Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318334] Wed, 01 May 2013 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
It's all great what are you saying.

But what are doing is the problem. You want confidence, give us confidence. You want involvement, give us involvement.

Atm you give nothing and ask for a helluva lot.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 13:32] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318336] Wed, 01 May 2013 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
If this fails it will be to fails in succession. I think this will be thing that kill the future of Jagged Alliance games. People will see it as a failed franchise.

Also I agree with Shanga about canceling then making a proper kickstarter when the time is right.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318337] Wed, 01 May 2013 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3866
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Me , I'm like Mavis Reilly ..... I don't really know..... Smile

Hope for the best , fear for the worst . But , I shall put money in , it's surely worth a gamble ?


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318338] Wed, 01 May 2013 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Give me an Editor and I design you tons of maps. Give me artwork and I make you cut scenes / trailer with sick professional motion design. I'm Jack's free creativity everybody could use.

Shanga

[color:#CC0000]Nobody, but absolutely nobody is entitled to lecture us on what JA is. We put into it year after year after year of our lives. We never asked for a cent in return. And nobody is entitled to weight our faith in JA by asking us to put down the money where our mouth is. That's downright insulting. YOU have everything to prove, not us. [/color]


I know exactly how you feel. I felt the very same back in the bC forum, as I fought for a proper JA "remake". But you are at a stage where I was, after bC betrayed us with announcing they would go for plan&go. What did FC wrong so far that they would not deserve a proper chance from us all to try? Other than bitComposer they seem to really love Jagged Alliance. For bitComposer it is a cash cow, for Full Control it is a passion project. Full Control makes ONLY Turnbased games, what more could we ask for as proof?

And here comes the important point. They thought after they got so much positive feedback for Space Hulk, that we would see that they are "obviously" capable of making a proper turnbased Jagged Alliance. Now they realize maybe more than ever that Jagged Alliance is not only turnbased. I do care like you shanga and I can very much understand you, but let us not waste time into nitpicking. Let us try to make something together to help this campaign! Let's give them a chance. I believe them, and I trust them as much as I can, so far I have no reason not to.

This is a very short and quick moment in time, which needs our forward thinking, our passion and our co working spirit and not living in the past. As much as living in the past would be reasonable, I'll trust my knowledge of human and my intuition here.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 14:49] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318340] Wed, 01 May 2013 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
PR is PR.
Marketing is Marketing.

In life you have two options. Trust the shiny neon signs. Or ask what's behind them. I always go for 2nd option. I am a journalist turned gamer turned sysadmin turned entrepreneur. I made smoke, I packaged smoke and I sold smoke. Smoke doesn't impress me.

Kickstarter, you know, is just a contract of faith. They're not bound by anything but promises. Once they got our money, they can do whatever they want. And that isn't necessary what you or me want. And gaming companies usually have thick skins, it's a world where EA is the king and we know what EA is and does. If you do not get them to do it the right way BEFORE they get the money, you failed.

Answer me this, you dear and generous and so faithful. The backers put their money into this. The modders offer their expertise. The community offers them trustworthyness and a status. What are they putting upfront? Promises?

Where is the fair deal in that?

I am going to be ignoring this until the updates on the KS page show they're willing and able to do this properly. So far they don't seem to have much of a clue what they're heading into. Prove me wrong, FC, for God's sake. Make me sorry I ever raised an eyebrow. Please. But do it by showing us exactly what your plan is. Show us your "assets" that make you capable of doing a JA with $350k. Anything but 3 pictures and some vague promises.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318342] Wed, 01 May 2013 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:340
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Shanga, everything you said is hard but true (imho). Thank you for writing it.

