Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » Flugente's Magika Workshop » New feature: Covert operations
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #344580 is a reply to message #344579] Thu, 17 March 2016 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
1. Sounds reasonable, flashsights could easily be exploited.
2. Hmm. I guess I'll add radio-ing to the list of actions that briefly make you easily uncoverable. I thought it already was, but apparently not.
3. That seems to situational. While I get your intention (it is a good idea), one could kill an enemy, then move to another part of the map and stay there for x minutes without doing anything. There would be no reason to uncover the spy then. I'm not sure how the situation you describe can easily be 'caught' without causing false positives.
4. I know the boolean state is restricting, but a counter won't work. Or better said, it will work, but will render the feature unpredictable and frustrating.
The reason is that the 'covert check' is run in many different locations, at different times during the code. Updating the check only at fixed times would render a loophole. In order not to allow the player to exploit 'check-free times', we pretty mucht try to check every time we reevaluate whether someone might be an enemy.
A downside of this is that these checks are then called by numerous occasions. For example, if a merc exits a vehicle, every person in the sector reevaluates their sight of everybody else (which is reasonable - we have to make sure everybody who can sees the merc instantly). As a result, if a covert merc is seen by an enemy, the check will run again. So if we have a 'suspicion level', it will now rise - just because someone else on the other end of the map did sth unrelated to our spy or the enemies nearby.
I hope it's somewhat clear what I mean.

Come to think about it - I guess your idea might be possible if we create an array of 'suspicion level' for each soldier regarding every other soldier. Each turn (or fixed time period) this gets nulled (or lowered by a defined amount) again. Each check would have to return a suspicion level, and for each soldier the results are stored in that array. Subsequent checks ar written in there (possible using a max(...) calculation with the previous value). At the end of each check, create the 'suspicion level sum' for the covert person in question regarding all enemies. If the sum or max or whatever of the levels is high enough, uncover the spy.

Hmm. Have to thnk about this (you do that too, in case I missed something happy ).



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #344582 is a reply to message #344580] Thu, 17 March 2016 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1532
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
I understand that it's a lot of code work, so it's not a request but maybe some ideas of how this could be improved in the future.

I was thinking about changing the suspicious level every time when the APs are spent (and maybe also when soldier counters are updated in case we just stand still in realtime in enemy's sight), and uncover spy only if new suspicious level is higher than max possible.

Since AI's are communicating with their friends, we can have a suspicious counter for each covert soldier, and every time he makes some bad actions (spends APs), we change his counter, if he stays somewhere in cover and noone sees him, his counter is lowered, so it's something similar to IIS system where we know the "interrupt type" when we deduct APs and this may trigger interrupt, and I think APs are spent in realtime also.

So if we show this counter as for example a color of soldier's name (similar to sight cover now) or a bar above the soldier, this will make a feature more visually user-friendly - if the bar becomes orange/red - move out of here quickly, if it's green and not increasing - we can stay here and do what we were doing.

EDIT: about 2 - using covert spies in the battle means you don't need scouts anymore - no crawling in the shadows in full camo or spotting with binocs, just walk here and there and spot enemy. This is both unbalancing and unrealistic.
So for balance reasons I think any spies should be restricted to appear in enemy sight as soon as the battle starts, maybe this could be better implemented with discussed suspicious counters than current binary logic.

[Updated on: Thu, 17 March 2016 15:03]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r688) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube
Point out what it is you are interested in.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #345463 is a reply to message #344582] Fri, 13 May 2016 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
sevenfm made a very good code addition to this trait, which is now a new option:

As of r8210 & GameDir r2318, if the new skill setting COVERT_STRIPIFUNCOVERED is FALSE (which is now the default setting),
- we can only disguise successfully if we haven't been seen recently (last 3 turns)
- disabled automatic clothes stripping when uncovered
- redisguise automatically if spy haven't been seen by enemy recently and wears correct clothes

As a result, you no longer have to worry about stripped uniforms fitting in your inventory, and will be automatically be re-disguised after 3 turns out of the enemies sight. But until that point in time, you cannot regain the covert property, even if you manually apply another uniform. This seems a bit more realistic than the current system. The redisguise check is performed at the start of every turn.

