Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310404] Wed, 19 September 2012 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAsmine

 
Messages:321
Registered:May 2011
My proposal for revising the variables:

Importance 5/5 (vital to the role):
ubShotsPer4Turns
APsToReloadManually
ubReadyTime

Importance 4/5 (important to the role):
ubReadyTime
ubMagSize
ubBurstPenalty
BurstShotsPerBurstAP
bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP
AutoPenalty
Stock - Folding/Retractable
Trigger Group
Foregrip
Reflex/Kobra
Magazine Adapter

Importance 3/5 (helpful to the role):
Damage
Match Sights
Scope 2x
Magazine Adapter
APsToReload
ubMagSize
ubBurstPenalty
AutoPenalty

Importance 2/5 (mildly helpful to the role):
bAccuracy
APsToReload
Rifle LAM, Aimpoint, ISM

Importance 1/5 (barely helpful to the role):
usRange
bReliability
Shotgun Chokes, Duckbill

Importance 0/5 (irrelevant to the role):
NoSemiAuto
AttackVolume
Flash Suppressor
Suppressor
Grenade Launcher
Scope 10x, PSO-3
Scope 7x
Scope 4x, PSO-1, ZF-42, No 32, PEM


Explanation:
I made mag size in general (w/wo adapter) less important. Large mags are of course better than small mags, but this is true for all roles, isn't it? Being able to fire quickly is more important in CQB, so I made ready time more important. I crossed out reliability, because it is equally important for all roles. APs to reload made more important, because taking up to many APs to reload can be deadly in CQB. Burst/auto penalty made less important, because at close range it isn't as bad when your guns "spray".
All changes were also made, so that maybe LMGs shouldn't surpass some PDWs or MPs...
What do you think??

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2012 18:58] by Moderator


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310405] Wed, 19 September 2012 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Headhunter
How about upping ReadyTime to 5/5 and lowering the Burst-related stuff to 3/5?

Yes, Tais made this exact suggestion as well.

JAsmine
My proposal for revising the variables:

Thanks for your suggestions (and Sam_Hotte)--please keep them coming! After talking in IRC (very special thanks to DepressivesBrot and Tais), we came to much of the same conclusions.
Burst/AP was lowered to 3/5 and Auto/AP was lowered to 2/5. Burst Penalty and Auto Penalty were reduced to 1/5 because the penalties don't matter very much at those short ranges. Magazine size and mag adapters were downgraded to 1/5 for the same reasons you stated. ReadyTime was bumped up to 5/5 again for the same reason you stated. Reflex scopes and Stocks were moved up to correspond to readytime and ShotsPer4Turns. The only thing I take issue with is getting rid of Reliability. Much like my rationale for damage as 3/5 for all weapons, a more reliable weapon is always better than a less reliable one, and that should be reflected (though very slightly at 1/5).

Here are the revised importance rates. I also converted the burst- and auto- related scales to simple 1-20 scales where semi-automatics get 1s. Because of the triggergroup variable, these weapons were getting hit much to heavily, and I think this account for the huge burst preference we saw before. I will post a new list of top weapons to see what you guys think.

Importance 5/5 (vital to the role):
ubReadyTime
ubShotsPer4Turns
APsToReloadManually
Reflex/Kobra
Stock - Folding/Retractable

Importance 4/5 (important to the role):
(none)

Importance 3/5 (helpful to the role):
BurstShotsPerBurstAP
Trigger Group
Damage
Match Sights
Scope 2x
Foregrip

Importance 2/5 (mildly helpful to the role):
bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP
bAccuracy
APsToReload
Rifle LAM, Aimpoint, ISM

Importance 1/5 (barely helpful to the role):
ubBurstPenalty
AutoPenalty
ubMagSize
Magazine Adapter
usRange
bReliability
Shotgun Chokes, Duckbill

Importance 0/5 (irrelevant to the role):
NoSemiAuto
AttackVolume
Flash Suppressor
Suppressor
Grenade Launcher
Scope 10x, PSO-3
Scope 7x
Scope 4x, PSO-1, ZF-42, No 32, PEM
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310406] Wed, 19 September 2012 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Here's a new top 30--roughly the top 10% of CQB weapons with their scaled stats (remember, they're 1-20):
Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
HK MP7A1	501.82	74.54	1	17.5	20	4.5	12.5	16.66	17	6.5	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	10
KAC PDW	        517.6	73.34	2	15	20	10.5	12.5	14	11	8	1	19.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	19.6	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0	10
AK-107	        583.5	70.7	3	7	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	10	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10
AK-108	        582.92	70.55	4	7	10	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10
HK G36C	        529	70.19	5	12.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	18.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	20	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Colt M4A1	512.28	70.18	6	12.5	15	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
FAMAE SAF	449.5	70.08	7	13.5	15	4.5	12.5	14	11	7	18.5	4.5	19	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
AN-94 "Abakan	561.64	69.74	8	5.5	14	10.5	17.66	14	11	11.66	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	20	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	0
AEK-971	        571.92	69.6	9	7	13	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	0
XM-8 Compact	506.5	69.54	10	13.75	16	8	17	14	11	10	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
AEK-973	        573.34	69.34	11	7	9	14	12.5	14	11	12.42	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	6.5	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	10	0
HK 416 10"	549.6	68.99	12	10.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Colt M4 Comma	491.1	68.76	13	13.5	17	10.5	7.5	14	11	10.8	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK MP5A4	466	68.76	14	13.75	15	4.5	17	14	11	7.5	10	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0
XM-8 Baseline	527	68.67	15	12.5	14	10.5	17	14	11	11	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Colt M16A1	536.22	68.29	16	10.5	12	13	12.5	14	11	12.86	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	16	4.75	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK 416 14"	551.28	68.07	17	9	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
FAMAE SAF Sil	447.82	67.51	18	12	12	3	17	14	11	5.66	15	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	0	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
SIG SG552 Com	519	67.21	19	10.5	13	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	15.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
FN SCAR-L CQC	526.6	66.91	20	12	13	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	15.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
FN P90	        489.78	66.61	21	15	20	6	17	18.1	5.5	9.54	1	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	19.5	15.5	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
HK 416 16"	529.84	66.41	22	8	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.42	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10
XM-8 Sharpsho	535.6	66.34	23	10.5	11	10.5	17	14	11	15.3	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	10	10
SIG SG551 SWA	531	66.31	24	8	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	15.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Colt XM177-E1	495.1	66.18	25	13.25	15	8	7.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0
FAMAE Mini SA	408.4	65.97	26	14	16	2	6	14	11	0.95	15	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
HK 53A3	        478.76	65.62	27	10.5	12	8	12.5	14	11	9.88	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Colt 9mm SMG	465.4	65.52	28	13.25	14	4.5	12.5	14	11	8.2	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0
AK-105	        507.9	65.43	29	9	12	8	12.5	14	11	10.2	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	18.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10
AK-102	        510.3	65.23	30	9	10	10.5	12.5	14	11	10.9	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10


Some notable movers from before:
- The MP7 rose from 20 to 1, passing the KAC PDW
- The P90 rose from 44 to 21
- The Magpul rose from 65 to 32
- The HK23E fell from 16 to 65
- The HKMG36 fell from 13 to 42
- The Colt M4A1 rose from 24 to 6

I'll do a more detailed analysis below--it will take me a little while, meanwhile you guys can let me know what you think of the new top 30.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2012 20:11] by Moderator

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310407] Wed, 19 September 2012 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter

 
Messages:268
Registered:November 2009
Location: Sweden
How come the P90 is still so comparatively crappy? I mean, it's not bad or anything but all these full-size assault rifles (AK-100's, AN-94, AEK's) that keeps beating it aren't that good either. And what makes these russian guns so good anyway?