In the end, as i don't think FC is going to cancel the KS, they have to put everything they got on the table, as soon as possible.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318343] Wed, 01 May 2013 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow21

 
Messages:333
Registered:November 2001
Location: on route to San Hermanos
Shanga
Show us your "assets" that make you capable of doing a JA with $350k. Anything but 3 pictures and some vague promises.

thats a valid point. if they have those assets they should be able to show them. be it a sector map, weapon renders, animations anything.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318344] Wed, 01 May 2013 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Shanga
PR is PR.
Marketing is Marketing.

In life you have two options. Trust the shiny neon signs. Or ask what's behind them. I always go for 2nd option. I am a journalist turned gamer turned sysadmin turned entrepreneur. I made smoke, I packaged smoke and I sold smoke. Smoke doesn't impress me.

Kickstarter, you know, is just a contract of faith. They're not bound by anything but promises. Once they got our money, they can do whatever they want. And that isn't necessary what you or me want. And gaming companies usually have thick skins, it's a world where EA is the king and we know what EA is and does. If you do not get them to do it the right way BEFORE they get the money, you failed.

Answer me this, you dear and generous and so faithful. The backers put their money into this. The modders offer their expertise. The community offers them trustworthyness and a status. What are they putting upfront? Promises?

Where is the fair deal in that?

I am going to be ignoring this until the updates on the KS page show they're willing and able to do this properly. So far they don't seem to have much of a clue what they're heading into. Prove me wrong, FC, for God's sake. Make me sorry I ever raised an eyebrow. Please. But do it by showing us exactly what your plan is. Show us your "assets" that make you capable of doing a JA with $350k. Anything but 3 pictures and some vague promises.


You are absolutely right shanga. The more they can show us the more backers they will get. And so far, there is more smoke/energy than gravity generating mass.

And also you are right, that if they will barley make 350k we will miss feature X and Y which totally sucks.

I'm totally with you! But a Indie Studio can not break the promises made in an kickstarter campaign. They will sink in an shitstorm, especially after the WarZ. So in other words, they have to make everything they promised otherwise they are game over. I think they are aware of that.

Also what proof would we need to confirm a company is really capable of making a good Jagged Alliance?

  • 1. They need an good turnbased Engine.
  • 2. Good artwork and story telling.
  • 3. Work with the community
  • 4. Work with the old boys and key modders
  • 5. Make modding as part of the game.
  • 6. Be in love with Jagged Alliance further understanding what makes Jagged Alliance so great.
  • 7. Are independent and not ruled by, as you said an EA kind of Publisher
All that is here, give me an point more and let us see if that is not the case. So what I try to say is, yes you are right they show us smoke. But the particles the smoke is made of, does have the right spin to turn into an Jagged Alliance Galaxy. Wink

*edit
so yes, PR is PR. Marketing is Marketing. If I would create an Game Developing Studio by myself, with the love for turn based games, because I love Jagged Alliance. I have no money, I cannot support 12 people to make an proper demo but I want to stay independent! Well I do have to show them at least some muscles so I wait until I can show them Space Hulk in action. This is not evil Marketing and no false flag PR. It's just all I got.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 15:32] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318348] Wed, 01 May 2013 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Shadow21
Shanga
Show us your "assets" that make you capable of doing a JA with $350k. Anything but 3 pictures and some vague promises.

thats a valid point. if they have those assets they should be able to show them. be it a sector map, weapon renders, animations anything.
Sadly, not yet. We're in talks about that however.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318350] Wed, 01 May 2013 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor

 
Messages:432
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
I don't know if this is asked already, but is there a multiplayer option planned? Or is it only a possibility when there is +$350000 funds raised?

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 15:59] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318351] Wed, 01 May 2013 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaethWalker

 
Messages:101
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC
The problem as stated is they really haven't showed us anything, except enthusiasm.

No offense, but been there, done that, didn't bother to get a t-shirt.

SpaceHulk isn't out yet and what's available to see doesn't really show much in way of gameplay, though the graphics look ok.

Frontline Tactics is out, but as stated by FC it's a very simplified F2P game and doesn't count. And we have Concept Art and a Video interview of a couple of guys who are enthusiastic to have a chance to make the game.

