Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Coding Talk » (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)
| (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #303876]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 01:27 
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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So messing around with the XML Editor, one of the things that drives me nuts, and I'm sure must really drive Wil473 and Smeagol insane, is the crazy amount of work that's required to add and maintain attachment consistency across an increasing number of guns and other items.
So I have a quick solution: The NAS Receiver. Common Attachment Framework.
Basically, we add 3 UINT64/128 tags to items.xml:
- nasReceiver AvailableAttachmentPoint
- nasAcceptedReceiver AttachmentPoint
- nasAttachReceiverAPCost AttachToPointAPCost
We can use these in a similar fashion (ie: bitwise operations) to the nasAttachmentClass tag, and simply set the nasReceiver AvailableAttachmentPoint tag on the weapon/base item, and the nasAcceptedReceiver AttachmentPoint tag on the attachment. Then we can set a common AP cost across all base items with nasAttachReceiverAPCost AttachToPointAPCost.
For example:
Say we have the basic Laser Sight attachment. This thing can be attached to every gun in the game. But what a pain in the ass to have to link it to EVERY gun in the game. And it's so much worse in AIMNAS or AFS, where the number of weapons is much, much higher. *Whew* I get tired just thinking about it.
First we need to do some once only setup legwork.
We need to define a list of possible receivers. For this example, I'll keep it simple, but with enough meat so you get the idea:
0 None
1 Pistol Small
2 Pistol Medium
4 Pistol Large
8 Revolver
16 Large Revolver
32 Machine pistol
63 Any Handgun
64 Submachinegun
128 Shotgun
256 Rifle
512 Assault Rifle
1024 Sniper Rifle
2048 Light Machinegun
4095 Any Gun
Now we could add on things like GLs, Rail systems and AK receivers, and so on. But I'll leave that to your imagination for now...
Next we set all the nasReceiver AvailableAttachmentPoint tags on our guns in the XML Editor (using edit mode in the grid, so we can do it quickly).
Now back to our Laser Sight. We set the nasAcceptedReceiver AttachmentPoint tag to 4095 = Any gun. And we're done. We can also go ahead and delete that massive list of entries in Attachments.xml now to make the game go faster. (It would work with Launchables.xml as well)
Any thoughts, comments or concerns? I can probably get this implemented in the next day or two.
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303877]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 01:45 
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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So you're thinking about a receiver/rail system? Nice one. That would really ease up things.
You've already thought about AK-receivers, so you'd obviously need a distinction for ARs between NATO and AK. Perhaps even more (chinese stuff?). Same for sniper rifles (NATO vs. WP bc of scopes (PSO-3) ).
How would you handle new rail system vs. 'unrailed' guns? I mean, there might be attachments that fit on a M16A4 but do not fit on a M16A1.
Magwell adapters only fit for a specific caliber. How would you handle that?
Foregrips wouldn't make sense on single-shot shotguns, but would be useful on automatic shotguns, so you'd need 2 flags there...
SMGs that already have a built-in silencer won't accept a new one, so you'd need new tags there. This is under the assumption that the silencer effect has been calculated into the weapon stats, if its just a inseparable default attachment than your system is ok.
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea. I guess what I'm saying is that once this gets adopted, people will soon find guns that are in some way distinct, and you'll therefore need a lot of new flags. If you add new flags afterwards, you'll have a ton of work.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 01:54] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303880]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 02:21
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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Exceptions are still possible, and Attachments.xml and Launchables.xml will remain in play. In fact I don't see any way around having that per-item level of flexibility.
My hope with this new approach is to catch maybe 80% of the attachments, and especially those that are common across many items.
Quote:
You've already thought about AK-receivers, so you'd obviously need a distinction for ARs between NATO and AK. Perhaps even more (chinese stuff?). Same for sniper rifles (NATO vs. WP bc of scopes (PSO-3) ).
I'm thinking I can get away with just tags for AK / NATO receivers (in different sizes?) and then OR them with the tags for the weapons.
One possible issue is that I'm not sure if there's ever a case where you'd have a reason to limit the number of attachments. If so, then the bitwise approach is less ideal.
Quote:
How would you handle new rail system vs. 'unrailed' guns? I mean, there might be attachments that fit on a M16A4 but do not fit on a M16A1.
Right, so in this case, we'd see that the M16A1 receiver is "Assault Rifle+NATO" or something, and M16A4 is "Assault Rifle+NATO+RIS".
Quote:
Magwell adapters only fit for a specific caliber. How would you handle that?
Foregrips wouldn't make sense on single-shot shotguns, but would be useful on automatic shotguns, so you'd need 2 flags there...
These are some good examples of exceptions that would require keeping the old structure in place at the same time.
Quote:
SMGs that already have a built-in silencer won't accept a new one, so you'd need new tags there. This is under the assumption that the silencer effect has been calculated into the weapon stats, if its just a inseparable default attachment than your system is ok.