Anyways, good work with doing all this stuff and thanks for taking the time!
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310410] Wed, 19 September 2012 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Here are some details on the MP7, P90, and Magpul. The values represent how many "CQB Points" were earned for each variable.
Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
HK MP7A1	501.82	73.71	1	9.73	11.12	1.5	2.78	1.85	3.78	0.72	0.33	1.28	3.45	1.28	0	11.12	0	1.39	0	0	5.56	3.34	3.34	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.34	5.56	0	2.22
FN P90	        489.78	65.87	21	8.34	11.12	2	3.78	2.01	1.22	1.06	0.33	2.06	3.45	2.06	0	11.12	0	1.72	0	0	0	3.34	3.34	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.34	5.56	0	0
Magpul PDR-D	474.7	64.3	32	9.73	11.12	4.34	2.78	1.56	0.78	1.12	0.33	2.06	1.45	2.06	0	11.12	0	1.39	0	0	0	0	3.34	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.34	5.56	0	2.22


Here are the differences between the MP7 and P90 in terms of CQB Points:
Name	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
FN P90	-1.39	0	0.5	1	0.16	-2.56	0.34	0	0.78	0	0.78	0	0	0	0.33	0	0	-5.56	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	-2.22


The P90 loses 1.39 points for slower readytime, 2.56 points for reloading more slowly (it's a bullpup), 5.56 because the MP7 has an integral stock and the P90 can't equip one, and 2.22 due to RifleLAM/Aimpoint. Of course, the MP7 can't equip a Rifle LAM or Aimpoint, so that's troubling.

It looks like the ISM attachment struck again--18 weapons that can equip an ISM but not a RifleLAM/Aimpoint did not have their bonuses removed when I moved the ISM from the RifleLAM variable to the Reflex Sight variable. This also somewhat explains the sudden appearance of the XM-8 weapons. I will fix this and recalculate. I'm going to put the Reflex Sights and Stocks down a step in importance because the base stats (ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns) are more important than attachments that modify them. This is a good lesson we'll have to remember for later.

Headhunter
Anyways, good work with doing all this stuff and thanks for taking the time!

Thank you. I have officially realized why no one (including myself) has succeeding in doing this before.

If the AK's are still at the top after these changes, I'll do a comparison analysis on one of them.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2012 21:30] by Moderator

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310411] Wed, 19 September 2012 21:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
sorca_2
If the AK's are still at the top after these changes, I'll do a comparison analysis on one of them.
Please do so. To me, that's a far more interesting comparison than why it loses to a valid contender.


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310412] Wed, 19 September 2012 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Here's a new Top 30:
Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM																						
HK MP7A1	481.82	70.84	1	17.5	20	4.5	12.5	16.66	17	6.5	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0																						
KAC PDW 	497.6	69.62	2	15	20	10.5	12.5	14	11	8	1	19.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	19.6	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0	0																						
AK-107  	583.5	69.23	3	7	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	10	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10																						
AK-108  	582.92	69.08	4	7	10	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10																						
HK G36C  	529	68.71	5	12.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	18.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	20	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
Colt M4A1	512.28	68.7	6	12.5	15	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
FAMAE SAF	449.5	68.6	7	13.5	15	4.5	12.5	14	11	7	18.5	4.5	19	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0																						
AN-94 "Abaka	561.64	68.26	8	5.5	14	10.5	17.66	14	11	11.66	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	20	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	0																						
AEK-971 	571.92	68.11	9	7	13	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	0																						
AEK-973 	573.34	67.85	10	7	9	14	12.5	14	11	12.42	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	6.5	12.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	10	0																						
HK 416 10"	549.6	67.5	11	10.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
Colt M4 Comm	491.1	67.27	12	13.5	17	10.5	7.5	14	11	10.8	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
HK MP5A4	466	67.26	13	13.75	15	4.5	17	14	11	7.5	10	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0																						
Colt M16A1	536.22	66.79	14	10.5	12	13	12.5	14	11	12.86	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	16	4.75	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
HK 416 14"	551.28	66.57	15	9	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
FN P90  	489.78	66.23	16	15	20	6	17	18.1	5.5	9.54	1	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	19.5	15.5	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0																						
FAMAE SAF Si	447.82	66	17	12	12	3	17	14	11	5.66	15	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	0	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0																						
XM-8 Compact	486.5	65.78	18	13.75	16	8	17	14	11	10	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0																						
SIG SG552 Co	519	65.7	19	10.5	13	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	15.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
FN SCAR-L CQ	526.6	65.39	20	12	13	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	15.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
XM-8 Baselin	507	64.9	21	12.5	14	10.5	17	14	11	11	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0																						
HK 416 16"	529.84	64.89	22	8	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.42	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10																						
SIG SG551 SW	531	64.79	23	8	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	15.5	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
Colt XM177-E	495.1	64.65	24	13.25	15	8	7.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	10	10	10	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0																						
HK G11	521.6	64.48	25	12	13	10.5	8	18	17	15.3	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	13	15.5	10	0	0	10	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	0																						
FAMAE Mini S	408.4	64.44	26	14	16	2	6	14	11	0.95	15	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0																						
HK 53A3 	478.76	64.09	27	10.5	12	8	12.5	14	11	9.88	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10																						
Colt 9mm SMG	465.4	63.99	28	13.25	14	4.5	12.5	14	11	8.2	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0																						
AK-105	        507.9	63.9	29	9	12	8	12.5	14	11	10.2	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	18.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10																						
AK-102	        510.3	63.7	30	9	10	10.5	12.5	14	11	10.9	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10																						


Finally the P90 gets some love and breaks the top 20. The XM-8 weapons disappeared (except the Compact), but unfortunately the Magpul went down again because it was benefiting from the ISM error. I'll do some analyses on the AK-107, the P90, and the Magpul (and anything else you let me know about in the next few minutes).
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310413] Wed, 19 September 2012 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAsmine

 
Messages:321
Registered:May 2011
The list is getting better and better.
If you can find out what's up with those AK's, I'd buy.

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310415] Wed, 19 September 2012 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
It might help to just up the spreadsheet to googledocs so everyone can test possible alterations instead of going through the post->get reply->test->format for forum->post->wait for reply routine every time.


