Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » Flugente's Magika Workshop » New feature: advanced repair/dirt system
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #337757]
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Sun, 16 November 2014 01:14
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llib |
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Messages:9
Registered:January 2012 |
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EDIT: After going through history, I see much of this is already addressed... never mind.
Toggle SpoilerI would suggest some changes in advanced repair system, in particular, to make player somehow able to repair items on his own. One idea would be, to repair up to % matching the mechanical skill. Other idea would be somehow making it related to technician trait. Yet another idea would be to make some heavy item, or to make facility in some sectors that will allow such repairs (and maybe make it a new occupation different from repair, so that this is managed separately).
Reasoning:
In previous releases, I would use repair shops in Cambria early-mid game (Perko). Particular use would be to buy damaged stuff (armor mainly) in local shop, give it to Perko while my mercs would focus on repairing normal stuff with minor damage: early on there isn't that many mercs (but also not money to spend excessively around on) so it's welcome bonus to give it to NPC while your mercs are mainly occupied doing other things.
However, restricting the repairs so completely as this does to very few places(which places actually allow this, I think Perko won't touch weapons anyway, no?) that allow something like this, is I think too tough, and not very realistic - and amount of added micromanagement does not justify for additional realism it may bring.
There is something I'm also wondering about - how does this dust and damage system affect AI (army and militia)?
Does damage/jamming apply to them, and does dust apply to them, and how does it accumulate for soldiers in other sectors, and if it does apply, is AI able to deal with it (will I find cleaning kit with elite troops corpses most of time, and what about militia (especially with mod that enables/requires giving it equipment), please?
[Updated on: Sun, 16 November 2014 01:42] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #340861 is a reply to message #340858]
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Mon, 04 May 2015 01:58
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Deleted. |
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Messages:2657
Registered:December 2012 Location: Russian Federation |
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Flugente
Quote:100% is not displayed
Can confirm this, I can say it's a bit confusing for the player as he cannot see the max repair level and thinks maybe it's a bug.
Quote:can you repair these things?
Yes they can be repaired to 100%, so this issue is solved now, thanks.
One problem that is still here is that sometimes guns can be found/dropped with actual status much higher than max displayed status (like 75%/0%), and they act like they are ok.
Is it posssible to add some check/fix to the code for such situations?
This happens in wildfire maps, for example in C3 with weapon cache you can find SKS with 86%/0% status in a closed guarded building.
It cannot be repaired by mercs with default settings, but if I set MERCS_CAN_DO_ADVANCED_REPAIRS = TRUE, tech merc can repair it to 100%.
So the problem is with some preplaced items (not sure about dropped items that were given to enemy in editor) which have 0% max status and the game doesn't check that actual status much higher than max, also those items work (shoot) as if they were ok which looks strange.
[Updated on: Mon, 04 May 2015 01:59]
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #347846 is a reply to message #347375]
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Wed, 28 December 2016 01:22
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Vincent J. Claymore |
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Messages:285
Registered:February 2011 |
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Since you asked for feedback, silversurfer, here's my two cente:
First of all: I like your changes and they do make sense, so no problem there generally.
I feel weapon's condition degrades too fast. I don't like playing with militias, so what I usually do is leave a single merc in every sector I need to keep (mostly towns and sectors with a lot of loot), but him in sone room without a window and ambush all the attackers when they come through the door. Gamey, I know, but I don't see an alternative, since I simply don't like militias. Long story short: I was defending Tixa with Shank and he went through two rifles (Mini-14 and M4, I think), each starting out with 85+ condition. With the Mini-14 he couldn't even get through half a mag before it jammed so badly he had to drop it. I know it's a desert sector, but he never left the armory next to the bathrooms...
Also, some questions regarding the new repair system: Does this mean that you need MEC to clean guns now? Gun-cleaning skills drilled into recruits are a far cry from actual engineering skills, so I would really object to a situation where low-MEC soldiers take hours cleaning there guns.
