Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318780]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 13:35  
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 Shanga |
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Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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I've read both the latest interview and the reactions on the rpgcodex forums. Can't say I blame FC for being shocked, anyone not involved in the JA saga would've been. But it proves how much your friends at bC told you about this when they dropped the hot potato in your lap...
Did they somehow tell you "take this, make it TB and you'll totally rock"? What a joke. Just going around fixing something they fucked up ain't going to fix anything. Let me let you on a little dark secret. The RTwP system in the end didn't turn out half bad as it was supposed to be. IT WAS THE REST THAT SUCKED BALLS. From faces, to personalities, to no RPG, to stupid lame "quests", to weapon load-outs, to weapon themselves, to inventory, to combat, to progression, to enviroment, etc, etc everything sucked and felt like a cheap xerox copy of a Rembrandt.
So, no. RTwP was stupid because it wasn't needed. And because it was attached to JA2 name when it was called "Reloaded". It was offensive. But in itself, for any other strategic game, it would've worked.
After the interview it's even more clear you expected warm and fuzzy applause. Just because. Hmm... let me remember when we last had warm and fuzzy... I think it was about 11 years ago, when Ian said they MIGHT make a JA3. Then it went all to hell.
But if you think the people that criticize you are doing you a a huge dis-service, you're a dead wrong.
[color:#CC0000]The only people who've been giving actual help are the ones who pointed our what IDIOTIC moves you made and what you LACK. If you choose to sulk we're not the soccer-dads that like the G-Squad memes, it's your loss.[/color] We honestly regret you had to spend $30k to prepare for the KS, too. Anyone here could've helped you prepare better, for free. Let's point out a few obvious facts:
Kickstarter Campaign (or how to waste $30k):
- You admitted you had a month to prepare for KS. You joined here only after it went live. Why, in the name of God, throw out so much knowledge BEFORE doing the KS? Either you think you're smarter than everyone here or ... you thought just creating some smoke would win everyone over. Both wrong assumptions.
- It took you 9-10 updates to come up with decent details about what people are pledging money for. You actually give more info in your interviews than in your KS updates. You still haven't covered modding that would've given you the ultimate argument when the shitstorm debates hit you ("if you dont like what we do, we made it so you can mod it").
- You claim to have a vision for JA because you are as hardcore fans as all of us. Yet you put on the top priority list adding a sector inventory, which is already in the game. Honest mistake for someone who only played JA2 for a couple hours.
- You knew bC screwed us bad when they made all BiA merc faces look like shit. Instead of serving us a prerendered image of a gun I could've googled in 3 mins, you could've spent a day and some talent and come up with a "young Ivan" image. Fuck it, even Ivan in a tutu would've brought you pledges because WE DIG HUMOR. We don't dig Disney memes a lot, though.
- You seem quite annoyed to include modding as one of the TOP MUST-HAVE features. Really? That's all you can say to the people who allowed you to actually play with the license now? It makes us wonder who is taking who for a ride here. Do you think of the modders as a nice badge you can put up on KS to attract more money and then get rid of? I hope you are ready to answer really hard questions there, because they will be asked.
[color:#CC0000]The sooner you quit the primadona act and realize we want you to succeed more than you ever dream, the better you will be. But if you think we'll let you do a trash job at it and just fuck up the license because... you know... everyone did it before you... boy you're in for a fight.[/color]
PS: If you have learned by now how to read a critical message the above list includes quite a few hidden tips on what people expect of you. But then again, you can also keep on blaming the big-bad-mean fans who don't want you to take JA to new heights of gaming.
[Updated on: Mon, 06 May 2013 14:03] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318789]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 16:04
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| JAFTeam |
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Messages:157
Registered:April 2013 |
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Hey Shanga,
I don't agree with you on the fact that RTwP wasn't the main problem. Well, I agree that it wasn't the main problem at all, but it started with that. On the other side it didn't stop there. It is symbolic for what went wrong with all that stuff. From the character portraits to the missions. From the weapons + modifications to the whole style of the game. But RTwP is also part of this general problem. Yes, it worked somehow but still wasn't that great at all.
