Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318735] Sun, 05 May 2013 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
@derek
I think the guys at FC are aware of the inventory thing by now, and even if this had slipped by unnoticed to the end of the KS, the following community discussions would have surely brought it to their attention.

And FC has been clear on this since day 1, they want the community involved in the development.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318736] Sun, 05 May 2013 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Complains that the community wants too much. Wants 1:1 copy of 1.13 with better visuals and AI ...
Suuure.



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318738] Sun, 05 May 2013 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
God these comments everywhere.... looks like stupid people allways have the most to say.

Somebody is whining arround because he don't like hamsters, and another one pulled back his money from the kickstarter because the sun is shining today.

There should be a possibilty for a global internet ban.

[Updated on: Sun, 05 May 2013 20:24] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318739] Sun, 05 May 2013 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
batanen

 
Messages:24
Registered:May 2013
R@S is right. This time the community is here to ensure that everything goes well right from the beginning. We're not letting them to miss anything important / will remind them stuff they might have forgotten/are not aware of.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318742] Sun, 05 May 2013 21:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Actually I wasn't aware of the sector inventory. But you know, I'm a community guy. Not making decisions in the end, but collecting feedback and such things. If I could code, you'd be fucked. But I can't. Which is why I'm lurking around in weird places like the Pit to collect Feedback Very Happy
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318743] Sun, 05 May 2013 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3864
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Well my moneys in the pot, $75 and best wishes to you guys . DO NOT let us down :armsfolded:

Now , finish SH and get bloody well started . Smile


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318744] Sun, 05 May 2013 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Actually we'll do both if this succeeds. Full pre-production can than be started with more people involved (which means: Setting up a final style guide, GDD, TDD, ADD and so on. These things are quite often the most work...). And thanks for the pledge!
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318745] Sun, 05 May 2013 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3864
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Your'e welcome :thumbsup:


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318747] Sun, 05 May 2013 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
JAFTeam
If I could code, you'd be fucked. But I can't. Which is why I'm lurking around in weird places like the Pit to collect Feedback Very Happy


Sir, you made an old bear laugh (yea, i know, sounds like a growl). Keep up the good work on KS updates and who knows...

and btw, I am much harder to impress than this kilt wearing softie GM of ours...


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318748] Sun, 05 May 2013 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3864
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Didn't say I was impressed , but it is worth a shot ... Cool


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318767] Mon, 06 May 2013 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
malthaussen

 
Messages:91
Registered:January 2005
Location: Philadelphia
@Flugente: Nek linked the Tacticular Cancer intervie on p 35 of this thread, here is the link again:
http://www.tacticularcancer.com/content.php?id=4076

-- Mal
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318775] Mon, 06 May 2013 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2047
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
It's looking a lot better with the recent updates Wink


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318780] Mon, 06 May 2013 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
I've read both the latest interview and the reactions on the rpgcodex forums. Can't say I blame FC for being shocked, anyone not involved in the JA saga would've been. But it proves how much your friends at bC told you about this when they dropped the hot potato in your lap...

Did they somehow tell you "take this, make it TB and you'll totally rock"? What a joke. Just going around fixing something they fucked up ain't going to fix anything. Let me let you on a little dark secret. The RTwP system in the end didn't turn out half bad as it was supposed to be. IT WAS THE REST THAT SUCKED BALLS. From faces, to personalities, to no RPG, to stupid lame "quests", to weapon load-outs, to weapon themselves, to inventory, to combat, to progression, to enviroment, etc, etc everything sucked and felt like a cheap xerox copy of a Rembrandt.

So, no. RTwP was stupid because it wasn't needed. And because it was attached to JA2 name when it was called "Reloaded". It was offensive. But in itself, for any other strategic game, it would've worked.

After the interview it's even more clear you expected warm and fuzzy applause. Just because. Hmm... let me remember when we last had warm and fuzzy... I think it was about 11 years ago, when Ian said they MIGHT make a JA3. Then it went all to hell.

