Take a look at the settings in Skills_Settings.ini. Specifically, COVERT_ELITES_DETECT_NEXTTILE allows Elites to uncover you if you are close, even if your disguise is good.
The 'clothes fall off' is the easiest way of drastically indicating that you've been uncovered, and also gives you the means the reapply a disguise again. It is also a nod to Commandos
Due to code reasons, suspicion is boolean. That means that enemies either uncover you instantly or not. Changing that to get, say, a 'suspicion meter' would require a major rework of a lot of code. This is also the reason that 'chance' has no role in uncovering.
You are also only uncovered if you are seen doing something suspicious. If nobody sees you shooting, they can't know you did it.
Everybody can disguise as a civilian. Mercs with the trait can also disguise as soldiers.
With no trait, you will be uncovered if closer to the enemy than COVERT_CLOSE_DETECTION_RANGE tiles.
With lvl1 trait, you will be uncovered in soldier disguise if closer to the enemy than COVERT_CLOSE_DETECTION_RANGE tiles. In civilian diguise you get as close as you like.
With lvl2 trait, you can get as close as you like, both as a civilian and a soldier.
I'm starting to get used to the clothes falling off thing - it being to pieces of clothing I have to reattach in real time mode after a successful kill out of sight means a little bit excitement about whether or not I click in the right spots.
One way that this could be more exciting to me is if disguising would take time in real time mode. This is true for a few things, with first aid being the exception. First aid takes up what feels like more time in real time than round based, while everything else that is less than one round in round based is instant in real time. - Is there a way to build something based on the first aid animations but with a different icon on the merc's face indicating that they're applying camoflague make-up or coverting themselves?
Another thought: since you're putting on clothes, should it take longer if you're say laying down/crouching than standing up? In real life I hate putting on t-shirts while in bed
The above are just ideas. - I've also run into some issues though where sometimes throwing a Molotov cocktail in the midst of a bunch of them doesn't make them angry (sometimes it does, doesn't seem to depend on whether or not they're looking at me, very confusing -- same happened with throwing ninja stars a few times). -- Despite me abusing it a little, I'm enjoying the feature, thanks a lot for making it happen!
Just wanted to say thanks for this feature, it's friggin' awesome.
Killed a patrol outside of Drassen, disguised my entire squad, entered the airport at night, and proceeded to take control of the entire place without firing a single bullet.
Idea: is it possible to make an alternate attack for the garrote that both kills your target, and picks up the body (assuming you have a free hand)? E.g. like in this video.
You can use a disguise as often as you want. To put it on, drag shirt and pants on your merc's silhouette in your inventory. If no hostile sees you doing this, you will get the 'covert' property, indicated by the 'hat' icon.
You can get a soldier's uniform by clicking on a corpse with a knife equipped, this will bring up a small menu where you can select what you want to do. You can also select to pick up a corpse here, one hand must be free. There is no animation for dragging corpses, thus a corpse is simply a very heavy item.
Note that you will not get a shirt/pants if the body part that it is worn on has been damaged - it wouldn't make sense to disguise in a bloody uniform, would it?
When you press [Ctrl] + [.], one of the options you get is to get out of an uniform again. First click simply removes the 'covert' property (in case you simply want to recolour your mercs but not have them lose their clothes whenever an enemy sees them), the second time the clothes are put into your inventory.
Most critique towards this trait comes from the fact that it is very easy to exploit. While direct attacks will get you uncovered, there are many ways to damage the enemy indirectly, like throwing out mustard gas grenades next to the enemy. For internal code reasons, uncovering a spy at that point would require disproportionate effort.
Basically, the problem is that in these cases, the animation is the only clue that a spy is doing a suspicious action - but he will only be uncovered if a enemy soldier does a sight check on him in that very moment. We shouldn't add more of these checks, because sightline checks are very expensive in game time terms.
As of r7514, I've added a workaround: whenever a spy performs a suspicious animation (or certain non-animated actions, like igniting a mustard gas grenade in his inventory), I set up a small combined timer - a few seconds and an AP counter. If an enemy tests the spy before either of these run out, he successfully uncovers the spy.
As a result, most checks now work the way they are intended. You can still do everything as a spy, but now the chance to be uncovered is much higher if people see you doing it.
A second change is that there is a new Skills_Settings.ini setting: If your spy is closer than COVERT_ELITES_UNCOVER_RADIUS tiles to an enemy, he will be uncovered if
the enemy is an elite and the spy is disguised as an admin or regular troop or
the enemy is an officers and your spy is disguised as an admin, regular troop or elite. Note that civilian disguises do not fall under this!