Silencers are an interesting wrinkle, in that they apply to many weapons, but also cannot be applied to all weapons. An extra tag doesn't really cut it here either, since the tags are inclusive rather than exclusive. Might be able to do something in combination with nasAttachmentClass...
Perhaps the approach to take here is to implement a list of attachments that are not compatible with a given item?
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea. I guess what I'm saying is that once this gets adopted, people will soon find guns that are in some way distinct, and you'll therefore need a lot of new flags. If you add new flags afterwards, you'll have a ton of work.
Yep - hence keeping the old way too  But I do agree that we should nail down a list of initial receiver values as best we can first.
If anyone has any good ideas for an initial set of possible receiver values, feel free to post 'em.
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303881]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 02:49
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Madd MugsyExceptions are still possible, and Attachments.xml and Launchables.xml will remain in play. In fact I don't see any way around having that per-item level of flexibility.
My hope with this new approach is to catch maybe 80% of the attachments, and especially those that are common across many items.
Quote:
You've already thought about AK-receivers, so you'd obviously need a distinction for ARs between NATO and AK. Perhaps even more (chinese stuff?). Same for sniper rifles (NATO vs. WP bc of scopes (PSO-3) ).
I'm thinking I can get away with just tags for AK / NATO receivers (in different sizes?) and then OR them with the tags for the weapons.
Not sure how you want to do that. If you want to OR, this still means that once the receiver is correct, the attachment applies. This would mean your receiver tag has to be given to a subset of guns where it always applies.
Madd MugsyOne possible issue is that I'm not sure if there's ever a case where you'd have a reason to limit the number of attachments. If so, then the bitwise approach is less ideal.
Quote:
How would you handle new rail system vs. 'unrailed' guns? I mean, there might be attachments that fit on a M16A4 but do not fit on a M16A1.
Right, so in this case, we'd see that the M16A1 receiver is "Assault Rifle+NATO" or something, and M16A4 is "Assault Rifle+NATO+RIS".
So a rail-only scope would have the tag "Assault Rifle+NATO+RIS"? Ok, that would work.
Madd MugsyQuote:
Magwell adapters only fit for a specific caliber. How would you handle that?
Foregrips wouldn't make sense on single-shot shotguns, but would be useful on automatic shotguns, so you'd need 2 flags there...
These are some good examples of exceptions that would require keeping the old structure in place at the same time.
Quote:
SMGs that already have a built-in silencer won't accept a new one, so you'd need new tags there. This is under the assumption that the silencer effect has been calculated into the weapon stats, if its just a inseparable default attachment than your system is ok.
Silencers are an interesting wrinkle, in that they apply to many weapons, but also cannot be applied to all weapons. An extra tag doesn't really cut it here either, since the tags are inclusive rather than exclusive. Might be able to do something in combination with nasAttachmentClass...
Wouldn't it be possible to give, for example, the MP5SSD the values of an unsilenced MP5 and then make a silencer a default and inseparable attachment? Same result, nobody can alter the silencer, and one less exception.
Madd MugsyPerhaps the approach to take here is to implement a list of attachments that are not compatible with a given item?
In that case you will end of with 3 xmls: the receiver-xml, which will do most stuff, Attachments.xml which catches most exceptions, and a new xml for a few exceptions. I do not know if that is easier to maintain.
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303907]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 18:51
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada |
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A Quad Rail handguard would cover a large chunk of Attachments.XML. Technically I would suggest two: lite and full length (allows RIS launchers). I was toying with the idea of using NAS' attachments-adding-attachment capability to pull this off. No AR-15 would have RIS attachments that fit the hand guard, instead any AR sold with a RIS Quad would include a RIS Quad Rail as a default attachment.
If you want an idea of how many attachment "families" are possible in-game, take a look at AFS/UC's RIS adapter system. I've got receiver adapters (Optics slot) for most major weapon types, as well as hand guard adapters that add RIS quads or tri-rails (G3 & MP5 adapters). Semi-related is the modular stock attachment system (covers 3 attachments).
One idea would be use a bitmask, and the attachment list is built up from whatever number it represents:
0000001 = RIS optics
0000010 = RSA optics
0000100 = Scope Rings
0001000 = RIS Quad Handguard
0010000 = RIS Tri-rail Handguard
0001001 = weapon that could attach all RIS optics and all RIS Handguard attachments
0010001 = weapon that could attach all RIS optics but only RIS Handguard attachments that fit side and bottom rails
EDIT: on rereading the first post, I think this is what Madd Mugsy was suggesting.
My only concern is that this system still allows attachments to add attachments to the base item.
EDIT2: why is this suddenly looking like the NAS Layout Class XML, we couldn't directly use the NAS Layout Class as it defines what slots appears and where, but in my case at least slot location and attachment usually have a strong correlation. Then again, I went out of my way to try and replicate what I did with NAS 0.6 with NAS 0.7 in my projects... adding to DepressivesBrot's impression that we're replicating NAS 0.6.