But if you think the people that criticize you are doing you a a huge dis-service, you're a dead wrong.

[color:#CC0000]The only people who've been giving actual help are the ones who pointed our what IDIOTIC moves you made and what you LACK. If you choose to sulk we're not the soccer-dads that like the G-Squad memes, it's your loss.[/color] We honestly regret you had to spend $30k to prepare for the KS, too. Anyone here could've helped you prepare better, for free. Let's point out a few obvious facts:

Kickstarter Campaign (or how to waste $30k):


  • You admitted you had a month to prepare for KS. You joined here only after it went live. Why, in the name of God, throw out so much knowledge BEFORE doing the KS? Either you think you're smarter than everyone here or ... you thought just creating some smoke would win everyone over. Both wrong assumptions.
  • It took you 9-10 updates to come up with decent details about what people are pledging money for. You actually give more info in your interviews than in your KS updates. You still haven't covered modding that would've given you the ultimate argument when the shitstorm debates hit you ("if you dont like what we do, we made it so you can mod it").
  • You claim to have a vision for JA because you are as hardcore fans as all of us. Yet you put on the top priority list adding a sector inventory, which is already in the game. Honest mistake for someone who only played JA2 for a couple hours.
  • You knew bC screwed us bad when they made all BiA merc faces look like shit. Instead of serving us a prerendered image of a gun I could've googled in 3 mins, you could've spent a day and some talent and come up with a "young Ivan" image. Fuck it, even Ivan in a tutu would've brought you pledges because WE DIG HUMOR. We don't dig Disney memes a lot, though.
  • You seem quite annoyed to include modding as one of the TOP MUST-HAVE features. Really? That's all you can say to the people who allowed you to actually play with the license now? It makes us wonder who is taking who for a ride here. Do you think of the modders as a nice badge you can put up on KS to attract more money and then get rid of? I hope you are ready to answer really hard questions there, because they will be asked.

[color:#CC0000]The sooner you quit the primadona act and realize we want you to succeed more than you ever dream, the better you will be. But if you think we'll let you do a trash job at it and just fuck up the license because... you know... everyone did it before you... boy you're in for a fight.[/color]

PS: If you have learned by now how to read a critical message the above list includes quite a few hidden tips on what people expect of you. But then again, you can also keep on blaming the big-bad-mean fans who don't want you to take JA to new heights of gaming.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 May 2013 14:03] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318786] Mon, 06 May 2013 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
Agreed Shanga the KS especially at the start was the PERFECT example on how NOT to run a kickstarter. You came into it thinking you are Brian Fargo. Hell the original pitch was a lot worse then Torment.

And now here we are almost 2 weeks later and you still only have 1 video. The video introducing the team which should of been up from very start of kickstarter is still no where to be found.

The only reason you have any pledges is due to the JA name it certainly isnt due to your running of the campaign. For fucks sake just bring the Curries on board to save this bitch.

You thought everyone would welcome you with open arms which is why you failed to contact anyone (ex Sir-Tech, modders etc) until you starting the kickstarter...Bah HEY FC take a look at Stonehearth. They have neither a top quality IP or all star dev team yet their pitch and campaign doesnt suck.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318787] Mon, 06 May 2013 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Any amateur, home-made project of a game would've raised $150k by now by simply being honest. Like, the next second after bC dropped the golden goose in your lap, you'd be here and on every JA forum in the world and post a simple message like this:

"Guys, we're FC. We got this license. We have a team and tools to make games. Tell us how you want JA to be like. We be honest and tell you what we can make. And if we all agree, we'll have a go and try to fund it by Kickstarter".

That's all. No "we have a vision for JA". No "we are going to improve JA". No "we have such a great track record and you guys are just mean".

And we would've backed you heart and soul. And you would've made headlines and make Ian Currie and the old team say "PLEASE LET US BACK YOU". But instead of that you have nothing. Just some scribbled down notes about how YOU want JA:F to be. Let me tell you something. If you want to make YOUR JA, you have two choices:

  • Be Ian Currie. You aren't.
  • Fund it with your own money. You aren't.