The justification is that troops higher in the hierarchy would know the platoon their with, and would point out if they saw someone they did not know pretend to be one of them. Officers are really dangerous know. Sorta like the old commandos game, where your spy had to avoid the SS even if disguised. If you don't like this change, simply set COVERT_ELITES_UNCOVER_RADIUS to 0.
As a result of these two changes, this trait should feel less overpowered now. Identifying potential threats is now very reasonable to do while infiltrating, and soldier disguises now have a real drawback compared to civilian disguises.
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006 Location: France
Flugente
You will be discovered if:
as civilian:
you are in a restricted sector, like Orta. Civs will be shot on sight here.
I had a strange experience lately concerning this.
Game version is 7492. (Enemy Generals feature active, dunno if it's important)
I land in omerta with my spy IMP, throw everything corrupting a civ disguise, put on the civ clothes, and try to test my disguise with the option from the menu obtained by 'ctrl + .'.
In return, i get the message : ' isn't supposed to be here!'
As soon as i meet any enemy, my disguise falls and i have the same message.
As a civ (disguised), what are the restricted zones and sectors? Is Omerta one of them? Can something or someone (generals?) impact on the restricted zones?
By the way, i really love that feature, thanks for implementing it and for the latest improvements to make it even more balanced.
Messages:280
Registered:August 2011 Location: Division Thought Crimes
I can confirm the crashes for this particular version, but couldn't reproduce it in the latest Unstable_Revision_7516_on_GameDir_2148 for SDO. So either "upgrade" or live with it this playthrough i guess.
I've been coming back to JA2 and it is amazing what modders can do - and do this game.
Thank you for your amazing work.
Being a noob modder I had a lot of questions but could solve most of them by reading and some trial and error.
I'm a bit stuck now though.
Playing with Strohmanns latest stable Release (7435) + AR and then copied over the files from latest unstable release. Everything works fine and my question should be true for all versions anyway:
Where can I find civilian clothes?
I got Mouse but she carries non and has no kit that has them. BR is in Estoni (due to AR) and I could either cheat or kill some random civilian to get the clothes.
Are there any available clothes (not army uniforms, civilian) in San Mona/Omerta/Drassen?
buy them from shopkeepers. In vanilla 1.13, Keith and especially Tina sell clothes, though both is currently out of your reach.
find them as items in houses - it is highly unlikely that anybody has placed them there though.
Kill people and take their clothes. The best way to retrieve uniforms. Notice that you will be disguised as a soldier only if both vest and pants fit an army uniform pattern. In vanilla 1.13 these are yellow vest & green pants (admin), red vest & green pants (regular troop) and black vest & black pants (elite). If you combine a red vest with black pants, you would be disguised as a civilian - this an easy way to get a civilian disguise without resorting to atrocities in your case
Notice that, if you kill someone, clothes can be damaged. If you want to retrieve a vest, it would be good not to make any messy holes into it
I think the trick to combine a red shirt (regular) and a black pants (elite) to have civilian clothes is pretty convenient. Thank you, that is a really good way.
For testing purposes I disguised Mouse as a soldier, sneaked into Cambria to buy clothes ... which seems a bit off - but works. ^^
Thank you for this great feature and your support.
Wow man I had no idea spies were such a powerful tool, I just added the option of having tanks attack on patrols and I can easily sneak on the tank, plant a C4 charge and make a "stealthy" run for it (or else the A.I. identifies my footsteps and the tank runs me over)... once I have dealt with all armored threats I infiltrate the sector during night (or just have my mercs wait on the map edge until job is done) and with superior night vision power, silenced weapons and camo I've dealt with patrols of 50 guys + 3 tanks.
I'm effing impressed, this is a feature worth a ton of fucking money... it's good, it feels well balanced, it was well thought through... seriously man, this is a 10/10. This is like a mix of Agent 47 + Commandos + pure turn based goodness and geniality. I am fucking impressed.
Some suggestions to make covert playing more balanced:
1. restrict covert spies from using flashlights at night
2. restrict covert spies from using radio
3. maybe optionally uncover any spy when the battle starts (red alert raised or enemy knows that enemy is in sector) and there are some killed army guys, so you can use a spy to sneaky kill one or two important army officers, but you cannot stay in enemy sight when the battle is going on (army guys usually start shooting at everything that moves when some of their friends are killed)
4. changing covert state from boolean to suspiciousness percent level can add a lot to the covert playing, this will allow, for example, to quickly pass by a lone enemy guard but force player to avoid coming close to groups of enemies, or you can even make a suspicious action (pick a lock) if there's only one admin standing in the room, but once you do this, you should hide somewhere and wait for the "suspiciousness counter" to become low again after some time
1. Sounds reasonable, flashsights could easily be exploited.
2. Hmm. I guess I'll add radio-ing to the list of actions that briefly make you easily uncoverable. I thought it already was, but apparently not.
