Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318258] Tue, 30 April 2013 08:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oilystool

 
Messages:25
Registered:April 2013
Location: Copenhagen
blackout24
Shanga
The idea is the bC made all the wrong steps right from the go. Announced they make "JA2 Reloaded" with pomp and then said it's no longer TB. That's like looking down the barrel and pulling the trigger to check if shotgun is loaded. The fact that they renamed it BIA and pulled all the marketing bells and whistles just didn't work. They realized way too late this game is A CULT GAME. It's not your pewpewpew tadadada shooter my 7 year old would probably love (but he's forbidden to play). This is a cult game for a very very specialized and expert hardcore fan base. And if you can't win the hardcore fans and think "fuck them, we'll just rebrand it and sell it to kids", the fans will give you a whoopin to remember.



This is why FC is doing well what they are doing and they're are to be applauded. Only downside, they have nothing yet to show. But they're not asking for $2 million either. They're basically asking for a chance to prove it can be done right.

And let's face it - after BIA, it's the best chance we got. Maybe the last.



This is so very very true. I'm a big Diablo fan. With Diablo 2 it was a quite similar situation. Diablo 2 very old stil very popular and has a mega diehard fanbase. Worthy sequel more than overdue. Only difference Diablo 3 was still a Blizzard game and there was no semi follow-up made by another company in the meantime. This way they sold millions of copies despite delivering a horrible game in the eyes of every true fan. Blizzard got absolutely murdered by its fans and the Lead Designer even left the company just 1 year after the release.

What I hear and read from Full Control sounds promising. I especially like that they will carefully evaluate the best artstyle for the game. If the game can capture the atmosphere of the artwork pictures I have good feelings. It should be a balance between having nice details and still having to use a bit of imagination. The last part is really why you can still play games like Age of Empire 2, Diablo 2 or JA2 for that matter without puking out of your eyes. The graphics back then did a better job at being graphics than most of the current 3D high-tech games do. Not that I simply dislike 3D games.






Well alot of the members of the dev team are old JA fans and we knew that tackling an IP with an established fan base should be handled with care and the communities feedback is important.

As for the art style it's of course something that has to be taken into consideration because a game can be good and have lousy art but a game with good gameplay and art can be a great game, one that is memorable. The art style the game will have will do a lot towards setting the mood and feel of the game and that requires some serious thought.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318259] Tue, 30 April 2013 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3804
Registered:July 2009
Mauser
By the way, i think i remember that we had someone here a few years back who used the old JA2 and programmed a semi-learning adaptive AI for it, which could determine valid tactical approaches to certain situations on its own.

It was a purely experimental project for him and he has been off to work in other fields, but if we could find him again, maybe he would be willing to help with improving the AI of JA:F to a truly spectacular and challenging level?

After all, a proper AI that is vastly superior to the limited current 1.13 one is one of the cornerstones of success with the fanbase.

How does it look FC, do you have some able AI wizkid that can pull off something like that, to give the AI some actual resemblance of intelligence?
Do you mean Mr. Ladebeck by any chance? Feynman had some rather sobering words on the whole thing and how it's kinda hyped around here.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318261] Tue, 30 April 2013 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Thanks for all these posts. Kinda hard to keep track everywhere as you can imagine.

About AI: I passed it on to our coders and Thomas so that this topic can be discussed in an upcoming update somewhen. I'm no coder-specialist, so this has to be answered on Kickstarter directly.


And about involving the community: The good thing is, with previous titles which didn't appeal to the core-fanbase, that there's lots of feedback available how not to do it. Guess that's pretty much the best you can get actually since you know from the very beginning what to avoid. That's also the reason why we went to Kickstarter and why we want to involve the Community as early as possible.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318262] Tue, 30 April 2013 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
With Kick Starter you are kind of bound to please the community and to keep your promises. And this indirect promise motivates people to give even more feedback, everybody knows that you are listen.

We know you cannot please everybody and you will have to make tough decisions. As long as you are transparent, open minded and willing to discuss, that shouldn't be a problem.

For example take the stretch goals. I know for sure that they will not please everybody, but I'm also sure that you will make it somewhat reasonable, so that overall everybody can see, that you did understand what's important here.

