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1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314623] Tue, 22 January 2013 23:20 Go to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Registered:August 2011
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1.13 Stock Data Overhaul (SDO)

What is it?
This project originally started as an attempt to improve the NCTH performance in the base 1.13 mod by re-balancing the items and adding a couple of new items/features. However integration into stock 1.13 without interfering with OCTH/different balancing approaches proved too difficult, so it grew into a own separate mod instead.
By now other aspects like maps and pre-placed loot were extensively modified, so it can be seen as a further development of the stock 1.13 mod, which mainly serves "just" as a new feature dump today.

However if you are looking for an extensive item mod with hundreds of new items you won't likely get happy with it, as only a relatively small number of genuinely new items was added. The general policy is to add more only in small doses, if they help improving the game balance or to flesh out new features.

It's mainly based on "unstable" SVN revisions (sub mods for the Stable Release 2014 also are available, but not the focus). Because of the nature of these revisions you will trade bugs or other annoyances with access to brand new features, you are basically signing up as a beta tester (however these are in general quite playable contrary to what the term unstable otherwise might suggest).

Download/Installation

Direct Method
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SVN Method
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To play open the INI Editor and Select INI-File: Data-SDO\Ja2_Options.INI (or open the file directly with Notepad++ and co.) (and modify the options to your wishes. What options you shouldn't likely change is specified further below). All options are centrally controlled here, even for the SDO map sub-mods. Then you have to choose the map sub-mod

vfs_config.Modname+SDO_Default_Maps.ini
or
vfs_config.Modname+SDO_Scaling_Map_Loot.ini

Scaling loot means the pre-placed items on the maps will change over the course of the game, mainly dependent on progress, instead of staying static,. This means if you visit a sector late in the game it will contain "better" items with higher coolness than if you would enter the sector early in the game for the first time.

Future Updates
Toggle Spoiler
FAQ
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Credits/Thanks

wil473 - for some xml-data and images from Urban Chaos.
smeagol - for some images from Aimnas.
Cyborg - for more realistic recoil values.

[Updated on: Sun, 25 January 2015 06:09]




WiP: SDO, a rebalance mod for the base 1.13 map, Arulco Revisited and Wildfire 6.07.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314624] Tue, 22 January 2013 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Features

General Weapon Rebalance
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Weapon Attachment Overhaul
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Item Progression
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Scaling Map Loot
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New Ammo Types
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Armour/Camouflage
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Attachment Points
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Load Bearing Equipment
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[Updated on: Sun, 25 January 2015 06:13]

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314625] Tue, 22 January 2013 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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New Game Settings
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Known Issues
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For general questions about NCTH these 2 threads are the place to go:

New CTH system - Presentation
New CTH System - The Formula

They are outdated in some parts, but still useful. If you still have questions about it, feel free to ask here.

Available Arsenal Options
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IMP Starting Gear:

Toggle Spoiler
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[Updated on: Sun, 25 January 2015 06:32]

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314703] Thu, 24 January 2013 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
elenhil is currently offline elenhil

 
Messages:64
Registered:June 2008
Hire does it correlate to MAM and wil473's own attempts to rebalance weapon progression?

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Corporal
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314704] Thu, 24 January 2013 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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I don't know, i didn't have a look at this part of their work while i designed my xlsx-sheet. What do you specifically mean?

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314789] Sat, 26 January 2013 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hazapuza

 
Messages:262
Registered:February 2009
Location: Finland
This looks interesting, and a good way to try out AR, as you pointed out.

It's been ages since I played with bog standard 1.13, so I don't really know/remember how screwed up the balance actually is. But if you ask me, it's about time someone decided to do something to correct that issue.

I'll be (or at least trying to be) posting some thoughts on how this compares with wil473's work.

Edit: Not sure what's causing this. When switching Scully's firemode to underbarrel GL, I can't switch back to single or auto fire, unless I remove the grenade.

[Updated on: Sat, 26 January 2013 16:15] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314807] Sat, 26 January 2013 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Hazapuza
Not sure what's causing this. When switching Scully's firemode to underbarrel GL, I can't switch back to single or auto fire, unless I remove the grenade.

