Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » Item Size and Weight 1.13
Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330002] Sat, 25 January 2014 19:20 Go to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
This is something I came across over the last year, where the size/weight of a lot of items seem arbitrary.

This affects obviously, what you can carry, but also what you can store in different pockets.

1-9 are gun sizes, so technically 10=1, the smallest size an item can be. Yet there doesn't seem to be any pattern at play when comparing different items.

This has left the Pockets a bit of a mess, instead of being able to just say something size 20 is twice as big as size 10, therefore you can put 1x(10) & 2x(20), it's all over the place.

A good example is the Mini Grenade, they were the same size as a MK Grenade. Or a piece of string is the same size as a Reflex Scope.

I suggest the following:

Review current Items (Guns Excluded) and try to make them more uniform in Size/Weight.

This would allow the pockets to be revised and make more sense.

If there's general agreement I'm prepared to do the work and discuss this with others.

The benefits would be a more coherent inventory system and more realistic storage.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330023] Sun, 26 January 2014 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2088
Registered:May 2009
Well, we have about 1700 items in current items.xml. Lot's of them are guns but I guess the rest is still a lot of work. If you want to fix them in terms of size please go ahead.

You will probably have to create categories first which fit in the size range that we have.
I don't know if the Ini Editor is up-to-date with the current tags so I'm unsure if you can use it.

The problem I see is that you have to stay current with your data if someone adds items/tags before you're done. Also people have to stick with your system if they want to add items in the future. Otherwise we will get the same disorder again. So you better document it well. Wink

Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330025] Sun, 26 January 2014 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3740
Registered:July 2009
silversurfer
You will probably have to create categories first which fit in the size range that we have.
Or define a new range. I never subscribed to the idea that '34 is enough unto all eternity'.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the current table anymore (we are moving this place way too often) but I recall current sizes not being a straight order but rather in blocks of three, representing a basic example, a long object and a malleable object of each size. Or something like that.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330035] Sun, 26 January 2014 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
btw my Bowie knife is smaller than my KCB knife
Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330045] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
My rough plan was to discuss generic item sizes/weights here so that we could draw up a framework which can be used as a reference for existing and future items.

Guns aren't my priority right now as they don't really affect pockets. I don't think it would be too much work, although i always think that before starting something.

I know this much:

Pockets are all over the place because there is no real logic to item size.

Some "Item Sizes" may need to be reserved for specific items in order for certain pockets to work no matter they're actual size.

There should be a simple formula for pockets, I.E. If I can but 4 Item size 10 and Item size 12 is twice as big I can only put 2 and so on...

Weight needs to be standardised, some things have weird figures.

100% Carry weight needs to be reflected in item weight.

After item size is worked out, Pockets will need to be reworked.

*******

I'm hoping to do this with feedback from others, realism doesn't necessarily mean good gameplay so it will be a bit more challenging than just googling the actual weight of something.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330073] Mon, 27 January 2014 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JMich

 
Messages:580
Registered:January 2011
Location: Greece
Off_Topic
I'm hoping to do this with feedback from others, realism doesn't necessarily mean good gameplay so it will be a bit more challenging than just googling the actual weight of something.
The standard item sizes may be a mess, but there was a logic to it. Back when HeadRock and ChrisL (I think) made NIV, they opted for 34 item sizes, and there should be a list of what the item sizes were (I only recall 34 being oversized, so hands only). There is also the rough rule of thumb that larger item size means larger item, since the function that distributes items tries to fit larger items first, to allow the pockets to be optimally filled.

However, the shape of the item is different from its size. Take a car battery and a fishing rod. Which one is bigger? Why should a pocket that fits a car battery also be able to take a fishing rod? Or take a grenade example. Even if the Potato Masher is 3 times as big as the other grenades, it may still not fit in a pocket that fits 3 of the normal grenades, nor will you be able to access the third grenade in a pocket designed for the potato masher.

Thankfully, there is currently no limit on how many item sizes you can use. Come up with a scheme that you think will work, and put it up for discussion. You can assign a single item size to a single item, to have pockets that can only take one item, though that may seem overkill.
Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330087] Mon, 27 January 2014 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
Here's a rough draft of what I've been thinking so far:

Limber items can be "scrunched" up or made smaller, as opposed to Rigid items.

10. Tiny Limber: String/Rubber Band
11. Tiny Rigid: Watch/Battery
12. Extra Small Slender: Pistol Mag/Steak Knife
13. Extra Small Compact: Carabiner D Ring/Glue
14. Extra Small Bulky: Mini Grenade
15. Extra Small Limber: Rag/Hat
16. Small Slender: SMG Clip/Throwing Knife
17. Small Compact: 7.62x51mm Mag 10/Camo Kit
18. Small Bulky: 40mm Grenade/Flash Suppressor
19. Small Limber (Empty): Modular Pouches/T Shirts
20. Medium Slender: AR Mag/Heavy Throwing Knife
21. Small Limber (Full)/ Holsters Empty.
22. Medium Limber (Empty): LBE Vests
23. Medium compact: Claymore/Video
24. Medium Bulky: TNT
25. Flashbangs/Smoke
26. Medium Limber Full
27. Large Curved Item: RPK Mag etc...
28. Large Slender: Pipe Wrench/Bowie Knife
29. Large Unusual Shape: Med Kit/Armour
30. Helmets
31. Large Bulky: TV
32. Large Limber (Empty): Combat Pack
33. Extra Large Slender: Rambo Knife
34. Large Sniper Rifle Magazines/12 Round Shotgun
35. Scopes
36. Darts
37. Extra large limber (Empty): Backpacks
38. Large Gun Attachments
41. C-Mags
42. Mortar Shell
44. Small Box of Ammo
45. Medium Box of Ammo
46. Large Box of Ammo
47. Drum
48. Helical Mags
49. LMG Belts
50. Oversized Item (Hands Only)

I've put some thought into how this would work with Pockets, it should help make NIV feel more natural, well, that's the idea anyway. Any suggestions or questions are welcome.

