Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334625] Sat, 26 July 2014 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Hi.
Quote:
SMGs are really deadly at short to med range. A non-prone guy will be lucky to survive two bursts.
Intended, you aren't supposed to stand there, trade shots with the enemy and soak up damage. Armor should protect from most instantkills, better not to get hit at all.

Quote:
Scopes add a small, noticeable bonus, without being crazy effective. Until now, I ve only tried 2x and 3x, and i feel the bonus they give could be slightly better (a tiny little bit). Let's say that though i can see the improvement in aperture (with the . key), it doesn't make a significant difference in combat (for the 2x scope). I haven't used unscoped rifles to be able to comment.
Because scope effectiveness is now scaling with marksmanship and experience level. So early in the game you won't likely have great stats, so the difference to iron sights isn't so pronounced. The settings you can manipulate are SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER and SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM in CTHConstants.ini.

Quote:
One thing that i've noticed (though i haven't thoroughly tested) is that weapons seem much more important than merc stats, at least at medium rang (10-20 tiles). A merc with really low stats (hector) didn't really have a worse aperture than Grunty, with similar 9mm weapons. That might because Hector lacks the experience to estimate his CTH properly, but in practice, he did hit quite often. I suspect that it comes from this 'iron sight bonus' that gets flat applied to anyone.
With default stat weighting:
Hector dex 88/wis 72/mrks 61/lvl 1 -> 13,94 base cth, 61,57 aiming cth cap
Grunty dex 76/wis 72/mrks 78/lvl 3 -> 17,56 base cth, 69,71 aiming cth cap

Not that drastically different. The default IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS= 35.0 is applied as a percentage to the aperture and is very high, too high in my opinion. This was done so iron sights retain a sufficient aperture size at extended ranges. With the introduction of the discussed scaling factor it will likely be lowered again.

Quote:
Combat outcome is at the same time much more tactical, and much more reliant on sheer numbers than before. At equal numbers it is quite easy to win without taking damage. When the ai has 50% more men, it s still easy to win, but taking no damage becomes hard. I just did a battle against 15 enemies (with 8 mercs) in a forest (much harder to find good cover compared to urban fighting !) and i won with 2 heavily wounded mercs (and would have had at least 2 deads without save scumming). This is still the early game, so my equipment isnt really better than the opposition, and my mercs themselves are not that good.
Good. I never like the idea, that few mercs could obliterate a group 2-3+ the size of their own, at least at the game start with low tech and inexperienced group members. So try to avoid battles in open terrain in the early game phases.

Quote:
I have very little experience with AR (never went further than chitzena with AR) but does SDO change any difficulty settings (i was under the impression than not)? Because i ve never seen such a big counter attack on chitzena (normally it s about 20 guys). The reaction was very fast too. Normally i have time to do one or two rounds of training, this time i couldn't complete one.
Except for the enemy generals bonuses i don't think so.

Quote:
So regarding this experience, i have several questions :
[...] how can i handle this Chitzena issue? As long as they stay grouped, this 30 soldier group isn't beatable with my current weaponry. The map is B1, there're many houses, it's quite hard to cover everything and stay mobile.
The only viable strategy i can imagine is disappear in the countryside, pay my mercs off sold weapons, and get better weapons by raiding sams sites / military bases. Anything smarter ?
  • before attacking plunder the surrounding depots/sam sites for better gear and sandsacks/concertinas/mines
  • (defeat the patrols around the city, so that they aren't the first ones that get called for the counter attacks. Heavily depends on your group (size) and gear, if you can't manage skip this.)
  • marching time is dependent on the time of the day, militia training is not. So time your attack so, that you fight just a few minutes before/after nightfall. While the enemy forces are slowed you should have enough time to recruit militia
  • B1 seems to be quite easy to defend. Before the battle miltia gets called manually at the other end of the map, so that they aren't that spread out and join the fight later together. Your most agile mercs wait in the southern stone house and try to kill some enemies, then retreat to the central stone house when the pressure gets too great, where the rest of the team waits. Merc with anti-tank weapon waits at the backside of the southern stone house, ready to run in a postion to destroy the tank shortly after the battle begins, or otherwise it will flatten your protecting house walls. The rest should become routine: militia acts as spotter and bullet sponge, mercs lie behind the windows, get up, pop a mole and dive down again, rinse and repeat. If you're still loosing you can run away through the third central stone house and then northward, and retake the sector later
Quote:
[...] considering how much more important are numbers in battle outcome, i guess the drassen counter attack must become really hard. Before it was "get scopes for everyone, and keep moving". But somehow i feel this isnt going to be enough anyome. Have you (or someone else) managed to beat it with AR+SDO? With what kind of tactics?
Surely, but i don't take Drassen early. Without a delivery location the incentive is even lower in Arulco Revisited. I usually take Chitzena, then Cambria, then Grumm or Alma depending on where the enemy generals were spotted and Drassen usually as fourth. By that time you should have enough ammo, heavy weapons and fortification items to manage the attack. At the gamestart the odds of winning against the masses of soldiers and multiple tanks are next to impossible without exploiting i guess.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334726] Thu, 31 July 2014 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
buuface

 
Messages:101
Registered:October 2011
Hi Strohmannn,

I have followed your new 'direct' installation instructions as per the first post in this thread, including the AR maps submod.