That's working as intended, they got the new 33554432. You are supposed to load grenades when you actually need them with most underbarrel grenade launchers, not ahead of that point.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314810] Sun, 27 January 2013 00:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hazapuza

 
Messages:262
Registered:February 2009
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Thanks for clearing that up. Obviously I'm not familiar with UGL use, but it does strike me as a bit odd to not keep the launcher loaded in combat. After all, they usually have their own trigger groups and safeties to prevent accidents.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314811] Sun, 27 January 2013 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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Even if there's a SOP in (some?) forces to never load a GL ahead of time:
1)We are mercs, we don't care.
2)There's no technical reason that prevents you from shooting.
3)Hell, 2 is the whole point why UGLs were invented and rifle grenades fell out of favor (except with the frenchies)
4)33554432 triggers the full RG behavior, including taking a round to fire.

Edit: Do the MGL and the Thumper still work btw?

[Updated on: Sun, 27 January 2013 00:23] by Moderator

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Captain

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314819] Sun, 27 January 2013 02:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Basicly i wanted to give all those standalone grenade launchers an edge over the underbarrel variants with the ability to load ahead of use time. Maybe i think about reverting it again (if enough object it^^).

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #314820] Sun, 27 January 2013 05:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Uriens is currently offline Uriens

 
Messages:345
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I'm with depri on this one.
Also, standalone are useful if you have a gun that can't mount underbarrel version or you use another attachment that prevents it. No need to force a player this way.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315006] Thu, 31 January 2013 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
krux is currently offline krux

 
Messages:62
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This is a very good and needed initiative. Unfortunately I won't have time to test it in awhile, but as far as I can see it seems very promising.
I like the penalties on scopes and more even handling values across weapons, as this attribute has a very dominant effect on aiming.

Do scopes give a penalty to recoil control and Ready Time? That would seem like very reasonable penalties for using scopes to me.

Edit: Default attachments as actual attachments is very nice! Makes it easier to mod too.

Overall it surprises me that this hasn't generated more interest.

[Updated on: Thu, 31 January 2013 19:37] by Moderator

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Corporal
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315008] Thu, 31 January 2013 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jaredh

 
Messages:8
Registered:June 2006
Location: Dallas Tx
I've read your changelist 5-6 times now, and while most of it sounds good (anything I don't specifically mention below falls into the good category, which you'll find is most of your list), a few pieces make me not want it in my game.

It seems like this is going to water down the weapons even more and make them more indistinguishable from each other (beyond their picture). 1.13 is bad enough for this already. Moving all the weapons in a class together is going the wrong way IMHO. For instance:

- There are plenty of pistols that have terrible default aim, and others with great. Your default stats suggest a pistol is a pistol and there isn't any significant difference. I can say the same thing for all the other categories...
- The general ability to aim accurately between a pistol and an SMG is reversed IMHO. SMGs don't have the accuracy of a pistol in my experience....at least not bare bones ones.
- It gets even worse with Rifles over SMGs/Pistols. Rifles are much more accurate bare bones.

I'm assuming you are including certain sights in with you scopes, otherwise you should be...plenty of advanced sights increase aim noticeably.

As for your aiming levels on the scopes, I don't agree with that entirely either. You are leaving out the x4 level it appears completely, and lumping its accuracy in with x2 scopes. It entirely eliminates any desire to pay extra for a x4 scope, or even add the weight, since it isn't going to give any advantage.


[*]Most former "internal" attachments are now actual ones; this is especially important for the new folding stocks.

- What does this mean?

[*]Most assault rifles lost the ability to mount small 2x scopes and 7x battle scopes. No more *Jack-of-all-Trades*.

- This is probably the thing that bothers me the most. I see no justification for it. There is plenty of real-world justification for a guy with a 2x scope on his AR and a the guy next to him with a 7x with the same gun, and the next guy ridding the middle with a 4x.

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Private
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315064] Fri, 01 February 2013 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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@ krux

Scopes have the penalties to the following properties:

PercentReadyTimeAPReduction
PercentAPReduction
PercentTunnelVision
PercentCounterForceAccuracy

Scopes with Magnification over 4x additionally have:

PercentHandling
PercentTargetTrackingSpeed
........

jaredh
There are plenty of pistols that have terrible default aim, and others with great. Your default stats suggest a pistol is a pistol and there isn't any significant difference. I can say the same thing for all the other categories...
As it was just a presentation, the info given is limited. For example actually there are 3 "main groups" for pistols:
Toggle Spoiler
You are right, within a group the differences are small, the biggest one are the caliber properties. Unfortunatly i don't see much room for changes, that's why i excluded many from Reduced Arsenal.

jaredh
As for your aiming levels on the scopes, I don't agree with that entirely either. You are leaving out the x4 level it appears completely, and lumping its accuracy in with x2 scopes. It entirely eliminates any desire to pay extra for a x4 scope, or even add the weight, since it isn't going to give any advantage.
Where did you get these informations?

jaredh
Most former "internal" attachments are now actual ones; this is especially important for the new folding stocks.

