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AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307191] Tue, 10 July 2012 22:04 Go to next message
smeagol

 
Messages:2733
Registered:June 2008
Location: Bremen, Germany
New thread for discussion about AIMNAS Bigmaps project.

Also... before opening any new threads in the subforum, make sure the question hasn't been answered yet, there is no similiar discussion thread around and the stuff doesn't belong into one of the following:

Mandatory read before posting here: Check out the FAQ.

Bugs should be posted in the Bug Thread.

Item Request should be posted in the Item Request Thread.

Questions about why there is no NCTH for AIMNAS, questions about bugs in bootlegged versions of AIMNAS, how to make Frankenstein versions of the mod and such things will not be answered and threads of that nature have a very high chance of being thrown in the trash can.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 March 2015 11:38]



Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307242] Wed, 11 July 2012 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kjou

 
Messages:18
Registered:July 2010
Location: hamburg, germany
any idea when we can play a fully flavored campaign with the aimnas bigmaps project?
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307243] Wed, 11 July 2012 19:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soto Banaris

 
Messages:129
Registered:May 2012
Location: Germany
kjou
any idea when we can play a fully flavored campaign with the aimnas bigmaps project?

As soon as the bigmaps are finished. Asking "Are we there yet?" all the time makes the driver... and Smeagol mad. So don't!
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307244] Wed, 11 July 2012 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:674
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
http://www.wowwiki.com/Soon#Soon-ish


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307245] Wed, 11 July 2012 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
when it's done! Razz
Wink
SCNR

@Smeag: Perhaps you should cover this question in the FAQ as well?

[Updated on: Wed, 11 July 2012 19:47] by Moderator

Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307246] Wed, 11 July 2012 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:674
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
With that Soon-ish link, I think that will be fitting on this topic


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307248] Wed, 11 July 2012 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colibr

 
Messages:48
Registered:June 2012
One thing I'm encountering as I play on the big maps is a huge energy drain. I go through several canteens per stealth mission, just because it takes so much walking around. I don't know the best way to handle this but a simple fix might be ensuring that canteens drop a lot more frequently from enemies. I think other changes have the potential to be difficult to do/unbalancing (e.g. if canteens were made more effective, it would be easier to shrug off being shot/stunned).

Oh, that and I just spent forty minutes hunting down the last three guys in a Drassen map, though I think that quibble's been aired.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307250] Wed, 11 July 2012 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Randok

 
Messages:299
Registered:March 2004
Quote:
Oh, that and I just spent forty minutes hunting down the last three guys in a Drassen map
Can do this easier. The whole sector is divided into 6 or 8 pieces. When is one (or two or three) enemy press any key and see which part (red area ) of the enemy (we do not see a particular position only area).To shorten the search time. Smile

[Updated on: Wed, 11 July 2012 21:52] by Moderator

Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307251] Wed, 11 July 2012 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3482
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Well, the easiest thing to do would be using an xray detector (thats what its for, isnt it?).

One could also code a function that activates the xray effects for all mercs if only one enemy is left. Although that would be cheating...


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307252] Wed, 11 July 2012 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Randok

 
Messages:299
Registered:March 2004
Xray detector shows a particular position.
I propose to show the area.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307253] Wed, 11 July 2012 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3482
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Colouring a subset of the sector on the map is MUCH more work than simply activating the xray effects.


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307254] Wed, 11 July 2012 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Actually ... hmmm ... I need to think about this.
EDIT:
What do you think an acceptable area to search would be to keep a balance between 'making it easier' and 'outright gabbi alt+e'? 30x30 tiles? 60x60? 90x90? (that's 1/144th, 1/36th and 1/16th of a map respectively)

[Updated on: Wed, 11 July 2012 22:47] by Moderator



Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307255] Wed, 11 July 2012 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colibr

 
Messages:48
Registered:June 2012
I think even 1/4 or 1/9 would be useful.