Basically that's it. I assume the big announcement was the Humble Bundle partnership ... since they've quit hinting at having a big anouncement. Personally I think they should have offered the 4 free (updated to Win 7) games at the $25 tier. Buy Flashback and get 4 free games to play with while you wait for the new one. That or lowered FB to $20 and tossed in the 4 freebies at that tier lvl. Much better to get a cple thousand more backers at that lvl, than at $5.

Go look at the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter drive. That's closer to what you should have and I still haven't supported them yet.

So, looking at their setup and yours, why should I support you? I want to, I really, really do. But if you were in my shoes and looking at your KS drive, knowing the history of JA and the failures since JA2 ... would you or any of your team support your own KS drive?

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 16:22] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318352] Wed, 01 May 2013 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow21

 
Messages:333
Registered:November 2001
Location: on route to San Hermanos
the thing is if you give five bucks you loose nothing and you can buy the game after its completion. every little bit helps.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318358] Wed, 01 May 2013 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
I agree with Shadow21, most of us are old-ish now and money isn't such a big deal. 5 bux is what I spend on lunch every day, so putting that into something like this is not big deal. I plan to give more of course, once I get a better idea of the possibilities for this game to be good enough.

But Shanga brings up some very good points(as usual Smile ), there are a lot of words, not enough substance. But I look at it like this, if they mean it when they say they want the input and suggestions from the community, it's up to the community to come up with good arguments for what should be in the final product. If we act like modders(and throw temper-tantrums at the slightest sign if criticism) our chances of steering this game towards the right direction gets less likely.

I've lost my cool a couple of times when criticized, but I've also listened and adhered to it when it came packaged in good arguments and reasoning. This is what our experience can bring to this project, even if I don't have proof that FC can pull this off, I'm confident in this community.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318359] Wed, 01 May 2013 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oilystool

 
Messages:25
Registered:April 2013
Location: Copenhagen
DaethWalker

So, looking at their setup and yours, why should I support you? I want to, I really, really do. But if you were in my shoes and looking at your KS drive, knowing the history of JA and the failures since JA2 ... would you or any of your team support your own KS drive?


I suppose if I was in your shoes my level of support would be based on what I know about the company, team size, the companies record. So I can understand the skepticism people can have.

Personally when I joined the company, I had my questions about the company when I applied for my current position and in the end I had a choice to pick between Full Control and another company. What sold me was the fact that they had a team that has had experience working together through previous titles, and the fact that Games Workshop actually had enough trust in a company to work own their IP. To me that was what sold me,the company has potential and the opportunity.

I wish we could have sat and polished a KS for as long as we would have wanted ,but game development is a business, I've worked with various games companies and the ones who made are the ones who already have a new game lined up before the current one was finished. While you are finishing one project you are in pre production for the next. That's where we are now.

I guess it's difficult to answer your question based on the fact I know business aspect of making games. Studios who make a game and do not have another project lined up take a huge financial risk. Big well known game companies always managed to keep the business side going and through experience and learning from previous productions have the potential for making great games.

Based on the information I have I would support our own KS, Full Control is the one job I've enjoyed the most and see the best future in.

My 2 cents


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318360] Wed, 01 May 2013 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
R@S
I agree with Shadow21, most of us are old-ish now and money isn't such a big deal. 5 bux is what I spend on lunch every day, so putting that into something like this is not big deal. I plan to give more of course, once I get a better idea of the possibilities for this game to be good enough.


http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/full/89.jpg

I bought freaking BIA. Of course it's not about the money.

It's about giving trust and endorsement and receiving something in return. I can only hope I made my point. Back to mumbling silently now.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318362] Wed, 01 May 2013 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
Same unfortunately bought BIA. I'm impressed you managed to play that travesty for 140+ hours Shanga lol
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318363] Wed, 01 May 2013 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
batanen

 
Messages:24
Registered:May 2013
DaethWalker
So, looking at their setup and yours, why should I support you? I want to, I really, really do.