- What does this mean?
For example in the "old" 1.13 data the stats of the stocks were directly on the item/weapon; the designer assumed they were folded/retracted most or all of the time. This had the disadvantage that all these weapons were far worse from the start than all the others with fixed stock of each weapon category.

With the changes the stock is a separate item, attached to a weapon. In the default state it gives no penalties and can be folded only if required, with an item transformation. This also makes modding easier as you only have to edit a handfull items instead of a large mass of individual weapons.

jaredh
Most assault rifles lost the ability to mount small 2x scopes and 7x battle scopes. No more *Jack-of-all-Trades*.

- This is probably the thing that bothers me the most. I see no justification for it. There is plenty of real-world justification for a guy with a 2x scope on his AR and a the guy next to him with a 7x with the same gun, and the next guy ridding the middle with a 4x.
As with most attachments this is based onto gameplay/balancing reasons, not real life. If you absolutly can't stand it, you can change the Attachment Points in your Items.xml.

[Updated on: Fri, 01 February 2013 22:09] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315066] Fri, 01 February 2013 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter is currently offline Headhunter

 
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Strohmann
jaredh
Most assault rifles lost the ability to mount small 2x scopes and 7x battle scopes. No more *Jack-of-all-Trades*.

- This is probably the thing that bothers me the most. I see no justification for it. There is plenty of real-world justification for a guy with a 2x scope on his AR and a the guy next to him with a 7x with the same gun, and the next guy ridding the middle with a 4x.
As with most attachments this is based onto gameplay/balancing reasons, not real life. If you absolutly can't stand it, you can change the Attachment Points in your Items.xml.


But aren't attachments based more on real life than balance as it is? And isn't that to give the player the freedom to determine which weapons to use for different ranges, rather than the game arbitrarily determining that?

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315067] Sat, 02 February 2013 00:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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Headhunter
Strohmann
As with most attachments this is based onto gameplay/balancing reasons, not real life. If you absolutly can't stand it, you can change the Attachment Points in your Items.xml.
But aren't attachments based more on real life than balance as it is? And isn't that to give the player the freedom to determine which weapons to use for different ranges, rather than the game arbitrarily determining that?
IMO the optimal state to strive for is when attachments are actually balanced instead of annoying the player with 'Why the f does scope x fit but scope y doesn't?! - Because [arbitrary balance decision]'
Can you put a big hulking 10x scope on a UMP? Yes. Does it make sense? No. Which style of thinking should be encouraged?
[ ] Slap biggest possible scope on rifle - modder determined it's the best for gun Z.
[ ] Think about it and probably use a lower powered scope because it works better for the intended role.

Bonus: Fewer attachment points - less work for the modder.

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Captain

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315071] Sat, 02 February 2013 05:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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One of the goals of NCTH was to give each weapon a role and purpose.

If one allows to many scopes (in combination with the old laser stats) like in the stock 1.13 data this typically lead to the situation that you were inclined just to carry the same weapon (insert universal assault rifle of your choice etc.) and only swap the scopes according to the current tactical requirements.

Also i'm not a fan of giving the player access to questionable or at worse nonsensical choices just for the sake of players freedom. That reeks of laziness from the modder for me.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315076] Sat, 02 February 2013 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter is currently offline Headhunter

 
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DepressivesBrot
Headhunter
But aren't attachments based more on real life than balance as it is? And isn't that to give the player the freedom to determine which weapons to use for different ranges, rather than the game arbitrarily determining that?

IMO the optimal state to strive for is when attachments are actually balanced instead of annoying the player with 'Why the f does scope x fit but scope y doesn't?! - Because [arbitrary balance decision]'
Can you put a big hulking 10x scope on a UMP? Yes. Does it make sense? No. Which style of thinking should be encouraged?
[ ] Slap biggest possible scope on rifle - modder determined it's the best for gun Z.
[ ] Think about it and probably use a lower powered scope because it works better for the intended role.

