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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324515]
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Fri, 30 August 2013 20:59
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iklop |
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Messages:82
Registered:July 2013 Location: Germany |
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Greetings :wave:
dinglehopperTake your laser pen out in the day sometime and from your hip light things up at distnces from 5 to 50 feet. Now swing around a corner, pick a target in that range and see how long it takes you to get your pointer on the target, if you can even see the pointer. It is slightly easier at night. Despite what Hollywood shows, lasers work best when used while aiming down the sights, this is because the sights give you a great point of reference and if the laser is there it provides some assurance you are on target.
I totally agree here...
silversurferSo for gameplay reasons I wouldn't make scopes any more powerful. Take a good shooter and the right scope for the range and you almost have a guaranteed hit with the current NCTH system.
Because of that I decided that the laser bonus should only apply to non scoped shooting because that needed an improvement. That's why I also implemented an iron sight performance bonus. It works like the laser performance bonus but only for using iron sights.
... and mostly here.
I support Strohmann: why not mixing both concepts ? If it's possible:
Wil made settings that high power Lasers provide a slight AP bonus to draw/point the weapon in the AFS mod. Lasers actually do help while pointing the gun, as was pointed out. For "iron sights" (and red dots ? ) you could set the aiming bonus, and for "iron sights + all other scopes" you could set the ap pointing bonus.
Maybe easiest way would be a flag for iron sights that activates the aiming bonus if Laser is attached (as iron sights will most likely be the fewest items out of the scope class) thus adding an "inactive" aiming bonus on the iron sight flagged scope, and simply removing the aiming bonus from the Laser *unsure*
[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2013 21:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324620]
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Tue, 03 September 2013 00:41
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mmm |
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Messages:63
Registered:May 2013 |
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Actually somehow the mercs could pull off more shots, even somewhat aimed ones(consider aiming is a fixed AP cost and is not reduced by injuries), when injured. This is totally weird to me. That may be just for my perfect super soldiers of course.
Am it seems to me that the squad lead AP bonus does the same. I didn't try hard to verify but it seems that the AP to attack is affected by the bonus beyond the maximum stackable limit. Let's say a character is influenced by 5 levels of squad leader skill, with a stack limit of 3. The attack AP would actually be penalized as if the character was under the influence of 5 levels of AP bonus, while actually receiving only 3.
Edit: It seems that I missed a lot of discussions and actual progress during the past month despite I was actively refreshing the page because I was too dumb to notice there was a "PAGE 2".
[Updated on: Tue, 03 September 2013 01:39] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324637]
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Tue, 03 September 2013 05:09
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mmm |
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Messages:63
Registered:May 2013 |
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Looks like some interesting progress on the implementation of laser bonus. Although it seem to be quite limited in scope, any progress is a good one. Thanks for making such an effort, silversurfer.
What I believe is that one laser dot is as good as another, during day or night, if they are working at their full effectiveness. To model the deterioration of laser at longer than optimal range is tricky though. Although less visible, when you eventually find the laser dot, it's almost as good as a more visible one, cutting down the CTH bonus is not idea in my opinion. I believe what happens in the real world is that it takes you more time to find the less visible dot. But how do you implement that in game? One way I could think about is to make the bonus unavailable to unaimed/insufficiently aimed shots, until sufficient aim clicks are applied. Also it doesn't make sense to me to have identical best laser range day or night, if brightness is actually going to affect laser performance.
I'd like to know the brightness's effect on laser in more detail, is it possible to make it tweakable in ini?
As for the appropriate bonus to apply, I think what laser does is to provide an aimpoint, an aimpoint that is almost as accurate as the one provided by iron/red dot sight. So naturally laser will allow you to match the accuracy of sighted shots, which is to partially/fully remove the 30% CTH cap penalty of hip fire when working properly.
BTW, tweaked laser bonus bring up another issue: is it possible to add hip fire for crouch and prone? Won't exactly be "hip fire" I suppose, but unsighted, just to full fill the functionality of using only laser in stances other than standing. I wouldn't mind if there's no animation for this.