What do you consider the "default" setting in your new system? If set to only allow Perko and Arnie to actually repair weapons, doesn't that completely invalidate all the engineers?
Biggest problem: Guns jamming can very quickly lead to the gun being ruined (dropping to 1%) - does this affect the dirt status only or does this reduce the threshold to 1% as well? The latter would be terrible, because this would mean a rifle in pristine condition could very well be utterly destroyed in single Tixa defence.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #347857 is a reply to message #347846]
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Wed, 28 December 2016 12:43
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silversurfer |
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Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009 |
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Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22Since you asked for feedback, silversurfer, here's my two cente:
First of all: I like your changes and they do make sense, so no problem there generally.
That's good to hear. I haven't had time to play the game lately so I couldn't really try the new system myself.
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
I feel weapon's condition degrades too fast. I don't like playing with militias, so what I usually do is leave a single merc in every sector I need to keep (mostly towns and sectors with a lot of loot), but him in sone room without a window and ambush all the attackers when they come through the door. Gamey, I know, but I don't see an alternative, since I simply don't like militias. Long story short: I was defending Tixa with Shank and he went through two rifles (Mini-14 and M4, I think), each starting out with 85+ condition. With the Mini-14 he couldn't even get through half a mag before it jammed so badly he had to drop it. I know it's a desert sector, but he never left the armory next to the bathrooms...
How many bullets did you fire? I tested with several weapons including a MP5K and MG36 in semi-auto and auto fire where I fired at least 10 full clips without the gun building up too much dirt. I experienced a few jams which should be normal if you empty multiple mags in a row in a "clean" sector. I got the MG36 to overheat which increased gun jams but that is an intended feature of the overheating system. I have to admit that I didn't test in a desert sector but your feedback gave me an idea. Building interiors should usually be cleaner than outside so I might just halve the dirt penalty inside buildings.
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
Also, some questions regarding the new repair system: Does this mean that you need MEC to clean guns now? Gun-cleaning skills drilled into recruits are a far cry from actual engineering skills, so I would really object to a situation where low-MEC soldiers take hours cleaning there guns.
The game uses the same formula for cleaning that it used for repairing the status in the past which includes the Mechanic attribute. I didn't change that but you have a good point. Gun cleaning isn't rocket science so I guess I will modify the formula so that MEC plays a lower role and DEX is the main factor plus a little EXP. With that change mechanics will still get a bonus.
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
What do you consider the "default" setting in your new system? If set to only allow Perko and Arnie to actually repair weapons, doesn't that completely invalidate all the engineers?
MY default setting is MERCS_CAN_DO_ADVANCED_REPAIRS = TRUE. This isn't what the standard 1.13 GameDir is set to at the moment but players can easily change that. It's only required to repair actual item damage (repair threshold) so you can still run around with a 95/95 gun which will work fine or you change the option or bring your guns to one of the NPCs.
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
Biggest problem: Guns jamming can very quickly lead to the gun being ruined (dropping to 1%) - does this affect the dirt status only or does this reduce the threshold to 1% as well? The latter would be terrible, because this would mean a rifle in pristine condition could very well be utterly destroyed in single Tixa defence.
Every time a gun jams it might take some amount of damage (0-5 points) so if you keep firing a low condition overheated gun you have a good chance to break it. Chance for damage is minimal if your gun happens to jam while it's still in good condition but if you keep pushing the status downwards it will eventually take damage. If you stress a gun hard from 100/100 you might end up with a 50/85 status for example. That's what's intended and I don't plan to change it. The system is not designed to allow sector defense with a single merc against an army. If you plan to do that you better provide multiple weapons he can use and clean afterwards.
Btw. keep in mind that semi-auto fire has a lower chance for gun jams than auto fire.
Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MODReport message to a moderator
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #347866 is a reply to message #347857]
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Wed, 28 December 2016 22:54
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Vincent J. Claymore |
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Messages:285
Registered:February 2011 |
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silversurfer wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 12:43
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
I feel weapon's condition degrades too fast. I don't like playing with militias, so what I usually do is leave a single merc in every sector I need to keep (mostly towns and sectors with a lot of loot), but him in sone room without a window and ambush all the attackers when they come through the door. Gamey, I know, but I don't see an alternative, since I simply don't like militias. Long story short: I was defending Tixa with Shank and he went through two rifles (Mini-14 and M4, I think), each starting out with 85+ condition. With the Mini-14 he couldn't even get through half a mag before it jammed so badly he had to drop it. I know it's a desert sector, but he never left the armory next to the bathrooms...
How many bullets did you fire? I tested with several weapons including a MP5K and MG36 in semi-auto and auto fire where I fired at least 10 full clips without the gun building up too much dirt. I experienced a few jams which should be normal if you empty multiple mags in a row in a "clean" sector. I got the MG36 to overheat which increased gun jams but that is an intended feature of the overheating system. I have to admit that I didn't test in a desert sector but your feedback gave me an idea. Building interiors should usually be cleaner than outside so I might just halve the dirt penalty inside buildings.
In the case of the Mini-14 it was half a magazine (<15) that caused constant jamming. Mind you, this gun doesn't even have full-auto or burst fire. I thought it was linked to Shank's poor skills, but now I now it was due to the sector being classed as desert. If you can indeed code the interiours of builidings to behave differently, that would be a really elegant solution to the problem. Alternatively, could Tixa be changed from Deseert to Urban?
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 12:43
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
Also, some questions regarding the new repair system: Does this mean that you need MEC to clean guns now? Gun-cleaning skills drilled into recruits are a far cry from actual engineering skills, so I would really object to a situation where low-MEC soldiers take hours cleaning there guns.
The game uses the same formula for cleaning that it used for repairing the status in the past which includes the Mechanic attribute. I didn't change that but you have a good point. Gun cleaning isn't rocket science so I guess I will modify the formula so that MEC plays a lower role and DEX is the main factor plus a little EXP. With that change mechanics will still get a bonus.
I had a similar idea after having posted this yesterday and considering how DEX is currently inconsistently distributed among mercs, I feel the best and most realistic option would be to link cleaning speed to EXP, following the logic that the more of a "soldier" you are, the better you are at maintaining your gear (just like Major Pain, doing it blindfolded and hanging upside down^^).
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 12:43
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
What do you consider the "default" setting in your new system? If set to only allow Perko and Arnie to actually repair weapons, doesn't that completely invalidate all the engineers?
MY default setting is MERCS_CAN_DO_ADVANCED_REPAIRS = TRUE. This isn't what the standard 1.13 GameDir is set to at the moment but players can easily change that. It's only required to repair actual item damage (repair threshold) so you can still run around with a 95/95 gun which will work fine or you change the option or bring your guns to one of the NPCs.
This is what I figured and what I am going to do, simply because of the limitation of smiths in Arulco and the massive drain on your logistics of ferrying around rifles through the country just to have them repaired. It does, however, completely undermine Flugente's original intention behind the advanced repair system, doesn't it? I think the better (and best, imho) solution would be a small addition to the current skill system, seperating lockpicking skills from proper engineering skills and fortification skills. As things stand currently, the "real" reason Perko and Arnie remain unused is because the game gives you too many cheap/free Engineers to start with. Maddog could very well be downgraded to Technician (as he arguable mentions his repair skills in dialogue), but the second skill choice could be something more combat-y. Dynamo on the other hand only talks about being good at "jimmying" doors, so he could really have the new "Lockpick" skill rather than engineer. How about this:
Skill 1: Mechanic / Gunsmith (bonus on repairing equipment, only Gunsmith allows repairing the threshold)
Skill 2: Burglar / Locksmith (bonus on lockpicking)
Skill 3: Technician / Engineer (bonus on fortification, vehicle repair and robot controlling)
By reducing the amount of readily available gunsmiths Perko and Arnie become more valid option. I would like to second the request for more shopkeepers, by the way, as especially in third world countries, tinkering and repairing of stuff we would simply through out and replace is quite an important part of local economy. Plus small mom and pop shops are more abundant in a poor economy than in a wealthy one.