3. That seems to situational. While I get your intention (it is a good idea), one could kill an enemy, then move to another part of the map and stay there for x minutes without doing anything. There would be no reason to uncover the spy then. I'm not sure how the situation you describe can easily be 'caught' without causing false positives.
4. I know the boolean state is restricting, but a counter won't work. Or better said, it will work, but will render the feature unpredictable and frustrating.
The reason is that the 'covert check' is run in many different locations, at different times during the code. Updating the check only at fixed times would render a loophole. In order not to allow the player to exploit 'check-free times', we pretty mucht try to check every time we reevaluate whether someone might be an enemy.
A downside of this is that these checks are then called by numerous occasions. For example, if a merc exits a vehicle, every person in the sector reevaluates their sight of everybody else (which is reasonable - we have to make sure everybody who can sees the merc instantly). As a result, if a covert merc is seen by an enemy, the check will run again. So if we have a 'suspicion level', it will now rise - just because someone else on the other end of the map did sth unrelated to our spy or the enemies nearby.
I hope it's somewhat clear what I mean.
Come to think about it - I guess your idea might be possible if we create an array of 'suspicion level' for each soldier regarding every other soldier. Each turn (or fixed time period) this gets nulled (or lowered by a defined amount) again. Each check would have to return a suspicion level, and for each soldier the results are stored in that array. Subsequent checks ar written in there (possible using a max(...) calculation with the previous value). At the end of each check, create the 'suspicion level sum' for the covert person in question regarding all enemies. If the sum or max or whatever of the levels is high enough, uncover the spy.
Hmm. Have to thnk about this (you do that too, in case I missed something ).
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
I understand that it's a lot of code work, so it's not a request but maybe some ideas of how this could be improved in the future.
I was thinking about changing the suspicious level every time when the APs are spent (and maybe also when soldier counters are updated in case we just stand still in realtime in enemy's sight), and uncover spy only if new suspicious level is higher than max possible.
Since AI's are communicating with their friends, we can have a suspicious counter for each covert soldier, and every time he makes some bad actions (spends APs), we change his counter, if he stays somewhere in cover and noone sees him, his counter is lowered, so it's something similar to IIS system where we know the "interrupt type" when we deduct APs and this may trigger interrupt, and I think APs are spent in realtime also.
So if we show this counter as for example a color of soldier's name (similar to sight cover now) or a bar above the soldier, this will make a feature more visually user-friendly - if the bar becomes orange/red - move out of here quickly, if it's green and not increasing - we can stay here and do what we were doing.
EDIT: about 2 - using covert spies in the battle means you don't need scouts anymore - no crawling in the shadows in full camo or spotting with binocs, just walk here and there and spot enemy. This is both unbalancing and unrealistic.
So for balance reasons I think any spies should be restricted to appear in enemy sight as soon as the battle starts, maybe this could be better implemented with discussed suspicious counters than current binary logic.
sevenfm made a very good code addition to this trait, which is now a new option:
As of r8210 & GameDir r2318, if the new skill setting COVERT_STRIPIFUNCOVERED is FALSE (which is now the default setting),
- we can only disguise successfully if we haven't been seen recently (last 3 turns)
- disabled automatic clothes stripping when uncovered
- redisguise automatically if spy haven't been seen by enemy recently and wears correct clothes
As a result, you no longer have to worry about stripped uniforms fitting in your inventory, and will be automatically be re-disguised after 3 turns out of the enemies sight. But until that point in time, you cannot regain the covert property, even if you manually apply another uniform. This seems a bit more realistic than the current system. The redisguise check is performed at the start of every turn.
Juicily enough, the check on whether any enemy has seen you in the last 3 turns only refers to alive enemies at that time. So if you are uncovered, you can drastically lower the time until automatic redisguise by quickly murdering any witnesses (technically, collapsing or coma-ing them suffices).
Set COVERT_STRIPIFUNCOVERED to TRUE and the old method, without any redisguising, will be used.
For more info on this change (and quiet a few other juicy bits, including for this very trait), check this out.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
I found that with automatic disguise enabled, it's not easy to take off clothes, because you have to quickly select "loose disguise/strip" option in messagebox twice or it will turn disguse on again, so it should probably call pSoldier->Strip() twice in Handle Items.cpp/TacticalFunctionSelectionMessageBoxCallBack if the option is turned on so it will loose disguise and then strip immediately.
