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7.62 aren[message #322024] Wed, 26 June 2013 00:08 Go to next message
Akodo Deathseeker

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN
JA 2 was better than most in that it had 7.62 NATO and 7.62 WP. I hope that JA Flashback does it right and has FOUR

the 7.62 x25 tokorov of handguns and SMGs of Soviet/Russian origin

the 7.62 x39 Warsaw-Pact an intermediate round for assault rifles light machineguns of Soviet/Russian origin

the 7.62 x51mm NATO a full power round for battle rifles and medium machineguns in the
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322030] Wed, 26 June 2013 01:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrashGordon94

 
Messages:61
Registered:May 2013
Location: England

I don't want to sound like a philistine, but do we really want the Tokarev round and the guns that use it? I mean, the series is all about "gun porn" but it's moot to include weapons that are boring, useless and difficult to get ahold of (which I'm guessing these would be), when you could use that time to put in more interesting ones.

With you on the rest though, I can pretty much bet you that the middle two would be in, and you make a good case for the last one too.
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322033] Wed, 26 June 2013 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Yes, don't guess around.


Re: 7.62 aren[message #322039] Wed, 26 June 2013 02:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrashGordon94

 
Messages:61
Registered:May 2013
Location: England

DepressivesBrot
Yes, don't guess around.

Is that in response to OP or me?
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322056] Wed, 26 June 2013 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
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Registered:July 2009
To you. The 7.62x25 was in service until the early 80s and those old, indestructible SMGs shipped into proxy wars at least as late as 'Nam. They are totally reasonable to show up with some faction or other if you don't want to give them AKs from the start.


Re: 7.62 aren[message #322067] Wed, 26 June 2013 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2067
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Well technically JA2 does have 3 of the four already. Seeing as JAF is pre JA series in the mid-late 1980's a place equivalent to BRays would indeed have a surplus of 7.62x25 Tokarev based weapons. At that point 5.56 was still in it's infancy and 5.45 hadn't been put into primary use either. So there should be a fair few weapons from WW2 through to post 'nam era to play with. Personally I'm looking forward to a Mosin as well as the M14 Smile


Re: 7.62 aren[message #322071] Wed, 26 June 2013 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Didn't JA2 have all 4 weapons but pulled the 'only one WP .30' trick?


Re: 7.62 aren[message #322087] Wed, 26 June 2013 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Akodo Deathseeker

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN
DepressivesBrot
Didn't JA2 have all 4 weapons but pulled the 'only one WP .30' trick?


Yea they had 3 distinct cartridges merged in the 7.62 WP

JA2 had a single SMG (Type 85) using 7.62 WP which would have been 7.62x25 tok

JA2 had IIRC two weapons (AKM and SKS) using 7.62 WP which would have been 7.62 x 39

JA2 had one weapon, the Dragunov, using 7.62 WP which would have been 7.62x54R
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322090] Wed, 26 June 2013 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrashGordon94

 
Messages:61
Registered:May 2013
Location: England

DepressivesBrot
To you. The 7.62x25 was in service until the early 80s and those old, indestructible SMGs shipped into proxy wars at least as late as 'Nam. They are totally reasonable to show up with some faction or other if you don't want to give them AKs from the start.

A, I see. I guess that WOULD make sense then, forgive me for my ignorance.

All I would say is that when I ge the game, I probably won't use these weapons if I can buy something better instead.
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322094] Wed, 26 June 2013 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Akodo Deathseeker

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN
CrashGordon94
I don't want to sound like a philistine, but do we really want the Tokarev round and the guns that use it? I mean, the series is all about "gun porn" but it's moot to include weapons that are boring, useless and difficult to get ahold of (which I'm guessing these would be), when you could use that time to put in more interesting ones.


While I think you are misusing the term 'moot' I understand what you are saying about including "boring, useless, and difficult to get ahold of" guns.

Lets take a look at those 3 for a second.

"Difficult to get ahold of" --actually, that is EXACTLY the kind of gun that is exciting to find in video games. Now, the trick is to choose something that isn't so rare that it's inclusion is silly. If there are 3 prototype versions in existence then that's too rare to include in the video game. If it's just 'foreign' so it doesn't get seen much, then rare is good to include. (Note, rarity should be based on REAL WORLD presence not on if the Hollywood prophouses have many to put in movies)

'boring' I'd love to hear your thoughts about what makes one gun boring and another not boring. I have my own opinions on this, and for the most part I side with Colonel Whelen on this issue.

But even then 'boring' would be entirely appropriate for very early game guns as well as guns that are included with the intention the mercs will be selling it for cash not using it.

'Useless' - see above. Works fine early game, and for economic inclusion.

Now, let's talk about those terms as far as 7.62 Tok is concerned. Looking at the group collectively, they are as 'useless' as the 9mm. (9x19 Parabellum for those of you who want me to be exact.) They are, in fact, the 'eastern' equivalent of this round.

For actual fighting, handguns suck. There's just no getting around that. So does your opinion of excluding 'useless' mean you think all handguns should be thrown out of JA:F? (And, for the record, I'd rather see all handguns thrown out of JA:F rather than try and make them something they are not)

And honestly, because SMGs fire the same exact cartridge, they aren't all that great either.

Still, 7.62 Tok and 9mm Para fill the same roll for East and West. I expect JA:F will be including handguns and SMGs, so this means 7.62 Tok guns are going to be meeting the 'exciting enough' and 'useful enough' bars.

Also, as touched on above, guns that fire 7.62 Tok are actually going to fit right in to any game about mercs. There were tons of guns chambered in this cartridge built for WW2, and then sold because governments had way too many, because governments needed cash, or because of corruption. In fact to spread their influence big governments would often help smaller countries set up gun plants so those countries could be both military partners and have a stream of revenue. Heck, many times countries just made factories that made close copies.