So did we expect to get applause right from the very beginning? No. Again. We didn't. Are we shocked cause of the negativity? Somehow. A bit. Are we shocked that it is a hard way to our target? Then again, no. And about the negativity, well, we did know there was some, but we didn't expect people to be THAT scared of anyone touching the franchise. A lot of wrong things were done to Jagged. So it's on the other hand quite understandable. We don't blame people for that by the way. We're just a bit...surprised.
About the 30k thing: You know, salaries are being paid. So people were moved away from Space Hulk. They were, of course, prbly moved away anyways for pre-production of whatever project. Sure, some other things had to be payed too, like video cutters and stuff.
What I agree on is that it was a mistake to not be around here before the KS. That's something we wouldn't do again.
About the modding thing: We will cover that in a future update. As said before: We are right now in talks with several modders from the Pit. Just because some details haven't been cleared out, it doesn't mean it's not happening while we talk 
About the sector inventory: I am now using it. But then again, that was my mistake. Thomas however used it before and says that it's still not perfect (although 1.13 made some interesting additions but is yet maybe too complex for beginners, so that is a matter of explanation than).
For the characters: This will be also covered in a future update. We thought (which was maybe wrong) that adding stuff over the whole campaign would be the best way instead of killing people with a shitload of Infos right away and no one would get the point. Maybe, yes, maybe that thought was wrong.
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318790]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 16:12
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| grim |
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Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France |
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I don't know what to add, Shanga's speech is so relevant to me.
We want to provide constructive criticism.
I know you (FC) are working hard on your Kickstarter, but you are not giving sufficent material and pertinent answers to the audience.
By the way, where are the big announcements and the video you promised (for last week...)? People can't back your project on smoke and promises. They need something to build their dream on, hope, and faith...
And, please, don't blame the "fans", it won't make people pledge any better. For your information, i pledged as high as i could, and spread the word to my network, with good advertising, but the KS is an empty shell at the moment.
I had a look at several other KS projects, at different stages, on different subjects... They all had much more material to catch people's attention: gameplay videos, demos, interviews, clear and appealing stretch goals... Even if you don't have any connection to the project, many of them are attractive. You want to be part of it!
Now look at yours...
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318791]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 16:12
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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RTwP was wrongly attached to JA. It was like going to Vatican and saying "Dudes, you know that symbol of yours... yea, the cross... let's change that into something more hip, more trendy"... Gameplay-wise, it's an ok system and "The Fall" used it long before BIA with decent success. But JA isn't "The Fall".
As for holding back on updates, the morale is pretty low now. And you could really really really use a boost of faith.
PS: I know you are in contact with modders, but that's not the silver bullet. The question is not whether the modders are capable of turning JA:F into a great game, it's what help you're going to provide, as a company, to help them do it. Because I know our modders. They're such a dedicated crowd they can take any turd of a game (...BIA?) and turn it into something decent.
The boost of faith, modding wise, isn't what modders could give to JA:F. It's what JA:F could give to modders. And that's what we're lacking news on.
[Updated on: Mon, 06 May 2013 16:21] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318794]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 16:23
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| Sam Hotte |
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Messages:1966
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany |
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JAFTeamI don't agree with you on the fact that RTwP wasn't the main problem. Well, I agree that it wasn't the main problem at all, but it started with that. On the other side it didn't stop there. It is symbolic for what went wrong with all that stuff. From the character portraits to the missions. From the weapons + modifications to the whole style of the game. But RTwP is also part of this general problem. Yes, it worked somehow but still wasn't that great at all.
I disagree (not to please R@S ).
RTwP is only the last drop on all the weird stuff they made with BiA.
I'm sure, if everything else you mentioned would have been great stuff and to please JA fans, there would have been quite some players admitting that RTwP does add to realism and difficult gameplay ("the second it took me to raise gun and take an aim, that bastard used to dive for cover behind these sandbags and I missed the shot ...")