When starting the game from the ini editor however, the game seems to run fine when selecting the SDO_Default_maps.ini but when trying to run with SDO+AR_Default)maps or SDE+AR_Scaling_Map_loot, a get a get the

'Jagged Alliance 2 Gold has stopped working' before the intro or title screen.

Any Ideas?

Edit: I will try to 'SVN' installation method later tonight so if that yields more success

Edit: I am running win 8.1 and have installed the compatibility patch.

[Updated on: Thu, 31 July 2014 14:04] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334749] Fri, 01 August 2014 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
henniheine

 
Messages:13
Registered:May 2011
Hi,

i seem to have a similar issue on a Win 7 64Bit PC.

"Jagged Alliance 2 Gold has stopped working" - after trying to start it

First Installation-order:

JA2 Gold (not in C:\Programs folder...)
Extracted "SCI_Unstable_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2071" over it.
Extracted "Arulco-Revisited--AR-v1.4-20130120-.7z" over it.
Extracted "SCI_SDO_CoreMod_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074" over it.
Extracted "AR+SDO_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074" over it.

Ran the "INI Editor.exe" and chose either "vfs_config.AR+SDO_Default_Maps.ini" or vfs_config.AR+SDO_Scaling_Map_Loot.ini".

Clicked on play -> didn't start in either way.

Second Installation-order:

JA2 Gold
"SCI_SDO_CoreMod_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074.7z"
"AR+SDO_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074.7z"

-> INI Editor

activating "vfs_config.AR+SDO_Default_Maps.ini" or "vfs_config.AR+SDO_Scaling_Map_Loot.ini" isn't working. 'Jagged Alliance 2 Gold has stopped working'

activating "vfs_config.JA2113+SDO_Default_Maps.ini" game starts. Red Error.

Is there something wrong with my installationorder's or anything i don't need to install for 1.13 + Arulco Revisited + your Stock Data Overhaul?

Greetings,

hennie

[Updated on: Sat, 02 August 2014 10:31] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334767] Sat, 02 August 2014 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightofni

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2011
You need to go in the 'Profiles' directory, and create a dircetory called 'UserProfile_JA2_AR+SDO_Progress_Scaling_Map_Loot'

then play with vfs_config.AR+SDO_Scaling_Map_Loot.ini"

Edit : the correct install order is the one you describe in second.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 August 2014 12:03] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334768] Sat, 02 August 2014 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
henniheine

 
Messages:13
Registered:May 2011
Thx, now it starts!

@ Strohmann, perhaps add "knightofni"'s -tipp to your Install-instructions?

There is only this error left during startup:

http://abload.de/thumb/neuebitmapiicwq.jpg

But that isn't a problem, or?

Greetings

[Updated on: Sat, 02 August 2014 12:20] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334769] Sat, 02 August 2014 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Anyone having the starting problems with Arulco Revisited please download AR+SDO_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074f here.

No the error won't be a real problem, just set SHOW_HEALTHBARSOVERHEAD to 2.

@knightofkni: did you manage to take and defend B1 in the meanwhile?
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334773] Sun, 03 August 2014 01:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sargeno

 
Messages:73
Registered:December 2001
Location: Oregon, USA
I haven't played yet but it did at least load up.
Thanks you for all you do for the community.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #334784] Mon, 04 August 2014 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightofni

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2011
Strohmann
@knightofkni: did you manage to take and defend B1 in the meanwhile?


I haven't dared going back to B1, however i've been doing pretty well. Attacking patrols and selling their arms to Tony is more than enough to pay my merc's salaries and hire new ones. I've taken Cambria (except the Mine). I'm starting to think

Strohmann

Quote:
SMGs are really deadly at short to med range. A non-prone guy will be lucky to survive two bursts.
Intended, you aren't supposed to stand there, trade shots with the enemy and soak up damage. Armor should protect from most instantkills, better not to get hit at all.
Yeah, that was actually a compliment. This way is much better. Before you could run between bullets.