Also you are talking about being a small Team. I really hope that you guys come along with the modding scene here. It would be a shame and a waste if we cannot work together, helping each other out.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318268] Tue, 30 April 2013 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
EXos
Peal
This is bitComposer Michael over there, he loves diving into messed up communitys, making his stand Smile


Is he a good guy? Or is this talk about dropping to his knees a load of BS?
Yes! He's a good guy, and the dropping to his knees was a metaphorical statement. He made similar pleadings when they were discussing the contents of the 2 big patches for BiA, and he did that on our behalf. Didn't we have enough of these discussions back in the day Very Happy

But I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what should be part of this new game, like some of the improvements the 1.13 project has brought us. I personally like the 100AP system and the car inventory system the most, what's your favorites?
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318271] Tue, 30 April 2013 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:139
Registered:September 2009
R@S
Yes! He's a good guy, and the dropping to his knees was a metaphorical statement. He made similar pleadings when they were discussing the contents of the 2 big patches for BiA, and he did that on our behalf. Didn't we have enough of these discussions back in the day Very Happy


I know he was referring to the "dropping to his knees" as a metaphor. I was just a bit weary toward BC employees...


R@S
But I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what should be part of this new game, like some of the improvements the 1.13 project has brought us. I personally like the 100AP system and the car inventory system the most, what's your favorites?


The 100AP I love too. The inventory system and it's customisable slots. The ENORMOUS amount of guns and items added including the re-skinning. The targeting cross-hairs and the huge amount of useful info it gives.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318273] Tue, 30 April 2013 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Some belts, vests and backpacks that added inventory space would be nice, but here's one of those places the 1.13 project took it too far. I'm referring to the limitation of some spaces, like some slots only accepting ammo. I think a simple system governed by item size would be more appropriate, otherwise the micro-management would be too frustrating for someone like me.

A lot of guns is fun, and the possibility for the community to add them is important. Since we need to consider the time and man power constraints of FC and this game, making sure it's possible is more important than having boat-loads when the game is released.

I also agree that tool-tips are an important addition. It's especially important when you're new to a game, when you haven't learned the governing rules of the combat engine. But I'd also like the option to turn them off once I feel I know them, it adds some tensions to the game even after you've played it for a long time.

[Updated on: Tue, 30 April 2013 19:25] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318274] Tue, 30 April 2013 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3804
Registered:July 2009
R@S
Some belts, vests and backpacks that added inventory space would be nice, but here's one of those places the 1.13 project took it too far. I'm referring to the limitation of some spaces, like some slots only accepting ammo. I think a simple system governed by item size would be more appropriate, otherwise the micro-management would be too frustrating for someone like me.
Yes, size and shape are fully sufficient to define that stuff. I don't know why someone added arbitrary restrictions and the bigger sub-mods got rid of them.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318275] Tue, 30 April 2013 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
Quote:
Reddit link, we will go live at 20:00 (in about 1
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318279] Tue, 30 April 2013 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3525
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
I am already there. Gotta eat and will come back with more questions.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318280] Tue, 30 April 2013 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow21

 
Messages:334
Registered:November 2001
Location: on route to San Hermanos
on it as well
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318282] Tue, 30 April 2013 20:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:139
Registered:September 2009
It is just written questions or is there a video aspect to this? And if so We need to record this stuff... Surprised
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318283] Tue, 30 April 2013 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor

 
Messages:432
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
I'm positively surprised by the artwork that I have just seen in the video update. I'm starting to have great expectations now as it is heading in the right direction for my taste! Wink Cheers
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318285] Tue, 30 April 2013 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:114
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
R@S
A lot of guns is fun, and the possibility for the community to add them is important.


If they're still going for that "humorous approach" for weapon names instead of the real ones, the ability to change them will be as important as well.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318287] Tue, 30 April 2013 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Great questions on the IAmA Shanga, Got me thinking about what should be added for the modding community, and one of the greatest things made possible in my mod was the possibility to add scripts to items. By having a USE ITEM function, we could add some really great stuff in any eventual mod.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318293] Tue, 30 April 2013 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3525
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

Well, it will be a balance between what Unity can do, what the modders panel which they promised want and what they can actually deliver on the budget.