One of the nice things about NAS 0.6, was the lack of a large Attachments list. Attachments went into slots and slots were then assigned to guns. The old NAS 0.6 slots act sort of like the Receivers being proposed here just with smaller lists of attachments.
EDIT3:
Summary, is the following how the system will work for BR display of attachments and in-game use:
Total Attachment List = Attachments defined by proposed Receiver System + direct to item in Attachments.XML + attachments-added-by-attachments (can attachments make use of the Receiver System?)
If the above is correct, then I do not see a problem with exceptions like the MP5SD5, as there are options:
1) just divide barrel attachments among muzzle "Receiver types" that can be added together as needed
2) all suppressors attach directly in Attachments.XML
3) exceptions like the MP5SD5 does not use the receiver system and just have attachments directly assigned in Attachments.XML
[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 19:35] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303910]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 20:21
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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Quote:
Summary, is the following how the system will work for BR display of attachments and in-game use:
Total Attachment List = Attachments defined by proposed Receiver System + direct to item in Attachments.XML + attachments-added-by-attachments (can attachments make use of the Receiver System?)
Yep.
And the attachments themselves can have the nasReceiver tag set on them. When the game looks at an object for its nasReceiver tag, it will also add on any nasReceiver tags set by attachments. This is similar to the way the nasLayoutClass tag works now.
You could have a gun with a "NATO + Assault Rifle" receiver, and add an attachment with a "RIS Tri-Rail" receiver to get a gun with all three receivers.
I'm playing around with this now, using NATO, AK and RIS receiver tags, each broken down into Small, Medium, Large and Sniper values. I've also created tags for most sizes and types of weapons.
My test data looks something like this (including all OR'ed tags):
0 None
1 Pistol Small
2 Pistol Medium
4 Pistol Large
7 Any Pistol
8 Revolver
16 Revolver Large
24 Any Revolver
32 Machine Pistol
39 Any Pistol / Machine Pistol
63 Any Handgun
64 Submachinegun
128 Shotgun
256 Hunting Rifle
512 Assault Rifle
576 Assault Rifle / SMG
1024 Sniper Rifle
2048 Light Machinegun
2624 Assault Rifle / SMG / LMG
4096 WWII Rifle
4352 Hunting / WWII Rifle
8000 Guns - Two Handed (Not Shotguns)
8128 Guns - Two Handed
8148 Guns - Medium-Large
8191 Any Gun
8192 NATO Small
8193 NATO Pistol Small
8194 NATO Pistol Medium
8196 NATO Pistol Large
8200 NATO Revolver
8208 NATO Revolver Large
8224 NATO Machine Pistol
8255 NATO Handgun
16384 NATO Medium
16448 NATO Submachinegun
32768 NATO Large
32896 NATO Shotgun
33024 NATO Hunting Rifle
33280 NATO Assault Rifle
34816 NATO Light Machinegun
36864 NATO WWII Rifle
49152 NATO Medium / Large
65536 AK Small
65537 AK Pistol Small
65538 AK Pistol Medium
65540 AK Pistol Large
65568 AK Machine Pistol
65599 AK Handgun
131072 AK Medium
131136 AK Submachinegun
262144 AK Large
262272 AK Shotgun
262400 AK Hunting Rifle
262656 AK Assault Rifle
264192 AK Light Machinegun
266240 AK WWII Rifle
393216 AK Medium / Large
524288 26.5mm GL
1048576 40mm GL
1048704 40mm GL / Shotgun
2097152 40mm VOG GL
4194304 40mm MS GL
8388608 43mm GL
16777216 37mm GL
33554432 30mm GL
67108864 RIS Bottom
134217728 20mm GL
268435456 25mm GL
536870912 RIS Small
536879105 RIS NATO Pistol Small
536879106 RIS NATO Pistol Medium
536879108 RIS NATO Pistol Large
536879136 RIS NATO Machine Pistol
1073741824 RIS Medium
1073758272 RIS NATO Submachinegun
1073872960 RIS AK Submachinegun
2147483648 RIS Large
2147516544 RIS NATO Shotgun
2147516672 RIS NATO Hunting Rifle
2147516928 RIS NATO Assault Rifle
2147518464 RIS NATO Light Machinegun
2147520512 RIS NATO WWII Rifle
2147746304 RIS AK Assault Rifle
2147749888 RIS AK WWII Rifle
3221225472 RIS Medium / Large
4294967296 NATO Sniper
4294968320 NATO Sniper Rifle
4294972416 NATO WWII Sniper Rifle
4295000064 NATO Large / Sniper
4295001600 NATO DMR Rifle
4295016448 NATO Medium / Large / Sniper
4295024640 NATO Any
8589934592 AK Sniper
8589935616 AK Sniper Rifle
8590196736 AK Large / Sniper
8590198272 AK DMR Rifle
8590327808 AK Medium / Large / Sniper
8590393344 AK Any
17179869184 RIS Sniper
19327352832 RIS Large / Sniper
20401094656 RIS Medium / Large / Sniper
20937965568 RIS Any
21474837504 RIS NATO Sniper Rifle
23622354432 RIS NATO DMR Rifle
24696094720 RIS Medium/Large/Sniper or NATO Large/Sniper
25232990208 RIS Any or NATO Any
25769804800 RIS AK Sniper Rifle
27917551104 RIS AK DMR Rifle
33286291456 Any Large/Sniper (or RIS Medium)
34359738368 HK Receiver
34359754816 HK NATO Submachinegun
34359771648 HK NATO Assault Rifle
34359773184 HK NATO Light Machinegun
35433496640 HK RIS NATO Submachinegun
36507255296 HK RIS NATO Assault Rifle
36507256832 HK RIS NATO Light Machinegun
38654706688 HK NATO Sniper Rifle
38654739968 HK NATO DMR Rifle
55834575872 HK RIS NATO Sniper Rifle
57982092800 HK RIS NATO DMR Rifle
It's probably overkill  BTW, I set it to use "Decimal" in the editor and UINT128 in the game so that there are lots of possible tags. Also notice the GL tags -- this approach works for launchers too.