The rest of the debate is fluff. Your track record speaks zero about your vision of JA. Your planning for the KS speaks zero about the grand plan you have for JA. And you do everything in your power to alienate further the only people who could've saved your butt.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 May 2013 16:06] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318789] Mon, 06 May 2013 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Hey Shanga,

I don't agree with you on the fact that RTwP wasn't the main problem. Well, I agree that it wasn't the main problem at all, but it started with that. On the other side it didn't stop there. It is symbolic for what went wrong with all that stuff. From the character portraits to the missions. From the weapons + modifications to the whole style of the game. But RTwP is also part of this general problem. Yes, it worked somehow but still wasn't that great at all.

So did we expect to get applause right from the very beginning? No. Again. We didn't. Are we shocked cause of the negativity? Somehow. A bit. Are we shocked that it is a hard way to our target? Then again, no. And about the negativity, well, we did know there was some, but we didn't expect people to be THAT scared of anyone touching the franchise. A lot of wrong things were done to Jagged. So it's on the other hand quite understandable. We don't blame people for that by the way. We're just a bit...surprised.

About the 30k thing: You know, salaries are being paid. So people were moved away from Space Hulk. They were, of course, prbly moved away anyways for pre-production of whatever project. Sure, some other things had to be payed too, like video cutters and stuff.

What I agree on is that it was a mistake to not be around here before the KS. That's something we wouldn't do again.

About the modding thing: We will cover that in a future update. As said before: We are right now in talks with several modders from the Pit. Just because some details haven't been cleared out, it doesn't mean it's not happening while we talk Wink

About the sector inventory: I am now using it. But then again, that was my mistake. Thomas however used it before and says that it's still not perfect (although 1.13 made some interesting additions but is yet maybe too complex for beginners, so that is a matter of explanation than).

For the characters: This will be also covered in a future update. We thought (which was maybe wrong) that adding stuff over the whole campaign would be the best way instead of killing people with a shitload of Infos right away and no one would get the point. Maybe, yes, maybe that thought was wrong.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318790] Mon, 06 May 2013 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:340
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
I don't know what to add, Shanga's speech is so relevant to me.
We want to provide constructive criticism.
I know you (FC) are working hard on your Kickstarter, but you are not giving sufficent material and pertinent answers to the audience.

By the way, where are the big announcements and the video you promised (for last week...)? People can't back your project on smoke and promises. They need something to build their dream on, hope, and faith...

And, please, don't blame the "fans", it won't make people pledge any better. For your information, i pledged as high as i could, and spread the word to my network, with good advertising, but the KS is an empty shell at the moment.
I had a look at several other KS projects, at different stages, on different subjects... They all had much more material to catch people's attention: gameplay videos, demos, interviews, clear and appealing stretch goals... Even if you don't have any connection to the project, many of them are attractive. You want to be part of it!
Now look at yours...
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318791] Mon, 06 May 2013 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
RTwP was wrongly attached to JA. It was like going to Vatican and saying "Dudes, you know that symbol of yours... yea, the cross... let's change that into something more hip, more trendy"... Gameplay-wise, it's an ok system and "The Fall" used it long before BIA with decent success. But JA isn't "The Fall".

As for holding back on updates, the morale is pretty low now. And you could really really really use a boost of faith.

PS: I know you are in contact with modders, but that's not the silver bullet. The question is not whether the modders are capable of turning JA:F into a great game, it's what help you're going to provide, as a company, to help them do it. Because I know our modders. They're such a dedicated crowd they can take any turd of a game (...BIA?) and turn it into something decent.

The boost of faith, modding wise, isn't what modders could give to JA:F. It's what JA:F could give to modders. And that's what we're lacking news on.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 May 2013 16:21] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318794] Mon, 06 May 2013 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
JAFTeam
I don't agree with you on the fact that RTwP wasn't the main problem. Well, I agree that it wasn't the main problem at all, but it started with that. On the other side it didn't stop there. It is symbolic for what went wrong with all that stuff. From the character portraits to the missions. From the weapons + modifications to the whole style of the game. But RTwP is also part of this general problem. Yes, it worked somehow but still wasn't that great at all.