So, IMVHO, RTwP is different from turn based, yes, and that made the shit even worse ("it's crap - and not even turn based anymore!") and bad feelings toward it came IMHO more from the "TB is not broken, so don't fix it" PoV - but I still think, without the other crap it could have been "that great" with RTwP.
However, shouldn't be discussed here - AND DON'T YOU DARE making JAF not turn based ...
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318802]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 18:08
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| DaethWalker |
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Messages:98
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC |
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I'm completely new to Kickstarter and haven't actually pledged to any game yet. All I've done so far is lurk around and wish I had a million dollars to back my favorites.
But, with that lurking I've come to one main opinion about it and both the people who are asking for money and the people who are giving the money.
Kickstarter isn't only about the money. It's where you go to make dreams come true. That may sound corny, but it seems to be working.
So, when I found out about your campaign about a week before you went live. I thought to myself that finally our dreams were coming true for a real Jagged Alliance. I then started my own quest to raise as much of my own money to get on the ground floor of my first Kickstarter campaign. I was going to come up with as much money as I could and pledge as much as I could, more than I could afford. Because this was the one game I really wanted and have been wanting for more than a decade.
So, you can imagine both my supprise and disapointment when you finally went live. 
Kickstarter is where you go to make dreams come true. For both the developers of their product and the fans and consumers of that project. It's where people invest in the dreams of others.
Instead what we got was a company that seemed to be thinking inside the box instead of outside the box. A company that basically was more interested in getting by on macoroni and cheese instead of steak and potatoes. A company that decided it needed to offer the lowest bid to win the prize, when there were no other bidders. A company that instead of "shooting for the moon" and asking for money to build a rocket, decided to see if they could get on their neighbors' roof and wanted to buy a ladder.
Your biggest problem and a disapointment to all of us was your "goal". $350,000 is barely enough to pay wages to what has to be the lowest paid team of developers in the gaming industry.
You went into this campaign all wrong. You went in as accountants instead of dreamers. You looked at the "bottom line". You asked yourselves what is the lowest amount of money we can ask for and still make a game and feed our families. That was the wrong attitude for Kickstarter.
The main question you should have asked? How much money do we need to give gamers the best Jagged Alliance game to come out since Sir-Tech made it? How much money do we need to make a game so addictive that gamers lose sleep, forget to eat, call in sick and/or play at work. 1 million? 2? More?
And truely be crazy about it!!! This could have been your one shot at greatness!!! To reach for the moon!!! If you want to just be a small independent game company then you shouldn't have done this. Kickstarter is where you go to become a huge independent game company. It's where you go to be able to make your dreams come true, whatever those dreams may be. Dream big!!!
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318817]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 20:11
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| DaethWalker |
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Messages:98
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC |
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@ Vortexdr
And you're still looking at the "bottom line".
Presentation is the key.
What they should have done is said:
We can do "A" for $350 - $500k - the $350,000 number isn't so bad as the lack of what exactly we would get for that. Sure $500,000 would be better. But, I could live with $350,000 if I knew what I was getting for that. 20 hrs of game play? x amount of sectors, mercs, weapons, etc....
Then for stretch goals they could have said:
We can add "B" for 400k, "C" for 450k, etc...
Basically even after 2 weeks on Kickstarter, all I really know is it's a video game, it's turned-based and it's based on Jagged Alliance ... oh, and they really like Hamsters. 
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318835]
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Mon, 06 May 2013 23:31
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| Vortexdr |
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Messages:57
Registered:April 2013 |
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Decado2Sure, presentation is key and actually defining what will be achieved for 350k would be nice, but that and stretch goals are aren't terribly meaningful until they convince us (or at least try!) that they can pull of a good JA2 successor.
It's completely lacking and, IMO, why this kickstarter is moving so slowly. FC doesn't seem to want to acknowledge/address this (from their comments and lack of action) so they're pretty much dooming the KS. Whatever they think, the support shown so far is *not* a reflection of the demand for a new JA game.
Agreed, what bugs me more then anything is that FC insists on saying they were prepped for this kickstarter.
