Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » #JAFDEV » List of possible weapons(pre-1990)
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322488]
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Sun, 07 July 2013 04:24  
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 Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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The Cz 75 is a very nice gun, as are many others Wolf listed.
I am a firearms fan and I like more guns BUT I dislike 'more guns' when guns that are in all actuality equal are made unequal for diversity sake.
And honestly, especially in the realm of handguns, there are large swaths that are the same.
Another thing, weapons firing the same ammo will do the same damage. Barrel length will have a small impact on this, but only when looking at a significant barrel length difference. Going from a handgun to a SMG or from a short barreled gun like the Colt Commando to an M-16 both might justify a point or two of damage. However a 5 inch barrel instead of a 4 inch barrel is NOT going to change anything.
For instance, this is how I'd do handguns.
It doesn't pay to have 380 acp, 9mm makarov, 38 special, 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 44 special, etc.
I recommend 7.62x25, 9mm, 45acp, and 44 magnum. The first three are common military calibers that can also be used to feed SMGs while the 44 magnum is a significant increase of power and in a big revolver closes the range gap between pistols and SMGs.
Now, in JA2 I viewed the Beretta 92F as the 'standard' pistol.
Range 12 Damage 22 6 AP first shot 5 AP second Capacity 15
Regardless of handgun the cartridges would do the following
7.62x25 = 20 damage, however, would have a bonus vs armor
9x19mm = 22 damage
45 acp = 24 damage
44 magnum = 28 damage.
Pistols generally have one of two actions, Single Action or Double Action (which reverts to single action after the first shot) Double action makes the trigger pull harder as a safety feature. I'd style the DA trigger as having the same AP cost for 2nd and subsequent shots, but the initial shot would be 3 AP higher rather than just 1.
Tier 1. This is a starting handgun that is going to be replaced quite quickly. It's real main purpose is that the opposition will have it, and getting it from them gives you ammo for your better weapons plus something to sell.
-Tokarev TT. Range 12, 7.62x25, 20 damage, 6 AP first shot 5 AP second, Capacity 8
(CZ 52 or CZ M57 would work as well)
-Smith and Wesson 39. Range 12, 9x19mm, 22 damage, 8 AP first shot, 5 AP second, Capacity 8
(Walther P5, Sig 225, H&K P9s, etc would also work as well)
Tier 2. These are better than the pistols above, if the merc carries a sidearm as a spare weapon after SMGs and assault rifles become prevalent, it's going to be one of these (or a machine pistol version)
-Beretta 92F. Range 12, 9x19mm, 22 damage, 8 AP first shot, 5 AP second, Capacity 15
(CZ-75, Smith & Wesson 59, Walther P88, modernized Browning HP, Astra A-80, Ruger P85, etc. would work as well)
-Glock 19. Range 12, 9x19mm, 22 damage, 7 AP first, 6 AP second, Capacity 15, 2x durability
Note this is a striker fired pistol which uses a hybrid action which is why the different AP figures. May not be different enough to warrant inclusion.
-Colt 1911. Range 10, 45 ACP, 24 damage, 5 AP first shot, 4 AP second, capacity 8, 2x durability.
Known for it's stellar pointability and crisp trigger, this gun shoots a bit faster than most other single action autos listed. The loose fitting parts gave great durability but less than stellar accuracy.
-Smith and Wesson 645. Range 12, 45 ACP, 24 damage, 8 AP first shot, 5 AP second, capacity 8.
(standard double action 45, Sig 220 and Ruger P89 would work as well) May not be different enough to warrant inclusion
-Sig 210. Range 18, 9x19mm, 22 damage, 6 AP first shot, 5 AP second, capacity 8. Sig 210 is an EXCELLENT pistol in the accuracy realm, offsetting it's lower capacity. Also sells for a good price.
-Ruger Redhawk. Range 18, 44 magnum, 28 damage, 8 AP first shot, 7 AP second, capacity 6.
(Smith and Wesson 29, Colt Anaconda, would be equivalents) Double action revolver is double action for ALL shots, so the same AP penalty for first shot as a double action with only 1 AP less for follow-up shots.
[Updated on: Sun, 07 July 2013 04:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322726]
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Mon, 15 July 2013 04:56
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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You have to look at the weapons with a sense of understanding and be able to assign meaningful differences, then see what is reasonable to be found on some little island, and finally recognize a few exceptions where the 'rule of cool' may alter the other two factors.
Let's take shotguns for instance.