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 12:43
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 00:22
Biggest problem: Guns jamming can very quickly lead to the gun being ruined (dropping to 1%) - does this affect the dirt status only or does this reduce the threshold to 1% as well? The latter would be terrible, because this would mean a rifle in pristine condition could very well be utterly destroyed in single Tixa defence.
Every time a gun jams it might take some amount of damage (0-5 points) so if you keep firing a low condition overheated gun you have a good chance to break it. Chance for damage is minimal if your gun happens to jam while it's still in good condition but if you keep pushing the status downwards it will eventually take damage. If you stress a gun hard from 100/100 you might end up with a 50/85 status for example. That's what's intended and I don't plan to change it. The system is not designed to allow sector defense with a single merc against an army. If you plan to do that you better provide multiple weapons he can use and clean afterwards.
Btw. keep in mind that semi-auto fire has a lower chance for gun jams than auto fire.
I wasn't talking about one-man defence against an army, but rather against attack squads of 12 or so enemies. Regardless of the number of enemies, a rifle in acceptable condition should be able to fire more than 20 or so bullets (in single fire!!!) before it is utterly destroyed just from jamming due to dirt.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #347892 is a reply to message #347866]
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Fri, 30 December 2016 02:06
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silversurfer |
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Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009 |
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Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 21:54In the case of the Mini-14 it was half a magazine (<15) that caused constant jamming. Mind you, this gun doesn't even have full-auto or burst fire. I thought it was linked to Shank's poor skills, but now I now it was due to the sector being classed as desert. If you can indeed code the interiours of builidings to behave differently, that would be a really elegant solution to the problem. Alternatively, could Tixa be changed from Deseert to Urban?
I tested the Mini-14 in Tixa. The first jam happened on the 6th clip at 77/97 status and high gun temperature. That's 170 bullets down the range. For a desert sector this isn't bad. Status after 10 clips was 49/86. I might up the threshold for gun damage a bit so it takes more dirt before a gun will take damage but I wouldn't want to change dirt accumulation. If anything I could make it dependent on shooters stance so it takes less dirt when standing and most when prone.
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Wed, 28 December 2016 21:54
This is what I figured and what I am going to do, simply because of the limitation of smiths in Arulco and the massive drain on your logistics of ferrying around rifles through the country just to have them repaired. It does, however, completely undermine Flugente's original intention behind the advanced repair system, doesn't it? I think the better (and best, imho) solution would be a small addition to the current skill system, seperating lockpicking skills from proper engineering skills and fortification skills. As things stand currently, the "real" reason Perko and Arnie remain unused is because the game gives you too many cheap/free Engineers to start with.
Using the advanced repair system is a players choice just as using the tech trait for repairing the thresholds. There is nothing wrong with that. In vanilla there wasn't even something like repair thresholds. Anybody could repair any item to 100%. I like the advanced repair system but I also feel that my engineer should be able to do the same as Perko, the engineer, so I always enable MERCS_CAN_DO_ADVANCED_REPAIRS. I think that is just in line with Flugente's original intention.
Anyway, a trait system overhaul is out of scope so either engineers can repair the threshold (if the option is on) or not no matter what type of item it is.
Vincent J. Claymore wrote on Thu, 29 December 2016 22:39Just one other thing that came to my mind... does it really make sense, that you can never fully "clean" a gun just because it is damaged? What I am trying to say is that if a gun in perfect condition starts acting up when it gets 15-20% dirty - why would a smaller amount of dirt cause the same amount of trouble for a gun in a slightly damaged condition? If the first condition of the gun is really the cleanliness of the gun, shouldn't that always go up to 100% after a full clean?
