years?

Also,
The US army is a capitalistic army of a kleptocratic republic. Their duty is to protect and secure investments. The brotherhood between humans is still there though. This is because the enemy you have been designated is trying to avert your presence. Your livelihood is threatened. The threat of death can create bonding not unlike the reciprocal of love. You are also rewarded for your actions. Since you were not selected and mandated to fight, you are essentially a mercenary. This is because of the pay involved. They entice young men who are developed enough physically. The young men are rather limited mentally being so young. Many are minorities who do not have a way out of the inner city ghettos. Others, are juvenile offenders looking for a way around going to lock up. Still others, are kids who played violent video games.

To fight in today's army is not a glorious life experience. You do not stand for human truths, such as, freedom, justice, and equality. America's revolutionary war was glorious. The war of 1812 was a defensive war and thus was glorious. Off the top of my head I can not think of any other wars that were not antagonistic in nature. I feel for the men and women who witness pain and misery within the institution of war. I don't necessarily have emphatic feelings with their judgement.

The next war will be on you. What will it be called? Civil? Revolution? Watch the signs. The savage time is almost here.
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301765] Wed, 14 March 2012 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
Many, many reasons sir. One major would be that Afghanistan is fought because of an executive order and not declared through congress.
How is that against the Constitution?Quote:

Are you aware of what your government has been doing in the last 30 years?
Yes.

Now to continue the discussion will you please tell me what is your definition of things like capitalistic army, kleptocratic republic, and mercenary.

As for the War of 1812 being 'Glorious', for the US it was one disaster after another, the only Battle of note that the US won was 'The Battle of New Orleans' and it was fought after the peace was signed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEhG7q0Ncpo[/video]
This is a (very clean) movie version of the slaughter, imagine what it would be like if you were in the middle of the Brit lines with the wounded screaming for help, then think of all the Battles the US troops lost during that war due to poorly trained troops and officers.

The only war/battle that's a "glorious life experience" is one where the two armies face each other and the Commanders decide that one side is the winner without a shot being fired, the winning side has had a "glorious life experience" of victory without slaughter ... the loser has had the horrible experience of defeat with out slaughter.





Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #301983] Mon, 19 March 2012 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates

 
Messages:1030
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Such myopic introspection has cost you all lives. Stop it. Pull out. Buy all the damn heroin they can produce and turn it into medicine or destroy it. Just don't let the underworld benefit en route. It would cost a fraction of the current military spend and very few lives by comparison. Against US prohibitionist anti-narcotic policies? Almost certainly. But those policies are sending many of your young men and ours to their rather pointless deaths. Think about it. Guys dying for an old fashioned view on drugs that only ever made criminals rich and did nothing to solve the underlying problem. Misplaced morality is as dangerous as nationalism or fundementalism when you're in the firing line.

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302106] Wed, 21 March 2012 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
Will Gates
Such myopic introspection has cost you all lives. Stop it. Pull out. Buy all the damn heroin they can produce and turn it into medicine or destroy it. Just don't let the underworld benefit en route. It would cost a fraction of the current military spend and very few lives by comparison. Against US prohibitionist anti-narcotic policies? Almost certainly. But those policies are sending many of your young men and ours to their rather pointless deaths. Think about it. Guys dying for an old fashioned view on drugs that only ever made criminals rich and did nothing to solve the underlying problem. Misplaced morality is as dangerous as nationalism or fundementalism when you're in the firing line.
I may be misunderstanding you, but we didn't go into Afghanistan because of drugs, it was because the Taliban were giving UBL a safe haven to plot his mischief, UBL eluded us during the initial operations, IMO we couldn't leave until he was killed or captured, otherwise he'd set up again. Only recently have we eliminated him.

Now is the time to leave!

As for the war on drugs, I've felt we're losing it for a long time and it might be best to legalize it like we did liquor.
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302116] Wed, 21 March 2012 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
We went to Afghanistan for drugs bub. Also, the billion $ plus resources sitting underground.

When taliban was in control opium production was nonexitant due to Islamic law. When Team America came in, opium production sky rocketed. Opium, morphine, codeine, heroin. Pills, pills, pills.