Suggestions:
1983 Armsel Striker
1983 HK CAWS
1987 Pancor Jackhammer
1979 Franchi SPAS-12
198X 198X Daewoo USAS-12
1972 Atchisson Assault Shotgun
1898 Browning Auto-5
1937 Ithaca 37
1950 Remington 870
1961 Mossberg 500
1989 Benelli M3
#### Shotgun, generic, two barrels AL
1887 Winchester Model 1887
Now, a few things to consider...why have some of these designs not grown in popularity in either military or civilian use? (Yes in some cases laws prevent civilians from getting them, but if something really is revolutionary or even a moderate improvement police forces and military special forces tend to gravitate towards it)
I think we have the seed of a good idea with the following:
Shotgun, generic, two barrels
You can probably find 50 different makers of double barrel shotguns but none are significantly different from the other, at least in terms of game play, even side-by-side vs over-under the differences are so small as to be irrelevant for a game like this.
Now, I've mentioned it before, but the 'power' of a gun comes from it's ammo. All these guns would do the same damage even if it is old and stupid vs new and cool. The difference would be in recoil control, reliability, reload speed, and capacity.
For shotguns in general reloading would be a bit different' Shells would be in 'groups' not in magazines, and reloading would put a single round in the gun.
I'd start out with a double barrel shotgun cut down to good combat length. It would have the capacity of 2, and would reload singly.
Next I'd have a sporting pump gun, again cut down to 18-22 inches. From the list above you've got Remington 870, Mossberg 500, Ithaca 87, and I'll add the Winchester model 12 and later winchester 1300.
For most of these there is no significant difference beyond a shell here or there for capacity. The only reason it's worth including all these names is because this means if you try and link a real name to a shotgun you have more angles to turn to and it's less likely you'll end up with the "Iceberg 5000" or "Benington 970" instead of the "Mossberg 500" and "Remington 870"
Using 2 3/4th shells you have the following capacities
Remington 870 and Ithaca 37 = 4 in the tube 1 in the chamber
Mossberg 500 = 5 in the tube and 1 in the chamber
Winchester 12 = 6 in the tube and 1 in the chamber.
Now, maybe it's reasonable to include one 4, one of 5, and one of 6...but then a generic "pump shotgun" with a capacity of 5 may be sufficient (especially if that leaves more time for developing different ammo types)
Next up would be the semiauto sporting shotguns, again cut down to combat length. Here's where you'd find the Browning Auto-5, the Benelli M1 (Super 90), Remington 1100, Winchester Model 50 and similar.
Again you can break it down to the 4 +1 of Winchester and Auto-5, and the 5+1 of the Remington 1100 and Benelli M1.
The only difference from the above would be a slightly lower recoil, one less AP to fire second and subsequent shots, and if some sort of variable durability is included, these would be a bit less durable than the average gun (while all the pumps would be a bit MORE durable than the average gun)
Now, in both the pump and the semiauto in addition to simply cutting a hunting length barrel down to something more managable, people added extenders to the magazine tube to bring it to the same length as the barrel, which generally means 7+1 or 8+1 capacity. Aside from a better capacity there'd be no real change. For guns like the Benelli M3 which is pump and semiauto I'd just model it on the semiauto because the only time you'd use pump is with specialty non-lethal or if you were having jams, which really is beyond the scope of this game. The SPAS 12 I'd model after a pump because even though it is supposed to be semiauto and pump, the semiauto is terribly unreliable.
Short Barrel Shotguns.
In addition to having a double barrel cut down to about a 12 inch barrel, you'd also have the basic pump and semiauto also cut down. you'd stick with the 4+1 and 5+1 capacity, but there'd be a slightly lower AP cost to fire and recoil would be increased. Note that these guns would all retain their shoulder stocks.
Exotics. Here's where most from the above list would show up, and many of them would have some sort of hinderance.
CAWs - while when measuring the bore you'll find it to be 12 gauge it cannot use standard 12 gauge ammo, and hence I'd throw it out of the game.
StreetSweeper - Armstell Stalker - this is the shotgun with the revolver function and 12 round capacity. However you have to work the front handle to the side and then back down, a very awkward action. This gun would have a high capacity but it would have a very high AP for first shot and second and subsequent shots would have the same AP cost. Also, low durability rating, and EXTREMELY slow to reload (reload as single)
Now, you may have seen videos of some that appear to be semiauto. The deal is these have a spring in the magazine that you wind up prior to firing which assists in what is basically a double action trigger pull. This method was so cumbersome they went with the 'cocking handle' side thingie. I can't see any reason to try and bring the complication of trying to wind a spring in the magazine complication into JA, not when an alternate version exists that would work more directly with standard gameplay.