If a gun is already damaged it is more likely to jam anyway so it will jam even with less dirt. That's why both values add up now to 100%. On a totally broken gun you don't have to worry about dirt anymore. ;)
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #347907 is a reply to message #347892]
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Fri, 30 December 2016 20:10
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Vincent J. Claymore |
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Messages:285
Registered:February 2011 |
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Okay, I am okay with the system as it is currently. Basically what I don't like is that freshly looted guns are now more or less useless. If I defeat a group of enemies and give best of the looted rifles (drop all being activated, of course) to a merc (usually at 80+/90+), I am almost guaranteed jams before emptying the first magazine. Happened to Shank with two seperate guns, happened to Razor, happened to Hurl, I am paying attention to this now and I just find it a bit odd that the Arulcan army doesn't seem to stock a single weapon that would realistically survive even a medium sized confrontation.
I guess the way to adress this is to clean/repair every gun before using it, but that doesn't explain why every single one of Deidranna's soldiers seems to run around with a filthy. damaged gun to start with.
As regards Flugente's intentions behind advanced repair, obviously I cannot speak for him as he can do that himself, but the way I understood it was that his main motivation was to force players to use Perko and Arnie. With your changes, this motivation is undone, because it no longer makes any sense not to activate "MERCS_CAN_DO_ADVANCED_REPAIRS". You only have two options now: Either you make your Engineers (two of which you get for free!) more or less useless, because "cleaning" is easy enough for every merc to do himself and should be, as it needs to be done all the time, and actual repair can only be done by Perko and Arnie OR you revert to the state where no-one will ever use Perko. Please don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with that and I will keep playing with mercs being able to do advanced repairs. especially since advanced repairs are now "standard" repairs, but this is how I have interpreted Flugente's posts.
Btw, do your changes in any way affect armour and other gear that is not usually cleaned?
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Master Sergeant
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #347917 is a reply to message #347915]
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Sat, 31 December 2016 01:10
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edmortimer |
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Messages:1533
Registered:January 2015 Location: Home Free |
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Quote:Okay, I am okay with the system as it is currently. Basically what I don't like is that freshly looted guns are now more or less useless. If I defeat a group of enemies and give best of the looted rifles (drop all being activated, of course) to a merc (usually at 80+/90+), I am almost guaranteed jams before emptying the first magazine. Happened to Shank with two seperate guns, happened to Razor, happened to Hurl, I am paying attention to this now and I just find it a bit odd that the Arulcan army doesn't seem to stock a single weapon that would realistically survive even a medium sized confrontation.
I guess the way to adress this is to clean/repair every gun before using it, but that doesn't explain why every single one of Deidranna's soldiers seems to run around with a filthy. damaged gun to start with.
That problem is as old as the game -- in the Map Editor, for my mod, I have set every soldier's gear to "GREAT" - the highest quality setting. The result: dropped items range from 80% to 100%, Somewhere in the code the range for "GREAT", "GOOD", etc is defined, and if we bump it up a bit so "GREAT" is 90-100, "GOOD" is 80-90, "FAIR" is 70-80, "POOR" is 60-70, and "BAD" is 1-50 I think that will solve issue of the Arulcan Army's severely substandard equipment.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2016 01:11] Report message to a moderator
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Re: New feature: advanced repair/dirt system[message #350311 is a reply to message #349926]
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Mon, 10 July 2017 18:57
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Bananarepublic |
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Messages:39
Registered:October 2013 |
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Hello, i agree with the dirt system change.
However, after having not played in a while and starting a new playthrough i noticed the dirt removal and didn't know cleaning kits still had a use. So all this time i have been using toolkits to repair stuff suboptimally when i could have ordered a $20 item to increase the speed :/. How about we keep the system as it is but remove the need for cleaning kits? Or just add the cleaning kit function to the toolkits as default?
It's not clear in-game if the cleaning kits still have a use. (yes i now know they do)
[Updated on: Mon, 10 July 2017 19:01] Report message to a moderator
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