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310416] Wed, 19 September 2012 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Here are our 3 weapons with the amount of points earned for each variable.
Name	CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM																			
AK-107	583.5	69.23	3	3.98	6.83	3.58	2.84	1.59	2.5	1.37	3.41	2.22	3.53	2.28	0	11.38	0	2.1	0	0	4.55	3.41	3.41	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.41	4.55	0	2.28																			
FN P90	489.78	66.23	16	8.53	11.38	2.05	3.87	2.06	1.25	1.09	0.34	2.1	3.53	2.1	0	11.38	0	1.76	0	0	0	3.41	3.41	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.41	4.55	0	0																			
Magpul 	454.7	62.34	32	9.95	11.38	4.44	2.84	1.59	0.8	1.15	0.34	2.1	1.48	2.1	0	11.38	0	1.42	0	0	0	0	3.41	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.41	4.55	0	0																			


Let's start with AK-107 vs. P90. The table below shows the difference in points for the P90 for each variable. The second number (difference in weighted CQB score) tells you how many total points it is behind the AK-107.
Name	CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
FN P90	-93.72	-3	13	4.55	4.55	-1.53	1.03	0.47	-1.25	-0.28	-3.07	-0.12	0	-0.18	0	0	0	-0.34	0	0	-4.55	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	-2.28

The P90 has a 3-point deficit. The P90 gets huge points for ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns. It takes minor losses for damage and reload AP. It takes a moderate loss for not being compatible with a Rifle LAM. However, the biggest losses are 3 points for not having burst (now much more reasonable than the 11-point deficit we saw a few revisions ago) and a 4.5 point hit for not having a stock or stock compatibility. What do you think? Do we need to hit the stock and/or reflex importance down again? Both are currently at 4/5.

Now let's look at the AK-107 vs. the Magpul.
Name	CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM																			
Magpul	-128.8	-6.89	29	5.97	4.55	0.86	0	0	-1.7	-0.22	-3.07	-0.12	-2.05	-0.18	0	0	0	-0.68	0	0	-4.55	-3.41	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	-2.28																			

The Magpul has a deficit of about 7 points. Like the P90, the Magpul gets massive bonuses for ready time and firing rate. Actually, the story here is pretty much the same as the one above--the biggest hits are in burst capability and stock support. The Magpul gets an extra 3.4 hit because it can't attach a trigger group like the P90.

The common theme here is the stock penalty. If we think stock compatibility isn't very important for CQB, it should push a lost of those full-size rifles down. I haven't even discussed pistols--obviously they're getting murdered by all of that as well.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310417] Wed, 19 September 2012 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
I'd speculate that the AKs/AEKs benefit from having the most possible attachments since they accept Kobra/PSOs as well as the western things.

I still do not think ready time being "vital" but "important".

And it seems very illogical to me that time to reload should be more important than mag size. If the mag is large enough, i do not need to reload at all amidst the toughest battle. Hence magsize is at least as important as time to reload IMO.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310418] Wed, 19 September 2012 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
Reflex/Kobra and PSO/ACOG are handled by the same variable - if it can take either, it gets the points.
Ready time is Vital. We settled on defining CQC more or less as 'offensively clearing a building'. If you simply want to kill everyone running out of a door, a fast firing MG works just as well but isn't really in the spirit of things.
Relatedly, capacity isn't particularly important as long as you can dictate the pace - although, yes, reloading could as well go down to the same level as capacity.


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310420] Wed, 19 September 2012 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
The example of Magpul PDR IMO illustrates a fault in the evaluation system: We should not evaluate the fact if the gun accepts an important attachment or not, but the resulting stat if the e.g. folding stock is attached.
We would then compare the e.g. magpul's ready time of 1 with the readytime of an e.g. AK 107 with folding stock attached.
(And for precision we had to also take the to-hit penalty of folding stock into the comparison but this could IMHO be omitted for the sake of not being overly complicated)

As to readytime: Tho agreeing on CQC's "definition", this still doesn't mean that i had to lower and re-raise the gun of every merc every turn (and i see Sandro waving at the horizon with the feature 'walking with weapon raised' ... Wink )
Anyway, that's just a detail and i could live with being overruled by the IRC conspiracy in this aspect ... Very Happy
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310421] Wed, 19 September 2012 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
Apropos IRC conspiracy, you keep bringing up the same issues with about an hour delay - yes, we've been trying for some time now to accurately account for the actual improvement such attachments provide Razz
Come join the darkside, we have cookies*


*if somebody brings some.


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310428] Thu, 20 September 2012 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sam_Hotte
The example of Magpul PDR IMO illustrates a fault in the evaluation system: We should not evaluate the fact if the gun accepts an important attachment or not, but the resulting stat if the e.g. folding stock is attached.

This is what I ended up doing. The Stocks variable was completely redone by scaling it against the ReadyTime decrease for that weapon. I then ran an example case and messed with the weighting until two weapons with the same ReadyTime (one with a stock bonus and one without) had the same points earned. The magic ratio was to weight the Stocks variable at 10% of the ReadyTime variable. You'll see what I mean below.

Here's a new top 30 with the revised stocks:
Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	Total	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
HK MP7A1	462.82	68.66	1	255.66	17.5	20	4.5	12.5	16.66	17	6.5	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	0.5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
FN P90	        489.78	68.57	2	269.64	15	20	6	17	18.1	5.5	9.54	1	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	19.5	15.5	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
AK-107	        589.5	67.73	3	334	7	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	10	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10
AK-108	        588.92	67.57	4	333.71	7	10	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	8.5	18.5	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	10
KAC PDW	        479.6	67.43	5	269.6	15	20	10.5	12.5	14	11	8	1	19.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	19.6	12.5	10	10	1	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0	0
AN-94 "Abaka	572.64	66.87	6	331.32	5.5	14	10.5	17.66	14	11	11.66	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	20	6.5	10	10	15.5	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	0
HK G11	        521.6	66.76	7	287.3	12	13	10.5	8	18	17	15.3	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	13	15.5	10	0	0	10	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	0
HK G36C	        517	66.67	8	290	12.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	18.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	20	10	10	4	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Colt M4A1	500.28	66.65	9	284.39	12.5	15	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	10	10	4	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
AEK-971	        577.92	66.57	10	333.21	7	13	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	0	0
FAMAE SAF	434.5	66.46	11	241.5	13.5	15	4.5	12.5	14	11	7	18.5	4.5	19	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	2.5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
AEK-973  	579.34	66.3	12	327.92	7	9	14	12.5	14	11	12.42	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	6.5	12.5	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	10	10	0
HK 416 10"	541.6	65.52	13	307.3	10.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	6	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
FAMAS G2	499.66	65.2	14	284.08	12	15	10.5	12.5	14	3.5	14.33	17	11.5	19	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	10	10	0	10	0	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0
Colt M4 Comm	476.1	65.08	15	272.3	13.5	17	10.5	7.5	14	11	10.8	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	6.5	10	10	2.5	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK MP5A4	450	65.05	16	254.25	13.75	15	4.5	17	14	11	7.5	10	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	2	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0
Colt M16A1	528.22	64.8	17	302.11	10.5	12	13	12.5	14	11	12.86	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	16	4.75	10	10	6	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK 416 14"	549.28	64.74	18	311.14	9	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	9	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Magpul PDR-D	454.7	64.56	19	257.1	17.5	20	13	12.5	14	3.5	10.1	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	19.5	12.5	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	0	0
AICW	        502.34	64.12	20	281.42	11	16	10.5	12.5	14	3.5	12.42	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	10.5	6.5	10	0	0	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Tavor TAR 21	497.5	64.02	21	284	12.5	15	10.5	8	14	3.5	14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	10.5	6.5	10	10	0	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
FAMAE SAF Si	437.82	63.92	22	238.16	12	12	3	17	14	11	5.66	15	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	0	10	5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0
SIG SG552 Co	511	63.66	23	286.5	10.5	13	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	15.5	10	10	6	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK 23E	        519.5	63.55	24	289	3	14	10.5	12.5	19	2	13	10	18.5	15.5	20	10	20	8.5	12.5	10	10	0	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10
XM-8 Compact	470.5	63.52	25	271.75	13.75	16	8	17	14	11	10	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	10	10	2	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	0
FN SCAR-L CQ	516.6	63.29	26	294.8	12	13	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	15.5	10	10	5	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK 416 16"	530.84	63.09	27	301.92	8	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.42	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	10	10	10.5	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10
SIG SG551 SW	532	62.99	28	302	8	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	4.5	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	12	15.5	10	10	10.5	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
Steyr AUG-A3	473.92	62.98	29	271.21	12	15	14.75	12.5	11.75	3.5	16.21	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	6.5	10	10	0	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	0	10
HK MP5KA4	395.5	62.96	30	222	15	16	3	7.5	14	11	2.5	13.5	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0	0