Jackhammer - totaly unrealistic to include, but it is possible that the 'rule of cool' would offset this. It is a 10 shot semiauto and full auto capable shotgun feeding from a 'cassette' which would be treated like a magazine in JA, but one that would take a signficant AP cost to change. Other than it's weight, this would be in general a slight improvement over a more traditional combat shotgun.
AA-12/USAS-12 - these guns are different but share a lot of similarities. Really these are guns where the designers looked at existing automatic rifle operations and then beefed them up and tweaked them to handle shotgun shells which are a lot wider but operate at a lower pressure. Here again it only works when you apply the 'rule of cool' to override the fact that these were in prototype stage for a long time and never really had meaningful production. Again it's a semiauto with full auto capability shotgun feeding from a box or drum magazine. I'd design the game version around the 20 round drum magazine with an extremely long reload time.
I'd not include both the Jackhammer and the '12s', it would be an either-or thing.
[Updated on: Mon, 15 July 2013 05:01] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322887]
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Wed, 17 July 2013 23:07
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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wolf00question: do you have gun nest in your plans? ... i see there a chance for oldies like enfield smle no3 or no4 or browing automatic rifle[chamber in many calibers] old bolt action like mas 36 same situation here ... mauser rifle vzor 24 is in pre ww2 era exported in many countries worldwide in many calibers,same situation you can aply on machinegun vzor 26
...for gun nest: this chance for gun oldies from ww2 like mg15/mg 81z or mg/ff even for mg 131 or superior for mg 108,all this guns are from ww2 airplanes,yes that airplanes are gone,but there is chance buy suprplus some ex-aiplane guns[military surplus obtain from legal market or from black marked]most of them need elektrical power to fire but this is not problem,they operated on 24volts battery ... skilled gunsmith can be able modify them for ground using
edit:this can be familar for someone univerzalnij berezina [ub 12.7x109mm]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._24#G24.28t.29
I am not sure why there would be the inclusion of machinegun nests. I suppose there could be enemy fortified positions that have machinegun nests, but that isn't something I'd expect to see a band of mercs having.
However if MG nests were included, why the heck would they use Machine Guns pulled off aircraft rather than standard infantry light, medium, or heavy MGs? Heck it wouldn't even really make sense to have 'technicals' running around with the guns you mentioned mounted on it.
I am not sure why you linked to the VZ-24, but it's basically a copy of the Mauser 98K, and eventually was used to produce more Mauser 98Ks, so what does it bring to the table? How is it noticeably different from the Mauser 98K?
The one bit about this rifle is the Israelis got a bunch and converted them to 7.62 NATO to use as 2nd line rifles. But then I already discussed this same thing when talking about Spanish and Chilean (among others) contract mausers converted to 7.62 NATO, as well as Ishapore Enfields similarly converted (which ARE noticeably different from the 'Contract Mausers' in the same caliber due to having a 10 to 12 round box magazine and because the Enfield is regarded as the fastest cycling bolt action which means it's AP cost would be between the average bolt action and the average semi-auto rifle.)
for the 12.7x108 yes I am familiar with it but would suggest it's inclusion only if 50 BMG true heavy machineguns were around, and to treat those guns fairly, they'd have to code having a tripod as separate piece (a 40lb piece at that) so that two mercs moving slow carrying all that weight would have to slog forward, set it up, and wait for a third guy carrying the ammo cases to come up and join them before being able to carry forward.
I also see you were earlier mentioning the inclusion of the L1A1 as well as it's LMG configuration twin the L2A1. What you are failing to see in this specific example as well as in many more of your suggestions is that the gun is ALREADY listed...in it's TRUE designation the FN-FAL with the L1A1 being just an approved copy. This is the case with MOST of the weapons you are bringing up, they are NOT different, they are simply licensed or unlicensed copies.
AND
I made a post about shotguns. You accused me of focusing on western weapons only. I showed you evidence that your accusation was baseless and also asked you to submit non-western shotguns that were relatively common that were NOT derivatives of the guns I listed.
You have yet to do so.
Maybe you should stop throwing around the accusation of us being too fixated on Western weapons if you cannot come up with some shotguns hate are common, distinct, and NOT derivatives of western design.
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Sergeant
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322925]
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Thu, 18 July 2013 22:05
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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I don't know how the L1A1 is restricted to semiauto only. I suspect it's just a different trigger group and a sear. It may just be a different trigger group, or maybe just removing the trigger link to the bolt. It could even just be a divot, rivet, or pin on the inside which prevents the switch from being flipped to that side.