I can give you a few reasons of mine. If you want a turn-based Jagged Alliance strategy game from an enthusiastic indie game studio that is ready to cooperate with modders then you should back them. Developing with a modding support in mind is not too common. I hope modders and developers are able to co-exist and cooperative friendly together for a greater cause. The reason I backed them was that they seem to have the very right vision of having core JA2 gameplay mechanics. I also want to have a new story; I am not too interested in playing a setting of Arulco / Deidranna anymore (have also finished Urban Chaos, which was an excellent story campaign!).

As they're specialized in creating turn-based strategy games, I think they're a worthy studio for Jagged Alliance game (maybe not as good yet as Nival and Silent Storm, but still - to be honest, I haven't played Silent Storm much but owned it many years). I know Full Control probably had better to wait reviews of Space Hulk to convince more people, but there is no turning back now. This might be the only/last chance to get a good commercial prequel for Jagged Alliance franschaise. When publishers/developers see - "oh there was just a few thousand people interested in" - a commercial sequel/prequel is not likely going to happen other time. I wish fans had enough faith in this!
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318364] Wed, 01 May 2013 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Shanga
R@S
I agree with Shadow21, most of us are old-ish now and money isn't such a big deal. 5 bux is what I spend on lunch every day, so putting that into something like this is not big deal. I plan to give more of course, once I get a better idea of the possibilities for this game to be good enough.


http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/full/89.jpg

I bought freaking BIA. Of course it's not about the money.

It's about giving trust and endorsement and receiving something in return. I can only hope I made my point. Back to mumbling silently now.
Hey, I'm a bigger sucker than you since I bought it twice, both the steam version and a boxed copy. Never touched crossfire though, had the opportunity to look under the hood and had a pretty good idea by then. Still, I'm always optimistic, it makes me a happy camper Very Happy

But BiA is also a good way how not to do it, both from devs and from the community. The amount and type of whining we saw from the community was not likely to change the devs minds about changes suggested. I think(hope Smile ) we all learned that lesson.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318366] Wed, 01 May 2013 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
scope100
1. Crafting Items:
They write its not in the core game for the 350.000, instead of this they want concentrate on the story/campagn first.

- 350.000 is a low budged, they have to pay more then just a team of ~12 people for arround 1 1/2 year maybe. So they have to make hard choices, thats also important that they not run into the trouble that they overtake themself to much from the start up.
Story/campagn/gameplay - is the main thing, and after that i am sure they want craftable items like we want, and thats what i read.
Finish the basics, then the rest. Good choice and a honest answer in my eyes.

2nding this. Furthermore, "crafting items" is a wide field to ask for. Just imagine, the one asking the question was thinking of things like "barrel extender" from vanilla JA2 (which find quite a few fans of realistic game play quite ridiculous, anyway) - the one being asked thinks something like "merging 'mine craft' into JAF?"
And yes, with the HQ thingie they intend, some serious crafting system can be invented later on.

Quote:
3. About the drugs thing:
Don't get your point in that Shanga, whats the problem with the 10,000$ pledge?
It just says there is one KingPin, maybe we can kill him and run the brothel ourself? Confusing.

Shanga (mis-)interpreted the answer about drugs and brothel as "cool, player can run the brothel" but then realises that the hint on the pledge reward was just to show, that drugs and brothel are still in game. He then blames this misunderstanding solely on the other side, forgetting that misunderstanding (especially in written communication) is a mutual thing ...

Quote:
4. recognize Unarmed
Well he wrote, "if you are hostile to them, enetering one of their domains..", speaks not against neutral places where you shoud been unarmed, an vague answer. And generic system never sounds good.