The rise of the bullpups. Now that stocks have a proportional impact, the relative penalties to bullpups were knocked down several points. The P90 goes to #2 and the Magpul breaks the top 20. Something else I noticed is the reappearance of the HK23E.

A couple of AKs are still on top, so here's an analysis of the AK-107 vs. the KAC PDW:
Name	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	APRelod	AtkVol	Reliab					
KAC PDW	4.71	4.71	0	0	0	0	-0.47	-3.18	0	-2.12	-0.18	0	0	0	-0.71	0	0	-0.71	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	-2.36	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0					
			


The PDW is only about 0.3 points behind the AK-107. Its biggest advantages are ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns but it loses about 5 points from having a slower burst and bigger auto penalty, and the AK is still getting 2 point boost for taking the Rifle LAM. Note that the stock bonus for the AK is down to 0.71.

I think the only way to bring up some of the faster weapons would be to further increase the importance of ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns up to about 7/7. The only thing with the variables that I can see to "fix" is the reflex variable, but that's not having too much of an impact here.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310429] Thu, 20 September 2012 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAsmine

 
Messages:321
Registered:May 2011
I'd say the list + variables are close to reaching a point, where they're actually quite good at evaluating the guns.

(imo):
It doesn't make sense too go on adapting list-data again and again, until only "desired" guns show up at the top, because maybe the list also indicates, that some guns simply have unbalanced values. E.g., if a LMG can surpass some MPs in CQB, it means that either a) the LMG is a high-end gund and the MPs are crappy WWII stuff or b) the LMG or the MP should be given slightly changed values. I guess, we allcan agree, that a MP is to be preferred over a LMG when trying to clear a building. One question remains: To which extend is the game capable (and desired) to represent this real-life issue?

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310430] Thu, 20 September 2012 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
Agreed. At some point we should accept the formula and rather look at the offending guns.
One thing we might yet do though is dropping the rifle LAM - 30 tiles is pretty excessive, the normal LAMs are sufficient at close range (although the game could do with an intermediate ... but that's another question Wink )


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310439] Thu, 20 September 2012 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
JAsmine
(imo):
It doesn't make sense too go on adapting list-data again and again, until only "desired" guns show up at the top, because maybe the list also indicates, that some guns simply have unbalanced values.

DepressivesBrot
Agreed. At some point we should accept the formula and rather look at the offending guns.


Right, I fully and completely acknowledge that. I'm not as concerned about individual weapons as I am about our feeling that the weights are accurate. Really, the whole "5/5 importance" thing is just a mental shortcut to get us in the vicinity of the real percentages we want (because it would be too hard to come up with exact percentages for 30 variables at the beginning).

In fact, let's forget the weapon list for a minute and check this out: the table below shows the percentage of the CQB score assigned to each variable by our importance weights. If we think these proportions are right, then the weapon list is just a byproduct of our accurate weights and we aren't being biased.

RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	AtkVol	Reliab	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
10%	10%	6%	4%	2%	4%	2%	6%	2%	4%	2%	0%	10%	0%	2%	0%	0%	1%	6%	6%	0%	6%	0%	2%	0%	0%	0%	6%	8%	2%	4%


First, I just realized that I labeled it "APRelod" before but it's really APsToReloadManually... I hope that wasn't confusing anyone (so I renamed it to MnlRlod). Anyway, the percentages seem fine except for, as DB points out, RifleLAM which I will adjust down to 2%. It's true that the reflex sight variable should be scaled like the stocks are, but I really can't figure out how to do it. Does anyone know how to calculate the AP bonus granted to a weapon by a Reflex Sight?

The only other question left for CQB is: are the 10% values for ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns big enough? From our room-clearing discussion, it seems like ShotsPer4Turns and Readytime should be much more, perhaps even double that. Thoughts?

EDIT: Tais offered the following nugget of wisdom on this topic: "Even if you come around the corner with a .22, if you fire enough rounds fast enough you will most certainly win every encounter."

[Updated on: Thu, 20 September 2012 16:24] by Moderator

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310442] Thu, 20 September 2012 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
sorca_2
The only other question left for CQB is: are the 10% values for ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns big enough? From our room-clearing discussion, it seems like ShotsPer4Turns and Readytime should be much more, perhaps even double that. Thoughts?

EDIT: Tais offered the following nugget of wisdom on this topic: "Even if you come around the corner with a .22, if you fire enough rounds fast enough you will most certainly win every encounter."

Between those two stats, ready time is less important than firing speed: on coming around Tais' corner i most probably have to raise the gun just once, but want to combat as many targets as ever possible.
So if at all, raise Shts/4T relative importance.

(Unless you'd see Tais' corner more like hit and run tactics - look around corner, raise gun, fire like 90% of your APs and hide again behind corner/wall; repeat next turn - then both stats are probably equally important)
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310448] Thu, 20 September 2012 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sam_Hotte
Between those two stats, ready time is less important than firing speed: on coming around Tais' corner i most probably have to raise the gun just once, but want to combat as many targets as ever possible.
So if at all, raise Shts/4T relative importance.
(Unless you'd see Tais' corner more like hit and run tactics - look around corner, raise gun, fire like 90% of your APs and hide again behind corner/wall; repeat next turn - then both stats are probably equally important)

I definitely use that tactic. Either way, it seems to me that CQB requires the most movement of all the roles (sniping hardly requires any), so you have the least amount of APs to work with and therefore weapons that take less AP are highly prized. As a consequence, CQB weapons would also be the best to have in most unplanned interrupt situations.