I think we could do muzzle attachments with tags as well, but there gets to be a point where this approach becomes more work than its worth
I'm using a lot of AIMNAS attachments in my testing, and I did manage to get the list of attachments from Attachments.xml for a given gun down by around 75%.
More examples, for those interested:
(These are not going to be 100% accurate to real life)
Attachments
ISM-V-IR Aiming Module RIS Medium / Large / Sniper
Battle Scope, 7x RIS Medium/Large/Sniper or NATO Large/Sniper
Reflex Sight RIS Any or NATO Any (I don't allow these on AK weapons in my games)
Old Aimpoint Projector HK Receiver
Rifle LAM RIS Large / Sniper
Bipod Any Large/Sniper (or RIS Medium)
PSO-1 Scope AK Large / Sniper
Laser Sight Any Gun
Small Scope, 2x Guns - Medium-Large
Duckbill Shotgun
Guns
Glock 18 NATO Pistol Medium
Colt Anaconda NATO Revolver Large
AKS-74 AK Assault Rifle
Barrett M468 RIS NATO Assault Rifle
HK G36 HK NATO Assault Rifle
HK G36 RAS HK RIS NATO Assault Rifle
FN SCAR-H SV RIS NATO DMR Rifle
I'm still working on adding GLs to the NATO/AK/RIS mix. EDIT: Wow, those were pretty easy actually.
In general, I think this system works best for attachments which have a wide variety of possible receivers, and it isn't worth the headache of setting it up if an attachment only works on a few items.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 20:30] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303918]
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Wed, 25 April 2012 23:41
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 dinglehopper |
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Messages:134
Registered:January 2008 |
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I think you are going in the right direction, and I like where you are headed. But please allow a suggestion.
Why not break it up into three seperate bitmasks. It seems to me like by far most items go ontop of the gun, so everything you would expect to go on top should fall under one bitmask maybe called scopes and lasers or top rail or top mount or whatever. Then take the muzzle and underbarrel as a second bitmask. And finally the magwell trigger group and anything not covered by the first two (rod and spring, etc).
You are sort of doing this already, you just have them all jumbled into one large list that is going to get larger and harder to read. This way, when you add it to the xml editor, which I assume you plan to do, you can seperate it into the three areas to make it more mangable for the modders as well.
Also, you seem to be mostly describing the gun for the attachment (pistol small, nato pistol large, ak sniper, etc) but finding yourself aometimes describing the attachment for the gun (40mm gl, RIS bottom, etc). I would probably switch it to trying to describe the attachment for the gun in all cases. It will make it less confusing and you may find allow you to shrink your list because it will make the bit mapping more usable.
So for example I would do your attachments you have done already more like this with a few added to extend the example;
Scopes and Lasers
ISM-V-IR Aiming Module Scope_RIS_Battle, Laser_Scope_Combo, NATO_All, Scope_All
Battle Scope, 7x Scope_RIS_Battle, Scope_NATO_Large, Scope_Large, NATO_ALL, Scope_All
Reflex Sight Reflex_RIS, Reflex_NATO, NATO_All, Scope_All
Old Aimpoint Projector HK_Only, Laser_All
Rifle LAM Laser_RIS_Large, Laser All, NATO_All, WP_All
PSO-1 Scope Scope_WP_Large, Scope_WP_Sniper, WP_All, Scope_All
Laser Sight ATTACHES_TO_ALL (have this be zero in each bitmap, and force it)
Small Scope, 2x Scope_Small, NATO_All, WP_All, Scope_All
Muzzle and underBarrel
Duckbill Shotgun
Bipod Bipod_Normal, Bipod_All
Grippod Forgrip_Grippod, Bipod_Normal, Forgrip_All, Bipod_All
Magwell and Trigger
9mm drum extender Magwell_9mm
Then let the guns pick the categories they want to subscribe to.
As for the magwell adaptors, you will just have to make an entry for every caliber (see in example above).