2nding again.
And again, it's been a very vague question. If I wanted to know if covert ops like Flug invented for 1.13 or something from "commandos" or so was in the plans for JAF - why not ask this explicitly?
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318367] Wed, 01 May 2013 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Sam_Hotte
scope100
1. Crafting Items:
They write its not in the core game for the 350.000, instead of this they want concentrate on the story/campagn first.

- 350.000 is a low budged, they have to pay more then just a team of ~12 people for arround 1 1/2 year maybe. So they have to make hard choices, thats also important that they not run into the trouble that they overtake themself to much from the start up.
Story/campagn/gameplay - is the main thing, and after that i am sure they want craftable items like we want, and thats what i read.
Finish the basics, then the rest. Good choice and a honest answer in my eyes.

2nding this. Furthermore, "crafting items" is a wide field to ask for. Just imagine, the one asking the question was thinking of things like "barrel extender" from vanilla JA2 (which find quite a few fans of realistic game play quite ridiculous, anyway) - the one being asked thinks something like "merging 'mine craft' into JAF?"
And yes, with the HQ thingie they intend, some serious crafting system can be invented later on.


Since I haven't come this far in my playing around with the Unity engine, I'm not sure if it's possible. But how about externalize this to a file where you just have to put the item names. Like Item A + Item B = Item C. I'm pretty sure we'll have the possibility to add items, and the code needed isn't that hard to add to the Base Upgrade stuff, if done correctly from the start. Or so I hope Smile
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318368] Wed, 01 May 2013 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Yea, yea, last night i felt like tearing them apart more than I do today.

But it drives me up the wall when I see things start wrong, because I know they will end up wrong. You can't come to me and say "I'll build you a house for $5. Trust me, I can do it". You are better off saying you have an uncle in Niger who left you a huge inheritance.

So far they have this nice shiny wrapping of words around a box. And the box is empty. All I am asking is to put something in the box. InXile has 15 people working on Wasteland 2. I don't think the Frontier team is much bigger. Yet the were able to handle pre-production and have decent preparation for Kickstarter.

For example, those guys @ Space Citizen, Wasteland, Elite, the gurus of the old school gaming, could've just came to me and said "I am David Braben. Give me money and I'll make you Elite 4". And for fuck's sake, I would've given him money without asking him a word. But instead they worked their butts out. Braben has done more interviews and video updates than he has done in his entire life. They worked like there was no tomorrow. That's HUGE RESPECT for your fans. And they got back what they gave in.

Beside that, Elite and those other remakes never had the failure history JA has. And so many broken promises.

And despite all that, I am to trust AGAIN in nice words? Am I to ask for no proof before I endorse a studio I never heard of? Why? FC might be the most talented gaming studio in the whole world. They could be the coolest and most honest guys in the whole world. If all the have to show for their good intentions are promises... excuse me, I reserve the right to be less than excited.

Get your act together FC. Respect the backers you have and you WILL get more.

@Flugente - I've moved your post to it's own topic. It's a great idea.

@others - Go to the new topic and post your wishes for JA:F. Topic is here:
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/318369/Community_Wishlist_for_JA_F.html#Post318369

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 18:32] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318370] Wed, 01 May 2013 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Shanga in action is so awesome Very Happy
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318376] Wed, 01 May 2013 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Yes, R@S, something like this I was thinking of here. Smile
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318378] Wed, 01 May 2013 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Shanga
Beside that, Elite and those other remakes never had the failure history JA has. And so many broken promises.

That is the biggest point here. I hope they can "in good old rapid prototyping style", do a better pitch on KS by adding more visual content. I think now is the exact right moment to motivate them. Also I will do an video, but I have to take some time and right now I'm very busy. Maybe over the weekend.

Shanga
And despite all that, I am to trust AGAIN in nice words?