Bonus: Fewer attachment points - less work for the modder.


Isn't that what we have now? Sniper Rifles can't mount 2x or 4x scopes, or reflex sights. Some can mount a PSO-1 but the clear and vast majority are limited to 7x or more times magnification.

Same is true for submachineguns and machine pistols. Only a handful can mount anything with more than 2x magnification. Now, I concede that weapons like the G36C or the SCAR-WP CQC have no particular use for a 7x scope and shouldn't be able to mount one. The AKS-74U can't mount a PSO-3 for instance and that makes complete sense.

The problem lies in weapons like the Steyr AUG-A3, the HK 417 or the SIG 550 for that matter. Weapons that have the speed necessary for CQB and the range for fighting over distance. Weapons that are in fact, jacks-of-all-trades.

I agree to some extent with the intent, a FAL has no reason for a 2x and a Micro Galil has no reason for a 7x, but there are still ~20 or so assault rifles that could be used for both CQB as well as for extended ranges. How would you decide which gets the 2x and which gets the 7x when they have a similar stats? This is the arbitrary part that I don't like.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315162] Mon, 04 February 2013 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Small Update:

- various minor xml-tweaks
- replaced most placeholder images
- overhauled EnemyGunChoices again, created separate list for elite enemies and - militia

Download and overwrite everything as usual. Waiting for feedback then.

[Updated on: Mon, 04 February 2013 19:36] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315339] Tue, 12 February 2013 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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new update: *link*
  • overhauled EnemyItemchoices, created separate lists for elites, regulars and admins. Militia draw their gear from the same pool (admin -> green etc.)
  • overhauled IMPItemchoices again: items based on attributes/physical stats, LBE-Gear based on major trait, in general many new additions to traits
  • reordered the itemsizes of the weapons, so there is more room for size changes by attachments like folding stocks.

    - size 7-10 fit in combat pack, gun sling and general large slots
    - size 11 fits in gun sling and general large slots
    - size 12 fits only in general large slots now
    - suppressors/barrel extender +1 size, retracted stocks -1 size, folded stocks -2 size

    - carbine ARs, SMGs size 9
    - regular sized weapons size 10
    - size 11 for large weapons like sniper or battle rifles
    - oversized weapons like lmgs or anti-material rifles belong in 12

    In general the result should be that you have to rely onto (attaching and) transforming the stocks more if you want to transport big weapons in other places as your backpack or hands.
  • Splitted FMJ ammo type into 4 subgroups with different penetration values

    old - was 0.75 for everything
    Weak Penetration (0.Cool - pistol catridges
    Medium Penetration (0.7) - 5.56x45mm
    Good Penetration (0.65) - 7.62x39mm, 6.8x43mm
    Excellent Penetration (0.6) - 7.62x51mm+
  • Enabled rod & spring for most weapons again, but excluded it from access to the enemy army, so it's penalty doesn't fuck them over. Also added match and tracer ammo variants for 6.8x43mm. With new own c-mag adapter, more ammo types* and increased penetration it should be finally competitive with 5.56x45mm, so i lifted the battle scope restriction for some high coolness 5.56x45mm weapons.

    The Assault Rifle balancing pattern is now:

    - Steyr Aug variants: scope magnification 2x
    - G36 Non-RAS variants: integral reflex scope 2-3x
    - Mass of the regular ARs: ACOG/Reflex Scope/PSO-1 3-4x
    - XM-8 Sharpshooter, FN SCAR-L SV, SIG SG550, Diemaco C7A2, HK 416 20", HK G11: ACOG/Reflex Scope 3-4x, battle scope 5-7x
    - 6.8x43mm/7.62x51mm caliber AR: ACOG/Reflex Scope 3-4x, battle scope 5-7x (exceptions: FR Ordnance MC51, FN SCAR-H CQC, FN SCAR-68 CQC)

*reordering could cause save game compatibility issues for this ammo type (?)

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315381] Wed, 13 February 2013 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Btw, are you working on (some of) the changes discussed in the Realistic ranges on bigmaps (Aimnas Christmas release) - thread like the scope scaling factor?