I suggested a 20%/20% split, and perhaps you'd like a 30%/10% split. Maybe we could compromise at 25%/15%. Very Happy
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310449] Thu, 20 September 2012 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
sorca_2
Sam_Hotte
Between those two stats, ready time is less important than firing speed: on coming around Tais' corner i most probably have to raise the gun just once, but want to combat as many targets as ever possible.
So if at all, raise Shts/4T relative importance.
(Unless you'd see Tais' corner more like hit and run tactics - look around corner, raise gun, fire like 90% of your APs and hide again behind corner/wall; repeat next turn - then both stats are probably equally important)

I definitely use that tactic. Either way, it seems to me that CQB requires the most movement of all the roles (sniping hardly requires any), so you have the least amount of APs to work with and therefore weapons that take less AP are highly prized. As a consequence, CQB weapons would also be the best to have in most unplanned interrupt situations.

But then again, current evaluation is a bit biased against pistols/MPs since we do not appreciate dual wielding but prefer things like stocks and RifleLAM.
Just mentioning it, tho, maybe it might be useful do have another role like IIRC Jasmine mentioned "Sidearm, quick react self defense" or something.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310485] Fri, 21 September 2012 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sam_Hotte
But then again, current evaluation is a bit biased against pistols/MPs since we do not appreciate dual wielding but prefer things like stocks and RifleLAM.
Just mentioning it, tho, maybe it might be useful do have another role like IIRC Jasmine mentioned "Sidearm, quick react self defense" or something.

Based on this, I added a new variable: 2-Handed, and gave it the same weight as damage (moderate importance to CQB). I don't imagine this variable will be very useful to other roles besides Sidearm, but it's true that this was being overlooked--obviously a one-handed weapon has an advantage over an identical 2-handed weapon. In CQB this is especially true because range and accuracy aren't really factors. I downweighted RifleLAM by one more notch.

Using DB's Reflex Bonus calculation in the other thread, I was able to calculate the Reflex/Kobra/ISM bonus and make the variable reflective of the actual AP reduction provided (e.g. bonus from Reflex Sight for CAWS is huge while integral bonus for the P90 is tiny). With experimentation, I was able to determine that giving this revised variable 56% of the weight of the ShotsPer4Turns variable gives equal scaled score values for weapons with equal total ShotsPer4Turns (e.g. Spectre M4 w/o reflex gets same score as Desert Eagle .357 w/Reflex).

I also increased the weight of ReadyTime and ShotsPer4Turns such that ReadyTime accounts for 15% and ShotsPer4Turns and Reflex sight together account for 25%.

I believe the weights are now nearly as accurate as we can make them, and please let me know if you see the need for any further revisions.

With those potentially-final weights, here is the potentially-final list of the top 30 CQB weapons:
Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	Total	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	AtkVol	Reliab	2Handed	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
HK MP7A1	453.82	66.3	1	256.16	17.5	20	4.5	12.5	16.66	17	6.5	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	10	0.5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	0.5	0	0
FN P90	        470.78	62.61	2	260.14	15	20	6	17	18.1	5.5	9.54	1	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	19.5	15.5	0	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	0.5	0	0
KAC PDW	        461.6	62.1	3	260.6	15	20	10.5	12.5	14	11	8	1	19.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	19.6	12.5	0	10	10	1	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	1	0	0
HK MP5KA4	393.5	60.92	4	226	15	16	3	7.5	14	11	2.5	13.5	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	4	0	0
FAMAE SAF	426.5	60.9	5	237.5	13.5	15	4.5	12.5	14	11	7	18.5	4.5	19	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	0	10	10	2.5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	6	0	0
Sawed-Off Sho	374.534	60.83	6	199.017	17.5	6	16	2.5	0.167	18	0.85	20	20	1	1	10	20	3.5	6.5	10	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	10	16	0	0
Magpul PDR-D	435.7	60.79	7	247.6	17.5	20	13	12.5	14	3.5	10.1	1	18.5	6.5	18.5	10	20	19.5	12.5	0	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	0.5	0	0
Beretta 93R	356.5	60.69	8	207.5	17.5	18	3	5	8	19.5	5	17	4.5	1	1	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	0
HK G11	        517.6	60.4	9	285.3	12	13	10.5	8	18	17	15.3	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	13	15.5	0	10	0	0	10	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	8	0	0
Jati-Matic GG	392.5	60.03	10	225.5	17.5	16	4.5	6	14	11	7	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	0	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	4	0	0
SR-2 Veresk	376	60	11	216	17.5	18	4.5	8	14	17	6.5	1	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	16	6.5	10	10	10	0.5	0	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	2	0	0
FAMAE Mini SA	389.4	59.94	12	223.95	14	16	2	6	14	11	0.95	15	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	1.5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	4	0	0
AEK-919K "Kas	398.82	59.87	13	229.16	17.5	19	2	17	14	17	5.66	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	19.5	6.5	10	10	10	0.5	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	1	0	0
HK G36C	        511	59.86	14	287	12.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10	4.5	18.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	20	0	10	10	4	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	7	10	10
HK MP5A4	440	59.45	15	249.25	13.75	15	4.5	17	14	11	7.5	10	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	0	10	10	2	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	5	10	0
Colt M4A1	490.28	59.31	16	279.39	12.5	15	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.14	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	0	10	10	4	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	5	10	10
Glock 18	349.5	59.27	17	204	20	19	3	2.5	8	19.5	2.5	1	2	20	4.5	10	20	18.5	12.5	10	10	10	0	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
FAMAS G2	491.66	59.26	18	280.08	12	15	10.5	12.5	14	3.5	14.33	17	11.5	19	11.5	10	20	8.5	4.75	0	10	10	0	10	0	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	6	10	0
AEK-971   	575.92	59.22	19	332.21	7	13	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	18.5	12.5	0	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	9	0	0
AEK-973 	585.34	59.08	20	330.92	7	9	14	12.5	14	11	12.42	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	6.5	12.5	0	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	13	10	0
Colt M4 Comma	464.1	59.04	21	266.3	13.5	17	10.5	7.5	14	11	10.8	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	8.5	6.5	0	10	10	2.5	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	4	10	10
Steyr TMP	361	58.86	22	208.5	17.5	18	3	5	14	17	4	1	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	16	6.5	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	2	0	0
AK-107   	587.5	58.7	23	333	7	12	10.5	12.5	14	11	12	10	19.5	15.5	20	10	20	8.5	18.5	0	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	9	0	10
AK-108	        590.92	58.62	24	334.71	7	10	10.5	12.5	14	11	12.71	13.5	18.5	15.5	18.5	10	20	8.5	18.5	0	10	10	13	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	11	0	10
FAMAE SAF Sil	435.82	58.59	25	237.16	12	12	3	17	14	11	5.66	15	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	0	0	10	5	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	9	0	0
AN-94 "Abakan	566.64	58.37	26	328.32	5.5	14	10.5	17.66	14	11	11.66	20	20	6.5	18.5	10	20	20	6.5	0	10	10	15.5	10	10	10	0	10	0	10	10	10	10	7	0	0
XM-8 Compact	458.5	58.34	27	265.75	13.75	16	8	17	14	11	10	1	11.5	6.5	11.5	10	20	13	6.5	0	10	10	2	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	4	10	0
Colt M16A1	528.22	58.3	28	302.11	10.5	12	13	12.5	14	11	12.86	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	16	4.75	0	10	10	6	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	10	10	10
HK 416 10"	535.6	58.27	29	304.3	10.5	14	8	12.5	14	11	10.3	1	11.5	15.5	11.5	10	20	13	18.5	0	10	10	6	10	10	10	0	10	0	0	10	10	10	7	10	10
Agram 2000	357.5	58.21	30	208	17.5	17	3	6	14	11	5	1	4.5	15.5	4.5	10	20	18.5	6.5	10	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	4	0	0