Juicily enough, the check on whether any enemy has seen you in the last 3 turns only refers to alive enemies at that time. So if you are uncovered, you can drastically lower the time until automatic redisguise by quickly murdering any witnesses (technically, collapsing or coma-ing them suffices).

Set COVERT_STRIPIFUNCOVERED to TRUE and the old method, without any redisguising, will be used.

For more info on this change (and quiet a few other juicy bits, including for this very trait), check this out.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #345474 is a reply to message #345463] Fri, 13 May 2016 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1532
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
I found that with automatic disguise enabled, it's not easy to take off clothes, because you have to quickly select "loose disguise/strip" option in messagebox twice or it will turn disguse on again, so it should probably call pSoldier->Strip() twice in Handle Items.cpp/TacticalFunctionSelectionMessageBoxCallBack if the option is turned on so it will loose disguise and then strip immediately.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:14]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r688) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube
Point out what it is you are interested in.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #345475 is a reply to message #345474] Fri, 13 May 2016 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Yeah, but then one loses the ability to have a person wear new clothes but not have the disguise property. While merely visual, I found that useful. In my 64 mercs game I started dressing mercs according to squad and their role (pants indicate squad, vest indicates role, so for example, if Scope wears a red vest with black pants, this indicates that she's a sniper in Black squad). I'd rather keep that (without everybody always having the disguised symbol and (un-)disguising all the time. I think this might be solvable with an extra flag and perhaps a new button on the menu.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #345484 is a reply to message #345475] Fri, 13 May 2016 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
As of r8211, if a merc intentionally removes the diguise property via the [Ctrl] + [.] menu, the disguise property will not be reapplied until new clothes are applied, even if COVERT_STRIPIFUNCOVERED is set to FALSE in Skills_Settings.ini. This allows dressing up mercs in other colours without them being subject to covert mechanics.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #345546 is a reply to message #345484] Mon, 16 May 2016 13:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
As of r8215, if we disguise someone (by telling them to put on clothes), we immediately test their disguise (any reasonable player using spies would do this afterwards anyway, so this simply saves time).



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #345869 is a reply to message #345546] Mon, 06 June 2016 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1532
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
What if spy has damaged vest but did not lose his disguise? (maybe he was hit by unaimed shot or he shot himself).
It seems that SeemsLegit doesn't check for that. Maybe add something like this to SeemsLegit:
if ( this->usSoldierFlagMask & (SOLDIER_DAMAGED_VEST | SOLDIER_DAMAGED_PANTS) )
{
	return FALSE;
}



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r688) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube
Point out what it is you are interested in.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #347421 is a reply to message #345869] Sun, 30 October 2016 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sniki Hor

 
Messages:12
Registered:August 2006
Location: Croatia
If i understand it right if my civilian spy(or 1 point covert op) is 5 tiles from fresh corpse and seen by enemy then he looses disquise.
Does one enemy needs to see both the corpse and spy or corpse can be behind corner and loose_disquise is triggered?
If both corpse and spy needs to be seen, does it need to be seen by same enemy or one can see only corpse and other can see spy and loose_disquise is triggered?

Also I would like to know is there option where I can change/adjust distance (if possible 500 tiles just in case if bigger maps than bigmaps come out)? Because right now I can kill someone silently, move few tiles away and (if not spotted) leave the trail of corpses behind me without enemy caring much about it.
With increased (adjustable) distance I think it would be more realistic like, if I want to silently kill someone I would either have to plan ahead on how to hide corpse, kill in some hidden area where no one goes, move far far away from corpse/s (if I don't hide them).. or not just stand next to enemy group as spotter and people just falling dead around me with no eyebrows rised wtf this civilian is just calmly stands while bullets are whizing around our heads.
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #347424 is a reply to message #347421] Sun, 30 October 2016 08:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ratpaz