I was thinking about releasing an experimental CTHConstants.ini next time with something like:

NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE changed from 70 to 150
AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE changed from -4.0 to -6.0 or -8.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_MIN_ERROR changed from 0.2 to 0.35
NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE changed from 70 to 75

and halfing all scope mag factors and projection factors as compensation (could become tight with the ranges of scope 2x and the lasers). With your changes at least the first part wouldn't be problematic and confusing for players.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315383] Wed, 13 February 2013 18:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CapnJack is currently offline CapnJack

 
Messages:56
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Will you eventually be changing/rebalancing starting gear around the mod's changes or no?

[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2013 18:48] by Moderator

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Corporal
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315384] Wed, 13 February 2013 19:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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uhm, i changed it with the last update, the list is just some posts above (IMPItemchoices = starting gear for your IMP(s)). If you don't like something about it, post the specifics and your reasoning.

I will include a optional version with higher coolness gear in the next release.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315389] Wed, 13 February 2013 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CapnJack is currently offline CapnJack

 
Messages:56
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No, I'm talking about AIM and MERC starting gear not IMP choices. Sorry for not being more specific earlier.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2013 20:38] by Moderator

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Corporal
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315406] Wed, 13 February 2013 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Ah, my bad.

Well, a complete overhaul is outside the scope of this mod, but i could exchange the weapons and ammunition with some of similar coolness.

Before i do that it would be helpful if someone could post the formular with that the original item prices were calculated. Also some feedback about the current coolness distribution of the weapons could help at first.

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315407] Thu, 14 February 2013 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1962
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
About prices you might consider getting in touch with ClarkeW and incorporate his price balancing:
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/311554/Weapon_Price_Economy_Balance_M.html

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Sergeant Major
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315643] Sat, 23 February 2013 07:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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new update:

If you don't play with Arulco Revisited, delete the folder Data-AR.
  • altered most A.I.M. and M.E.R.C. starting gear: more automatic weapons, pistol usage reduced, some scoped weapons for expensive mercs, more warsaw pact weapons. Deadly Games Mercs are not included; i could take a look at their gear in the future, but that's pretty low on my priority list.
  • weapon prices overhauled; coolness is the main factor for price differences now
  • global accuracy buff for assault rifles, some fixes
  • after experimenting with the HeavyGun-Tag, it seems indeed to work only in standing stance as likely intended, despite the eye-icon not changing if crouching or prone; but it prevents any scope toggle behaviour. In this state it would only have use for maybe 2-3 weapons on my list, so i have decided to add some of the penalties firing-from-the-hip would normally apply to the integral and heavy bipod instead.

[Updated on: Sun, 08 March 2026 05:54] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315826] Fri, 01 March 2013 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deleted.

 
Messages:2639
Registered:December 2012
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What about doubling APsToReload?
Read about it somewhere here on forum and it seems to be good idea.
Main reason: more planning needed, more need for second gun/pistol.

OICW and XM25 will be nearly useless if not able to fire as regular grenade launchers.
And for underbarrel grenade launchers i think that we should keep their original behavior: load once - fire when needed.

Seems to be a good mod/overhaul, will try it once i finish the queen in my current campaign.

Does anybody know, CTHConstants.ini applies only for NCTH?

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Lieutenant

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315829] Fri, 01 March 2013 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:690
Registered:July 2008
CTHConstants.ini only applies for NCTH.

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First Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #315978] Tue, 05 March 2013 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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new Update:   

If you don't play with Arulco Revisited, delete the folder Data-AR.

Warning: exe 5869 onward breaks save game compatibility! If you don't want to do that, use the 5862 exe and move Pockets.xml + PocketPopups.xml from the folder Items to Inventory and use a older Ja2_Options.INI.

  • overhauled existing lbe gear
  • added some MOLLE pouches that can be attached to lbe gear vest, some high coolness vests and leg carrier rig
  • added new pocket types, used item sizes increased from 34 to 50
........
Sevenfm
What about doubling APsToReload?
Read about it somewhere here on forum and it seems to be good idea.
Main reason: more planning needed, more need for second gun/pistol.
The costs are already higher than stock 1.13.

Quote:
And for underbarrel grenade launchers i think that we should keep their original behavior: load once  - fire when needed.
The original behaviour is restored since some updates.