Quote:

Quote:
One thing that i've noticed (though i haven't thoroughly tested) is that weapons seem much more important than merc stats, at least at medium rang (10-20 tiles). A merc with really low stats (hector) didn't really have a worse aperture than Grunty, with similar 9mm weapons. That might because Hector lacks the experience to estimate his CTH properly, but in practice, he did hit quite often. I suspect that it comes from this 'iron sight bonus' that gets flat applied to anyone.
With default stat weighting:
Hector dex 88/wis 72/mrks 61/lvl 1 -> 13,94 base cth, 61,57 aiming cth cap
Grunty dex 76/wis 72/mrks 78/lvl 3 -> 17,56 base cth, 69,71 aiming cth cap

Not that drastically different. The default IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS= 35.0 is applied as a percentage to the aperture and is very high, too high in my opinion. This was done so iron sights retain a sufficient aperture size at extended ranges. With the introduction of the discussed scaling factor it will likely be lowered again.


Well, it's good to hear that this iron sight bonus will be slightly reduced. Right now (except for sniping), mercs feel like mere bodies, with AP being the only really necessary characteristic.

Reading your explanation of the comparison between Grunty & Hector also made me realize that part of the problem lies in the fact that calculation use mercs' characteristics linearly, and that makes Grunty's apparent stat advantage almost irrelevant.


Some additional feedback on armors :

I'm starting to have a few spectra vests, so i now have a quite complete view of the armor system you've designed

1. Overall i like the reduced protection, especially against rifle rounds. In vanilla, when you have a high end armor, it feels like power armor from wh40k. Here you always feel vulnerable.

2. Weight : I like the fact that i have to (for many medium strength mercs) choose between a second weapon and armored pants.

3. However, i feel that high end armor provides insufficient protection against non-AP pistol rounds. I frequently get hit for low (10-20) amounts of damage when shot at by 9mm SMG. I don't think it's rounds ignoring the coverage of the armor (it'd be in the 20+). From what i understand, high-end modern ballistic armor provides very good protection against pistol type rounds. Gameplay-wise, one of the downside of the current system is that i don't feel that i 'need' AP ammo. 9mm FMJ is up to the task (against twaron armoured opponents). Maybe reduce the armor penetration for pistol / smg rounds ? (i'd hate to see the raw damage reduced)

4. Now that's sort of nit-picking, but i was surprised to see the flak vest giving the same level of protection than the kevlar vest. I was under the impression that a (real-life) flak vest would offer limited protection against bullets, while a kevlar vest should help against low-powered rounds.

[Updated on: Mon, 04 August 2014 15:47] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335052] Mon, 18 August 2014 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter

 
Messages:268
Registered:November 2009
Location: Sweden
I'm getting this fatal error:

Toggle Spoiler


I installed clean JA2 Gold
> SCI_2014_Unofficial_RC_r7364_GameDir_r2080
> CumulativePatch_140806
> AR+SDO_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074f.

It works fine without AR maps, but if I change to "vfs_config.AR+SDO_Scaling_Map_Loot.ini" or "vfs_config.AR+SDO_Default_Maps.ini" in the INI editor, I get the above error.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335057] Mon, 18 August 2014 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
opening post
[...]
- download and extract the single-click-installer SCI_SDO_CoreMod_Revision_7337_on_GameDir_2074 in the game directory [...]
[color:#FF0000]You don't need to download Depri's SCI unless you want to play with Unfinished Business, the necessary data is already included in my SCI.[/color] [...]

Sevenfm
Will it work with the stable release [2014]?
Strohmann
I haven't checked, but i'm not inclinded to make a compatible version, when the development continues anyway. Maybe i do so when the next stable release and a new Arulco Revisited Release both actually are published, but i give no guarantee.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335392] Tue, 02 September 2014 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BulletSix

 
Messages:50
Registered:October 2005
Location: Germany
hiya Smile

i am having a problem wit the xml-editor and the data-sdo-folder:

Column 'id' is constrained to be unique. Value '1048576' is already present

pops up right after starting (in case the DATA-SDo is the only one present in the ini) while dinsplaying "creating database" or after switching to the DATA-SDO (if Data-113 is selected as directory 1 and Data-SDO as directory 2).

And a file search gave me
NasAttachmentClass.xml
Items.xml
AttachmentSlots.xml
AttachmentPoint.xml
AttachmentClass.xml

as files containing the number mentioned
but looking at the files with notepad++ and comparing with the base files gives me no clues :/

Has anyone any ideas what is wrong/what i am doing wrong?

p.s. i am using the files mentioned in the first post over a ja2-gold clean install

Edit1
now thats strange ...
i copied the Tabledata-folder from the Data-SDO to the DATA-1.13 folder and aside from a bunch of missing pictures, the xml-editor loads fine ...
i'll try changing some stuff and see if the edits stick after copying inthe files back.