Yes you should, because this time it's different, I hope you can see this somewhat.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 19:20] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318389] Wed, 01 May 2013 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khargoth
Messages:4
Registered:March 2010
@JAFTeam,
if you got no material from Flashback except the concept art thats already at the kickstarter page hurry up making the vid you wrote about.
Imho it would be best if you take gameplay material from JA2, explain short the best aspects of the game and tell what you wanna improve and add.
Right now if someone who played JA2 visits your Kickstarter the first time and wanna know whats the project about, what you like to improve compared to JA2, he has to read an enormous amount of text.
If someone who never played JA2 visits the Kickstarter he will have a hard time finding out whats so great about JA at your KS page.
Damn my english, I hope you understand what I mean.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318390] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Peal
Shanga
And despite all that, I am to trust AGAIN in nice words?

Yes you should, because this time it's different, I hope you can see this somewhat.
Because Danes are good people Razz

Because you want to see another Jagged Alliance game.

Because you have faith in this community.

Because "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... it's not nice to fool people" Very Happy


But enough kidding around, I see your point about trust and understand it very well. And you have to meet me half-way and see mine about faith.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318391] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
R@S
Because Danes are good people Razz

Whole Nordic folks are good (you should know that). At least we didn't try to conquer the rest of the world like the germans for example. Razz

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 20:11] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318393] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Realy good explanations Shanga, i hope Full Control will read them carefully.

For me an important point of yours was:
What is possible with 350.000 in the end, can a successful Kickstarter with an Jagged Alliance missing X and Y because of low Budget ever be what we want?

And what could they reach with a realy good preperated kickstarter?

I want to believe that with a good Kickstarter, where they show us Game mechanics, proofing us that they can do it, it realy could be much more.

Hope FC is listening to you guys, and if the Kickstarter fails (what seems to happen), i hope they start another one, better prepared, instead of giving up.
And then, last but not least... i realy hope we are enough JA Fans left to bring the money then.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318395] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
malthaussen

 
Messages:91
Registered:January 2005
Location: Philadelphia
I think FC are opportunists. In one sense. I think they very much lucked into acquiring this license from BitComposer, and snapped up the opportunity like a trout taking a fly.

The difference between the JAF kickstarter and the other ones is that they don't already have the game half-designed before they started the KS. And this is what is pissing off a lot of people -- apparently Shanga among them -- that they are asking for support before they've produced anything. I can understand why they wanted to do that, bacause as Javier pointed out, the studio needs to have another project in the pipeline to keep everybody eating while production of Space Hulk finishes. Hell, isn't Inxile doing the same thing? Wasteland 2 hasn't even reached a playable alpha yet, but they funded a whole new project already. Of course, they have the rep to pull that off, whereas FC are unknown. But it is proper, sound business practice.

But everybody keeps asking for hard data when there isn't any yet in place. This KS has begun in pre-production. All they have are ideas, and they want to involve the community to see which ones work, and which ones don't, and maybe to garner a little love for the project along the way. I wonder, in re the Kickstarter, not if it is financially what they expect/hope for, but rather if the storm of controversy (and sometimes outright hostility!) they've stirred up surprises them. It kind of surprises me, but I guess a lot of people are blaming FC because BitComposer killed their puppy.

An old friend of mine, now dead alas, was fond of reminding me that "timing is everything." While it may have made business sense to start the KS now, the timing may have been a bit off. Setting aside all the other Kickstarters that have drained the wallets of contributors, proposing the game in pre-production probably was a mistake. Especially in light of how BitComposer screwed the pooch over BIA, people need to see concrete proof that this game will fulfill its promises. Once burned, twice shy and all that. It would be sad, though, wouldn't it, if this Kickstarter failed because BC wanted to involve the community from the beginning?

What bothers me the most about the people who won't support the Kickstarter yet, though, is this implicit attitude of "Nah, I'm too smart to fall for that shit." They'd rather be right, than blow a small piece of change on the chance that FC can deliver what we all want. Enough of that, and this Kickstarter will fail, and then those who refused to contribute can wrap themselves in their smug sanctity and tell us all they told us so.