How they can say that is beyond me. You would of been prepped with the content you have if you would of launched this a year+ ago but for this point in time you aren't anywhere close to being prepared.
I mean there is NOTHING to show but walls of text... best we got was an alpha/pre-alpha from Space Hulk (which wasnt linked to your KS until people mentioned it) you simply cant expect the masses to pledge if you have 0% to show.
This should of been launched in maybe two months or whenever you had the Curries etc on board but that's beating a dead horse so i'll just drop it.
I'm still supporting but please get your act together, seeing A Jagged Alliance sequel struggle to make a meager 350k isnt the fans fault...Hope it works out, I really, really do
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Corporal
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318843]
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Tue, 07 May 2013 02:02
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Somehow FC expects the community to magically deliver the stuff they lack. And even if I could pull rabbits out of my hat, that wouldn't happen in the few days they have until KS runs out.
This kind of project takes a lot of discussions and debates. Any serious project does. It's a fracture of logic here, you see. They're saying they want our input and they seem to actually take notes of what we're saying, on one hand. On the other hand, they put everything under an impossible deadline, asking for funding before anything has been set in stone. I spend more than 30 days to plan a vacation with the family and I am to think this is enough for a solid project like the revival of JA?
Maybe I am not Danish and I don't understand the logic behind this. If anyone is born there, I admit, I am retarded, I don't dig it... but explain to me in baby steps, how this works:
How does someone promise you "anything you want" before actually knowing what you want? And based on that promise of "anything-you-want-but-we-dont-yet-know-what-you-want" come and ask for funding? And open arms support?
I am not trying to be offensive to Danish people. I am just trying to figure out if we've grown too pessimistic and bitter over here. Maybe in Denmark people do that and it's a clash of cultures. Enlighten me.
[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 02:02] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318849]
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Tue, 07 May 2013 03:32
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Yes, Sam, but we've been telling people what we want since that JA3 Wishlist forum has been started. For more than a decade we did it. And it's not like we want a fucking flying saucer with a green martian coming out of it and doing a hoola dance, is it? All we ever wanted was the minimum of respect my grocer shows me when he doesn't try to sell me an expired can of beans. Proper trade. You make a good product, I pay you the money for it and tell others is edible and that they should shop from you. Instead we get rotten stuff, packed in shiny new cans to look new. Over and over again. They just changed the manufacturer on the label.
And in the end they come and look down upon us and say "oh well, you know, there's not so many of you left, no big brand would come to your stinkhole, you take what we give you or you'll starve to death". Like somehow it was OUR fault they fucked this up so royally. Like the value we added to the brand by years of carefully tending to it ourselves only makes us more prone to get hoaxed even further.
Up to now they used to come here, promise the earth and moon, only then to deliver junk. And when we refused to buy their junk, they vanished silently into the butthole they crawled out of.
Now FC comes and does it all again. Earth and moon. But they want money in advance for it.
Sadly, that's the only difference so far, FC, between you and them. You might have a better view of yourselves when you look in the mirror, but this is the company you joined. And all those retarded scammers that came before you had greater expertise, bigger teams, bigger budgets and probably played more JA2. So far, the only thing that sets you apart from your predecessors is that you want to get payed before you work.
You have exactly 16 days to prove you are not another leech feeding off this name. And that's not a whole lot.
16 days. And a fucking lot to prove.
[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 03:35] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318851]
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Tue, 07 May 2013 04:34
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| Peal |
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Messages:259
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany |
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I don't know, I'm torn back and forth...
I think it's a shame this KS runs so slow. Blaming FC only is so easy. It's always easier to destroy something rather than to build something. I'm really pissed that this community and all other genre fans aren't able to see something good if it comes along. I'm pissed that there aren't 700k already.
Yes FC has to proof a lot, yes FC steps into an hornets nest, yes FC may underestimated the task. It's so easy to blame them for everything. But what have I and you guys done so far? Nothing like hot air. I wanted to make an Video or even to put news on the dead taktikzone. Yeah I'm fucking busy as hell, but in the end so far I did nothing. Shame on me! Blame me!