If they keep things simple and not cram them into sealed, encrypted containers (which someone will break into eventually *evil grin*), then we might get some fun out of this.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318294] Tue, 30 April 2013 22:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:336
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Thor
I'm positively surprised by the artwork that I have just seen in the video update. I'm starting to have great expectations now as it is heading in the right direction for my taste! Wink Cheers

May i ask what video you are talking about please?
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318298] Tue, 30 April 2013 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:139
Registered:September 2009
Grim
Thor
-snip-

May i ask what video you are talking about please?
It's the one at the top of the kickstarter page.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318299] Tue, 30 April 2013 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
@shadow21:

paypal count is currently $3,234 Sad
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318300] Tue, 30 April 2013 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
EXos
It's the one at the top of the kickstarter page.


But there is no "artwork update" in it, the video has been untouched since the beginning of the campaign.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318302] Wed, 01 May 2013 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Shanga

If they keep things simple and not cram them into sealed, encrypted containers (which someone will break into eventually *evil grin*), then we might get some fun out of this.

Not to mention all the new players 1.13 will get, as BSM did during the BiA development. I think we got something like 5000 new players, many of whom seem to still play and enjoy the new version of the mod. So no matter what happens, we'll win Cool


JAF Team on IAmA
Will it be hyper realistic? No - its a turn based game and the AI can only do so and so much with the actions possible (run, hide, attack, intelligently use weapons it should know about etc)
I really don't want to dissect every word out of their mouth, but this statement warrants further discussion.

Does their AI have an awareness of the terrain in their routines? How well does their proximity code work, and how do they use it? So many questions that needs answering before I decide on the amount to pledge.


They probably have a working AI from previous titles, but I hope they don't think that'll be enough for this crowd. It would be a nice stretch goal, them putting a lot of effort into the AI. But if they don't reach it, how "good" will the game be? This is one occasion I'm certain us modders wont have anything to work with, so this should be brought to their attention.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318304] Wed, 01 May 2013 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carver

 
Messages:14
Registered:December 2010
Location: Deep South
I have had a look at this new JA. It looks more promising than any Jagged Alliance game since that Tracona expansion/stand alone title, which in the end wasn't anything special.

I hope you guys can raise enough money through KS to fund it.
I will back it.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318305] Wed, 01 May 2013 03:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3525
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
The Reddit for me was lukewarm. The biggest turn-off was this reply:

Quote:

If we cant get backers for even a small budget (350 IS small and can only be done because we got a lot of existing code and assets) - then there is no sound way of making a business case that warrants us to do it ourselves on our own money. We have to make a living and pay for food for 12 people. So we will most likely turn our backs towards JA and look at other IPs
THIS is the chance for the JA community to try to back a fan studio game.



I didn't see this in Space Citizen KS. Or in Elite KS. This is the BIG, HUGE difference between a KS project done by the creator of a game, who is ready to sell his kidney to get the game done and people rally behind and ... anyone else.

Major faux pas. I know they are right (the families do need food). But that kind of wording puts you from "hardcore fan of JA" pedestal to "we got this lucky break at the licence and we gotta make a buck fast". And please don't put this on our heads if KS fails.

The community is doing well and has done well for the last 12 years. We are like the Cubans who couldn't buy any new cars so they became expert mechanics. Everyone is trying to sell us these "modern cars" (well you know... the low option with no power steering, no AC and no CD... cause the budget is tiny... but hey! it's modern). Do a better job at this Full Control. PLEASE. Atm, we like our old Cubans more.


http://i.imgur.com/BkxYdMw.jpg

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 03:17] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318308] Wed, 01 May 2013 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:336
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Thank you for your pertinent questions there, Shanga. They brought some light on what to expect from the project... drawing some shadows too.

Elite and Star Citizen KS were not in the same situation imho, but i know how you feel. FC blames the community too much for my liking. Guilty is not a good lever to motivate people and make them pledge.

They really lack someone (an old timer or experienced developper) to incarnate the project and appeal nostalgic gamers like David Braben or Chris Roberts did. Both had great games behind them, gaining the trust and hope of potential backers.