Edit:

Osama Bin Laden = Emmanuel Goldstein

What's up Will? How's JA retirement?

[Updated on: Wed, 21 March 2012 11:57] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302169] Wed, 21 March 2012 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
We went to Afghanistan for drugs bub. Also, the billion $ plus resources sitting underground.

When taliban was in control opium production was nonexitant due to Islamic law. When Team America came in, opium production sky rocketed. Opium, morphine, codeine, heroin. Pills, pills, pills.

Edit:

Osama Bin Laden = Emmanuel Goldstein

What's up Will? How's JA retirement?
:confused: Why did we go into Afghan because of drugs when the Taliban had stopped the drug trade?

As to Goldstein, how is the state going to pull that off without 'complete' control of the medis, Nixon couldn't even control the media enough to stop Woodward and Bernstein.

Look at all the leaks during the Bush admin.


Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302170] Wed, 21 March 2012 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
abradley
:confused: Why did we go into Afghan because of drugs when the Taliban had stopped the drug trade?

As to Goldstein, how is the state going to pull that off without 'complete' control of the medis, Nixon couldn't even control the media enough to stop Woodward and Bernstein.

Look at all the leaks during the Bush admin.




To throw that poppy seed.

That is not in the context of what the term "Emmanuel Goldstein" means.
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302172] Wed, 21 March 2012 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
abradley
:confused: Why did we go into Afghan because of drugs when the Taliban had stopped the drug trade?

As to Goldstein, how is the state going to pull that off without 'complete' control of the medis, Nixon couldn't even control the media enough to stop Woodward and Bernstein.

Look at all the leaks during the Bush admin.




To throw that poppy seed.

That is not in the context of what the term "Emmanuel Goldstein" means.
"To throw the poppy seed"?

OK, what does 'Emmanuel Goldstein' mean?
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302194] Thu, 22 March 2012 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
abradley

Very Happy
Who was your slave previously?

Do your own research.




...

Just Kidding...or maybe I'm not...

Poppy Seed

Emmanuel Goldstein

By the way, the CIA has not provided any documents or factual evidence to the pentagon regarding Osama Bin Laden's death. Check it out.


Edit:

Also, we are very fortunate to be living in a time of semi-transparency. This may not be the case in the near future.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 March 2012 16:30] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302215] Thu, 22 March 2012 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
tao
abradley

Very Happy
Who was your slave previously?

Do your own research.



...

Just Kidding...or maybe I'm not...

Poppy Seed

Emmanuel Goldstein
Ahhh, yes! But there's a difference between your wanting me to tell you who Thomas Sowell is and my wanting to know what a the phrase like 'Throw that poppy seed' means, Thomas Sowell is well know and easily researched, a phrase like 'Throw that poppy seed' isn't even a quote ... I googled it after you posted with these results
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/purim/article_cdo/aid/1404/jewish/A-Throw-of-Dice.htm
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/purim/article_cdo/AID/1404/ShowFeedback/true
http://www.iheartnaptime.net/poppy-seed-salad/
http://forum.opiophile.org/archive/index.php/t-387.html
and many more ....
Ok, which fits you meaning?

As for Emmanuel Goldstein, I replied to your "Osama Bin Laden = Emmanuel Goldstein" with "
As to Goldstein, how is the state going to pull that off without 'complete' control of the media, Nixon couldn't even control the media enough to stop Woodward and Bernstein."
and you replied "That is not in the context of what the term "Emmanuel Goldstein" means." then I asked "OK, what does "Emmanuel Goldstein' mean?", now you supply a Wiki link to the man, where in that link does it tell me the context your using?
tao

By the way, the CIA has not provided any documents or factual evidence to the pentagon regarding Osama Bin Laden's death. Check it out.
Neither has the LAPD, Strange things are happening!

tao

Edit:

Also, we are very fortunate to be living in a time of semi-transparency. This may not be the case in the near future.
:confused:

[Updated on: Thu, 22 March 2012 22:14] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302428] Mon, 26 March 2012 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates

 
Messages:1030
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Bull, the Taliban certainly traded opium; how else did they fund themselves? It pleased them mightily to think that western junkies were footing the bill for terror against the west. It was perfect justice in their eyes. They may be strict amongst their own but when it comes to the kaffir (that's all us naughty unbelievers, godless white scum and followers of antecedent heretical faiths) then no rules or morality applies at all. And OBL wasn't in Afghanistan was he? KIA in Pakistan where he probably was hiding in his pyjamas all along. Some f*ing mastermind. Erm you guys learn to fly plane, hijack plane, crash plane into building; I pay for lessons ok.