I have to run and didn't really get time to flesh out everything i wanted to say, let me know if you have any questions or you think i am wrong (i can handle that no prob, wife tells me it all the time and we still married). Just wanted to offer a suggestion that may help, thanks for doing this though as i think it will be a great help to the modders.
DH
[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 23:44] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303929]
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Thu, 26 April 2012 09:44
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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Interesting.... What would an assault rifle's tags look like using this approach?
I must admit I'm not exactly thrilled by the ever extending list. The big reason it's so long is that it includes all the possible OR combinations, as they need to be added to the list in order for them to show up in a dropdown in the XML editor.
I've now implemented my 1st list from above as a proof of concept, and I'm working on a new approach to the list, simplifying and extending where needed. I'm adding default attachments along the way -- they really are critical to keeping this approach simple! As a side perk, default inseparable attachments show you a visual overview of the weapon's abilities at a quick glance in the EDB.
One way to cut down on the list of values and OR'd values would be to display all the tags in checkboxes... you could select the valid checkboxes for each item in its detail form. This becomes more difficult and time consuming to implement, however, as the checkboxes need to be created dynamically to correspond to the list. It is also slower to edit the data, since you could no longer do it in the grid. Making it editable in the grid is one of the things I was shooting for, since it dramatically cuts down the time required to apply the concept to an existing set of data.
The idea of using three fields instead of one gave me pause. I like the idea of shortening the list, but why not use five fields? One each for the top, side, bottom, barrel, and magwell. Why not add one more for the stock to make six? Things could get messy quick... Once I go down the road of having more than one field, I find myself anticipating the need to add a whole new child table. And a child table in this case again means that you won't be able to edit the data quickly in the grid.
Quote:
Also, you seem to be mostly describing the gun for the attachment (pistol small, nato pistol large, ak sniper, etc) but finding yourself aometimes describing the attachment for the gun (40mm gl, RIS bottom, etc). I would probably switch it to trying to describe the attachment for the gun in all cases. It will make it less confusing and you may find allow you to shrink your list because it will make the bit mapping more usable.
Actually, I'm trying to describe all the available receivers on the gun, and then which receiver the attachments fits on. The issue I see with taking the reverse approach is that the guns have so many more attributes to consider than the attachments do. The guns ARE the receivers, so it makes sense to describe them in detail, since they will almost always need to hold more than one type of attachment.
For instance, say a rifle LAM only fits on a large RIS side mount. So in its nasAcceptedReceiver tag it should say, in English for clarity, "RIS Side Mount Large". It doesn't fit anywhere else, so it doesn't need any other values.
However, an assault rifle probably has multiple receivers on it, so it can hold more than one thing. It may contain that large RIS side mount, and it may also contain a large RIS top mount, and a bottom mount for GLs, and it may be able to mount other NATO scopes too. So it would need a nasReceiver tag that looked like "RIS Side Mount Large OR RIS Top Mount Large OR RIS Bottom Mount OR NATO Top Mount Large". We could then condense this tag combination to the more readable "RIS NATO Assault Rifle" value to use in the dropdown in the editor.
And it's combinations like that which are making the list crazy large. So now that I've had a first go at this, I have a better idea of which values can be cut from my list and how to minimize the number of values in the next list.
EDIT: Just had a thought... Question to all .NET devs: I wonder if I could put a combobox in the datagridview that has working checkboxes in it? And then somehow I could combine the resulting text to display it in the grid, and the values back into a bitmask for storage.... This would eliminate the need to store any OR'd values in the lookup table.
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303930]
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Thu, 26 April 2012 10:05
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| dinglehopper |
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Messages:134
Registered:January 2008 |
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You can do that in java, but I have never tried it in .net before. Still, they are close enough that I bet you can. Have you thought about a tree list with checkboxes? That would make it easier to catagorize the items and they could check main branch to get all the sub branches or the trunk if they just want everything.
Dh
Edit: just remembered in .net it is the treeView class, and I am pretty sure it has checkbox functionality built in.
[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 10:12] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303932]
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Thu, 26 April 2012 10:07
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada |
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A single bitmask should be able to accomplish taking that list down further. Again this is based on my own project as it already has various families of guns using adapters to add RIS. Basically if a set of three or more attachments are common to a couple of guns it gets a "receiver":
0 None
1 pistol under barrel rail
2 pistol modular sights - Match, Reflex, Compact Holo Sights
4 RIS Optics
8 Russian Small Arms (RSA) Optics
16 SVD Optics
32 Scope Rings
64 HK Clamp Optics - Aim-Point-Projector, Clamp 4x Scope, RIS rail
128 AR-15 Carrying Handle - optics and a RIS rail
256 Modular Tactical Stock - yes I know one bit isn't going going to be enough for AIMNAS and all its stocks
512 Light RIS Hand Guard - RIS Grips, RIS Bipods, LAM
1024 Medium RIS Hand Guard - above + M203QD
2048 Heavy RIS Hand Guard - above + all RIS Launchers
4096 Top RIS Hand Guard - LAM's and RIS Bipod (weapon hangs from bipod)
8192 AK Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, GP-30, RIS Handguard
16384 MP5 Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, RIS Tri-Rail
32768 G3 Hand Guard - above + HK79
65536 M16 Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, M203, three sizes of RIS Quad
131072 M4 Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, two sizes of RIS Quad incl. the MWS which allows short barrel M203QD to be attached
262144 Pistol Suppressors
524288 Magnum Suppressors
1048576 Intermediate Cartridge Suppressor
2097152 AK Suppressors
4194304 Hi-Power Ammo Suppressor
8388608 40mm NATO Grenades
16777216 40mm Russian Grenades
33554432 37mm Grenades
67108864 Basic Vest Attachments
With bitmasks the above should be able to cover all the most common attachments. Magazine Adapters I'd think would work better on a case by case basis in Attachments.XML.