Notable new appearances since last time:
HK MP5KA4
Sawed-Off Shotgun
Beretta 93R
Jati-Matic GG-95 PDW
Glock 18
Steyr TMP

You'll notice that the AKs are still hanging around because they're just that good, even if they aren't as fast. Let's compare a lower-ranked SMG, the MP5/40A3 with the AEK-971. The first two rows are their in-game stats and the third row shows the differences in the scaled scores.

Name	       CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	Reliab	2Handed	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
AEK-971    	575.92	59.22	19	15	14.37	30	5	30	20	350	0.3	5	4	6	0	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	0	0
HK MP5/40A3	409.5	56.3	48	7	13.46	27	5	30	20	175	0.273	8	4	9	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Score Diff	-166.42	-2.92	-29	5.1	-3.7	-1.1	0	0	0	-0.4	-0.9	-1.3	0	-1.3	0	0	-0.5	0	0	0	-0.8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2.1	0	0



The MP5/40 makes gains in ReadyTime and Reflex (bigger reflex bonus because it fires slower) but loses in ShotsPer4Turns, Stock (because it readies slower), Damage, Range, Burst Rate and Penalty, Auto Penalty and Reliability (yes, it's more reliable than the HK for whatever reason...). In summary, the MP5/40 has 3 points lower ReadyTime--which is great for CQB--but the AEK-971 is so much better in basically every other respect that it surpasses the MP5/40.

Any thoughts on these?
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310486] Fri, 21 September 2012 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAsmine

 
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Registered:May 2011
I'm not quite sure, but a quick glance at the new list makes me feel like one handed guns are getting a boost which might be too strong.
But...
maybe it's just strange to have a list tell me that a Beretta 93R and a HK G11 should be almost equally good in the same situation... or Glock 18 and Colt M4A1.

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310491] Sat, 22 September 2012 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
JAsmine
I'm not quite sure, but a quick glance at the new list makes me feel like one handed guns are getting a boost which might be too strong.


D'oh, I meant to post the current weights. Here they are:

RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	AtkVol	Reliab	2Handed	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
14.67%	16.14%	4.40%	2.93%	1.47%	2.93%	1.47%	4.40%	1.47%	2.93%	1.47%	0.00%	7.34%	0.00%	1.47%	4.40%	0.00%	0.00%	1.47%	4.40%	4.40%	0.00%	4.40%	0.00%	1.47%	0.00%	0.00%	0.00%	4.40%	9.04%	1.47%	1.47%

Remember that essentially you have to combine ReadyTime with Stocks together and ShotsPer4Turns with Reflex to get their total effects.


So being 1-handed gives a 4.4% bonus currently. We can discuss whether that is too big.

JAsmine
But...
maybe it's just strange to have a list tell me that a Beretta 93R and a HK G11 should be almost equally good in the same situation... or Glock 18 and Colt M4A1.

The situation is you don't have many action points (because you got surprised/ambushed/flanked, got an unplanned interrupt, or you need to charge into a building/take cover), and you've got 1 or 2 enemies at close range.

Here is a comparison of a couple of the weapons you named that I did in the same fashion as the one I did in the last post with real game stats in the first 2 rows and difference in weighted scores in the third row.

93R vs. G11:
Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	Reliab	2Handed	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
Beretta 93R	356.5	60.7	8	1	17.59	25	1	15	12	140	0.375	8			0	0	0	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	0
HK G11	        517.6	60.403	9	9	14.58	30	4	45	16	400	0.75	1	3	7	0	0	2	0	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	8	0	0
Score Diff	161.1	-0.29	1	-4.65	-4.65	1.9	0.51	0.85	-0.42	0.87	0.76	1.31	0.93	1.48	0	0	0.76	-2.54	0	0	0	0	-2.54	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2.54	2.61	0	0


The first thing I notice is that there is less than 0.3 difference between them on a 100-point scale, so it's extremely close. The 93R's biggest benefits are that it readies 8AP faster, fires for 2 less AP per single shot, and it's one-handed. The G11 catches up by being slightly better in virtually every other way.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310493] Sat, 22 September 2012 02:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter

 
Messages:268
Registered:November 2009
Location: Sweden
I think it looks like what you'd expect to see from CQB-list. All the pistols are fully automatic or burst, no HK23 and other than that it's SMG's and faster assault rifles.


The one thing I am curious about is what makes the Sawed-Off so much better than the other shotguns.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310494] Sat, 22 September 2012 03:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
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Headhunter
The one thing I am curious about is what makes the Sawed-Off so much better than the other shotguns.

That's actually pretty straightforward-- its ReadyTime is 1 (average for other shotguns is 14), its AP to fire is 2.5 points faster than the other shotguns, it has no manual reload, and it has burst fire. Because of our CQB criteria, we barely care that it holds 2 rounds and has garbage range. If you think about it, it's a purpose-built CQB weapon and I fully expect it to be terrible in every other role.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310497] Sat, 22 September 2012 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
A similar interesting question is: where are the other shotguns? Let's face it--if the shotguns aren't good at CQB, they certainly aren't going to be good at anything else. It seems to me like the Super-Shorty would stand the best chance, but its score is still really low. Let's look at the Sawed-off vs. the Super Shorty.

Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	AtkVol	Reliab	2Handed	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
Sawed-Off Sho	374.534	60.83	6	1	11.99	36	0	2	14	90	0.5	0					85	0	10	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	10	16	0	0
Super-Shorty	275.28	46.88	211	2	11.5	36	0	4	16	95						9	80	0	10	0	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	10	17	0	0
Diff in Scores	-99.254	-13.94	205.00	-2.11	-1.86	0.08	0.00	0.04	-0.17	0.00	-4.82	-1.61	0.00	0.00	0.00	-4.02	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	-2.54	2.54	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.52	0.00	0.00


So there's a pretty significant 16-point difference between them. The Super-Shorty gets a bogus bonus for having an integrated Foregrip even though it doesn't do anything for it. But it loses 4 points for requiring manual reload and almost 5.5 more points for not having burst capability. The final 4 points lost for speed seem legit.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310510] Sat, 22 September 2012 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
The super shorty also gets a bogus malus for a non-existent Burstpenalty?! Or what does this "-1.61" in the "BrstPen" column mean?
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310514] Sat, 22 September 2012 17:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sam_Hotte
The super shorty also gets a bogus malus for a non-existent Burstpenalty?! Or what does this "-1.61" in the "BrstPen" column mean?