-- Mal

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 20:18] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318396] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
malthaussen
I think FC are opportunists. In one sense. I think they very much lucked into acquiring this license from BitComposer, and snapped up the opportunity like a trout taking a fly.

The difference between the JAF kickstarter and the other ones is that they don't already have the game half-designed before they started the KS. And this is what is pissing off a lot of people -- apparently Shanga among them -- that they are asking for support before they've produced anything. I can understand why they wanted to do that, bacause as Javier pointed out, the studio needs to have another project in the pipeline to keep everybody eating while production of Space Hulk finishes. Hell, isn't Inxile doing the same thing? Wasteland 2 hasn't even reached a playable alpha yet, but they funded a whole new project already. Of course, they have the rep to pull that off, whereas FC are unknown. But it is proper, sound business practice.

But everybody keeps asking for hard data when there isn't any yet in place. This KS has begun in pre-production. All they have are ideas, and they want to involve the community to see which ones work, and which ones don't, and maybe to garner a little love for the project along the way. I wonder, in re the Kickstarter, not if it is financially what they expect/hope for, but rather if the storm of controversy (and sometimes outright hostility!) they've stirred up surprises them. It kind of surprises me, but I guess a lot of people are blaming FC because BitComposer killed their puppy.

An old friend of mine, now dead alas, was fond of reminding me that "timing is everything." While it may have made business sense to start the KS now, the timing may have been a bit off. Setting aside all the other Kickstarters that have drained the wallets of contributors, proposing the game in pre-production probably was a mistake. Especially in light of how BitComposer screwed the pooch over BIA, people need to see concrete proof that this game will fulfill its promises. Once burned, twice shy and all that. It would be sad, though, wouldn't it, if this Kickstarter failed because BC wanted to involve the community from the beginning?

What bothers me the most about the people who won't support the Kickstarter yet, though, is this implicit attitude of "Nah, I'm too smart to fall for that shit." They'd rather be right, than blow a small piece of change on the chance that FC can deliver what we all want. Enough of that, and this Kickstarter will fail, and then those who refused to contribute can wrap themselves in their smug sanctity and tell us all they told us so.

-- Mal


QFT
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318398] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
As a kid I was only willing to do holidays with my parents in Denmark, because the Softice was so good Very Happy
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318402] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@malthaussen - we can only hope InXile will be a model for FC regarding both the way they involve the community and the material the put up on KS to attract pledges. If they managed to get 60k+ backers they must've done something right, no?


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318406] Wed, 01 May 2013 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:114
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
Peal

[*] 6. Be in love with Jagged Alliance further understanding what makes Jagged Alliance so great.


I think that is what is lacking the most. Those guys call themselves fans, and they may be, but there are fans and then there are fans. They might have played their few hundred hours of share but they are far away from the thousands of hours the really committed fan has put into the game playing and modding it.
A bit of a stretch, but if they were really committed fans, they wouldn't have had to register here but were registered since quite some time and maybe even have modded some of the game before. I still have not read anything convincing why they want to make a JA at all.
JA2 was a deep and complex game from the start and 1.13 did almost double that. Now JA2 came into being with a lot higher budget and a bigger team, and 1.13 was reached through love and dedication to the game and a century of experience actually playing.

So comparisons with 1.13 are actually are bit unfair, I don't think any small time developer can do what the community achieved.
They might be able to pull of a slightly updated JA2 vanilla clone in a modernized engine though, but lacking the years of experience with JA2 itself they will never ever be able to reach the depths of 1.13 and the countless other mods.
No need to in my eyes though, this would be ok actually, just make it moddable, but the way I see it, they won't even make that perfect clone since developer's pride comes along so to make it "their" Jagged Alliance. Which it never can be. They want to tell _their_ story.
Things might be different if they were the original developers, but they aren't. As far as I can tell, they are not even dedicated fans but merely fans. I honestly doubt that they truly understand JA2 and what makes it a great game. Don't want to be offensive with all that, but I just don't see it happening for good.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318408] Wed, 01 May 2013 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
Shanga
@malthaussen - we can only hope InXile will be a model for FC regarding both the way they involve the community and the material the put up on KS to attract pledges. If they managed to get 60k+ backers they must've done something right, no?