[Updated on: Tue, 03 September 2013 06:29] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324645]
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Tue, 03 September 2013 11:03
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silversurfer |
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Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009 |
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mmmActually somehow the mercs could pull off more shots, even somewhat aimed ones(consider aiming is a fixed AP cost and is not reduced by injuries), when injured. This is totally weird to me. That may be just for my perfect super soldiers of course.
I believe this is the same behaviour as for a turtle type merc. He may not move far in one turn but he can shoot as much as others.
mmm
Am it seems to me that the squad lead AP bonus does the same. I didn't try hard to verify but it seems that the AP to attack is affected by the bonus beyond the maximum stackable limit. Let's say a character is influenced by 5 levels of squad leader skill, with a stack limit of 3. The attack AP would actually be penalized as if the character was under the influence of 5 levels of AP bonus, while actually receiving only 3.
At the moment I have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not going to dive into AP calculation code at the moment. :whoknows:
mmm
To model the deterioration of laser at longer than optimal range is tricky though. Although less visible, when you eventually find the laser dot, it's almost as good as a more visible one, cutting down the CTH bonus is not idea in my opinion. I believe what happens in the real world is that it takes you more time to find the less visible dot. But how do you implement that in game?
What is aiming anyway? It's getting your optics aligned with the target and coordinate your movement to keep it there. The laser will help you with that so it influences your chance to hit. That is how it is implemented at the moment and I don't plan to change it. The fact that the laser is harder to catch at longer range makes the aiming process more difficult which results in lesser bonus.
mmm
I'd like to know the brightness's effect on laser in more detail, is it possible to make it tweakable in ini?
At the moment it is not tweakable in the ini. It's a simple multiplier (with values from 0=bright light to 1=darkness) that is calculated from the brightness at the target tile. If it's night and your target is standing next to a lantern the laser dot will be less visible.
However, laser range at night is better in general making lasers more potent at night IF your target is not standing in bright light.
mmm
BTW, tweaked laser bonus bring up another issue: is it possible to add hip fire for crouch and prone? Won't exactly be "hip fire" I suppose, but unsighted, just to full fill the functionality of using only laser in stances other than standing. I wouldn't mind if there's no animation for this.
No. It makes no sense in my opinion because you will have your weapon shouldered when you shoot from crouched or prone position. Using an invalid animation is even more reason to say "No".
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324656]
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Tue, 03 September 2013 17:19
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mmm |
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Messages:63
Registered:May 2013 |
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Well, aiming to me is to point the gun at the intended target. With laser, you get a better indication of where you are point at, which is why I recommended the removal of the hip fire penalty as the bonus, if we consider such penalty as the result of lack of such indication(no sight). And the visibility of the dot doesn't really affect it's accuracy as an indication, that's why I'm against relating the amount of bonus to the visibility of the laser dot. Instead the bonus can be delayed until certain aiming level is achieved to simulated the reduced visibility( to the point it becomes totally invisible= never receiving the bonus).
As for stances, I believe it's still possible to do point shooting from crouch at least. The reason is I see laser as a sight, and it doesn't really work in conjunction with other sights(seeing laser dot through scopes doesn't mean it's helping with aiming). and I'd like the option to use just laser.
I see it's hard to convince you to do a overhaul on what you just did, so I'll just leave everything there. Hopefully you'll see some merits in it later. And don't get me wrong, this is still an improvement compare to the projection factor thing. I just can't hold myself back from asking for more.
The way brightness affect the laser concerns me a little bit. We have brightness half way between broad daylight and total darkness. Like dawn/dusk, or less illuminated tiles. Those situations aren't exactly uncommon. So I'm wondering if it's possible to make the change more "gradual" like the brightness's effect on vision range, rather than just simple on/off. And yes, even I can tell this is complicated.