This kickstarter is far from its end, i hope they will add more and more infos, videos, stretch goals and other people involvement(modders and Sir-tech elders).

I'm advertising the game as much as i can, and improved my pledge, but we can't do miracles when there's so few to show.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318309] Wed, 01 May 2013 03:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3525
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Now, going back to the game details. Let's score the replies:

Item combinations were at the core of JA series gameplay. Finding a scrapheap in JA2 meant finding treasure. The community later expanded this into "serious" weapon attachment systems. Which if any type of item combos will your engine support?

Quote:
We definitely want to include trash items and finding these randomly around the map.
This could unlock an entire crafting system, but this is not part of the core game for us in the minimum budget. For us we want to get a JA2 style engine up running with a new story - and make the story as big as possible inside the budget + enable modding for expansion.


-1 FC. JA-fuckin-1 had basic item combos in it. That was decades ago. And you still can't put something that simple into a game?

Sir-tech basically blew our minds 12 years ago by simply releasing one sector demo of JA2. The demo was so awesome that it got its own mods before even the full game was released. Will JA:F have a demo sector to show off (and possibly serve as a drive for a second KS campaign)?

There was no direct answer but the quote below explains why:

Quote:
We could also have waited until we had a half done game and a demo to show. But that would mean that the community would have very very little to say and change, and it would have been more of a pre-order kickstarter than a true community effort


-1. What? WHAT? W-H-A-T? You would ever go to a producer and tell him THAT? "Dear Sir, we didn't bring you a demo because we wanted to make exactly the game your desire!". Geeez...

Do you feel you underestimated the amount of time and effort that needs to be put into a kickstarter campaign?

Quote:
Not really. We knew there was a lot of work. We have through the last months been working on preparations and have had lots of advice given by very well known Kickstarter knowledgeable people that we are friends with. So we knew what was coming


-1. Your friends either had no idea what your are trying to fund or they are not good friends. If I was your friend I would have advised you to never go NEAR Kickstarter until you had like 1 TB of pictures, movies, interviews and texts to show.

are there going to be drugs in the game? what about mature themes in general?

Quote:
NO DRUGS? What do you mean. We got a drug cartel as one of the factions Very Happy
And one of our pledges is being made as your own pimp in your own brothel........


-1. For a moment I was going "hey cool, we are gonna be able to run our own brothel". Then I read this again. You know what pledge is that? This:

Pledge $10,000 or more
0 backers Limited (1 of 1 left)
A.I.M.ing to Win Tier: You

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 03:58] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318310] Wed, 01 May 2013 03:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
Totally agree that they lack someone, also a video introducing the devs should of been up at start of kick starter (where is that btw).

But yeah blaming the community after so many successful kickstarters in a short amount of time is something I cant understand.

They could of waited a month, and gotten in touch with Sir-Tech etc prior to starting the campaign. The initial pitch would of come across a whole lot better with a name and more to show.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318311] Wed, 01 May 2013 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Shanga

If we cant get backers for even a small budget (350 IS small and can only be done because we got a lot of existing code and assets) - then there is no sound way of making a business case that warrants us to do it ourselves on our own money. We have to make a living and pay for food for 12 people. So we will most likely turn our backs towards JA and look at other IPs
THIS is the chance for the JA community to try to back a fan studio game.


@shanga, good that you point this out, let's not just fly blind on the bandwagon.

But, lets be fair. I think he made this quote just to point out that they aren't capable of funding the game alone. He said also, that if KS fails they would try everything else to make this game happen, because they want it badly.

I believe him, but I also thought that they blame the community already. Well let me put it this way, he sounded a bid frustrated, but this is nitpicking on highest level.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 04:16] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318314] Wed, 01 May 2013 07:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR

 
Messages:105
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Shanga thats maybe a bit a negative kind of view.

If i read their answers i'm not realy suprised or disappointed, essentially it's what i've expected.

1. Crafting Items:
They write its not in the core game for the 350.000, instead of this they want concentrate on the story/campagn first.