EDIT: Examples, and it took a while for me to complete the list...
AK-74 = 8 + 8192 = 8200 (RSA optics, AK Handguard)
AK-107 = 8 + 16 + 8192 = 8216 (Russian/Soviet NV optics mount = RSA + SVD optics)
AK-74 Tactical Stock = 8 + 256 + 8192
M16 = 128 + 256 + 65536 = 65920 (early model M16)
M16A4 = 4 + 256 + 65536 = 65796 (Flat Top M16)
REC7 = 4 + 256 + 2048 = 2308 (comes with Quad RIS handguard)
M4A1 = 4 + 256 + 131072 = 131332 (almost like a Flat Top M16, but it will never allow large launchers to be attached)
The above actually now looks more like ChrisL's NAS 0.7 than Warmsteel's NAS 0.6, either way nesting bundles of attachments.
[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 10:29] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303939]
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Thu, 26 April 2012 16:48
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada |
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dinglehopper It does bring up an interesting point though, why can't we just do this be the different attachment systems like the different rails, universal mount, ak side mount, svd side mount (which takes the smaller ak side mount items as well), threaded barrel, etc?
Take a look at one of my projects, that's more or less the impression I'm trying to do with my NAS implementation. EDIT: Now if you're actually talking about attachments based around how they attach, that was accomplished in NAS 0.6, but this method lacked compatibility with OAS. Once again, look at my projects as I tried to carry on the feel of my original NAS 0.6 modifications into the present day. This "receiver" system looks to be compatible with NAS as all we're doing is trying to figure out a more efficient way to copy attachment lists across similar guns and items.
Which brings up issues with the name of the thread:
1) this isn't/shouldn't be NAS only as we are just figuring out a better way to build attachment lists
2) "receiver" is is kind of misleading, as I originally thought this thread was talking about a way for attachments to change a weapon's calibres without converting the item wholesale (it has been asked for before)
[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 17:05] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303961]
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Fri, 27 April 2012 09:20
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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Quote:How about: (New) Common Attachment Framework
That title will work  1st post edited.
Quote:how many bits is NAS using for layouts?
NAS looks like it was supposed to be using 64 unsigned bits, but I noticed it is actually only using 32 signed bits (max value = 2,147,483,647). I'm going to change it to use an unsigned 64 bit integer instead (max value = 18,446,744,073,709,551,615). I've just got a few more places to change it in the code. This is pretty much as big as it can get. Any bigger and it would likely be easier to just implement an alternate solution than to add code for special 128/256 bit integers
In the XML Editor, BTW, these fields are using the Decimal data type, which is the biggest type allowed by VB.NET (max value = +/-79,228,162,514,264,337,593,543,950,335). Apart from Byte and Char, VB doesn't appear to have unsigned integers, so we're stuck with Decimal. Technically, this means you can put decimal points in the field. Expect weird things (rounding, at least) if the game picks up any decimal points....
Quote:
I'm surprised that this wasn't planned to be OAS compatible. Both OAS/NAS use the same Attachments.XML, and if that is cut down for only one of the two systems then that raises the XML overhead (ie. need to support both systems which lead to the whole NAS 0.7 winning out over NAS 0.6 in the end).
Good point. I just pegged this thing initially for a NAS addon since that's where all the action is. I've actually already changed the code (very, very minor changes were required) to make it work with OAS as well.
BTW, using your bitmask list above, I had trouble figuring out where sniper rifles fit in. A sniper rifle should be able to have rails to mount a Rifle LAM, but without some additional differentiation, I ended up with foregrips and GLs on my sniper rifles LMGs face a similar issue.
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| Re: The NAS Receiver[message #303964]
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Fri, 27 April 2012 10:32
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| DepressivesBrot |
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Messages:3651
Registered:July 2009 |
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Madd MugsyTechnically, this means you can put decimal points in the field. Expect weird things (rounding, at least) if the game picks up any decimal points.... I checked the doc for the string to int function not long ago. It should treat the decimal point as a terminal condition and just ignore everything from there on. Anyway, just don't set a point
Madd MugsyBTW, using your bitmask list above, I had trouble figuring out where sniper rifles fit in. A sniper rifle should be able to have rails to mount a Rifle LAM, but without some additional differentiation, I ended up with foregrips and GLs on my sniper rifles LMGs face a similar issue. As they are standardized rails, there's no compelling technical reason not to allow them. Who knows, maybe you're out of ammo for the DMR but it's the only platform to use the fancy underbarrel grenade launcher on.