Any god who requires armed men to enforce his will is not a god at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Evil. Demonic. Anti life itself. Enemy of humanity. Destroyer. Usurper.

If the world put the same effort into peace as it does for war most problems would be solved in a generation.

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #302433] Mon, 26 March 2012 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2217
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Will Gates
Bull, the Taliban certainly traded opium; how else did they fund themselves?


It gained diplomatic recognition from three states: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates.

The only source of information pertaining to the Taliban using opium for economic advantages was this:
Chouvy, Pierre-Arnaud (2010). Opium: uncovering the politics of the poppy. Harvard University Press. pp. 52ff.

Then:
In 2000, the Taliban had issued a ban on opium production, which led to reductions in Pashtun Mafia opium production by as much as 90%. Soon after the 2001 U.S. led invasion of Afghanistan, however, opium production increased markedly. By 2005, Afghanistan had regained its position as the world

[Updated on: Mon, 26 March 2012 20:56] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #325867] Sat, 28 September 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smuck

 
Messages:60
Registered:May 2011
Perhaps history is repeating itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar's_invasions_of_Britain

So the barbarians knocked down the twin towers? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #325868] Sat, 28 September 2013 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3793
Registered:July 2009
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc225/Kenori_Merrik/Necro.jpg


Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #330563] Wed, 12 February 2014 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anthropoid

 
Messages:148
Registered:February 2014
Historians will be debating the whys, wherefors, hows, whithers and what nots for at least 100 years, and I doubt there will be a clear consensus even up to that point.

Only thing any of us can say with any true certainty is that it is a true shit swirl, and anyone who loves life, freedom, and liberty should be quite sullen about that. The trouble to come out of and stir around in Afghanistan is hardly over and that is a bad thing for everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI[/video]

[Updated on: Wed, 12 February 2014 23:32] by Moderator

Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #330584] Fri, 14 February 2014 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abradley

 
Messages:229
Registered:December 2001
" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_tiger
In a 1956 interview with the American journalist Anna Louise Strong, Mao Zedong used the phrase to describe American imperialism:
Re: How to get out of Afghanistan.[message #330626] Sat, 15 February 2014 19:56 Go to previous message
Anthropoid

 
Messages:148
Registered:February 2014
The one thing that Mao's red book doesn't take good account of is the innate human desire for affluence. That basic human drive is at the heart of why the USSR fell apart, why China has transformed into a proto-market economy, and also why China's oligarchs are living on borrowed time. If they as a social caste wish to retain power, they must stay one step ahead of their disenchanted populace.

So no, he was categorically _wrong_ to refer to the U.S. as a "paper tiger."

Cardboard Trojan Horse, with Doctor Who-esque Mallscape inside, perhaps.

The ONLY reason Afghanistan was not fully pacified within 3 years, is that Americans and the world do not have the stomach to do enough killing to bring Pakistani, and Afghani society to Germany/Japan 1945 stage . . . I am one American who most certainly does not have the stomach for it. And yet, as a social scientist and student of history, I am troubled by the murky threats posed by unresolved conflicts for future generations.

The sad and somewhat ironic part is that, this Western gentleness and compassion will almost certainly be viewed by the upcoming generation of would-be Jihadis as a sign of weakness, and an imperative to strike again, and to make 9/11 (and the other post 9/11 attacks in Madrid, Istanbul, London, etc.) look like a drive-by shootings.

Perhaps when they get their hands on a stray Russian artillery nuke, and lob it into a packed bowl game killing ~80,000 we in the West will fully understand what we are dealing with. Perhaps there will come a groundswell of full appreciation for what William Tecumseh Sherman was referring to in his 1864 letter to the Atlanta city council:

Quote:
You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling.

[Updated on: Sat, 15 February 2014 20:05] by Moderator

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