I disagree (not to please R@S Wink ).
RTwP is only the last drop on all the weird stuff they made with BiA.

I'm sure, if everything else you mentioned would have been great stuff and to please JA fans, there would have been quite some players admitting that RTwP does add to realism and difficult gameplay ("the second it took me to raise gun and take an aim, that bastard used to dive for cover behind these sandbags and I missed the shot ...")
So, IMVHO, RTwP is different from turn based, yes, and that made the shit even worse ("it's crap - and not even turn based anymore!") and bad feelings toward it came IMHO more from the "TB is not broken, so don't fix it" PoV - but I still think, without the other crap it could have been "that great" with RTwP.

However, shouldn't be discussed here - AND DON'T YOU DARE making JAF not turn based ... Wink
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318795] Mon, 06 May 2013 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Shanga
The boost of faith, modding wise, isn't what modders could give to JA:F. It's what JA:F could give to modders. And that's what we're lacking news on.

Ah see! Now it gets interesting! We're actually trying to get them as consults so they can help us from the very beginning in terms of files (which format, how to prepare them best for them and so on). But also about other stuff. They'll also get the Alpha very early so they can jump in to tell us what we do right and wrong in terms of modding. And we will try to support them as active as possible when they have questions about certain things.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318796] Mon, 06 May 2013 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Sam_Hotte

However, shouldn't be discussed here - AND DON'T YOU DARE making JAF not turn based ... Wink
We'd need a new engine for that. And fuck that real time stuff. Srsly. Still gets me confused while overtaking a sector.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318802] Mon, 06 May 2013 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaethWalker

 
Messages:101
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC
I'm completely new to Kickstarter and haven't actually pledged to any game yet. All I've done so far is lurk around and wish I had a million dollars to back my favorites.

But, with that lurking I've come to one main opinion about it and both the people who are asking for money and the people who are giving the money.

Kickstarter isn't only about the money. It's where you go to make dreams come true. That may sound corny, but it seems to be working.

So, when I found out about your campaign about a week before you went live. I thought to myself that finally our dreams were coming true for a real Jagged Alliance. I then started my own quest to raise as much of my own money to get on the ground floor of my first Kickstarter campaign. I was going to come up with as much money as I could and pledge as much as I could, more than I could afford. Because this was the one game I really wanted and have been wanting for more than a decade.

So, you can imagine both my supprise and disapointment when you finally went live. Sad

Kickstarter is where you go to make dreams come true. For both the developers of their product and the fans and consumers of that project. It's where people invest in the dreams of others.

Instead what we got was a company that seemed to be thinking inside the box instead of outside the box. A company that basically was more interested in getting by on macoroni and cheese instead of steak and potatoes. A company that decided it needed to offer the lowest bid to win the prize, when there were no other bidders. A company that instead of "shooting for the moon" and asking for money to build a rocket, decided to see if they could get on their neighbors' roof and wanted to buy a ladder.

Your biggest problem and a disapointment to all of us was your "goal". $350,000 is barely enough to pay wages to what has to be the lowest paid team of developers in the gaming industry.

You went into this campaign all wrong. You went in as accountants instead of dreamers. You looked at the "bottom line". You asked yourselves what is the lowest amount of money we can ask for and still make a game and feed our families. That was the wrong attitude for Kickstarter.

The main question you should have asked? How much money do we need to give gamers the best Jagged Alliance game to come out since Sir-Tech made it? How much money do we need to make a game so addictive that gamers lose sleep, forget to eat, call in sick and/or play at work. 1 million? 2? More?