Yup, X-rays are doable. I haven't personally been able to build one in v27, given its present state. Could be the ticket in the final release, though I generally think of them as mid- to late-game item, so the early game would still have the frustration.

For me, at least, if the AI were encouraged to flee once they've been reduced to 1 man or 1/20th of their initial force size (or something like that), I'd be happiest. Wasn't the AI modded to be more likely to hole up in 1.13? I don't seem to remember it happening as frequently in vanilla.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307256] Wed, 11 July 2012 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
1/4 would still be bigger than a standard map, which was already borderline for finding the last Tango. Maybe 1/9 at day and 1/16 at night (due to shorter view ranges?). I found doing N'Ops on a big map to really suck when searching the last guys.
And enemies (esp. on Insane) are programmed to grow "big balls o' steel" when in hopeless situations, so yeah.


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307257] Thu, 12 July 2012 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colibr

 
Messages:48
Registered:June 2012
Yeah, I just thought that roughly the size of a regular map would be a good "useful but not cheating" baseline.

And yes, night ops are usually when it gets tedious. Clearing a dense urban sector knowing that there's a guy hiding around some corner or behind some door, just waiting for you to get close enough to blow you away is fun... It's just that during night ops you're likley to walk right by him by mistake. It's partly that tension I'd hate to lose by using a simple X-ray effect (without earning it) or drawing an indicator that's too accurate.

This would be partly ameliorated by a higher hearing range. To speed up clearing operations, I'll have some well armoured merc walk through the sector firing off a shotgun to try to draw guys in. It's rarely enough to get the last guy.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307259] Thu, 12 July 2012 01:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Just a little something I've been working on the last few days that'll await you in the future ...
https://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pGLxsMkjDWdlgamejusmR6cd_K5tQLKnIXXzkk18ISFtXsliND6JqlqPgooVl1U3ED3SALI4ozBph9A9aNLA8Qw/New_Overhead.png
Toggle Spoiler


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307262] Thu, 12 July 2012 07:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
I thought about a solution to this last holdout problem too, was going to try coding it but never have time to code anymore. My thoughts were along the same lines with splitting the map into 9 grid boxes and highlighting boxes with guys in it.

But 2 things bugged me about this solution; it can be abused and it breaks realism.

So I thought of a solution to fix that as well. My idea is shamelessly stollen from th CoD games. Basically you have a flyover by a spotter plane or drone. This will highlight on the map each of the sectors with an enemy in it. But it will have some downsides to prevent people from using it on a whim. A flyover should put any enemies in the sector not on alert to alert. Also each flyover should cost some amount (say $100) if the airspace is friendly and a higher amount (say $500) if the queen's Sam holds the airspace.

I was thinking of just adding an brief flashing red overlay over the grid sectors with enemies.

Dh
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307264] Thu, 12 July 2012 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dansken

 
Messages:87
Registered:March 2007
Location: Norway
Would it be possible to code the civilians to drop hints to the enemies whereabouts?

Talking to a civilian could give a response like "I saw some of Deidrannas men North East of here", or "I heard that there are still soldiers in the Eastern part of town".

I believe that would really help with immersion, but of course it wouldn't work in maps without civilians. Does all big maps have civilians?
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307266] Thu, 12 July 2012 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
And here we're at the point again where potential solutions for the last straggler always ended:
1) A realistic (in terms of chance to get implemented) solution is proposed
2) Everyone wants to add more bells and whistles to make it 'immersive' and whatnot ...

FYI: I'll implement the basic system outlined above, gridsquares being highlighted on the overhead map on the basis of enemy presence.
  • Setting for threshold
  • Setting for day resolution (thinking of various from 1/4 to at least 1/16, will see if higher ones make sense)
  • Setting for night resolution
  • Make it persistent or add a key to the overhead map
Feel free to improve it when it's done.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 July 2012 11:20] by Moderator



Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307267] Thu, 12 July 2012 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Randok

 
Messages:299
Registered:March 2004
In the 1024x768 resolution I propose:
- Sector is divided into 12 parts
- Two rows (six upper, six lower)
Increasing the amount of the night makes sense. Maybe the 16?
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307268] Thu, 12 July 2012 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Not sure yet if I'm gonna do it for the ridiculously small map you get on 1024 ... all that scrolling, blech.