CrashGordon94


All I would say is that when I ge the game, I probably won't use these weapons if I can buy something better instead.


Why would you say that, without knowing what a variety of interesting weapons are available in this chambering, or what this great round brings to the table?

Let's talk about the round itself. First let me say that I expect JA:F to not model all handgun rounds the same. I expect that if they include the 9mm and the 45 acp, guns in the 45 acp will do a point or two more damage and maybe have a little less range. Well, the 7.62 Tok is just the opposite. It fires a small projectile at pretty impressive speeds. This means your average gun in 7.62 Tok would be best modeled as doing a point less damage than the 9mm but have a bit more range. However, more importantly, because of this speed the 7.62 Tok is better at piercing armor even when firing just 'regular' ammo. When using specialty AP ammo, the 7.62 Tok is right up there with the FN P-90's fancy 5.7mm ammo. That's another good reason why until you got your hands on some good assault rifles why it would be wise to have a merc or two carrying a 7.62 Tok firearm.

Let's talk about variability.

In many cases the handguns in 7.62 tok aren't going to be all that flashy or interesting. But this means they are perfect for having the enemy use to shoot AT you...and then you collect and sell them. Plus this gives a steady ammo stream for the SMG class of 7.62 Tok guns your mercs probably should be toting around.

SMG class. Now, there are plenty of SMGs like the PPS-43, Type 87, etc which would indeed be quite 'run of the mill' SMGs. There are a handful of 'exceptional' models as well however, and none of these are super rare.

PPSh-41. A gun created in Russia to be the perfect weapon of the peasant. What makes this 7.62 Tok gun stand out is that this gun is usually paired with a 71 round drum magazine. That alone would make me give it very serious thought to unequipping an 'average' 9mm SMG and going with this.

Type 85S. In addition to the regular type 85, there is a version with an integral suppressor (silencer). Now, if given the choice of HK's MP5 with an integral suppressor, I'd take the MP5...but until then this would be great. It would also be a lot more common to be seen in a merc's hand than the MP5SD. (note with both this and the MP5SD for best results each would actually use specialty heavy bullet ammo, but each can still use 'regular' ammo as well)

Type 75. This is an exceptionally light, 20 round magazine closed bolt SMG. For quite a while all SMGs were designed around open bolt firing mechanisms which gives some loss of accuracy. This closed bolt SMG would have improved accuracy over most. (The MP5's famed accuracy didn't come about because it was really anything special, it was just one of the first close bolt SMGs. Any closed bolt SMG of half-way decent design is just as accurate...only lacking in 'movie fame')

[Updated on: Wed, 26 June 2013 19:50] by Moderator

Re: 7.62 aren[message #322097] Wed, 26 June 2013 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
CrashGordon94
All I would say is that when I ge the game, I probably won't use these weapons if I can buy something better instead.
See, and there's the challenge from the design perspective: Create a, probably pretty limited, period in which you would absolutely love to get your hands on a PPsh-41 or -43. If they run a similar progression to JA2 (which I honestly hope they don't), that would be the transition from pistols and shotguns to the first SMGs and rifles. If they manage to make all classes somehow viable, they are still some of the better early game choices for your rapid fire compoment


Re: 7.62 aren[message #322101] Thu, 27 June 2013 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrashGordon94

 
Messages:61
Registered:May 2013
Location: England

Indeed. I don't have much of a suggestion to deal with it except maybe making it so you could get them early when they'd actually be really cool (though that approach has its own problems...), perhaps have them come from early quests or something similar (Maybe something like Elimate The Hicks in JA2, except with a nasty evil Russian family who have loads of PPShs and Mosin-Nagants and so on) or maybe having certain mercs join with them.

On a side note, what are your specific issues with JA2's weapon progression and what would you do instead? Just curious and kinda interested.
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322108] Thu, 27 June 2013 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Invading a country with pistols is retarded. Period.
You should always have access to all classes of weapons (maybe except ARs and heavy weapons early on) and simply improve the quality within that class instead of introducing a superior class that makes all previous obsolete.


Re: 7.62 aren[message #322112] Thu, 27 June 2013 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Akodo Deathseeker

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN
Yup, mercs should set foot in Alurco with an SMG, Shotgun, or rifle of some kind and a handgun on their hip being a back-up.

Actually, if I was redoing JA2 I'd have mercs using handguns up until Fatima escorted them to the hideout. At that point in addition to offering the aid of Ira and Dimitri, the 'Rebels' would have opened up a couple trunks of weapons...old weapons in poor repair, but rifles and such. I think SMGs like the PPS-43, M-3 Grease gun, MAT-49, maybe a few double barrel shotguns, the M-1 carbine, and some world war 2 era bolt action rifles like the Mosin Nagant. That would be a good start.

Re: 7.62 aren[message #322115] Thu, 27 June 2013 04:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SharkD

 
Messages:358
Registered:July 2003
I would support this change.
Re: 7.62 aren[message #322401] Wed, 03 July 2013 21:53 Go to previous message
CrashGordon94

 
Messages:61
Registered:May 2013
Location: England

I can definitely see where you guys are coming from with regards to mercs starting with handguns, though I would say I'm okay with SOME mercs starting with only handguns. Keyword being SOME, it should be the exception for the lower ones, as opposed to JA2 where it seems coming with only a handgun is the DEFAULT.
Also, I guess there is where the idea of different starting loadouts like in 1.13 (which I like) would come in, perhaps some mercs would have a cheap set that only has a handgun and a more expensive one with a crappy shotgun/rifle/SMG.
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