Edit2
ok, that went fine ... until i tried ti load/unload a gun, so the XML-editor definitely screws some things ... e.g. the pockets.xml
after looking at some files that wasn`t a good idea maybe i botched the copy&paste of the files but it seems the ides wasn`t good at all ^^ Sad

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2014 17:40] by Moderator


Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335691] Thu, 11 September 2014 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Decoy
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014
So I heard about the new updates on JA2 and I couldn't believe this blast from the past was still being modded. I loved the game as a kid so I dig up my old gold copy and give it a try. The new 1.13 stable was amazing but still kind of crashy, but knowing everything in the old map kind of killed it for me and I ruined my first attempt with drop all enabled (running tony out of money and overloading the zone inventory till it got buggy) so I went looking for map mods. AR looked great, but it was on such an old build that I didn't really want to downgrade. This lead me to your mod, reading this thread I wasn't sure if you got the balance right or people just didn't understand what you were going for, but after seeing ARMY_USES_TANKS_IN_PATROLS and tanks moving in tactical I had to try it. I never used heavy weapons before because there simply wasn't a point, it seems like that was the needed change to make it feel like you are fighting an army, and not just a bunch of minions.

First attempt was with WF maps just to check it out, but I guess this is an insane mode map pack. I decide to spend all my money on mercs and just beat up the first few guys for guns, but I spawn in spotted by 2 enemies with SMGs... I still managed to suppress them with my machinegunner IMP (who spawned with 2 guns for some reason) and beat them down with blood and kaboom and take their crap, while mouse ran to hide in the building behind me and found a landmine... lol if this is the first mission I can't hang, I think I am going to restart in AR maps even with the loot issues.

I made my imp a machinegunner mainly to test your balance changes, granted I haven't gotten far at all but it seems to work perfectly. Aimed bursts at SMG ranges usually connect with 1 round and definitely suppress as expected. I will give more feedback as I do more testing.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335710] Fri, 12 September 2014 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Quote:
[...] reading this thread I wasn't sure if you got the balance right or people just didn't understand what you were going for [...]
Please specify what you mean.

Quote:
First attempt was with WF maps just to check it out, but I guess this is an insane mode map pack.
The landing in omerta was always this rough and i didn't change anything important in this regard. At least the enemies don't have preplaced shotguns on this map anymore^^.

Quote:
[...] [M]y machinegunner IMP [...] spawned with 2 guns for some reason [...]
You get a gun according to your marksman stat, and may get additional guns for picking major traits. It's all in the second opening post.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335717] Fri, 12 September 2014 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Decoy
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014
The only thing I meant was that some people were arguing about the balance, and before I had the chance to install I didn't know what to think of it. So far it seems hard but fair, but I haven't gotten very far.

Yea I'm used to enemies rushing with pistols for the first few days, no yellow shirts in this mod they start out ready for combat. No complaints I guess, it was just unexpected.

I saw the new imp starting gear posts, I just assumed that a better gun from something like machinegunner would override the one from marksmanship, it seemed odd getting a Spectre M4 as well as a TMP to start. I guess that makes sense though, you wouldn't want to make a heavy weapons guy and drop in with only a 40mm and a handful of grenades.


I do have one rather large complaint, I noticed the new Melody webpage and thought that was cool, but the new merc interactions with the weird chat boxes are terrible. Is there a way to disable these interactions and preferably keep the melody page? I couldn't find it in the INI and googling it failed me.

For example, I started the game and was immediately spotted through two windows getting out of the helo. Makes sense, a helo zipline happening across the street isn't exactly subtle. My very first move I tell blood to rush to the building and an enemy gets an interrupt and fires a wild burst. No one is injured but Grunty is suppressed and crouches, and apparently because of that my imp (who I hadn't touched yet) mounted his gun on gruntys head, starting a new conversation box pissing him off and giving grunty -3 relations with my IMP... So I reload, move grunty a square then continue on.

Later I'm leaving omerta and it starts the new chat system with blood yelling at my imp for slowing the group down, apparently I put a little to much weight on him and now everyone except hitman has -2 to my imp... I'm all for improving merc interactions but so far this is garbage, my people can't fight in close proximity to each other without automatically resting guns on eachother constantly.

*edit* this is on a fresh install of your mod + your AR compatibility pack. Only INI settings I changed at the start were no stealing from BR, tony always available, and slay stays forever. Although I'm tempted to turn the view range down just a notch or two, the maps are just so small compared to the view range it kinda kills the stealth game.

[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2014 17:07] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335721] Fri, 12 September 2014 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2164
Registered:May 2009
The_Decoy

I do have one rather large complaint, I noticed the new Melody webpage and thought that was cool, but the new merc interactions with the weird chat boxes are terrible. Is there a way to disable these interactions and preferably keep the melody page? I couldn't find it in the INI and googling it failed me.

You probably want to set "DYNAMIC_DIALOGUE = FALSE" in Ja2_Options.ini.