- 350.000 is a low budged, they have to pay more then just a team of ~12 people for arround 1 1/2 year maybe. So they have to make hard choices, thats also important that they not run into the trouble that they overtake themself to much from the start up.
Story/campagn/gameplay - is the main thing, and after that i am sure they want craftable items like we want, and thats what i read.
Finish the basics, then the rest. Good choice and a honest answer in my eyes.


2. Their Preperation for the kickstarter:
Now i would say it was a bit naive, but like me i think they calculated with much more believe in their project, without have big things like a demo behind the hand. They decided to start with us from the beginning and of course to be covered with money from the beginning. What i can understand for a small studio without publisher support.
Thats not about blaming the community, but i also though with such a kickstarter you raise to a million in short time...
Ok now we see, that was wroooooong.
They just have their words and plans now. They have no well known games to give a real impression of their talents, and the dissapointment about all other attemps of a new JA3 and BiA is obviosly still all arround.
For me personaly its still dissapointing how much doubt there is instead of just give a new JA Game his last fucking chance with a handfull dollars, before it dies in shitComposers Arms now.

3. About the drugs thing:
Don't get your point in that Shanga, whats the problem with the 10,000$ pledge?
It just says there is one KingPin, maybe we can kill him and run the brothel ourself? Confusing.

4. recognize Unarmed
Well he wrote, "if you are hostile to them, enetering one of their domains..", speaks not against neutral places where you shoud been unarmed, an vague answer. And generic system never sounds good.

5. Kickstarter lower or higher then expected?:
Well, they expected more happiness by the fans... ME TOO.
But you explaining exactly whats happening here.
"Everyone seems to have this "I-AM-YOUR-SAVIOUR" attitude when it comes to making a new JA."

Thats what we fans learnd from the past.
I would not stay at this depressing kind of view, for me they just want to give us a new opportunity, which i welcome. And for me everyone should have at least 1 fair chance, i believe in good, and doubt brings forward nobody. Which counts more so when it comes to a Jagged Alliance title.


At the end i don't want end up with JA dead in BitComposers hand, and just for a try to change that i throw my money blindly into it.

Yes we have 1.13 for all times, but because of this we should not outclass all new tries from the beginning.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 07:40] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318315] Wed, 01 May 2013 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaethWalker

 
Messages:101
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC
Well ... Let's look at this logically from an investor's point of veiw. Pros and Cons.

Pro
1. They are actually turned-based gamers who want to make turned-based games.
2. They have actually made turned-based games before. This will be their 5th.
3. They have actually played Jagged Alliance and liked it "as is" and don't want to "fix it".
4. Thay have a small dedicated team that will focus on putting out the best game they can with the funds they get.
5. They refused coporate funding to keep full creative control of the product.
6. They're willing to spend a year+ on getting it right before release.
7. They're asking for input and actual help from both the fans and at least some of the original Sir-Tech team.
8. They understand the modding comunity and seem to want to make this game mod friendly. But, admit it will be restrained by the available budget.
9. "Our approach for this Kickstarter funded project is transparency. We will give you the naked truth in frequent updates, as you are our backers and are entitled to know where your contribution ends up."

Con
Well ... There really isn't a list of cons to put down right now ... mainly because we don't have enough information ... on either the company or the game they plan to sell us. At best, I can make an educated guess.

Basically, they are a very small team of dedicated and "highly skilled professionals" who had the JA license fall into their laps, though for only a one-shot deal for one game. They may or may not be able to do anything with the franchise after this initial game, even if it rakes in millions of dollars, because as far as I can tell Bitcomposer still owns it.

Now, considering what we do know so far, I'd have to say they did a "belly-flop" from the high diving board into the deep-end of the pool. Ouch!!

Why do I say that? 2 reasons.
1. "We have to make a living and pay for food for 12 people."
2. Bitcomposer

That puts a time limit on them. First they probably only have so much time to make this game before the license reverts back to Bitcomposer. Second and even more important to them, this is probably how they make payroll for the next 12-18 months.

Now, before I piss everyone at Full Control off (if I haven't already Smile ), nothing is wrong with this scenario. I'd have pissed my pants if I'd been in their shoes and this happened to me.

But, I do think they jumped in to kickstarter to soon. In my opinion I think they should have announced their intention to do a kickstarter and then did pretty much everything they've already done so far without actually starting kickstarter up yet.