To be honest I hope not. Because what InXile did is very cheesy. But they could do it because the whole kickstarter thing was kind of "new" back then. I'm talking about telling the story about the bad publishers and how they ruin everything and than presenting the good kickstarter community as "the solution".

If you want a shitload of money, yes play this card, catch people emotionally in an zeitgeist where capitalism dominates everything and even blocks science progress.

If I would lead an KS campaign I would play this card and I was scarred in the beginning but to be honest now I'm glad FC didn't.
With Jagged Alliance you speak to an intellectual audience which got already fooled by bitComposer. By coming along the cheesy and easy way most of us would have gain reason to distrust FC and to discover an actual "evil" marketing plan in order to milk the cash cow a bid more.

So yes they pitched us simple, but also honest and sincere. It's the Nordic way I guess an that is what I like about it.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318409] Wed, 01 May 2013 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
@systemfehler
yes a comparison with 1.13 in unfair, but also ignoring 1.13 would be dump. I would try to integrate as many 1.13 as I could because I got a blueprint for awesomeness basically for free.

And that is what I want from Full Control, an new Template for Jagged Alliance, the customisation is for our boys in da hood. So I agree with you that they should focus on the basic parts first.

Did you read all updates on Kickstarter? I think it sounds so so so good. The story alone, so much potential!

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 21:30] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318410] Wed, 01 May 2013 21:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
If they provide us with a ja2 playthru video with commentary i'll believe they are true JA fans. There will be a bonus if the walkthru is on 1.13 SVN latest version. This way they'll learn what fans like and want.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318412] Wed, 01 May 2013 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow21

 
Messages:333
Registered:November 2001
Location: on route to San Hermanos
thats a great idea!
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318415] Wed, 01 May 2013 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skott Karlsson

 
Messages:68
Registered:May 2001
Location: Oldsmar, FL. USA
I just read this whole thread. A lot of good ideas and comments. And wow, Shanga. You are the man! LOL Seriously though. Well said. I think you captured how many here feel. I'm still on the fence myself but I'm doing more reading about the KS project and what there is. I don't post a lot but I'm paying more attention now to whats going on with this project. I will continue to do so.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318425] Wed, 01 May 2013 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@Peal - I didn't mean borrow the cheesy ideas from InXile, just the sheer volume of work and their solution to involve the fans into creating content for the new game. I just mentioned InXile because of this:

Quote:

Hell, isn't Inxile doing the same thing? Wasteland 2 hasn't even reached a playable alpha yet, but they funded a whole new project already.


To be more precise, if FC does a proper KS and prove they have their heart where it should be, I would have no problem backing their next project while JA:F is in alpha.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 May 2013 23:12] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318434] Wed, 01 May 2013 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
systemfehler

 
Messages:114
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
@Peal I am totally with you on that ignoring 1.13 is a bad idea, but I doubt that they have got the whole grasp of what 1.13 is and what's in there.
I doubt they played it much in depth, I even doubt they played much JA2 since 1999.
Potential is well, just that. I remember playing Duke Nukem Forever thinking "man this had so much potential". And that game at least got released.
So they are going to make a JA with lots of wasted potential while they best had just made a full copy of the JA2 and 1.13 mechanics, as unoriginal and unsatisfying that may be for a developer. I don't want to exaggerate, but right now right here in the forum lies probably the best turned based strategy game there ever was on a silver platter. No need to reinvent the wheel.

I've read the updates and yeah it sounds good, but then it's just words. I've often got the feeling they are telling exactly what we want to hear.
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