And truely be crazy about it!!! This could have been your one shot at greatness!!! To reach for the moon!!! If you want to just be a small independent game company then you shouldn't have done this. Kickstarter is where you go to become a huge independent game company. It's where you go to be able to make your dreams come true, whatever those dreams may be. Dream big!!!
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318803] Mon, 06 May 2013 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:340
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
I only have two words to add:

Stretch Goals
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318804] Mon, 06 May 2013 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
I honestly don't think they could of asked for more. Maybe 500k at the VERY most. ONLY way they could of asked for 900k and then stretch to 3m+ would of been with all the Sir-Teck folk on board from start. Or some with say Ian Currie as a stretch goal at 1.5m.

Fact is Full Control is no inXile or Obsidian both of whom have the ability to come into Kickstarter at pre-production and ask for vasts amounts of money.

Hell Full Control isnt even a say Larian Studies who did have some previous titles which people have heard of. And Larian only managed to get 1 million for a game that was pretty much finished.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318817] Mon, 06 May 2013 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaethWalker

 
Messages:101
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC
@ Vortexdr
And you're still looking at the "bottom line".

Presentation is the key.

What they should have done is said:

We can do "A" for $350 - $500k - the $350,000 number isn't so bad as the lack of what exactly we would get for that. Sure $500,000 would be better. But, I could live with $350,000 if I knew what I was getting for that. 20 hrs of game play? x amount of sectors, mercs, weapons, etc....

Then for stretch goals they could have said:

We can add "B" for 400k, "C" for 450k, etc...

Basically even after 2 weeks on Kickstarter, all I really know is it's a video game, it's turned-based and it's based on Jagged Alliance ... oh, and they really like Hamsters. Smile
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318818] Mon, 06 May 2013 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
I'm pretty sure they dont know exact numbers. No game that has come to Kickstarter pre-production was able to produce those kind of figures, I do agree it be nice to get an approximate guesstimate.

All we know is they have an engine used in multiple IOS games and Space Hulk. How much work is involved in modifying what they have to suit JA which has much more depth then Space hulk is anyone's guess.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318831] Mon, 06 May 2013 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Decado2

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2002
Sure, presentation is key and actually defining what will be achieved for 350k would be nice, but that and stretch goals are aren't terribly meaningful until they convince us (or at least try!) that they can pull of a good JA2 successor.

It's completely lacking and, IMO, why this kickstarter is moving so slowly. FC doesn't seem to want to acknowledge/address this (from their comments and lack of action) so they're pretty much dooming the KS. Whatever they think, the support shown so far is *not* a reflection of the demand for a new JA game.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318835] Mon, 06 May 2013 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
Decado2
Sure, presentation is key and actually defining what will be achieved for 350k would be nice, but that and stretch goals are aren't terribly meaningful until they convince us (or at least try!) that they can pull of a good JA2 successor.

It's completely lacking and, IMO, why this kickstarter is moving so slowly. FC doesn't seem to want to acknowledge/address this (from their comments and lack of action) so they're pretty much dooming the KS. Whatever they think, the support shown so far is *not* a reflection of the demand for a new JA game.


Agreed, what bugs me more then anything is that FC insists on saying they were prepped for this kickstarter.

How they can say that is beyond me. You would of been prepped with the content you have if you would of launched this a year+ ago but for this point in time you aren't anywhere close to being prepared.

I mean there is NOTHING to show but walls of text... best we got was an alpha/pre-alpha from Space Hulk (which wasnt linked to your KS until people mentioned it) you simply cant expect the masses to pledge if you have 0% to show.

This should of been launched in maybe two months or whenever you had the Curries etc on board but that's beating a dead horse so i'll just drop it.


I'm still supporting but please get your act together, seeing A Jagged Alliance sequel struggle to make a meager 350k isnt the fans fault...Hope it works out, I really, really do

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318836] Mon, 06 May 2013 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
If you were Ian Currie, would you put your name on something that doesn't exist in any shape or form except some very blurred screenshots? I wouldn't. I might have some sympathy for the pressure FC is under now, but that's what happens when you dive into the stinkhole the previous devs left along and you don't do your homework.