They needed more input from the fans, modders and original Sir-Tech members. They needed to put more thought into what they were going to do with this game and what they really wanted from the fans and modders. And they didn't seem to even think about the Sir-tech team until Chris Camfield offered his help in an earlier post.

Really they should have waited until they already had a 1/2 dozen interviews under their belts and had been talking to fans, modders and Sir-tech for a cple of weeks.

Heck, I would have at least waited until the fans were screaming at me and making death threats. That way I'd know they were ready to give me money! Smile
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318319] Wed, 01 May 2013 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:139
Registered:September 2009
I can understand that tensions are rising but please lets not bite each other just yet.

Shanga

http://i.imgur.com/BkxYdMw.jpg


Sir-tech had millions to develop the first two JA's. So yes FC are trying to sell us the budget model.

But with a little love and attention...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zSitZNz5foY/TERDGW7yBxI/AAAAAAAAAMg/dc5Q-xJukoc/s1600/Dacia+logan+wtcc+2010+gt.jpg

...we can make it run like the clappers.

Though as a last thought. They should have waited a while with the kickstarter and gets some more materials ready.
But they started the KS and I really just want this game build.
We'll always have 1.13 but opportunities of a new proper Turn Based platform are drying up as BC clearly has the wrong idea. FC is small and the indi nature makes it hard for the to get up to the level we want but so far the pros far outway the cons. See deathwalker's post.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318320] Wed, 01 May 2013 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Peal
But, lets be fair. I think he made this quote just to point out that they aren't capable of funding the game alone. He said also, that if KS fails they would try everything else to make this game happen, because they want it badly.


Basically this. We will be able, after Space Hulk (if it succeeds) to put more money into the production. But right after Space Hulk we have to continue to work on something, otherwise we could also close down. Which we don't want. But the backup-budget we have isn't enough to fund JA:Flashback on our own. That's what we were trying to say. And we don't want to head back to bitComposer and ask for funding, that would give us a weak position.

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318321] Wed, 01 May 2013 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Shanga

Item combinations were at the core of JA series gameplay. Finding a scrapheap in JA2 meant finding treasure. The community later expanded this into "serious" weapon attachment systems. Which if any type of item combos will your engine support?

Quote:
We definitely want to include trash items and finding these randomly around the map.
This could unlock an entire crafting system, but this is not part of the core game for us in the minimum budget. For us we want to get a JA2 style engine up running with a new story - and make the story as big as possible inside the budget + enable modding for expansion.


-1 FC. JA-fuckin-1 had basic item combos in it. That was decades ago. And you still can't put something that simple into a game?


Please note that the crafting system we have in mind for trash items is something different of what you may think. You will be able to upgrade weapons and such things. The trash Item-stuff would be for totally different items.

Quote:

Sir-tech basically blew our minds 12 years ago by simply releasing one sector demo of JA2. The demo was so awesome that it got its own mods before even the full game was released. Will JA:F have a demo sector to show off (and possibly serve as a drive for a second KS campaign)?

There was no direct answer but the quote below explains why:

Quote:
We could also have waited until we had a half done game and a demo to show. But that would mean that the community would have very very little to say and change, and it would have been more of a pre-order kickstarter than a true community effort


-1. What? WHAT? W-H-A-T? You would ever go to a producer and tell him THAT? "Dear Sir, we didn't bring you a demo because we wanted to make exactly the game your desire!". Geeez...


See. We have a very clear idea of what we want to create (that's what the updates on KS are for). We know that we can realize that with the estimated budget. What we want to say is that we'd like to include the community already at the very beginning. You know this community very well and, let's be honest, it's a picky one. So imagine us being in the middle of the development. And than we realize "holy shit, they hate this". We want to avoid this actually. Otherwise we could also be in Action, if you know what I mean.

Quote:

Do you feel you underestimated the amount of time and effort that needs to be put into a kickstarter campaign?

Quote:
Not really. We knew there was a lot of work. We have through the last months been working on preparations and have had lots of advice given by very well known Kickstarter knowledgeable people that we are friends with. So we knew what was coming


-1. Your friends either had no idea what your are trying to fund or they are not good friends. If I was your friend I would have advised you to never go NEAR Kickstarter until you had like 1 TB of pictures, movies, interviews and texts to show.