[Updated on: Tue, 03 September 2013 17:26] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324661]
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Tue, 03 September 2013 18:52
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dinglehopper |
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Messages:134
Registered:January 2008 |
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I am sorry silversurfer; I did not mean to cause code to be changed, nor was it my intent to turn this into a training sim. Somebody asked for real world insight, and since I had it I provided it.
Lasers and hip fire have recently become a big problem in the real shooting world. It is because the popular Call of Duty game franchise added lasers in a way that made hip fire not only possible but in many circumstances preferable. I would wager this is also a large part of the reason lasers and hip fire is a pushed topic here. Call of Duty, a great game I play a lot (almost as much as JA2), is not real life. It is not even close! In real life pistols are not as accurate as or more accurate than sniper rifles at long ranges. Also, shooting "Akimbo" is little more than a great way to waste ammo.
In the real world of shooting, hip fire is only effective in making the enemies keep their heads down, and even then it is less effective then aimed fire. The only reason to hip fire is you don't expect to hit anything anyways but you just want to make some noise and scare people. In real life there is nothing that can ever make hip fire more accurate and deadly than aimed fire; lasers do not suddenly negate all the disadvantages of hip fire. In professional shooting and soildering no one ever hip fires. Even when using "spray and pray" they will be shooting from cover which is not the same as hip fire. In competition shooting the only group that hip fires are the cowboy shooters, but they are a weird lot where accuracy means how close their gun is to actual old cowboy guns and hitting things is really not that important. And even the cowboy shooters don't use lasers to hip shoot.
Here is some real life reasons that hip shooting doesn't happen in real life:
-You cannot aim while hip shooting, not even with a laser.
-Recoil is much harder to counter when shooting from the hip, making taking consecutive shots at the same target actually take longer than if aiming down the sights.
-Jams are much more common when shooting from the hip; this is also due to the inability to counter recoil. (Note this does not have any effect on revolvers, bolt action, or pump action guns; but semi auto handguns are hit by this really hard especially lower velocity rounds like the .45).
-Aiming down the sights is not technically required in USPS or IDPA competitions; this has lead to irrefutable proof that aiming down the sights is faster and more accurate than firing from the hip at any range when the goal is hitting something.
-Guns are not balanced or designed to be fired from the hip (there a few military heavy weapons where this is not true, none of which I have seen in any JA2 mod). This makes hip fire uncomfortable at best and in some cases dangerous to the shooter.
To play fair, here are the benefits of hip shooting:
-You make a lot of noise and scare people when you shoot from the hip.
Now let
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Sergeant
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #324690]
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Wed, 04 September 2013 03:38
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mmm |
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Messages:63
Registered:May 2013 |
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silversurfermmmAnd the visibility of the dot doesn't really affect it's accuracy as an indication, that's why I'm against relating the amount of bonus to the visibility of the laser dot. Instead the bonus can be delayed until certain aiming level is achieved to simulated the reduced visibility( to the point it becomes totally invisible= never receiving the bonus).
And who decides how many aim clicks you have to spend? Each weapon/class has its own limit which is also affected by stance and skills.
No thank you, I don't want to make the system any more complicated than it already is.
I know this is not the central issue and you have no plan to alter the system anymore, but this is actually an easy one. One way is to provide bonus on no aiming when within "best laser range" and require full aiming(100% aim click) at "max laser range", anything in between can be calculated base on the amount of distance exceeds the best range. Let's say half way between best and max range, then it requires 50% of the total aim clicks for the bonus to kick in. I think this will be good enough(for me), but you may come up with something even better.
silversurfermmm
The way brightness affect the laser concerns me a little bit. We have brightness half way between broad daylight and total darkness. Like dawn/dusk, or less illuminated tiles. Those situations aren't exactly uncommon. So I'm wondering if it's possible to make the change more "gradual" like the brightness's effect on vision range, rather than just simple on/off. And yes, even I can tell this is complicated.
The brightness modifier is a FLOAT. It can take any value between 0 and 1 so its effect is gradual. We have 15 light levels in Ja2. That means we will also have 15 values for the brightness modifier.