[color:#CC0000]Until I am 110% convinced this can be done properly, Bear's Pit is not officially supporting this. People who are members and staff are free to endorse the game in their own name, but that will be their own choice. When Bear's Pit will be endorsing this you will hear it from me and nobody else.[/color]

We will continue to grill them for answers and hard data and I encourage everyone to do so.

Maybe this could bury this KS, but another bad game will kill JA. For good. And we cannot let this happen with our seal of approval on it.


Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318838] Tue, 07 May 2013 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shepard

 
Messages:22
Registered:January 2013
Location: Chitzena beach
Vortexdr
Agreed, what bugs me more then anything is that FC insists on saying they were prepped for this kickstarter.

How they can say that is beyond me.


This. Their KS campaign is bad, more poor updates won
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318843] Tue, 07 May 2013 02:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Somehow FC expects the community to magically deliver the stuff they lack. And even if I could pull rabbits out of my hat, that wouldn't happen in the few days they have until KS runs out.

This kind of project takes a lot of discussions and debates. Any serious project does. It's a fracture of logic here, you see. They're saying they want our input and they seem to actually take notes of what we're saying, on one hand. On the other hand, they put everything under an impossible deadline, asking for funding before anything has been set in stone. I spend more than 30 days to plan a vacation with the family and I am to think this is enough for a solid project like the revival of JA?

Maybe I am not Danish and I don't understand the logic behind this. If anyone is born there, I admit, I am retarded, I don't dig it... but explain to me in baby steps, how this works:

How does someone promise you "anything you want" before actually knowing what you want? And based on that promise of "anything-you-want-but-we-dont-yet-know-what-you-want" come and ask for funding? And open arms support?

I am not trying to be offensive to Danish people. I am just trying to figure out if we've grown too pessimistic and bitter over here. Maybe in Denmark people do that and it's a clash of cultures. Enlighten me.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 02:02] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318845] Tue, 07 May 2013 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
Shanga
If you were Ian Currie, would you put your name on something that doesn't exist in any shape or form except some very blurred screenshots? I wouldn't. I might have some sympathy for the pressure FC is under now, but that's what happens when you dive into the stinkhole the previous devs left along and you don't do your homework.


Ehh obviously Ian would need to have close to the last say on most design decisions for him to put his name on it/endorse it. And bringing a designer on is never really done mid production when you already have an alpha etc. These kind of discussions usually happen before production so i don't think its a stretch.

However an agreement with multiple parties (Ian, Linda, Chris ) that is something that is unlikely to be worked out in a month. And FC only contacted the old Sir-Tech folk once people mentioned it.

Ian did mention he would like to do another JA, which is the only thing giving me hope it might just happen (optimistic, i know)

I just want to see another turn based JA, i don't really give a fuck who makes it as long as those people convince me they have the ability to do so. Kickstarter is a great platform for it just look like how classics like BG, Torment etc performed.

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318846] Tue, 07 May 2013 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
teatimecoder

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2013
Location: UK
You should really listen to people like Shanga because they are the ones that care. Myself, whilst I wish you well because you seem like nice folk, I'm just curious but don't care either way.

You can always launch the kickstarter again in a few months' time after you've released that warhammer game and had time to prepare some rough working concept so there's some meat on the bone. Unless the license deal has strings attached to the success of this kickstarter.
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318847] Tue, 07 May 2013 02:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2006
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Though not being Danish Dynamite, it's quite easy to explain (from my PoV, As far as I understood):

"We want to make a turn based JA in the Cold War setting, New island and so on. We're gonna use unity engine, our TB tools and such for it. We want to raise the funds for this by a KS campaign before hand (as we're currently busy with SH and want to immediately start working on JA:F when SH is finished). Tell us how you would like JA:F in this frame conditions to be and we'll try to implement this."
That's the deal AFAICS.