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| (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #303980]
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Fri, 27 April 2012 18:19
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada |
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Madd MugsyBTW, using your bitmask list above, I had trouble figuring out where sniper rifles fit in. A sniper rifle should be able to have rails to mount a Rifle LAM, but without some additional differentiation, I ended up with foregrips and GLs on my sniper rifles LMGs face a similar issue.
Generic Tac Rail covered DMR = 4 + 4096 = 4100 (RIS Optics + Top RIS Hand Guard)
However, the non-RIS bipods in my mod present a bit of a problem for me. I've got three of the things: Bipod(original Ja2), Integral Bipod, and Heavy (Integral) Bipod. They don't always go into the same NAS slot as the integrals are kept out of the way so that underbarrel slot may still take a grip, RIS hand guard, or grenade launcher. For my purposes weapons that don't have a hand guard RIS of some sort, DMR/LAM/rifles, will just have the bipods assigned in Attachments.XML.
In addition to the two Attachment/receiver bundles I added yesterday, though of two more:
FN FAL Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, FAL RIS Hand Guard
Misc. Classic Rifle Front End - Bipod, Grip, Universal RIS Block
Updated List:
0 None
1 pistol under barrel rail
2 pistol modular sights - Match, Reflex, Compact Holo Sights
4 RIS Optics
8 Russian Small Arms (RSA) Optics
16 SVD Optics
32 Scope Rings
64 HK Clamp Optics - Aim-Point-Projector, Clamp 4x Scope, RIS rail
128 AR-15 Carrying Handle - optics and a RIS rail
256 Modular Tactical Stock - yes I know one bit isn't going going to be enough for AIMNAS and all its stocks
512 Light RIS Hand Guard - RIS Grips, RIS Bipods, LAM
1024 Medium RIS Hand Guard - above + M203QD
2048 Heavy RIS Hand Guard - above + all RIS Launchers
4096 Top RIS Hand Guard - LAM's and RIS Bipod (weapon hangs from bipod)
8192 AK Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, GP-30, RIS Handguard
16384 MP5 Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, RIS Tri-Rail
32768 G3 Hand Guard - above + HK79
65536 M16 Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, M203, three sizes of RIS Quad
131072 M4 Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, two sizes of RIS Quad incl. the MWS which allows short barrel M203QD to be attached
262144 Pistol Suppressors
524288 Magnum Suppressors
1048576 Intermediate Cartridge Suppressor
2097152 AK Suppressors
4194304 Hi-Power Ammo Suppressor
8388608 40mm NATO Grenades
16777216 40mm Russian Grenades
33554432 37mm Grenades
67108864 Basic Vest Attachments
134217728 SMG suppressors (Smeagol will need this one)
268435456 Shotgun muzzle - forgot about the chokes and in the case of mods, shotgun suppressors
536870912 FN FAL Hand Guard - Bipod, Grip, FAL RIS Hand Guard
1073741824 Misc. Classic Rifle Front End - Bipod, Grip, Universal RIS Block
Modders will be able to adjust what each bit in the bitmask is used for right? I'm only thinking of examples of common attachment/weapon groups. I have not optimized it by sorting it for frequency of use (most common attachments/weapon groups with lower integers). Then again if there is a user-friendly interface in the XML Editor for setting up these lists, sorting the bitmask becomes a moot point.
EDIT: sorry inadvertently renamed the topic back to the old name. Copied new title from the first post. EDIT2: on closer examination, it looks like we just kept the old name after the change to the first post...
[Updated on: Fri, 27 April 2012 18:33] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #303983]
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Fri, 27 April 2012 19:26
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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Quote:
Long or Int64 for 64-bit Integer, UInt 64 or ULong for 64-bit unsigned Integer, Short or Int16 for 16-bit Integer, UShort or UInt16 for unsigned 16-bit integer, Integer or Int32 for 32-bit Integer and finally UInteger or UInt32 for unsigned 32-bit Integer. No need for decimal, VB.net does have most (if not all) of the needed types.
DOh! Forgot about those new .Net types. I'll change the VB code to use UINT64 then.
Quote:
Modders will be able to adjust what each bit in the bitmask is used for right?
Yes. I'll be providing the AttachmentPoint table in the XML editor, so you can edit it there. The game won't care what the values are, as all it does is compare AvailableAttachmentPoint (old: nasReceiver) with AttachmentPoint (old: nasAcceptedReceiver - note I reversed the tag names a bit there).
Default 1.13 will probably just go out with just a "0 (None)" value in the AttachmentPoint table, at least at first.