If you can pop open the dust cover and use a needle-nose pliers to snap off a little pin inside giving it full auto access, or simply insert a missing connector, that's less complicated than giving the gun a good cleaning.
Now the FN-FALs available in the US civilian market (and ALL semi-autos available on the US civilian market) are now required by law to be made quite difficult to convert into select fire mode.
But there again, we have FN-FALs that just like the L1A1 are semi-auto only. Which means we are back to zero difference between the FN-FAL and the L1A1...because the L1A1 is a SUBTYPE of FN-FAL.
I'm not familiar with the FN-FAL mechanical setup. However I'll throw these gems in here about how some US police departments who got 'free' M-16s from the US military and who decided they didn't want every officer to have the happy-switch version went about installing the most common kind of switch blocker.
"The switch blocker was just a flat piece secured by tightening the grip screw and pinching the flat of the item between the grip and the frame. It's removable in about 32 seconds, leaving you with the original select fire."
"we used to have them on our rifles, little metal widget that physically blocked the selector from going to the group therapy setting. we don't use em anymore, but I've seen a few bags of them floating around."
"If your department is really concerned with patrol officers going to FA, let them know those goofy blocks break off with very little effort. I have used M16'S with them installed before and all you have to do is bend it with your thumb and they snap off. If they want a full proof method, go with the majority of the advice and swap parts."
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Sergeant
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322936]
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Fri, 19 July 2013 00:09
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| DepressivesBrot |
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Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009 |
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Akodo DeathseekerI don't know how the L1A1 is restricted to semiauto only. I suspect it's just a different trigger group and a sear. It may just be a different trigger group, or maybe just removing the trigger link to the bolt. It could even just be a divot, rivet, or pin on the inside which prevents the switch from being flipped to that side.
If you can pop open the dust cover and use a needle-nose pliers to snap off a little pin inside giving it full auto access, or simply insert a missing connector, that's less complicated than giving the gun a good cleaning.
Now the FN-FALs available in the US civilian market (and ALL semi-autos available on the US civilian market) are now required by law to be made quite difficult to convert into select fire mode. Fair enough.
Akodo DeathseekerBut there again, we have FN-FALs that just like the L1A1 are semi-auto only. Which means we are back to zero difference between the FN-FAL and the L1A1...because the L1A1 is a SUBTYPE of FN-FAL. No, we are not. If we have the FN-FAL as the MAINTYPE, then there are some SUBTYPES which remove the full auto capability, and one of them is the L1A1. SUBTYPES are different from the MAINTYPE by definition, they just aren't totally different rifles.
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322944]
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Fri, 19 July 2013 05:36
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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DepressivesBrotAkodo DeathseekerI don't know how the L1A1 is restricted to semiauto only. I suspect it's just a different trigger group and a sear. It may just be a different trigger group, or maybe just removing the trigger link to the bolt. It could even just be a divot, rivet, or pin on the inside which prevents the switch from being flipped to that side.
If you can pop open the dust cover and use a needle-nose pliers to snap off a little pin inside giving it full auto access, or simply insert a missing connector, that's less complicated than giving the gun a good cleaning.
Now the FN-FALs available in the US civilian market (and ALL semi-autos available on the US civilian market) are now required by law to be made quite difficult to convert into select fire mode. Fair enough.
Akodo DeathseekerBut there again, we have FN-FALs that just like the L1A1 are semi-auto only. Which means we are back to zero difference between the FN-FAL and the L1A1...because the L1A1 is a SUBTYPE of FN-FAL. No, we are not. If we have the FN-FAL as the MAINTYPE, then there are some SUBTYPES which remove the full auto capability, and one of them is the L1A1. SUBTYPES are different from the MAINTYPE by definition, they just aren't totally different rifles.
Sorry, I disagree. Subtypes ARE the maintype.
A poodle is a subtype of dog.
A poodle is 100% dog.
A poodle is not different from a dog.
A poodle is different from other subtypes of dogs.
The type is FN-FAL.
There are many subtypes, but as they are subtypes they are all still FN-FALs. A surprising number of subtypes are semiauto. One such subtype is the L1A1...which is a FN-FAL that was at one time used by the British and other commonwealth nations.
[Updated on: Fri, 19 July 2013 05:38] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #322999]
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Sat, 20 July 2013 19:09
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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There is the FN-FAL.