For fucks sake they did a lot right! They are listening to us, they are reacting to our concerns in the KS updates. They have an good angle on the game, so far there is almost nothing wrong with the Vision they've got for JAF.
For what are we waiting? For superman to come by, cleaning all the air pollution on the planet, so ppl are getting happier and more likely to pledge? Ain't gonna happen! They are a small studio and this is a pre-production pitch, WAKE UP! Maybe they announce cooperation with some modders or even ex Sirtech, maybe the team video will be charming and full of passion. But this and the panorama map is probably all we get.
Shanga is right they could do much more, but we as well.
PS: If some one is giving you his hand, you don't look at it searching for dirt.
[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 04:55] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318853]
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Tue, 07 May 2013 09:18
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| Mauser |
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Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany |
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Again i can only fully agree to everything Shanga said up until now.
The Kickstarter campaign looks like an impending failure right now, mainly because it was started prematurely and pretty badly planned and managed.
All the content and updates we see until now should have been available on day one as a primer for the campaign.
The whole campaign should have been started only after FC had proven their ability and credentials after releasing at least a proper Space hulk demo and the availability of a lot more impressive artwork and preview material.
FC should have worked the fanbase and communities a lot more early on, using their potential to make their project known to the proper target audience way beforehand, thus ensuring a way better start on KS. The first impression really is crucial here and it lacked direly on that part.
Also, in case the KS support would not suffice for a proper full scale game, instead they should have set a somewhat lower minimum goal of around 200.000 $ or so, with which they could have at least make JA:F a smaller, shorter and content restricted downloadable game as a proof of concept, and then use KS stretch goals to either expand that or use another KS campaign to fund its expansion into a proper full price game later on. The good thing about KS is, that you are funding projects, which can be split into multiple modules or stages to be funded separately at different times. Make one campaign to fund the prototype/demo, if that succeeds, then make another, larger one to produce and market the actual product. Is that such a hard to grasp concept?
Overall, this could and should have been approached a lot smarter and more professional, with at least one able person working dedicated over months to prepare the fanbase and the KS camapaign related PR.
So, until i can see the KS getting close to succeeding and FC getting a lot more serious and professional about it pronto, i will also withhold my personal support and pledge for now.
I still do really want you guys to succeed, but i also want you to step up your game considerably and actually SHOW us the passion and dedication for the game, instead of just mostly talking about it!
Oh, and @ Javier: that AK model looks ok. This quality and detail level should quite suffice, as well as the artstyle. You know the modders will come up with something better and more detailed and accurate eventually, but for your initial work this should be spot on.
[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 09:34] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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First Sergeant
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318857]
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Tue, 07 May 2013 10:51
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| R@S |
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Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden |
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Have have a different view in this matter, big surprise huh
A KS is where someone asks the community to bet some money on something, and that's what it is, a bet. It's up to FC to convince us to bet as much money we feel it's worth (giving better odds that they'll give us a big reward).
PROTIP: Never bet more money than you feel you can afford losing.
I see a lot of potential here, they have a good game world builder as base(Unity) and claim to have a basic TB engine from their work on Frontline Tactics and SH. What they want funding for is improving the TB engine to the high standard of JA2's combat engine. It's not like they're planning to re-invent the wheel, they already have something to work with.
Here's where they are asking this community for help, to improve their work so it'll be a worthy successor to Jagged Alliance. In their KS they are asking for funds to pay salaries for the guys making the game assets and working with the code. That's it.
All this talk about this and that disrupts this message, people tend to get hung up on small details and how something was worded. people also complain about how the KS is being run, which isn't really the point here, the point is what they will do with the money.
When I first head about the KS, my first instinct told me it was going to fail. But along the way I changed my mind, some of the things that matter came to light. They are very skilled working with the Unity engine, they have a working TB combat engine to improve, and the best one, they are asking the most knowledgeable people to help guide them.
My two
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Sergeant
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