 
Messages:133
Registered:April 2015
Location: Italy
As far as i know, enemies need to see the spy and the corpse at the same time, so for example, if you hide a corpse in a very near room you should be safe, i'm not 100% positive about this though.
You can change the distance enemies can disguise you in Skills_Settings.ini
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #351089 is a reply to message #309312] Fri, 22 September 2017 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ViikZzz
Messages:3
Registered:September 2017
Something is not right in latest SCI version (8468 on GameDir_2385). First click on Take Off Cloth removes disguise but second click doesn't create a usable cloth, neither in merc inventory or sector. Basically you lose it as disguise is not re-activated anymore, unless you get a new set I suppose.
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #351109 is a reply to message #351089] Mon, 25 September 2017 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ViikZzz
Messages:3
Registered:September 2017
Later I've got some military uniform from bodies and by drag and dropping it on character it creates civilian uniform. So I guess Take Off Cloth is only for removing covert status?
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #351110 is a reply to message #351109] Mon, 25 September 2017 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hi ViikZzz, welcome to the pit!

When a disguise is worn, the command is 'Lose disguise'. One loses the covert status, but still wears the clothes. This is essentially so that people have an easy way to change the colours of mercs without loosing that every time the enemy spots them.

If a merc is not disguised, the command is 'Take off clothes'. This removes the clothes.

Applying clothes activates covert property again, and replaces clothes already worn.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 September 2017 22:10]




Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #351118 is a reply to message #351110] Wed, 27 September 2017 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ViikZzz
Messages:3
Registered:September 2017
Quote:
Hi ViikZzz, welcome to the pit!

When a disguise is worn, the command is 'Lose disguise'. One loses the covert status, but still wears the clothes. This is essentially so that people have an easy way to change the colours of mercs without loosing that every time the enemy spots them.

If a merc is not disguised, the command is 'Take off clothes'. This removes the clothes.

Applying clothes activates covert property again, and replaces clothes already worn.

Thank you for explanation, Flugente!
I'll try it again. I might have been running with an old exe.
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #351121 is a reply to message #351118] Thu, 28 September 2017 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
If during the boxing fights your boxer is covert, the fight will immediately end, as the other boxer can't find a hostile boxer. This has been fixed in r8481.

Though honestly, if you want to particiapate in a boxing fight, your could just loose the disguise for the duration of the fight...



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #352562 is a reply to message #351121] Sun, 25 February 2018 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
As of r8528, we have another thing to do as a spy:


As seen in the video, a spy can talk to a non-alerted enemy and pull them into a conversation. The 'spoken' parts are just more or less gibberish - what the hell are they talking about? The important part is that the enemy won't move or look around, making it easy to slip by with another merc. That state lasts until alert is raised or the spy moves. This is obviously useless just with a spy, but can be very useful if you infiltrate with several mercs. Like when, say, trying to get inside a prison with a team not purely made out of spies, and without as little bloodshed as possible.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #352588 is a reply to message #352562] Fri, 02 March 2018 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K-Tom
Messages:3
Registered:March 2018
hi flugente,

big "thumbs up" from another veteran happy - i just recently noticed with delight, that i could still install from my 1997 original CD under Win7, on the engine, which i actually use. I had played some versions of the 1.13 and i must say, you really make the game, what it should have been like from the very begining happy

some questions:

1. about the initial "Meanwhile....", when the queen is informed for the first time, i noticed, that it always happens after my PCs have entered and left an enemy hold sector, but not in the city sector in omerta, when getting the letter lady, whose name i have forgotten, over to A10, whereto i also have changed the entry sector.
I havent tried with a spy, yet....., would it be possible to stay completely undetected for longer, when being undercover?

2. in your introduction, you suggest to sabotage the SAM-battery...., i just cleared the sector yesterday and thought of just blowing up the command desk there, instead of holding the sector under exorbitant losses....., i ran a try, blew the desk and half the building with an LAW and left again. Right after, the reds took it back and were also back in air control....., is such a play possible somehow?

3. i remember, that i once tried to get dynamo out of the prison, without taking over the whole sector, but only the guards in the part of the building, but he wouldn't follow, until the sector was cleared completely...., is there a trick, or can it be changed?

big compliments again and carry on! happy
Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #352613 is a reply to message #352588] Sun, 04 March 2018 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3309
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hi K-Tom, welcome to the pit!