The FN-FAL comes in a myriad of different variants. Variables of these configurations are barrel length, stock type, presence or absence of iron sights, sight type if they are present, cartridge fired (.280 experimental, 7.62 NATO, 7x49 Liviano) furniture type, two piece or one piece firing pin, presence or absence of lightening cuts, flash suppressor type, presence or absence of carry handle, trigger group type.
Trigger group type determines if it is semiauto, full, or some sort of burst.
The FN-FAL comes in two different forms, metric and inch.
By whatever name it goes, any metric FN-FAL has 100% parts compatibility with any other. So the G1 used by the german border guard, the FM-FAL used by the Argentinians, the 1A1 used by the Indians, the Rov've Mittan used by the Israelis, and the STG-58s used by the Austrians are all 100% parts compatible.
If you too a sample of each of those 5 guns, disassembled them and put all the parts together and jumbled them up, you can still put together 5 working guns, even if one gun might have an Argentinian barrel and a German stock.
The same applies to a group of guns that are inch pattern.
Finally, the L1A1 is a FN-FAL because they had to seek a LICENSE to make a FN-FAL. Note that they didn't seek a license to use specific patented technologies that are present in the FN-FAL, they sought a license to produce the FN-FAL.
Here's something else to think about. The Israelis were using all sorts of weapons from all over the world, most of it surplus WW2 weaponry. They decided to go with the FN-FAL as the one gun they'd all have (or at least all the front line units). They called their FN-FAL Rov've Mittan. The Rov've Mittans they ordered were all select fire. After a few years the Israelis decided to convert them all to semi-auto only. The Rov've Mittan was later replaced because they got a bunch of free M-16s from the US. Just like when the Rov've Mittan was in front line service you'd find various bolt action in second line service, the Rov've Mittan was moved to 2nd line service. A Rov've Mittan you'd see today in 2nd line service would be a gun that started it's life as a select fire and was later modified to be semi-only.
The Rov've Mittan serial number 6492035 didn't turn into a different gun when this change happened. It started out life as a FN-FAL and continued it's life as a FN-FAL
Note, serial number is just a guess of course.
Now, if you want to depict in game the most general type of FN-FAL, then you could label it FN-FAL, but alternatively if you were going to have multiple variants of the FN-FAL I'd suggest STG-58, or FAL 50.00 for the name of the 'basic'
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Sergeant
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| Re: List of possible weapons(pre-1990)[message #323507]
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Wed, 31 July 2013 09:28
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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max_da_killahAkodo DeathseekerThird, every 'eastern' shotgun I have seen is either 1990s or later OR is simply a copy (exact or inexact) of a western gun. For instance, the 'hawk' shotguns of China (Norinco) are clones of the remington 870 and remington 1100...to the extent you can use parts from one on the other.
But please, if you have information on COMMON shotguns one would find in the USSR (or it's satellite states) in either police or military hands, list them. Well, the soviet KS-23 riot shotgun for example is pre 1990s and was(is?) somewhat common...
And let's not forget the TOZ-82 / TP-82 cosmonaut survival weapon which, while not exactly common, is pretty much unique.
I agree with Depressivebot that the TOZ-82 is a niche weapon as well as not being all that unique of a design.
In addition the T0Z-82 uses 32 gauge, which is an extremely odd shotgun round. It would require unique ammo. Also, the 32 gauge rounds seem to be birdshot and flare. Birdshot is not an effective combat round unless you are in spitting distance and the flares even more so. It seems to me that if JA:F was going to have more than one gauge in-game then having 20 gauge versions of most shotguns and just lower damage values would be a lot more practical.
Finally, this was developed for the space program, and just a small amount were made. How would you explain them being available to the mercs in JA:F?
Regarding the KS-23, same thing but in spades
#1 the basic design of a pump shotgun is nothing special, it's a retread of previous pump designs
#2 The ammo type is unique
#3 until the 1990s the only ammo available was teargas grenades (small ones) and rubber bullets.
#4 when they did come out with buckshot, the rounds were extremely short range, which I assume is due to the low operating pressure needed in a 4 gauge of this light weight. (4 gauge black powder shotguns are extremely heavy, usually between 16 and 20 pounds) This heavy weight will reduce the kick, but it will still be staggering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsVHcJTcEw
Jump to 1:55 and watch how he can barely hang onto it. In this instance it is a vintage 4 bore as opposed to a shotgun, but in the blackpowder era both shotguns and rifles used the same propellant, so the charge might be bigger but they'd be in the same ballpark.
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