So can I take it as 15 are too many? I mean if you could be so kind to do 5 brightness levels to cover the brightness in between it will be a pretty smooth transition.
[Updated on: Wed, 04 September 2013 03:39] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #325131]
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Fri, 13 September 2013 03:02
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mmm |
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Messages:63
Registered:May 2013 |
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Well, that's why I proposed "percentage reduction", so the amount is fully open to tweak. Sure, I could do that in the ini to reduce the overall penalty(so hip fire CAN possibly be as powerful as iron sight, even without laser, as it is now) but my intention is to provide the right bonus(in my opinion) for laser. And I imagine it is not that complicated, so it won't cost you too much energy, no?
Anyways, just want to let you know that it won't break anything. If nobody else find the additional option useful, at least I will.
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Corporal
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #326027]
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Tue, 01 October 2013 08:22
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storytime |
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Messages:19
Registered:March 2004 Location: Ontario |
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NCTH goes only some way to fixing shooting mechanics. This is how shooting should work:
Step 1: Aim
This is basically the rate of vector error correction / time. Anyone can line up
a sight precisely with a point. It's that some do it more quickly (and JA has no
wind or ballistics). Input whatever factors you want affecting that rate. For
a game you need to choose a fixed amount of time because that determines the AP
spent when you press a button. For this purpose all characters must spend the
same AP regardless of skill, weapon or firing mode. The only variable is the aim
vector, resulting from your function determining how close the soldier gets in the
given time span. This result must be saved for later use.
Step 2: Shoot
This is essentially the same as aim except that it is the vector error of the
projectile as determined by your weapon and ammo. The deviation is cumulative
with the result from step 1.
Step 3: Adjust Aim
Aim is a state, not a function of pulling the trigger. (This is where all games
get it wrong; because all commercial devs copy the wrong methods of previous games
resulting in a perpetual chain of wrongness). Here the aim state is shaken by
recoil. This result must again be saved for later use.
Step 4: Repeat Shot or Reset Aim
When a soldier presses the trigger again shooting at the same target he must
start aiming from where he was aiming after the last shot (at least relative to the
target). Otherwise the soldier is executing a redundant process of repeating Step
1 from ground zero, spending all of the AP for that. This creates the absurd
problem of needing to include aim AP with every trigger pull (for every firing mode
for every weapon if the weapon.ini is any indicator). Aim should only reset if
something is done that warrants it: spending/forfeiting AP elsewhere than shooting
at that target since the last shot. If you want to account for target movement, the
only way is to save something about the last AP use of each soldier on the map,
representing whether, how fast and in what direction the soldier is currently
moving. Expending prep AP again in the next shot on either current or next turn
should reduce aim error from where it already is.
Example code:
Vector aimVector; //current state of weapon aim
Vector shotVector; //the direction the bullet goes
Vector shot() {
aimVector = getAimVector(soldier);
shotVector = aimVector + getBulletVector(weapon);
return shotVector;
}
I don't know what data type the JA code actually uses for those values. I'm just getting the gist of it. The lack of a true aim state is ultimately why it's better to fire in auto in the longest possible bursts rather than make short bursts. There are also too many pointless steps/factors added/retained in NCTH. The entire target centered aperture with every shot basis must be replaced for any sensible mechanic to be implemented.
Another possibility is having a focus mode. A soldier can have a focus target. AP can be manually spent to increase aim precision at any point. It can also be spent automatically to maintain aim on the target's turn based on how much AP the target spends or some such.
[Updated on: Tue, 01 October 2013 08:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: (Potential) NCTH Code Change Discussion[message #334829]
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Thu, 07 August 2014 20:31
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Tyxe |
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Messages:78
Registered:May 2012 Location: France |
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I quickly playtested it taking some screenshots to easily notice the difference.
And it works great !
I strongly suggest the option to be TRUE by default but lowering the vanilla IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS to 5 or 10.
Only good consequences doing that IMO : a bit less accurate very close shot, as accurate close shot and more accurate medium/long shots.
[Updated on: Thu, 07 August 2014 21:56] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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