The Sawed-off has burst capability (it can fire both shots at once) but the Super-Shorty can't do that. The -1.61 means that the Super-Shorty loses 1.61 points relative to the Sawed-off for this shortcoming. All of the negative numbers in the third row are disadvantages and all of the positive numbers are advantages. As you can see, the Super Shorty doesn't have any significant advantages besides its bogus Foregrip.

So I guess the question is: is the Super-Shorty being punished too much? It's the second place shotgun but it's way down at #211 out of 307.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310516] Sat, 22 September 2012 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
sorca_2
Sam_Hotte
The super shorty also gets a bogus malus for a non-existent Burstpenalty?! Or what does this "-1.61" in the "BrstPen" column mean?

The Sawed-off has burst capability (it can fire both shots at once) but the Super-Shorty can't do that. The -1.61 means that the Super-Shorty loses 1.61 points relative to the Sawed-off for this shortcoming.

But the Shorty is already punished for not having burst with -4.82 pts in "Brst/AP". I'd think that there is no need to add to the relative loss in a stat that is not applicable to the gun at all.

On the contrary: Burst penalty means "there is a certain chance that 2nd shot in the burst misses more likely as if it was fired as single shot", doesn't it? So if a gun gets punished in firing speed (since it cannot burst), it's relatively better in accuracy/hitting target with 2 shots as the second shot is not affect by burst's recoil.

If you know what i mean ...
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310518] Sat, 22 September 2012 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sam_Hotte
But the Shorty is already punished for not having burst with -4.82 pts in "Brst/AP". I'd think that there is no need to add to the relative loss in a stat that is not applicable to the gun at all.

On the contrary: Burst penalty means "there is a certain chance that 2nd shot in the burst misses more likely as if it was fired as single shot", doesn't it? So if a gun gets punished in firing speed (since it cannot burst), it's relatively better in accuracy/hitting target with 2 shots as the second shot is not affect by burst's recoil.

If you know what i mean ...

Not really, because it's not like the burst-capable weapon must use burst. Imagine two identical weapons, but one has burst capability. Obviously the burst-capable weapon is better because it gives you more options, tactically. The burst penalty variable has to be there to differentiate weapons with better/worse burst capability. For weapon roles that value auto and burst fire (really, everything but sniping), weapons are punished if (1) they have no auto shots (2) they have no auto penalty (3) they have no burst shots (4) they have no burst penalty (weapons that can accept the triggergroup do have a burst penalty, so they aren't punished here) or (5) they can't accept the triggergroup.

To keep this from being overly punitive, the penalty scores were weighted down. With the current CQB weights, burst shots/AP make up 4% of the total score, burst penalty is 1% of the score, auto shots/AP are 3% of the score and auto penalty is 1% of the score. Those percentages seem pretty fair to me. With our weights, for a semi-auto only or pump-action weapon to be decent at CQB, it would have to ready and fire extremely quickly.

Honestly, comparing the Super-Shorty to the Sawed-off probably wasn't a good comparison because (I assume) we'd expect the Sawed-off to be better anyway. I'll try to come up with some other examples to see if pistols or shotguns are being overly punished.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310519] Sat, 22 September 2012 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
sorca_2

weapons are punished if (1) they have no auto shots (2) they have no auto penalty (3) they have no burst shots (4) they have no burst penalty (weapons that can accept the triggergroup do have a burst penalty, so they aren't punished here) or (5) they can't accept the triggergroup.

Why is this?
(2) and (4) do not make any sense to me: No burst/auto penalty is the lowest penalty you can have - and lower is better here. So punishing for not having a certain PENALTY seems contradictory to me.

Furthermore: It's already counted in, if the gun has no burst/auto (= (1),(3),(5)), so weighting the stat that differentiates the precision of bursts (between different burst capable guns) on a gun without burst is a systematical fault in the statistics, IMO.
If - for e.g. technical reasons - it'd be necessary to calculate the burst penalty on every gun, then no burst = no penalty should result in "no penalty at all is best value any gun can have here".

And this is nothing specific to the comparison between sawed off and shorty, but an overall consideration.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310521] Sat, 22 September 2012 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
So let's compare some weapons further down the line.

Name	        CQB Scr	WtCQB	CQBRank	RdyTime	Shts/4T	Damage	Accu	MagSize	RelodAP	Range	Brts/AP	BrstPen	Auto/AP	AutoPen	NoSemiA	MnlRlod	AtkVol	Reliab	2Handed	Flash S	Suppres	Stock	TriggrG	Foregrp	Bipod	MatchS	Launchr	Chokes	Scpe10x	Scope7x	Scope4x	Scope2x	Reflex	MagAdpt	RiflLAM
AK-105	        503.90	55.25	64	13	14.19	29	5	30	20	280	0	6	3	7	0	0	50	3	0	10	10	9	10	10	0	0	0	0	0	10	10	10	9	0	10
Neostead	292.10	43.07	235	9	11.38	39	6	12	14	160	0	0	0	0	0	12	85	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	10	0	0	0	10	17	0	0
Diff in Scores	-211.8	-12.17	171.00	2.54	-7.44	2.66	0.76	-0.68	1.18	-0.31	0.00	-1.48	-0.93	-1.48	0.00	-4.31	0.00	-1.02	0.00	0.00	0.00	-0.76	-2.54	-2.54	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.85	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	4.17	0.00	-0.85



The AK readies slower and does much less damage but fires faster, has auto, and doesn't require manual reload (pump-action). I notice that the AK gets a bonus for being compatible with a Foregrip. While the Neostead can't equip a foregrip, it also doesn't need one because it doesn't have burst or auto capability (maybe this is what Sam_Hotte was trying to tell me before). I'll have to change it so semi-auto only weapons are treated as if they can equip a foregrip.

With reflex sights and stocks added together, the Neostead gets 1.78 points for readying faster but loses 3.28 for firing slower. The Neostead picks up 2.66 points for doing 10 more damage but loses 4.31 for requiring pump-action. The Neostead loses a total of 6.43 points for not being burst- or auto-capable and not being able to equip a triggergroup. Do you think the damage bonus is too small or the auto/burst stuff is too big? Is the pump-action requirement too big?
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310522] Sat, 22 September 2012 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
Lets just face it, shotguns are crap.
I wouldn't keep trying to adjust the formula for them because they just suck without getting a lot of love for their actual stats. As they are right now in the game, they can't do anything a decent SMG or Carbine or PDW or ... anything basically can't do better.

PS:
Are we going to do a sidearm category? Otherwise, we might want to make sure at least the top pistols (5-7, UCP, SR1) get in shouting range of the ranks.


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310523] Sat, 22 September 2012 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:206
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sam_Hotte
No burst/auto penalty is the lowest penalty you can have - and lower is better here. So punishing for not having a certain PENALTY seems contradictory to me.

Perhaps I should have explained that better-- currently the best is a 0 penalty and the worst is no penalty (a blank) and the other penalties are in between. For example, a Glock 17 gets a burst penalty score of 1/20 (it doesn't have burst) while a MP540A3 gets a burst penalty score of 4.5/20 and the G11 gets 20/20.