Glad you like it ;) I am somewhat doubtful you have a CD from 1997 with the game on it though happy

1. The Meanwhiles are somewhat tricky. While it is possible to avoid them (I think for the 1st one the 'trick' is to immediately leave so combat does not even start, as any loss/win will trigger it), there is really no point in that - the enemy is still going to resist and send out patrols anyway.

2. There is old AI code repairs the SAM immediately if the group taking it has elites in it or sth. similar. I've added a bit about them rpairing it over time, but currently both are active. If you want to blow it up, I suggest leaving enemies around so that the AI doesn't try to retake it in the first place.
Of course, if you then take it over later, you will need to repair it (can nowadays done as an assignment). You can also hack it and lower its range that way, and later unhack it when you posess it.

3. There is probably some piece of code that forbids him from joining you once any combat has been initiated, which would that you'd have to be extremely stealthy. I'll probably revisit the prisoner taking/releasing part at some point and make it easier, but have no concrete plans to do so at the moment.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #352636 is a reply to message #352613] Wed, 07 March 2018 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K-Tom
Messages:3
Registered:March 2018
Hey Flugente,

thanx for the quick reply, i appreciate that. Your doubtfullness was reasonable, i checked and the CD was published in 1999, it is the one which already had the first 2 patches on it. But still, amazing, that it can still be installed on much newer OS versions, and a sign for good work done by the old sirtech team.

Are these people aware of your work here? I guess they could answer many questions about the AI, where here it is only possible to guess. And maybe they could make contact with the old speakers, so that they could volunteer to deliver some more original sound files for some new game situations happy

I had posted originally in this thread, because i was hoping, that the Spy skill would allow to avoid the initial "Meanwhile", when entering in an occupied sector....., but it does not, as i have found out meanwhile. happy - i also found, that it is always triggered, when a battle occured from moving on the map, but may not be triggered, when changing from an open city sector to an occupied one (in Omerta and in San Mona). The initial "meanwhile" was even triggered, when one of my IMP and Maddog managed to run away and to escape some bloodcats in the norther terretories.

As a play around, and as a general idea....., i found, that the game only is fun at a later stage, when playing the insane modus, but in the beginning it is much harder. Which has let me to the strategy, to avoid confrontation in the beginning and first to start making some money by extreme fighting and gathering some information and team members. I like to have the settings as close to reality, but i do not use the food supply, as for my taste, that goes the little way too deep to still be fun.
This strategy can work well, when also city sectors are not permanently occupied and the awareness level is relatively low in the beginning. I found the settings for this in the INI editor. And logically i think, that the game, also with a higher difficulty level, should always start with the same basic settings, to allow all strategies to work on all difficulty levels. Only for example, that on insane modus, those additional sectors can be taken and held permanently by the queen much faster than in the easier levels. For example, after the initial "Meanwhile", in the easiest level, those sectors are still let open, on the 2nd level, the troops will walk there and occupy some sectors permanently, in the 3rd hardest, the troops are driving there and will occupy some more sectors and on insane they could use helicopetrs and will try to occupy the most sectors and remain there permanently.

Where can i modify the map sectors, which are held permanetly by the queens troops from the beginning on?

Finally another very general question. Do the revised versions, which you release here permanently, always have all other improvements made earlier included, or is it always the last stabile versione with only the announced new functionality, for testing reasons?

Again, compliments for the great work, just have read the new intel thing, which seems to go a bit the same direction as my remarks above.

So long

K-T.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 March 2018 18:39]

Re: New feature: Covert operations[message #352637 is a reply to message #352636] Wed, 07 March 2018 15:05 Go to previous message
K-Tom
Messages:3
Registered:March 2018
p.s.: i think it was already set in the original game, that the number of mercs dropped initially, and thereby the duration of time the helicopter remains in the air over the town, has an impact on the alert level. I remember a game i played once, where i only dropped one merc in the beginning and started to explore the country. At one point, when i ran into the first troops and i pushed "retreat", the battle was finished, but i stayed in the same sector as them and could just stay, or give orders to my guy on the map screen. It was like this during all the game, i played an assasination scenario and when i entered into the queens bedroom at night, her comment was more or less: "who the f*** are you?"
Previous Topic: New feature: additional dialogue
Next Topic: New feature: enemy generals
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Wed May 23 11:59:24 EEST 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02150 seconds