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335725] Fri, 12 September 2014 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Quote:
I saw the new imp starting gear posts, I just assumed that a better gun from something like machinegunner would override the one from marksmanship, it seemed odd getting a Spectre M4 as well as a TMP to start. I guess that makes sense though, you wouldn't want to make a heavy weapons guy and drop in with only a 40mm and a handful of grenades.
Overriding isn't possible here as far as i know.

Quote:
I do have one rather large complaint, I noticed the new Melody webpage and thought that was cool, but the new merc interactions with the weird chat boxes are terrible. [...] I'm all for improving merc interactions but so far this is garbage, my people can't fight in close proximity to each other without automatically resting guns on eachother constantly.
I share the sentiment that the resting complaint happens way too often and reported Flugente this a while ago. However, unrelated to this mod, look here instead.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335731] Fri, 12 September 2014 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Decoy
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014
Thank you for that. Odd I didn't notice this feature playing the newer 1.13 "stable" release.

Are you interested in feedback on weapon balance? I realize you are trying to make the combat more realistic, are you also trying to make the weapons more realistic? I happen to know a LOT about guns, I realize some things are purely done for balance, but I am noticing a couple completely unrealistic quirks that could be tweaked. As a pre warning, I'm not talking about changing the way anything is calculated, just what numbers should go on what guns.

A simple way of explaining the difference in guns would be that range, damage, and accuracy (velocity and bullet mass in the real world) are based on the caliber and modified by the barrel length. The model of gun would further modify the accuracy, and determine gun handling characteristics/rate of fire/reliability and such.

For example, I noticed the UMP45 is completely outclassed by the UZI 9mm, being 5 points shorter in range and damage. It fires a larger round out of a barrel that is only slightly shorter, so the UMP should have slightly higher damage than the UZI with only couple points less range. It has the 2 round burst which is correct, but it definitely should have better range and damage than (for example) the Beretta 92f pistol. It doesn't make any sense that an SMG firing a .45acp round out of an 8" barrel has 4 less damage and only 1 more range than a pistol firing a 9mm round out of a barrel under 5" in length.

Is there a hard number for what 1 point of range and 1 point of "time" translates to? That would make it easier to figure out.



[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2014 19:21] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335733] Fri, 12 September 2014 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Ranges is 1/10 of nominal effective, pistols get a bonus so they don't get outclassed by knives.


Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335735] Fri, 12 September 2014 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
The_Decoy
Thank you for that. Odd I didn't notice this feature playing the newer 1.13 "stable" release.
Because it isnt included there.

Quote:
Are you interested in feedback on weapon balance? I realize you are trying to make the combat more realistic, are you also trying to make the weapons more realistic? I happen to know a LOT about guns, I realize some things are purely done for balance, but I am noticing a couple completely unrealistic quirks that could be tweaked. As a pre warning, I'm not talking about changing the way anything is calculated, just what numbers should go on what guns.
To begin with there're several harsh limits to realism: the size and flatness of the maps, (in)competence of the AI, the use of a hitpoint system etc., just to name some important.

The results are compression of the gun ranges at certain points, the unrealistic amount of tiles you can traverse in a single turn etc.

Quote:
For example, I noticed the UMP45 is completely outclassed by the UZI 9mm, being 5 points shorter in range and damage. It fires a larger round out of a barrel that is only slightly shorter, so the UMP should have slightly higher damage than the UZI with only couple points less range. It has the 2 round burst which is correct, but it definitely should have better range and damage than (for example) the Beretta 92f pistol. It doesn't make any sense that an SMG firing a .45acp round out of an 8" barrel has 4 less damage and only 1 more range than a pistol firing a 9mm round out of a barrel under 5" in length.
Your comparison omitted several important factors like:
  • The UMP45 is more silent (50 vs. 40 loudness), has way better handling (8 vs. 11), is lighter and can take better attachments, like the default foregrip.
  • The Uzi cools down faster and has lower recoil.
  • The caliber properties: while having lower damage, the .45 has a 1.35 multiplier against flesh.
Pistol stats are unrealistic to save them from oblivion.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335740] Fri, 12 September 2014 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Decoy
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014
I noticed the loudness but I didn't bring it up, generally the larger the caliber the harder it would be to suppress so doesn't make much sense that the UMP is quieter as well. There is the fact that a .45 starts out subsonic while a 9mm doesn't unless you use subsonic loads, but the 9mm doesn't stay supersonic for all that long and I have fired both .45 and 9mm pistols (and a few 9mm long barrels including the UZI) and I can tell you the .45 is seems louder at the source, although the difference isn't all that much they both make your ears ring without ear plugs. It's enough you can tell the apart though.