Yeah, but then one loses the ability to have a person wear new clothes but not have the disguise property. While merely visual, I found that useful. In my 64 mercs game I started dressing mercs according to squad and their role (pants indicate squad, vest indicates role, so for example, if Scope wears a red vest with black pants, this indicates that she's a sniper in Black squad). I'd rather keep that (without everybody always having the disguised symbol and (un-)disguising all the time. I think this might be solvable with an extra flag and perhaps a new button on the menu.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
As of r8211, if a merc intentionally removes the diguise property via the [Ctrl] + [.] menu, the disguise property will not be reapplied until new clothes are applied, even if COVERT_STRIPIFUNCOVERED is set to FALSE in Skills_Settings.ini. This allows dressing up mercs in other colours without them being subject to covert mechanics.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
As of r8215, if we disguise someone (by telling them to put on clothes), we immediately test their disguise (any reasonable player using spies would do this afterwards anyway, so this simply saves time).
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
What if spy has damaged vest but did not lose his disguise? (maybe he was hit by unaimed shot or he shot himself).
It seems that SeemsLegit doesn't check for that. Maybe add something like this to SeemsLegit:
If i understand it right if my civilian spy(or 1 point covert op) is 5 tiles from fresh corpse and seen by enemy then he looses disquise.
Does one enemy needs to see both the corpse and spy or corpse can be behind corner and loose_disquise is triggered?
If both corpse and spy needs to be seen, does it need to be seen by same enemy or one can see only corpse and other can see spy and loose_disquise is triggered?
Also I would like to know is there option where I can change/adjust distance (if possible 500 tiles just in case if bigger maps than bigmaps come out)? Because right now I can kill someone silently, move few tiles away and (if not spotted) leave the trail of corpses behind me without enemy caring much about it.
With increased (adjustable) distance I think it would be more realistic like, if I want to silently kill someone I would either have to plan ahead on how to hide corpse, kill in some hidden area where no one goes, move far far away from corpse/s (if I don't hide them).. or not just stand next to enemy group as spotter and people just falling dead around me with no eyebrows rised wtf this civilian is just calmly stands while bullets are whizing around our heads.
As far as i know, enemies need to see the spy and the corpse at the same time, so for example, if you hide a corpse in a very near room you should be safe, i'm not 100% positive about this though.
You can change the distance enemies can disguise you in Skills_Settings.ini
Something is not right in latest SCI version (8468 on GameDir_2385). First click on Take Off Cloth removes disguise but second click doesn't create a usable cloth, neither in merc inventory or sector. Basically you lose it as disguise is not re-activated anymore, unless you get a new set I suppose.
Later I've got some military uniform from bodies and by drag and dropping it on character it creates civilian uniform. So I guess Take Off Cloth is only for removing covert status?
When a disguise is worn, the command is 'Lose disguise'. One loses the covert status, but still wears the clothes. This is essentially so that people have an easy way to change the colours of mercs without loosing that every time the enemy spots them.
If a merc is not disguised, the command is 'Take off clothes'. This removes the clothes.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
When a disguise is worn, the command is 'Lose disguise'. One loses the covert status, but still wears the clothes. This is essentially so that people have an easy way to change the colours of mercs without loosing that every time the enemy spots them.
If a merc is not disguised, the command is 'Take off clothes'. This removes the clothes.
If during the boxing fights your boxer is covert, the fight will immediately end, as the other boxer can't find a hostile boxer. This has been fixed in r8481.
Though honestly, if you want to particiapate in a boxing fight, your could just loose the disguise for the duration of the fight...
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
As of r8528, we have another thing to do as a spy:
As seen in the video, a spy can talk to a non-alerted enemy and pull them into a conversation. The 'spoken' parts are just more or less gibberish - what the hell are they talking about? The important part is that the enemy won't move or look around, making it easy to slip by with another merc. That state lasts until alert is raised or the spy moves. This is obviously useless just with a spy, but can be very useful if you infiltrate with several mercs. Like when, say, trying to get inside a prison with a team not purely made out of spies, and without as little bloodshed as possible.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
big "thumbs up" from another veteran - i just recently noticed with delight, that i could still install from my 1997 original CD under Win7, on the engine, which i actually use. I had played some versions of the 1.13 and i must say, you really make the game, what it should have been like from the very begining
some questions:
1. about the initial "Meanwhile....", when the queen is informed for the first time, i noticed, that it always happens after my PCs have entered and left an enemy hold sector, but not in the city sector in omerta, when getting the letter lady, whose name i have forgotten, over to A10, whereto i also have changed the entry sector.