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307270] Thu, 12 July 2012 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Randok

 
Messages:299
Registered:March 2004
I think that part was illuminated by a fixed proportion of the sector. Regardless of the resolution.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307271] Thu, 12 July 2012 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Well ... look at the screen above Wink


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307273] Thu, 12 July 2012 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
I dunno if this would be more complicated nor doable at all, but i want to suggest it however:

Could it be done dynamically that the sector is divided into parts that resemble the area you can see in main window? (gridsquare's size = size of green frame on minimap)
Would make it work regardless of resolution and maybe spare the implementation of various sizes at daylight.
(at night time, perhaps just flat half the size?)

Suggestion is not intended to be "bells and whistles" but hopefully to help being "realistic" (tho i am unable to judge if infact easy/easier to code).
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307275] Thu, 12 July 2012 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Huh? What do you mean? That sounds like just another size to me.


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307279] Thu, 12 July 2012 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soto Banaris

 
Messages:129
Registered:May 2012
Location: Germany
Dansken
Would it be possible to code the civilians to drop hints to the enemies whereabouts?

Talking to a civilian could give a response like "I saw some of Deidrannas men North East of here", or "I heard that there are still soldiers in the Eastern part of town".

I believe that would really help with immersion, but of course it wouldn't work in maps without civilians. Does all big maps have civilians?


I think most of them are too afraid to do that and won't risk of being shot once the mercs/militiamen are defeated/retreated. You have to think their way: They've been abused and intimidated for decades now and are too afraid to let a hint in that direction go. They'll cower like mice getting out of harms way.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307280] Thu, 12 July 2012 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
The sector would not be divided by a predifined fixed number (e.g. 16) but acording to resolution in use.
Like if in the tactical "window" shows you 1/20 of the whole map size, then the size of your highlited gridsquares will also be sized 1/20.

I imagined that the size of the green frame in the minimap that shows you which part of the map is displayed in the main screen could be used to automatically determine the size of the area to be highlited; Gridsize = size of main window.

But this would mean that the higher your chosen resolution the bigger the highlighted area (containing the last enemy).
So maybe not a very good idea after all ... :/
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307281] Thu, 12 July 2012 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
No, not really. Besides, it's half a dozen lines to determine where to draw that rectangle for a set of 7 resolutions (squares 30, 45, 60, 90, 120 and 180 tiles across)

EDIT:
That's what it looks like:
https://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pBIlIinW83QhCEGcYbm_jYBfinCK9VwKcLtWa1Vi1HX3Nnp-UX0POiM_jxxqpLPnS-lbRAZoPfvA_U1V4BeD9Ww/Area_Marker_1.png
This shows the second highest precision, a square of 45 tiles.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 July 2012 22:30] by Moderator



Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307327] Fri, 13 July 2012 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
Even though nobody seems to like my ideals (probobly because I don't have the time to do the work myself), I think I or somebody needs to take another look at making bigmaps and little maps play nice together.

It seems like all the complaints (and to be clear, I am not complaining and this is not a complaint post) center around folks wanting to be able to finish the game. I am sick of the complaints, and it seems smeagol is as well. So I figure the best way to make them stop is to make what they are complaining about a non issue so they have to take a few days to come up with something else to complain about.

So, I have been thinking about it for a bit, and tried skimming the bigmaps thread to see if this was discussed in detail there and didn't find anything.

I get that there is an issue with the map edges lining up. But that seems like it should be pretty easy to fix with a algorithm to approximate how the edges should line up.

Somehow I doubt this is the only issue though, so what are the other issues?

I know almost nothing about the map editor and/or maps and how it works, is there a problem with the tilesets mathching? Or some other obscure issue?

Any thoughts?