[Updated on: Sun, 08 March 2026 05:55] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316072] Fri, 08 March 2013 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
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Small Update:

  • updated the starting weaponry of the remaining Deadly Games Mercs
  • restored Spooky as A.I.M.-Merc with proper biography and text files

[Updated on: Sun, 08 March 2026 05:55] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316199] Mon, 11 March 2013 23:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince7403 is currently offline Vince7403

 
Messages:142
Registered:February 2012
I've had a chance to play a few sectors on this mod + AR and I suspect something is wrong. My mercs only seem to make about 10% of their shots, while the enemy makes about 1/3 or so. I tested it somewhat systematically for a while and found that my 85 marksmanship IMP still only makes about 10% of her shots from two tiles away, no matter how many aim levels I spend.

Am I misunderstanding the NCTH system? Did I break the shooting logic somehow? Or am I just crazy?

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Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316210] Tue, 12 March 2013 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
I need more informations to judge that. With which weapons are you firing at which range? Which attachments are present on the weapon? How high are experience, marksmanship, wisdom and dexterity of the shooter?

With default settings i had around 25-30% shots hitting for soldiers with assault rifles/submaschine guns, ~20% with machine guns (always full auto) and 40%+ with snipers on average according to the employment stats during the last full playthrough.

Early game when your mercs are relatively weak stat- and experience-wise, weapons are lacking range plus accuracy and high magnifying scopes are absent one part of your squad has to suppress the enemy with heavy autofire, buckshot ammo or frag grenades and others have to move closer for the kill. Or use the structure of the map to lure the enemy into close quarter combat or fight during the night.

Settings you can manipulate:

CTHConstants.ini

DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE - explanation speaks for itself
BASE_DIFFICULTY_xyz/AIM_DIFFICULTY_yxz - controls bonuses to chance to hit for the AI on that respective difficulty
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION - lower limit for the AI when exceeding nominal weapon range

Items.xml

Another method is to globally increase the bonus to aiming cap of the iron sights present on nearly all weapons (index 1700-1709, tag ).


With all tweaking i have to warn you to resist the temptation to make the game too easy^^. After all one of the premises of NCTH was to abandon the OCTH - "Headshot Game".

[Updated on: Tue, 12 March 2013 12:07] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316211] Tue, 12 March 2013 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince7403 is currently offline Vince7403

 
Messages:142
Registered:February 2012
Since I posted that, I did a clean install of AR+NCTH overhaul and now the game doesn't feel so unfair anymore - enemy bullets don't feel like merc-seeking missiles and I'm making a modest but believable fraction of my shots. I guess I may have broken something earlier, but I probably destroyed any opportunity to figure out exactly what or how.

I've encountered a real bug though - firing a 40mm HE grenade causes a crash every time. It doesn't happen in any other mod or on base 1.13, and it occurs for all exes I have newer than 5894.

The exact error:
Assertion Failure [Line 335 in file Strategic Town Loyalty.cpp]

[Updated on: Wed, 13 March 2013 04:28] by Moderator

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Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316242] Wed, 13 March 2013 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Parkan is currently offline Parkan

 
Messages:432
Registered:April 2010
Location: Russia,Sevastopol

Update exe to 5917-bug will fix.

Strohmann,
Very intresting overhaul,indeed.If you don't mind i have maybe intresting proposition.How about to make all LBE gear with custom functions?Stock 1.13 mod have not much LBE gear and such LBe gear player can obtain almost without any troubles.What i suggest:Nerf all LBE gear with some slots(for example remove 1-3 random slots from Lbe gear like ammo pockets,tiny pockets etc),but for that player can make some custom edits with modular Lbe pockets.Plus add to LBe gear some bonuses\penalties with camofluage\AP penalties or something like that.So player starts with really low slots in lbe gear but he can upgrade those lbe gear with modular gear to increase his inventory.


Or make new LBE gear like:Modular LBe Vest(base pockets no more 1-3 slots,other pockets\slots for modular lbe gear),Modular LBE combat pack(1 big slot,1 small slot other closed slots can be customized with modular gear),Modular backpack(1-2 big slots,1-2 small slots,other slots\pockets can be customized with modular gear)

So what do you think about that?