I didn't notice the caliber multiplier, that puts the UMP on par with the UZI damage wise. Still rather strange though as the .45s larger round will generally have much more energy, assuming similar loads and barrel lengths.

I know this isn't a good reference and I don't know how you could get data on something like this, but from my personal experience the UZI had the worst recoil of all the 9mm long guns I have fired. It actually surprised me how with the exact same ammo load between the two, firing an UZI next to a 9mm AR made the AR feel like a toy. The AR you could spit out rounds as fast as you wanted and the recoil was just a slight push backward, the sights would barely move on the target. The UZI doesn't really push back at all, the barrel just wants to climb and pull to the side for some reason. As I said, terrible reference for trying to inject realism into the gun stats. I have not had the chance to fire a UMP.

I didn't realize it was a 10-1 conversion on distance squares and I understand the need to buff pistols to not make them useless, but I think I have a better idea to balance them out. I agree a loaded pistol is a much better weapon than a knife to anyone who isn't legally blind I, and it should show in game. In my experience the main bonus of pistols is that they are very easy use at close range. Under 15m or so skill isn't even really a requirement, you just point and shoot enough times and you will hit something, past that it takes some practice aiming or you are wasting ammo, and anything 30m+ is one hell of a shot with a pistol even if it has a scope, although that does make it easier. I think the best way to model that in game would be to lower the ranges but increase the accuracy, it would take some testing but I would start with cutting the range in half and doubling the accuracy bonus. I don't know the formula for how range affects accuracy penalties, but I think someone with very high marksmanship skill should still be able to hit targets at medium range if they take the time to fully aim, but anyone that even knows how to fire it should be able to reliably hit targets without much aiming under 5 tiles.

[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2014 22:29] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335748] Sat, 13 September 2014 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
SDO submods for the stable release and a newer unstable revision are now available as direct or svn download.

Changelog Unstable_Revision_7476_on_GameDir_2139:
Toggle Spoiler
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335751] Sat, 13 September 2014 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1345
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
Is that intended that TT 3-Day pack is a backpack now?
(testing new SDO release for stable 7435 from SVN)


Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335752] Sat, 13 September 2014 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Yes, most combat packs went to the backpack slot to make room for the patrol belts.

knightofni
Some additional feedback on armors :
[...]
3. However, i feel that high end armor provides insufficient protection against non-AP pistol rounds. I frequently get hit for low (10-20) amounts of damage when shot at by 9mm SMG. I don't think it's rounds ignoring the coverage of the armor (it'd be in the 20+). From what i understand, high-end modern ballistic armor provides very good protection against pistol type rounds. Gameplay-wise, one of the downside of the current system is that i don't feel that i 'need' AP ammo. 9mm FMJ is up to the task (against twaron armoured opponents). Maybe reduce the armor penetration for pistol / smg rounds ? (i'd hate to see the raw damage reduced)

4. Now that's sort of nit-picking, but i was surprised to see the flak vest giving the same level of protection than the kevlar vest. I was under the impression that a (real-life) flak vest would offer limited protection against bullets, while a kevlar vest should help against low-powered rounds.
The new revision comes with the following [color:#009900]changes[/color]:

Flak Vest: protection 15, coolness 2
Field Uniform: protection 20[color:#009900]->18[/color], coolness 4[color:#009900]->3[/color]
Kevlar Vest: protection 15[color:#009900]->20[/color], coolness 2[color:#009900]->4[/color]
Twaron Vest: protection 15[color:#009900]->23[/color], coolness 3[color:#009900]->5[/color]
Spectra Vest: protection 25, coolness 6
SWAT Vest: protection 20[color:#009900]->25[/color], coolness 5[color:#009900]->7[/color]
Dyneema Vest: protection 30, coolness 9

--
Some comparisons:

Stock 1.13

Pistol Caliber AP: 0.75 Protection Multiplier
Assault Rifle AP: 0.75 Protection Multiplier
SAP: 0.5 Protection Multiplier

SDO

Most Pistol Caliber AP: 0.8 Protection Multiplier
9x21mm AP: 0.65 Protection Multiplier
9x19mm AP Overpressured: 0.6 Protection Multiplier
5.7x28mm/4.6x30mm AP: 0.5 Protection Multiplier
Assault Rifle FMJ: 0.7-0.6 Protection Multiplier
9x39mm AP: 0.5 Protection Multiplier
Anti-Material AP: 0.2 Protection Multiplier

Given that pistol caliber damage and armour protection values are largely the same and only high power caliber damage values went up, i don't see much need for changes. Keep in mind you also can wear ceramic/titanium plates on top of that.