Dh
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307329] Fri, 13 July 2012 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Edge alignment? That shouldn't be an issue. The problem is that smeag heavily altered and optimized his tilesets for the new maps which leads to really strange problems if you use the old ones with it. Stuff like corn fields consisting entirely of cloths lines or high grass being substituted by washing machines.
EDIT: And you'll probably find some bullshit items on the maps, I'm not sure to what extend but there should be some.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 July 2012 15:18] by Moderator



Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307336] Fri, 13 July 2012 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
It looks very suitable to me, so I'd say go for it.
If you asked me, i'd prefer the option of adding a key to the overhead map for this function. It would allow the player to decide if he wants to use it right now or not.

@DH:
I do like the ideas of adding more game inversion like to order a an fly over or talk to inhabitants or the like. But i also favor the "invent the basic function and debug it, have it work flawlessly - and add the spice to it after that, when and if you - or somebody else working on the already functioning feature - have the time,spirits and ability to improve it"-concept. Smile
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307342] Fri, 13 July 2012 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
@DepressivesBrot

Ok, next question then. Is it feasible to write a script or some other tool, or edit the map editor to change all of one tile type to another? I mean this wouldn
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307346] Fri, 13 July 2012 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
I'm not sure about the wanting part, you'd have to ask him ...
Also, I don't think you really understand how tilesets work, for there's no such thing as "some of those tiles are supposed to be clothes lines and some aren't".


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307349] Fri, 13 July 2012 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smeagol

 
Messages:2733
Registered:June 2008
Location: Bremen, Germany
I guess I'm one of the few people at the forum atm that know how to work with tilesets, so let me tell you this:

It is basically possible to have small and bigmaps in one package.


Hooray... there... I said it...



.
.
.
.
.


However, it would take approximately 2 full weeks to get it done as most of those people around that cry for it, would like it to be. And those are two weeks worth of work time spent by someone who knows how the stuff works. Someone who has no idea how it is done could easily spent around 4 or even more weeks.


Understanding the tileset structure is not THAT easy. Granted, it isn't THAT difficult either, but it took me a while to figure it out, and I'm still not too sure about some parts.

If I were to go back before I started bigmaps, with the knowledge I have now and with all the progress that has been done in the meantime, I probably would have gone a different direction. However, at the time I started the project, I did not have that knowledge.

Some features that are available, or rather are rumoured to be available (like that super tileset some of the Polish guys worked on/have done) were not made public. Waiting for this feature to get done and made public turned out to be futile.

At the time I started working on bigmaps I could obviously not forsee how much work it would actually be. I worked on all the WF6.06 maps, made a couple of them from scratch, without any knowledge about tilesets what so ever. All the stuff I learned in the meantime is 90% self taught (with a few tips from a few people here and there).


Sure, with the knowledge I have today and all the progress made in regards to bigmaps (which, it turns out has come to quite some extend from the trial and error and transparent release approach I made), I "could" make a hybrid of small and bigmaps. But I tell you one thing:

I won't.


Why, you may ask would I do such a selfish thing? That#s easily explained. Because I want the mod to evolve. Incorporating the smaller maps, so that a handful of people could keep on consuming? Why would I do that? I make the mod as a hobby. I don't earn any money with it. And thus I spent the time as i want to.


Maybe the train of thought of consumerism needs to be changed a bit...


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307351] Fri, 13 July 2012 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
I freely admit I know almost nill about tilesets in Ja2, I have tried messing with the map editor a few times only to succeed in frustrating myself and wasting time. Making maps is clearly not my thing, and I am not sure I have the fortitude to subject myself to the torture of trying to learn it. Plus there is no need since you (smeagol) are a master at it and are around and active for much longer than I think anyone thought you would be in the beginning. You do a great job and I love the map work and item work you do.