[Updated on: Sat, 16 March 2013 12:53] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316700] Fri, 29 March 2013 00:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
krux is currently offline krux

 
Messages:62
Registered:June 2011
Ok, I'll probably have some time to try this weekend. While I haven't tried it yet I really appreciate that someone finally tries to improve the balancing of the game, and I feel this mod ought to get more attention and feedback.

Should I use the exe in your "Newest Update" package or the newest from depri's archive? I got the latest SCI so I guess the exe in your file might be outdated?

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Corporal
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316716] Fri, 29 March 2013 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erzengel is currently offline Erzengel

 
Messages:15
Registered:February 2013
Location: Germany, "Federal Village...
Strohmann

jaredh
- What does this mean?
For example in the "old" 1.13 data the stats of the stocks were directly on the item/weapon; the designer assumed they were folded/retracted most or all of the time. This had the disadvantage that all these weapons were far worse from the start than all the others with fixed stock of each weapon category.

With the changes the stock is a separate item, attached to a weapon. In the default state it gives no penalties and can be folded only if required, with an item transformation. This also makes modding easier as you only have to edit a handfull items instead of a large mass of individual weapons.


The effects of folding and collapsible stocks are somehow overestimated in the game. Collapsible stocks are used to adapt the weapon length to the shooters arms and the thickness of the body armor. Therefore they make make the handling and the aiming/shooting of the gun easier/faster. You only change the length of the stock if You get new body armor, otherwise it will always stay at the same length. You can also collapse it for the transportation in a vehicle or in a backpack. So the effects of a collapsible stock should be easier handling/shooting and a punishment for pulling it out of a combat pack slot during battle. No punishment for taking it from the sling.

Folding stocks should only be folded while riding on a vehicle with tight space or while doing some work where the long rifle is a disturbance. When You are on patrol You always have Your stock unfolded to react faster to hostile situations.
There is a big difference in the construction of folding stocks. The skeleton style, like it is used on the G36 and used as image for the attachment in the game, should betreated like a conventional stock and only reduce the item size for packing it into a backpack. There should be additional AP costs for taking it out of a backpack during combat.
I don't know if the AKs and other ARs/SMGs with the folding stock made from bended steel wire are more difficult to shoot than their versions with a fixed buttstock.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 March 2013 14:45] by Moderator

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Private
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316744] Fri, 29 March 2013 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Parkan
[..]If you don't mind i have maybe intresting proposition.How about to make all LBE gear with custom functions?Stock 1.13 mod have not much LBE gear and such LBe gear player can obtain almost without any troubles.What i suggest:Nerf all LBE gear with some slots(for example remove 1-3 random slots from Lbe gear like ammo pockets,tiny pockets etc),but for that player can make some custom edits with modular Lbe pockets.Plus add to LBe gear some bonuses\penalties with camofluage\AP penalties or something like that.So player starts with really low slots in lbe gear but he can upgrade those lbe gear with modular gear to increase his inventory.


Or make new LBE gear like:Modular LBe Vest(base pockets no more 1-3 slots,other pockets\slots for modular lbe gear),Modular LBE combat pack(1 big slot,1 small slot other closed slots can be customized with modular gear),Modular backpack(1-2 big slots,1-2 small slots,other slots\pockets can be customized with modular gear)

So what do you think about that?
Current LBE Situation:
Toggle Spoiler
The lbe gear vest is more or less close to what you want with the "Modular LBE Vest" as it has up to 5 small + 1 medium slot for modular pouches. The lrak saw-, ultility-, russian 106-, flecktarn-, tt pistol- and the police vest have 3 small + 1 medium slot for modular pouches. For combat packs and backpacks i couldn't find meaningfull new pocket types that were worth adding to the 3 current, so no large MOLLE pouches for them. Have you some ideas regarding that?
If you want something of that or the other lbe gear changed or added, please post the specifics. I didn't want to add penalties or bonuses because i reserved them for the armors and in case of lbe vests camouflage it seems to override the armored vest bonus.

krux
Ok, I'll probably have some time to try this weekend. While I haven't tried it yet I really appreciate that someone finally tries to improve the balancing of the game, and I feel this mod ought to get more attention and feedback.

Should I use the exe in your "Newest Update" package or the newest from depri's archive? I got the latest SCI so I guess the exe in your file might be outdated?