If this' a good deal or auspicious for a KS campaign is a different question ... Wink
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318849] Tue, 07 May 2013 03:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Yes, Sam, but we've been telling people what we want since that JA3 Wishlist forum has been started. For more than a decade we did it. And it's not like we want a fucking flying saucer with a green martian coming out of it and doing a hoola dance, is it? All we ever wanted was the minimum of respect my grocer shows me when he doesn't try to sell me an expired can of beans. Proper trade. You make a good product, I pay you the money for it and tell others is edible and that they should shop from you. Instead we get rotten stuff, packed in shiny new cans to look new. Over and over again. They just changed the manufacturer on the label.

And in the end they come and look down upon us and say "oh well, you know, there's not so many of you left, no big brand would come to your stinkhole, you take what we give you or you'll starve to death". Like somehow it was OUR fault they fucked this up so royally. Like the value we added to the brand by years of carefully tending to it ourselves only makes us more prone to get hoaxed even further.

Up to now they used to come here, promise the earth and moon, only then to deliver junk. And when we refused to buy their junk, they vanished silently into the butthole they crawled out of.

Now FC comes and does it all again. Earth and moon. But they want money in advance for it.

Sadly, that's the only difference so far, FC, between you and them. You might have a better view of yourselves when you look in the mirror, but this is the company you joined. And all those retarded scammers that came before you had greater expertise, bigger teams, bigger budgets and probably played more JA2. So far, the only thing that sets you apart from your predecessors is that you want to get payed before you work.

You have exactly 16 days to prove you are not another leech feeding off this name. And that's not a whole lot.

16 days. And a fucking lot to prove.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 03:35] by Moderator



Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318851] Tue, 07 May 2013 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:260
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
I don't know, I'm torn back and forth...

I think it's a shame this KS runs so slow. Blaming FC only is so easy. It's always easier to destroy something rather than to build something. I'm really pissed that this community and all other genre fans aren't able to see something good if it comes along. I'm pissed that there aren't 700k already.

Yes FC has to proof a lot, yes FC steps into an hornets nest, yes FC may underestimated the task. It's so easy to blame them for everything. But what have I and you guys done so far? Nothing like hot air. I wanted to make an Video or even to put news on the dead taktikzone. Yeah I'm fucking busy as hell, but in the end so far I did nothing. Shame on me! Blame me!

For fucks sake they did a lot right! They are listening to us, they are reacting to our concerns in the KS updates. They have an good angle on the game, so far there is almost nothing wrong with the Vision they've got for JAF.

For what are we waiting? For superman to come by, cleaning all the air pollution on the planet, so ppl are getting happier and more likely to pledge? Ain't gonna happen! They are a small studio and this is a pre-production pitch, WAKE UP! Maybe they announce cooperation with some modders or even ex Sirtech, maybe the team video will be charming and full of passion. But this and the panorama map is probably all we get.

Shanga is right they could do much more, but we as well.

PS: If some one is giving you his hand, you don't look at it searching for dirt.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 04:55] by Moderator

Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318853] Tue, 07 May 2013 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser

 
Messages:773
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
Again i can only fully agree to everything Shanga said up until now.

The Kickstarter campaign looks like an impending failure right now, mainly because it was started prematurely and pretty badly planned and managed.

All the content and updates we see until now should have been available on day one as a primer for the campaign.

The whole campaign should have been started only after FC had proven their ability and credentials after releasing at least a proper Space hulk demo and the availability of a lot more impressive artwork and preview material.

FC should have worked the fanbase and communities a lot more early on, using their potential to make their project known to the proper target audience way beforehand, thus ensuring a way better start on KS. The first impression really is crucial here and it lacked direly on that part.

Also, in case the KS support would not suffice for a proper full scale game, instead they should have set a somewhat lower minimum goal of around 200.000 $ or so, with which they could have at least make JA:F a smaller, shorter and content restricted downloadable game as a proof of concept, and then use KS stretch goals to either expand that or use another KS campaign to fund its expansion into a proper full price game later on. The good thing about KS is, that you are funding projects, which can be split into multiple modules or stages to be funded separately at different times. Make one campaign to fund the prototype/demo, if that succeeds, then make another, larger one to produce and market the actual product. Is that such a hard to grasp concept?