Sam_Hotte
Furthermore: It's already counted in, if the gun has no burst/auto (= (1),(3),(5)), so weighting the stat that differentiates the precision of bursts (between different burst capable guns) on a gun without burst is a systematical fault in the statistics, IMO.
If - for e.g. technical reasons - it'd be necessary to calculate the burst penalty on every gun, then no burst = no penalty should result in "no penalty at all is best value any gun can have here".

But that wouldn't work because of the following example: 2 identical weapons--one is semi-auto only and the other has auto with a high (really bad) penalty. Maybe think of the CAWS and a similar but semi-auto shotgun. With that system, the semi-auto only weapon would have an advantage because its auto penalty value would be "the best value any gun can have" (20/20)--better than the auto weapon's (4.5/20).

Honestly, it's just something I can't see a way around, but I still don't think these 1% differences we're talking about are huge causes for concern. Maybe we should move on to other roles and we'll have some perspective if we need to come back to this (especially after we do MGs).

DepressivesBrot
Lets just face it, shotguns are crap.
I wouldn't keep trying to adjust the formula for them because they just suck without getting a lot of love for their actual stats. As they are right now in the game, they can't do anything a decent SMG or Carbine or PDW or ... anything basically can't do better.

Agreed. I was just trying to see if anything was "unjustly" punishing the shotguns--I have no problems with "just" punishment, heh.

DepressivesBrot
Otherwise, we might want to make sure at least the top pistols (5-7, UCP, SR1) get in shouting range of the ranks.

Currently the FiveseveN is at #79/307, the UCP is at #88/307, and the SR-1 Gyurza is at #132/307. Let me know if you think any of that sounds strange.

-----
EDIT:
Removing the foregrip penalty for semi-auto only weapons bumped the pistols and shotguns up and the foregrip-enabled weapons down. Those pistols all moved up about 30 places, and the highest-ranked pistol is the SIG P226 SAS.
-----

DepressivesBrot
Are we going to do a sidearm category?

I haven't seen any other arguments for weapon roles, so I think we have room for Sidearm. If we get a better idea, though, it'll be the first one that gets cut.

Here's what we've got:
CQB -- Close range, not many action points to work with, 1 or 2 targets
General Purpose (still needs a better name) -- Medium range, average amount of action points to work with, 1 or 2 targets
MG -- Medium to long range, plenty of action points, more than 2 targets
Sniper/DMR -- Long range, plenty of action points, 1 or 2 targets
Stealth -- Low attack volume, can attach flash suppressor, can attach suppressor, reliability to compensate for suppressor use
**Sidearm -- Same as CQB but with a size restriction?

I'm thinking of working on Sniper next just to change things up. The last thing I'm going to change for CQB is that Foregrip issue (getting rid of Foregrip incompatibility penalty for semi-auto only weapons because they don't actually need one), and that will actually favor the pistols and shotguns anyway.

While I'm doing all of that, let's think about sniping, our variables, and weights. What are the most important stats for sniping? Range? How important is damage? Accuracy? How important is it to be able to equip only a 7x scope instead of 10x?

[Updated on: Sat, 22 September 2012 22:43] by Moderator

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310538] Sun, 23 September 2012 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2031
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
sorca_2
Sam_Hotte
Furthermore: It's already counted in, if the gun has no burst/auto (= (1),(3),(5)), so weighting the stat that differentiates the precision of bursts (between different burst capable guns) on a gun without burst is a systematical fault in the statistics, IMO.
If - for e.g. technical reasons - it'd be necessary to calculate the burst penalty on every gun, then no burst = no penalty should result in "no penalty at all is best value any gun can have here".

But that wouldn't work because of the following example: 2 identical weapons--one is semi-auto only and the other has auto with a high (really bad) penalty. Maybe think of the CAWS and a similar but semi-auto shotgun. With that system, the semi-auto only weapon would have an advantage because its auto penalty value would be "the best value any gun can have" (20/20)--better than the auto weapon's (4.5/20).

I don't see a problem here (but of course i'm not as familiar with the calculations and how does things work as you are). As the semi auto only gun is already punished in (1),(3) and (5) for not being burst/auto-capable, it still shouldn't be punished in stats that do not affect non-burst/non-auto.

Quote:
Honestly, it's just something I can't see a way around, but I still don't think these 1% differences we're talking about are huge causes for concern. Maybe we should move on to other roles and we'll have some perspective if we need to come back to this (especially after we do MGs).

ACK. Let's leave it as currently is ATM.

Quote:
DepressivesBrot
Lets just face it, shotguns are crap.
I wouldn't keep trying to adjust the formula for them because they just suck without getting a lot of love for their actual stats. As they are right now in the game, they can't do anything a decent SMG or Carbine or PDW or ... anything basically can't do better.

Agreed. I was just trying to see if anything was "unjustly" punishing the shotguns--I have no problems with "just" punishment, heh.

Very true: Shotguns are crap in the game; even if i do use an IMP having expert hunter trait, shotguns are hardly ever used at all.

Quote:
While I'm doing all of that, let's think about sniping, our variables, and weights. What are the most important stats for sniping? Range? How important is damage? Accuracy? How important is it to be able to equip only a 7x scope instead of 10x?

In OCTH range is one of the most important stats ever, so yes, for the sniping role i see it as top requirement. As to scopes, i'm not sure, since i have not yet really gotten behind how things work if you enable headrock's dynamic aiming thingies in the ini.
Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310541] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAsmine

 
Messages:321
Registered:May 2011
Concerning the possible "sidearm" category:

Basically, this category is very similar to CQB. But the differences are, that it's vital for a sidearm to be of small size, because in NIV, you want the sling slot to be available for the primary weapon when switching to the sidearm. So, the sidearm must fit into some other pocket/holster.
Furthermore, speed is euqally important. Speed includes ready-AP, firing-AP, aiming levels (less levels = faster) etc.

When do you need a sidearm?
- Usually for your guys who have a slow firing primary weapon or (for NCTH) a weapon with a high magnification scop who can't hit shit at closest range.
- Primarily as self defense weapon (not supposed to be used for agressive tactics)
- When an enemy appears in front of your sniper who has only few APs left after he has fired his sniper rifle

Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310542] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
We're still only regarding OCTH, so aim levels don't come into play.
Otherwise, yes.
Speed >>> rest. Additionally, in this category we might actually include size (need to check what fits a holster or misc pocket) and weight (especially think of the female snipers and gunners around instead of Bull and Grizzly, easily hitting cap there).


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310544] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I'd also put additional attention on the magsize and possible ammo types. For example, the 5-7 has a magsize of 20, which is all you'd ever need for a sidearm, and it has ammo superior to normal ap ammo, because it eats away armour.


Re: Presentation: Weapon Effectiveness Scales on 6 Dimensions[message #310545] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3777
Registered:July 2009
It doesn't actually eat armor, that's what the depleted uranium ammo does (for some weird reason ...), it's just really good at penetrating it.


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