I'm also working on a code generator tool, and need to look into fiddling with dropdown checkboxes, but those may come later.
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| Re: (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #304041]
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Sun, 29 April 2012 21:46
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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After playing around with this some more I'm rethinking dinglehopper's idea about having more than one list. There are so many different possible combinations that the list becomes unwieldy pretty quickly.
I was thinking we could retain the single list, and single AvailableAttachmentPoint tag within the game, but enable the xmls to contain more than one AvailableAttachmentPoint tag. This would work similarly to the DefaultAttachment tag, and yes it means it's ugly, and not great db design practice, adding extra columns like that, but it'd be easy to add in. All the AvailableAttachmentPoint tags in the item would be OR'd together by the game, and we could have several dropdowns in the editor instead of just one.
I don't think we'd need to apply this to the other AttachmentPoint tag though. Attachments tend to connect to just one or a few places, whereas guns have many available connection points.
EDIT: testing this out now with 10 AvailableAttachmentPoint tags. I also think we can cut down the number of DefaultAttachment tags from 20 to 10... any opposed to that?
EDIT:
Sample picture:
In this iteration, I'm just using the CAF for RIS and AK stuff so far. But the additional fields should make adding stocks, barrels and magwells much easier.
Example of attachment granting RIS attachment points:
The CAF makes these items much easier 
[Updated on: Sun, 29 April 2012 22:38] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #305570]
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Sun, 03 June 2012 21:58
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| Madd_Mugsy |
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Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada |
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All you need to do really is to add one more 2^X number to the Common Attachment Points grid. It doesn't have to be 1, but that would make sense if you're trying to keep things nice and organized.
Then just open up the Guns grid view and set all values in AttachmentPointX to your new value. (Use the context menu option to do this really fast).
If you've got a bunch set up already and don't want to reorganize, just assign the new value to AttachmentPoint10. If you have existing attachment points set up, this won't interfere with them at all, and the #s are both arbitrary and meaningful at the same time. They are arbitrary in the sense that when you reload your data fresh, ie: if XmlWorkingData is toasted with a new version of the editor, then the AttachmentPoint fields will be pushed together, eliminating any empty space between them. However, the numbers are meaningful in that they provide an order for the points to be created.
This same principle applies to DefaultAttachments, and the order of items there is much more important. For instance, it is possible to have a DefaultAttachment add new attachment slots, and then have a subsequent default attachment use one of them. Of course, the other way around wouldn't work, as the attachment wouldn't have any slots to use yet.
Another CAF approach would be to create entries for each gun type and then just add an additional "Any gun" entry that ORs them together. Then add the "Any gun" point to your attachment and the gun types to the various guns.
But I digress... It's doable now and is pretty easy to do.
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| Re: (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #305577]
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Mon, 04 June 2012 01:40
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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To be honest I am not sure about how that works, Mugsy - for example the Common Attachment Points grid is empty...
Could you explain that a bit more detailed? I am not that used to the xml editor...
The idea is that I have an item (an explosive) that until now took no attachments at all. This item should now be able to take any gun as an attachment. However, it may only take one gun at a time.
Edit: Ah, i get it mostly. Just how do I get to take a value for all guns? How do I enter this context menu?
Edit: Ah, found that too. WOW. This is cool. I'd would have taken hours to do this the old way... thank you!!!!!
Edit: Except.. It doesn't work ingame. Hmm. And now the editor complains about some 'uiIndex' that should be unique but isn't...
Edit: Even copying the whole GameDir copy into my game folder doesn't resolve that error. Even though the XMLEditor.exe is a new one. Emm..... now what?
Edit: I added this to the AttachmentPoint.xml:
and this to the item and its attachment (a gun) in Items.xml:
However, I can't attach neither of the items. What am I missing?
[Updated on: Mon, 04 June 2012 02:56] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #305593]
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Mon, 04 June 2012 21:08
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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That is exactly what I had before. However, it just doesn't work. I can neither attach the gun to the explosive, nor the explosive to the gun.
However, when I set a specific gun as an attachment of the explosive in Attachment.xml, it works, altough with the wierd behaviour you described, I can now attach laser sights :headbanger:
Do I have to activate something somewhere in order for this to work?
[Updated on: Mon, 04 June 2012 21:18] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: (New) Common Attachment Framework (new title; was The NAS Receiver)[message #305596]
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Mon, 04 June 2012 22:08
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Hmm. The attachment tag was missing, this did it..
Created a new attachmetn slot, this also works...
However, I still have the problem that i can attach attachments that the gun would have to my explosive... how do I solve that?
Edit: GAH! I can attach two guns to the same slot at the same time. Waht am I missing?
Edit: This is really odd... I attach my pistol to the explosive. Okay. Then I take another firearm and replace the attached on the item. Okay. But:
If I attach a Masterkey (which is also UNDERBARREL attachment) at the item, and then try to attach the pistol, they are both in the same slot. I can then take the pistol away, but not the Masterkey.
[Updated on: Mon, 04 June 2012 22:18] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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