Overall, this could and should have been approached a lot smarter and more professional, with at least one able person working dedicated over months to prepare the fanbase and the KS camapaign related PR.

So, until i can see the KS getting close to succeeding and FC getting a lot more serious and professional about it pronto, i will also withhold my personal support and pledge for now.

I still do really want you guys to succeed, but i also want you to step up your game considerably and actually SHOW us the passion and dedication for the game, instead of just mostly talking about it!

Oh, and @ Javier: that AK model looks ok. This quality and detail level should quite suffice, as well as the artstyle. You know the modders will come up with something better and more detailed and accurate eventually, but for your initial work this should be spot on.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 09:34] by Moderator


☆★GL★☆
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318854] Tue, 07 May 2013 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
derek

 
Messages:150
Registered:April 2010
Peal is completely right
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318857] Tue, 07 May 2013 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Have have a different view in this matter, big surprise huh Smile

A KS is where someone asks the community to bet some money on something, and that's what it is, a bet. It's up to FC to convince us to bet as much money we feel it's worth (giving better odds that they'll give us a big reward).

PROTIP: Never bet more money than you feel you can afford losing.

I see a lot of potential here, they have a good game world builder as base(Unity) and claim to have a basic TB engine from their work on Frontline Tactics and SH. What they want funding for is improving the TB engine to the high standard of JA2's combat engine. It's not like they're planning to re-invent the wheel, they already have something to work with.

Here's where they are asking this community for help, to improve their work so it'll be a worthy successor to Jagged Alliance. In their KS they are asking for funds to pay salaries for the guys making the game assets and working with the code. That's it.

All this talk about this and that disrupts this message, people tend to get hung up on small details and how something was worded. people also complain about how the KS is being run, which isn't really the point here, the point is what they will do with the money.

When I first head about the KS, my first instinct told me it was going to fail. But along the way I changed my mind, some of the things that matter came to light. They are very skilled working with the Unity engine, they have a working TB combat engine to improve, and the best one, they are asking the most knowledgeable people to help guide them.

My two
Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318862] Tue, 07 May 2013 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Shanga

 
Messages:3529
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Whoa whoa whoa.... What the fuck are we talking about here?

We offered them a fucking whole lot more than they ever invested in this.
  • We offered them a brand name, a license we kept alive despite the desperate efforts of their friends at bC to fuck it up.
  • We offered them a community that's not supposed to exist 12 years after the game was pronounced officially dead.
  • We offered them contacts into one of the most talented and dedicate modding community there is.
  • And a public place to come and plead their case; because they've prepared so well they don't even have their own fucking forum.

The only thing we didn't offer them yet is our credibility. Excuse me if I ask for a bit more before I stake that.

Now what did they bring to the table?
  • A license they didn't buy, just misteriously landed on their lap (why them? why not 1.13 crew? why not Ian Currie? nobody will know).
  • A portofolio consisting of 3rd party work they did for others, a sketchy iphone game and a video of an unfinished game.
  • A laughable claim that they spent $30k on THIS kickstarter (for a wall of text and one video... and a hamster meme).
  • "Pay us or we walk away" attitude and a zero-risk "we must eat" investment strategy.

So WE are now the bad guys huh? WE are supposed to bend over backwards because we didn't do enough? It's our fault Google is full of them and every comment page on the whole fucking Internet is asking them "who the fuck is FC and why do they have the balls to ask for money without anything to show"?

My God. Get a fucking grip.

PS: R@S, I agree any KS is a bet. But not a blind "all-in" bet.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 May 2013 12:41] by Moderator



Previous Topic: The BIG BAD BEAR meme thread (with an occasional hamster snack)
Next Topic: Design-A-Merc - Jake "Holiday" Porter
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Tue Nov 19 01:32:21 EET 2019

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01689 seconds