I am not sure we are on the same page though as far as what I am asking. I am not asking for small maps and big maps in the same package as in select before playing if you want small or big maps. I am wondering if big and small maps could be done in the same game. The small maps would essentially be playable placeholders until a big map is made to replace them at which point they would go away. The biggest benefit to doing this I think is it would allow you to jump straight to doing the maps that benefit most from being big, like all the cities and such, without having to worry about making bigmaps for all the really inconsequential (and I would imagine less fun to make) sectors between the cities until after the cities are done. I think it is also the cities in bigmaps that are going to bring the most people around to liking bigmaps.

I would like to see big maps succeed as well, and the next time I get a chance to play plan on asking to be in your closed beta (won
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307352] Fri, 13 July 2012 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JMich

 
Messages:560
Registered:January 2011
Location: Greece
The map file contains (among lots of other stuff) the following
Gridno ###, Tileset XX, Tileset Item YY.
Having modified the tilesets, the item that in vanilla tilesets represents a table (for example), in AIMNAS tileset is a tree (again, example).
So, you have to either find what the correct index in the new tilesets, and do a replace (good luck finding what you need to replace with what), or you have to manually replace all such items.
So, if you think there is a chance you can do that, feel free.
Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307354] Fri, 13 July 2012 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
dinglehopper
the only one I am not sure about is determining who owns the airspace, but there needs to be a function for this if there isn’t already.

There must be something like that already because Skyrider charges different prices when flying in hostile air space. So somehow the game must know if the air above a given sector is red or green.
Dunno how this is currently implemented nor where to find it, tho.

About tileset:
I'd think one would not have to work in the tileset if one would be able to tell the game
IF sector is BIGMAP use Tileset from AIMNAS
ELSE use tileset from normal

But i have no idea if and how that would be possible. Sad

[Updated on: Fri, 13 July 2012 23:49] by Moderator

Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307355] Fri, 13 July 2012 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Sam_Hotte
So somehow the game must know if the air above a given sector is red or green.
Even better, the game must know if a sector is hostile in order to paint it red or green. Very Happy

Sam_Hotte
About tileset:
I'd think one would not have to work in the tileset if one would be able to tell the game
IF sector is BIGMAP use Tileset from AIMNAS
ELSE use tileset from normal

But i have no idea if and how that would be possible. Sad
It should be possible, but it would basically mean working with both tilesets simultaneously in the code ... gives me a headache thinking about it.


Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307358] Sat, 14 July 2012 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smeagol

 
Messages:2733
Registered:June 2008
Location: Bremen, Germany
There is no clean solution that doesn't require a ton of work.

The way to do it is very complicated and tedious... Basically you would need the tilesets used for the wf maps, then the tileset that were modified for bigmaps, resort them, rename a bunch of files, and after that re-adjust the tilesets for every single map. when changing tilesets you will also have to replace every set enemy and civilian, because the editor deletes everyone when a tileset sgets changed.

Let alone the logistic nightmare of making it possible to switch maps to a different tileset for bigmaps, as you basically would have to do it simultaneously, as bigmaps use heavily modded tilese you cats, that contain way more objects than tilesets for small maps. Thus you can't change the tilesets all at the same time, but would have to do it one by one for each map/tileset.

And there's probably even more issues I can't think of right now...



Re: AIMNAS WF2012 Part 11[message #307361] Sat, 14 July 2012 02:26 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Colibr

 
Messages:48
Registered:June 2012
Hey, a random question that might be better answered by Sandro: playing with IIS, it looks like one of my mercs wearing a radio headset just got an interrupt with the militia (you know how IIS lets mercs interrupt for the team? I think that happened). Is that a feature? Am I mistaken? If it's not a feature, is that something that would be possible to do?

I'm going to play around with it more to try to answer the first question, but it makes/would make radio headsets much more useful in my estimation...

Anyway, still enjoying the hell out of the mod. Playing on a harder setting, forcing me to use a pretty wide variety of weapons as I repulse 100+ enemies daily from the Drassen Mine sector. It's also giving me a great feel for the grenades included in the mod. Fragmentation is brilliant, so thanks to smeagol or whoever is responsible for that one.
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