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335938] Fri, 19 September 2014 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
These new values certainly seem enticing. Haven't played JA2 for a while so this new... flavor is definitely appreciated. Very Happy

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336192] Fri, 26 September 2014 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vincent J. Claymore

 
Messages:270
Registered:February 2011
This mod seems to have a focus on balance. Am I correct in assuming that this means that things are generally "less realistic" than in stock 1.13 / other mods? What I mean by "less realistic" is that things that work in the real world (like x7 battle scopes on ARs/BRs for example) don't work in SDO, because you / people feel that they would be over powered?
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336216] Fri, 26 September 2014 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
VinnieClaymore
This mod seems to have a focus on balance. Am I correct in assuming that this means that things are generally "less realistic" than in stock 1.13 / other mods? What I mean by "less realistic" is that things that work in the real world (like x7 battle scopes on ARs/BRs for example) don't work in SDO [...]
It's the ago-old singe shot versus autofire and realism versus game balance problem.

For various reasons auto-fire is superior compared single shots in a direct competition.

Can't compete in damage, because there aren't that much two-handed single shot-only guns anyway and consecutive hits in a volley increase the damage of each hit, increasing the damage exponentially quickly.
You can make them more accurate, but this quickly reaches a limit, because this can be easily offset by just firing enough volume of bullets.

This is linked to another mechanic: aiming is a process, not a state. A big chunk of the ap-cost for each try is for firing the gun and aiming, which have to be "paid" each time. In comparison adding more bullets to a volley is very "cheap", making it more appealing most of the time.

So one lifeline is to shift the combat distance of single shots in the increased field of view granted by scopes. They can carry various penalties to hamper accurate long-range fire and potentially give single shots more engagement time/distance before auto fire becomes superior again. However this also comes with a drawback: as the AI can't use sight range increasing devices as effectively as the player (mainly because of memory issues), equipping the whole player squad with sight range increasing scopes would give a too big advantage, making the game too easy after a certain point.
That's the reason most assault rifle lost the possibilty to mount such high magnifying scopes as the battle scope 7x (coincidently they can't mount the scope 2x any longer, too). Nearly all battle rifles with the caliber 7.62x51mm and such should accept the battle scope 7x however (their recoil is worse "enough").

Quote:
[...]because you / people feel that they would be [overpowered]?
It's a one-person-project.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336336] Tue, 30 September 2014 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Swant

 
Messages:29
Registered:April 2011
I don't know is this is the best place to post but..

First problem:
I dont get the option to reinforce with mobile militia if Im attacking an area and the militia is in the same area as me. It works in the cities with normal milita

Second problem:
When I playing with MANUALLY EQUIP MILITIA on and AR SCALING MAP LOOT, the guns that I find and are in "holsters" for ex the gun in the rebel hideout basement will disappear. The militia will take them but then they are gone and the milita wont drop dem. The other guns will the milita take, use and drop. When playing AR DEFAULT MAPS the guns that I "find" seems to work with the milita.
(this is at least the conclution I came to after some testing)

Third problem/question:
Is it possible to change the Mercs character trait? (I want Scope to be loner instead of sociable)


This is what I have installed:
Ja 2
SCI_SDO_RequiredCoreMod_Unstable_Revision_7476_on_GameDir_2139
AR+SDO_Unstable_Revision_7476_on_GameDir_2139

[Updated on: Tue, 30 September 2014 12:28] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336351] Tue, 30 September 2014 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
1) Because the setting ALLOW_REINFORCEMENTS_ONLY_IN_CITIES in Ja2_Options.INI is TRUE by default. You need a radio operator with a radio set to call in these reinforcements "manually".

2) I think it would be better to report this in the thread where Flugente presented the feature or the general bug thread. These are random items ItemClass Misc resolving into gun bags ItemClass Nothing, which then resolve into random items ItemClass Misc and ItemClass Ammo again.

3) Yes, open MercProfiles.xml in your AR folder (that's the submod you are playing with right?) with Notepad++. The first green lines show all the traits. So find Scope and set to 2. For this to take effect you need to start a new game though.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336352] Tue, 30 September 2014 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Swant

 
Messages:29
Registered:April 2011
Great! Thanks
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336484] Tue, 07 October 2014 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Vetskim, Arulco Revisited with Stable Revision 7435 Thread
With AR and SDO combo installed, which ja2_options.ini do I need and from which folder? I WANT to modify the ini file for a new game start to own liking but it doesn't seem to be able to accept it even after amendments to file ini. Is the relevant file used for the SDO + AR mod in the SDO or AR folders?