Pretty much the same answer as above. However about the amount: No, it is pretty mcuh what we expected Smile

Quote:

are there going to be drugs in the game? what about mature themes in general?

Quote:
NO DRUGS? What do you mean. We got a drug cartel as one of the factions Very Happy
And one of our pledges is being made as your own pimp in your own brothel........


-1. For a moment I was going "hey cool, we are gonna be able to run our own brothel". Then I read this again. You know what pledge is that? This:

Pledge $10,000 or more
0 backers Limited (1 of 1 left)
A.I.M.ing to Win Tier: You
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318323] Wed, 01 May 2013 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:336
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Quote:
are there going to be drugs in the game? what about mature themes in general?

Quote:
NO DRUGS? What do you mean. We got a drug cartel as one of the factions Very Happy
And one of our pledges is being made as your own pimp in your own brothel........


The question was a bit eluded, i think. Yes, there will be a drug cartel, but do you plan to add drugs? I mean drugs your mercs can use and that have (side) effects on them. Jagged alliance 2 had "energy boost" and "regen boost", and Flugente added a plethora of other drugs in 1.13.
Can we expect to have some of them or new ones?
Larry would approve!
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318324] Wed, 01 May 2013 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
There will be drugs. We don't have to look at the age rating Smile
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318325] Wed, 01 May 2013 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow21

 
Messages:334
Registered:November 2001
Location: on route to San Hermanos
that is good news. there is nothing worse than a game that needs a pg13 rating Razz

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 11:57] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318326] Wed, 01 May 2013 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Gore, Drugs and Prostitutes. I mean, this is life. Why should we paint a flower with bees around it on the screen?
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318328] Wed, 01 May 2013 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3525
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
What I am just trying to convey to you is more easily summed up after a good night's sleep:

You took a HUGE and unnecessary risk asking for the $350k. You put yourself into between hammer and anvil without anyone asking you to. One one hand you have the backers who put their faith in you more than they put their money. It's not that there are not enough TBS/JA2 fans out there, btw, question is how many trust you to deliver. On the other hand you have a very limited budget and GIANT expectations that come with it. To pull such an amazing feat, hitting a perfect 10 with a JA assembled from reused parts, with a budget for snacks and coffee, it's something 99% impossible.

IF you trust the community to give you good, honest advice, listen to this:

1. Cancel this horrible KS.
2. While you work on Space Hulk, do your homework for JA:F.
3. Make a demo of JA:F together with the community.
4. Get old timers to test the demo and back it up.
5. Make a proper KS, asking for a proper budget of $1.5m or more.
6. Have each new amazing feature of JA:F presented and sanctioned by a well known modder.
7. Finish off the KS in grand style, showing off the demo at the end.
8. Have an old timer record a video and saying how much he likes the demo.

That's how it should've been done. You came here looking for honesty. Here's honesty. Because if you do this like you've started to do them, this will happen:

1. You might get the $350k
2. You will tell us you don't have the budget for X and Y.
3. We won't understand why X and Y can't be in the game, we put X and Y in 1.13 for free.
4. You will try to sell a very sketchy JA unsanctioned by the modders.
5. It will sell very poorly.
6. You will put a huge black spot on your company.
7. We'll carry on doing for another 12 years what we did for the previous 12.

I have this feeling the gaming studios don't really grasp the concept of modding. What a back-breaking job it is, done with less than proper tools, out of sheer love of the game and despite all the obstacles THEY (the studios) put in either by intent or ignorance. They seem to think we're playing with colored crayons and if we can put our own face into the game or make a new map, they've done their job and they can call the game moddable.

Answer me this: you have any ideas how many new maps have we made without asking for a cent, with a dodgy map editor that likes to crash very much? Thousands.

How many neurons died trying to figure out how to make the 12 year old JA2 engine do things it was never designed to do? More than stars in the sky.