There are 4 possible reasons in my opinion:

1. The mod is not very old, it takes some time for full playthroughs and feedback.
2. Dislike of NCTH.
3. The mod is shitty/redundant/not matching my preferences etc. and not worth commenting (:trollface:).
4. The "advanced" users, that are more likely to test unstable versions, don't "waste" their time with relativly small overhauls like mine and instead go directly for the full-blown conversation mods like AFS, Aimnas etc that match their tastes more (perfectly reasonable). The users that just play stock 1.13 are probably less inclined to play unstable versions and wait for the next stable release. All these factors likely result in a limited pool of testers.

You can use the newest unstable exe, as long as it not denoted as save-game-breaking in his thread. I try to stay up-to-date with most important xml-changes, but i won't post a new update every time the exe version changes^^.


Erzengel
The effects of folding and collapsible stocks are somehow overestimated in the game. Collapsible stocks are used to adapt the weapon length to the shooters arms and the thickness of the body armor. Therefore they make make the handling and the aiming/shooting of the gun easier/faster. You only change the length of the stock if You get new body armor, otherwise it will always stay at the same length. You can also collapse it for the transportation in a vehicle or in a backpack. So the effects of a collapsible stock should be easier handling/shooting and a punishment for pulling it out of a combat pack slot during battle. No punishment for taking it from the sling.

Folding stocks should only be folded while riding on a vehicle with tight space or while doing some work where the long rifle is a disturbance. When You are on patrol You always have Your stock unfolded to react faster to hostile situations.
There is a big difference in the construction of folding stocks. The skeleton style, like it is used on the G36 and used as image for the attachment in the game, should betreated like a conventional stock and only reduce the item size for packing it into a backpack. There should be additional AP costs for taking it out of a backpack during combat.
I don't know if the AKs and other ARs/SMGs with the folding stock made from bended steel wire are more difficult to shoot than their versions with a fixed buttstock.
Toggle Spoiler

I think the ap costs are handled on a per-pocket-type base and can't be modified by items; exception is the rifle sling bonus, but that seems to be handled game internally (? , ask flugente or someone similar). So not feasible (at the moment).

I know some mods use item transformations to change to whole item and weapon image, but i have decided against it. On one hand i still have the mad dream that at least parts of this mod could be integrated in the main trunk some day. For this eventuality using transformations for every case would be unadvisable for stock 1.13 as i would have to make 1-2 copies for most weapons, blowing the item pool out of proportion. Not to mention all the new images i would have to steal/create for all these weapon copies. Also with the inclusion of firing-from-the-hip feature from Sandro the whole folding/unfolding mechanic became mostly obsolete in combat in my opinion.


[Updated on: Fri, 29 March 2013 22:15] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316751] Fri, 29 March 2013 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Parkan is currently offline Parkan

 
Messages:432
Registered:April 2010
Location: Russia,Sevastopol

Strohmann,

If it possible to made all LBE VESt in game customisible?If Sniper\hunter vest has 2 closed pockets add ability to player mod this pockets so no closed space will be in inventory.As for large MOLLE pockets if it possible to add standart Large slots(General Large,Weapon Sling,etc)


PS do you plan update you overhaul for future builds?(like revision 5945 for example? Smile

[Updated on: Fri, 29 March 2013 23:57] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #316759] Sat, 30 March 2013 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Strohmann is currently offline Strohmann

 
Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
I won't add fully customisable vests in a sense of customizing all 12 pocket slots with modular pouches yourself. That would make all other vests obsolete.

It is possible, but i don't see what purpose adding the current 3 large pocket types general large, weapon sling and combat pack as MOLLE versions would serve. There is a clear usefullness ranking between the 3, so there would be no meaningful choice between them and i don't want to artificially nerf them down to enable a choice.
Like i said in the previous post i need proposals for new meaningful large pocket variants before i would decide to expand the MOLLE system to large pocket slots.

A new release will have to wait longer. I want to add some new scopes and red-dot sights with the next release and they need new images. And i suck at creating them. Also i have to playtest for a while myself looking for errors and inadequacies as there wasn't much extensive feedback yet. And in the newer revisions there seems to be a nasty bug that keeps detaching inseperable attachments from my scopes if i try to organize them with the sector inventory.
A likely, but not guaranteed release date will be the point of time when flugente overhauls the drug system, which will likely break savegame compatibility. Until then you have to incorporate the xml-changes from newer revisions manually.


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Master Sergeant
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