I am guessing that AR is the ja2_options.ini I need as that is the definitive submod for SDO right? But even so when I started new game in the AR with SDO maps progression no changes made to the ini is in effect? Why not.... L? & #B-)!please help frustuteeated and deIvirepus to fondest soonest surlUtioms
Please commemtnhelpcsoomedy

Apologiees have taken, meds alresdy an is late.
Opening Post
[...] To play open the INI Editor and Select INI-File: Data-SDO\Ja2_Options.INI (or open the file directly with Notepad++ and co.) (and modify the options to your wishes. What options you shouldn't likely change is specified further below). All options are centrally controlled here, even for the SDO map sub-mods. [...]
If you have a Ja2_Options.INI in the Data-AR folder your installation is likely borked. So try again following the instructions in the opening post. And remember some former Ja2_Options.INI settings are now located in DifficultySettings.xml.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 October 2014 07:16] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336515] Thu, 09 October 2014 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
axor01

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2013
Location: RSA
Apologies for garbled previous post. Will reinstall and follow that post instructions. Thanks for support of this great mod.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336615] Sun, 12 October 2014 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWJunky

 
Messages:57
Registered:November 2012
Location: Austria
hey Strohmann i am playing your latest sdo mod but
i cant seem to find the exe file for your newest unstable build. Furthermoe the link to the wildfire maps is broken in the svn section. now i am using the 7535 build exe. everything seemed to be working ok, until the fist fighting in san mona. when i down my last opponent the clock cursor is displayed and doesn't go away. can somebody please help me with this.

[Updated on: Sun, 12 October 2014 20:46] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336630] Mon, 13 October 2014 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
If i click the link in the opening post it directs me to Depri's MS OneDrive, where i find a 7516 exe (last SDO update was Unstable_Revision_7516_on_GameDir_2148). It doesn't work for you?

Fixed the url, it is https://ja2svn.no-ip.org/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD/ .

The boxfight issue is likely unrelated to SDO.

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336638] Mon, 13 October 2014 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cardinal

 
Messages:45
Registered:September 2014
Hi! Thanks for the great mod. It really irons out some things that bugged me with stock 1.13.
Now, a couple of noobish questons:

Since in SDO enemies outrange mercs with weapons like rifles and LMG's right off the bat, what is the balance like regarding "enemies drop all" option?
Would you recommend playing with it on or off?

Is there somwhere I can look up the meanings of enemy icons and bars, they differ from the stock 1.13? For example I assume the orange bar is suppression shock, but I'd like to know for sure.

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336639] Mon, 13 October 2014 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jean Luc Picard

 
Messages:22
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
I

[Updated on: Mon, 13 October 2014 19:55] by Moderator

Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336677] Tue, 14 October 2014 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Cardinal
Since in SDO enemies outrange mercs with weapons like rifles and LMG's right off the bat, what is the balance like regarding "enemies drop all" option?
Would you recommend playing with it on or off?
If you start with the default slow item progression they outrange you with LMGs? With which map submod and on which map?

I have nether bothered with the drop all option, because the player may aquire good gear too early/easy, the added micro management and the further devaluation of stealing/hand-to-hand trait.
I guess with finetuning the other finance options or deleting the new loot instead of selling it you can make it work somehow, but i wouldn't recommend it. Just pretend the "missing" loot the enemies didn't drop got damaged beyond salvation during combat if you think it's unrealistic.

Quote:
Is there somwhere I can look up the meanings of enemy icons and bars, they differ from the stock 1.13? For example I assume the orange bar is suppression shock, but I'd like to know for sure.
They don't differ from Stock 1.13, it's just most new features are turned off as default. So look into Ja2_Options.INI/Tactical Interface Settings etc. Some are presented here.

JeanLucPicard
I
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336685] Tue, 14 October 2014 23:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cardinal

 
Messages:45
Registered:September 2014
Strohmann
If you start with the default slow item progression they outrange you with LMGs? With which map submod and on which map?


What I meant was the enemy gets SMGs, rifles and LMGs from the start (the LMG guy was in Drassen airport), while my mercs are pretty much stuck with pistols and machine pistols.
Elites (greenshirts) throw grenades from further away than my mercs can shoot them, and they are among starting enemies in A9.

I usually play with regular random drops, so I thought maybe I was supposed to play with "drop all" to give myself a fighting chance. I guess I'll just have to improve my skills. :whoknows:

Thanks for the link, that's what I was looking for.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336689] Wed, 15 October 2014 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Swant

 
Messages:29
Registered:April 2011
I think I found a small bug. When the Colt 9mm has a c-mag adapter, it goes from temperature cool to dramatic after just one burst.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336695] Wed, 15 October 2014 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWJunky

 
Messages:57
Registered:November 2012
Location: Austria
i have a question regarding the ini editor. my changes dont seem to take effect. for example i cant change my starting cash. or malke all mercs available from the start.
Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336696] Wed, 15 October 2014 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Swant

 
Messages:29
Registered:April 2011
TWJunky
i have a question regarding the ini editor. my changes dont seem to take effect. for example i cant change my starting cash. or malke all mercs available from the start.


You have to select the right INI file: Data-SDO\Ja2_Option.INI
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