[color:#CC0000]Nobody, but absolutely nobody is entitled to lecture us on what JA is. We put into it year after year after year of our lives. We never asked for a cent in return. And nobody is entitled to weight our faith in JA by asking us to put down the money where our mouth is. That's downright insulting. YOU have everything to prove, not us. [/color]

And since we're at the lecturing part, let me share you the fans vision of how publishers and game studios treated this franchise and its fans:

1. Fed up with being ripped off by publishers, the Siroteks and Ian Currie quit the boat and sell off to 3rd hand company called SFI.
2. SFI hires a 3rd hand studio to make JA3. When everything falls apart, we get no JA3, but a JAZZ/Hired Guns crappola. SFI has the decency to prevent JAZZ from bearing the JA name, but...
2. SFI finds out some russians are ripping off their license and selling a mod. They send in the lawyers and extort an agreement to sell THAT piece of junk as a sequel. JA2...Wildfire...please...
3. Before they go belly up, SFI does the single grandest move to earn eternal salvation of their souls and release the source code.
4. SFI admit their incompetence and sell out to bC.
5. bC comes and promises us a "modern JA". They make all kind of stupid moves they get ripped apart for.
6. JA2:R becomes JA:BIA and flops because it was never JA to start with. bC makes a last desperate attempt to get sanctioned by the community and brands their emergency patch 1.13. Sad. Nothing can save BIA.
7. bC realizes they've hit the JA curse face on. They have this great idea to make one final buck out of it, hire a 3rd hand studio and make the do a KS campaign without any demo, video or anything. As far as we know, JA:F could turn to be BIA repackaged or thin hot air.
8. bC rub their hands in expectation. Either way they can't lose. Their only regret is that they never went to KS in the first place, what a great idea to sell the game before it's even made...

Alternative ending:

7. The 3rd hand studio turns out the be the hero in the fairy tale. They - after 12 years - do all the right things in the right order, listening to the community for a change.
8. bC hires the little studio to make JA3 and that's a success and we all live happily ever after modding the hell out of it.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 12:56] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318329] Wed, 01 May 2013 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
All this talk about limited funding brings Hired Guns to mind. It was one of the better attempts of a JA game, the combat system was pretty similar to that of JA2. Where they failed was on the amount of maps and the lack of a Jagged Alliance atmosphere. FC seems to have the the right ideas to re-create the atmosphere, but will they have the time and money to create enough content to satisfy us?


So how about this idea, FC focuses on making a lot of maps, and the community helps with creating items and weapons. FC needs to have some quality control, and I think many of the asset creators would like some dough for their work. There is a solution for this, set up a showcase website where FC can show what the community have done. Let's say FC asks for 10 bux for a new weapon, if it gets that amount donated it will be added to the game. The creator will get 50% of the donated money, FC the other half. That would let FC work more on the important stuff, like maps, and the community on the stuff they can contribute with. A win-win situation.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318331] Wed, 01 May 2013 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3525
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
R@S
There is a solution for this, set up a showcase website where FC can show what the community have done. Let's say FC asks for 10 bux for a new weapon, if it gets that amount donated it will be added to the game. The creator will get 50% of the donated money, FC the other half. That would let FC work more on the important stuff, like maps, and the community on the stuff they can contribute with. A win-win situation.


I've suggested something of this sort, they said it's not what the want/can do.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318332] Wed, 01 May 2013 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
And we said that we don't need that. I wish I could tell you more about that. But that requires some talks to other persons. The thing is that we have access to a lot of assets already. So Art won't be our problem. Coding-wise we have a turn based system available. For a proper JA game we however need to evolve this whole thing and add a lot of things. This is pretty much the thing where we will need the most money for (well, and balancing stuff and reworking the assets we have plus creating new ones and lots of other stuff as well. But we don't need 1.5 Million for that to be honest). I hope we will be allowed to announce more on that soon.

And Shanga: We really don't want to insult anyone. Especially not the Jagged Community who did prbly the best job in terms of modding in the whole gaming industry ever. All we ask for is to help us to give players a Jagged Alliance based on a new technology so people can play around with that, too. Sure, it's also a possible to continue another 12 years. And we'd love to see that as well. We do not even want to displace the Zeus of turn based games, that ain't possible. But maybe introducing Hercules in his young years in addition to it.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 13:28] by Moderator

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