I havent tried with a spy, yet....., would it be possible to stay completely undetected for longer, when being undercover?
2. in your introduction, you suggest to sabotage the SAM-battery...., i just cleared the sector yesterday and thought of just blowing up the command desk there, instead of holding the sector under exorbitant losses....., i ran a try, blew the desk and half the building with an LAW and left again. Right after, the reds took it back and were also back in air control....., is such a play possible somehow?
3. i remember, that i once tried to get dynamo out of the prison, without taking over the whole sector, but only the guards in the part of the building, but he wouldn't follow, until the sector was cleared completely...., is there a trick, or can it be changed?
Glad you like it ;) I am somewhat doubtful you have a CD from 1997 with the game on it though
1. The Meanwhiles are somewhat tricky. While it is possible to avoid them (I think for the 1st one the 'trick' is to immediately leave so combat does not even start, as any loss/win will trigger it), there is really no point in that - the enemy is still going to resist and send out patrols anyway.
2. There is old AI code repairs the SAM immediately if the group taking it has elites in it or sth. similar. I've added a bit about them rpairing it over time, but currently both are active. If you want to blow it up, I suggest leaving enemies around so that the AI doesn't try to retake it in the first place.
Of course, if you then take it over later, you will need to repair it (can nowadays done as an assignment). You can also hack it and lower its range that way, and later unhack it when you posess it.
3. There is probably some piece of code that forbids him from joining you once any combat has been initiated, which would that you'd have to be extremely stealthy. I'll probably revisit the prisoner taking/releasing part at some point and make it easier, but have no concrete plans to do so at the moment.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.
thanx for the quick reply, i appreciate that. Your doubtfullness was reasonable, i checked and the CD was published in 1999, it is the one which already had the first 2 patches on it. But still, amazing, that it can still be installed on much newer OS versions, and a sign for good work done by the old sirtech team.
Are these people aware of your work here? I guess they could answer many questions about the AI, where here it is only possible to guess. And maybe they could make contact with the old speakers, so that they could volunteer to deliver some more original sound files for some new game situations
I had posted originally in this thread, because i was hoping, that the Spy skill would allow to avoid the initial "Meanwhile", when entering in an occupied sector....., but it does not, as i have found out meanwhile. - i also found, that it is always triggered, when a battle occured from moving on the map, but may not be triggered, when changing from an open city sector to an occupied one (in Omerta and in San Mona). The initial "meanwhile" was even triggered, when one of my IMP and Maddog managed to run away and to escape some bloodcats in the norther terretories.
As a play around, and as a general idea....., i found, that the game only is fun at a later stage, when playing the insane modus, but in the beginning it is much harder. Which has let me to the strategy, to avoid confrontation in the beginning and first to start making some money by extreme fighting and gathering some information and team members. I like to have the settings as close to reality, but i do not use the food supply, as for my taste, that goes the little way too deep to still be fun.
This strategy can work well, when also city sectors are not permanently occupied and the awareness level is relatively low in the beginning. I found the settings for this in the INI editor. And logically i think, that the game, also with a higher difficulty level, should always start with the same basic settings, to allow all strategies to work on all difficulty levels. Only for example, that on insane modus, those additional sectors can be taken and held permanently by the queen much faster than in the easier levels. For example, after the initial "Meanwhile", in the easiest level, those sectors are still let open, on the 2nd level, the troops will walk there and occupy some sectors permanently, in the 3rd hardest, the troops are driving there and will occupy some more sectors and on insane they could use helicopetrs and will try to occupy the most sectors and remain there permanently.
Where can i modify the map sectors, which are held permanetly by the queens troops from the beginning on?
Finally another very general question. Do the revised versions, which you release here permanently, always have all other improvements made earlier included, or is it always the last stabile versione with only the announced new functionality, for testing reasons?
Again, compliments for the great work, just have read the new intel thing, which seems to go a bit the same direction as my remarks above.
p.s.: i think it was already set in the original game, that the number of mercs dropped initially, and thereby the duration of time the helicopter remains in the air over the town, has an impact on the alert level. I remember a game i played once, where i only dropped one merc in the beginning and started to explore the country. At one point, when i ran into the first troops and i pushed "retreat", the battle was finished, but i stayed in the same sector as them and could just stay, or give orders to my guy on the map screen. It was like this during all the game, i played an assasination scenario and when i entered into the queens bedroom at night, her comment was more or less: "who the f*** are you?"
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- i just recently noticed with delight, that i could still install from my 1997 original CD under Win7, on the engine, which i actually use. I had played some versions of the 1.13 and i must say, you really make the game, what it should have been like from the very begining 