P.S. Another thing I want to address is the "Filled size" of certain LBE so that they can not be stacked. How do people feel about that?

[Updated on: Sat, 01 February 2014 15:09] by Moderator



Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330088] Mon, 27 January 2014 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
I don't like Your ps in vehicles
Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330090] Mon, 27 January 2014 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
Gorro der Gr


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330115] Tue, 28 January 2014 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2088
Registered:May 2009
That list sounds reasonable.

I hope it means that I can put smaller items in bigger pockets. So for example a med pouch will be able to hold a first aid kit (size 23?). Will it then be able to hold one or two 40mm grenades too?
I believe we had this discussion already in the Molle thread where you explained that you want to restrict certain items to their specific pockets in order to make people buy all the pocket types.

About the filled items stacking - I would like it if you cannot put several filled combat packs into a backpack. Two may actually fit but I'm not sure if this can be accomplished with the current code.

Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330133] Tue, 28 January 2014 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
Glad you like it, there is still room for fine tuning but it's not the worse starting point.

About the pocket types, that restriction only applied to MOLLE pockets. I might have a better way of dealing with it now though. Meaning they would be able to hold more than ammo, i'll mess around with it a bit first.

I'm with you on the item stacking, i see it as an exploit/oversight.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330143] Wed, 29 January 2014 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smeagol

 
Messages:2708
Registered:June 2008
Location: Bremen, Germany
I'm currently using 950 item sizes in AIMNAS, which turned out to cover most stuff (with the added benefit of also allowing for a sorting algorithm based on item size sorting the stuff based on item type... noone was interested in coding said sorting mechanism, but once someone does, I'm prepared ^^).

Though for the regular user 950 sizes might indeed be a bit too much... still I agree that 34 probably is too few.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330158] Wed, 29 January 2014 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
950... That's crazy/impressive Smeagol.

I can see the attraction in doing that, but at the end of the day as long as Pockets can be used in a logical way the the variety of size isn't too important.

Size doesn't affect anything else does it?

34 is a bit limiting, I've already come across a few items that don't easily fit into my classifications. So maybe increasing the amount of item sizes maybe necessary.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330159] Wed, 29 January 2014 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3740
Registered:July 2009
I think IoV uses 50, which is probably a reasonable step up, and wil something in the 250 range.


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330165] Wed, 29 January 2014 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2810
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
For v4.xx of my mods, I started development work with a nice round 300 size scheme. Excel 2003 column restrictions (I edit Pockets.XML with it) lead to the 240 size scheme in use today. Here it is in Google docs.

Note that not all the sizes are in use. It really is a barebones implementation which largely reflects the pre-externalized sizes.

The expanding range is 0-50
- plenty of room between "major" gun sizes to allow for Suppressors to add more than 1 to a gun's size


EDIT: I just realized a minor math error, I actually have 241 sizes, keep forgetting to count 0

[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2014 17:23] by Moderator



Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330178] Wed, 29 January 2014 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
Ok, after being inspired by Wil and Smeagol's extravagance i'll up the max item size. I might go with your recommendation of 50 DeprissivesBrot.

I was thinking though, I wasn't going to near weapon sizes as I wouldn't know enough about them. So should I leave a buffer zone (10-20) in case there is a need in the future to add/adjust weapons?


Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #330270] Sun, 02 February 2014 04:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:265
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
Tossing in my 2 cents..

I'd probably start with doing a weight re-balance - thats straight forward adjustments to one thing per item. After that I can actually see two possible options..

one you can use the current system just expand and reorder it, in which case I'd vote you talk to Wil about using his maybe with some mutually agreed on changes (this should make it more 'standardized' for mods).

The second option, is possibly adding a second value to Item size so it would be allow the combinations to work. this would be a much bigger task, but would allow more flexibility since special size combinations could be made to account for curves, flexible/squishable items, fragile items etc.

Re: Item Size and Weight 1.13[message #333660] Thu, 12 June 2014 15:07 Go to previous message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1054
Registered:January 2009
Below are the changes i've made to Maxitem size (34->80). This gives us a lot more variety and control over what goes into pockets. If anyone would like to test it and offer feedback it'd be more than welcome.

I know there are a few things I can improve, so i'll let this float for a few days and then finalise it.

Make copies of your Data-1.13 folder in case you want to revert:

https://www.mediafire.com/?lz15r10w3v89p21


10. Tiny Rigid: Key
11. Tiny Supple: String
12. Pistol Mag
13. Short Rifle/Sniper Rounds
14. Speed Loader
15. Small Throwing Knife/Dart
16. SMG Mags
17. Extra Small Supple; Rag/Soft Hat
18. Extra Small Compact: x2 Shotgun Shells
19. Extra Smalll Bulky: x4 Shogun Shells
20. AR Mags
21. Small Rectangular/Flat: Camo/Dusters
22. Small LBE (Empty)
23. LBE Vests Empty
24. Medium LBE Empty
25. Large Throwing Knife
26. Syringe
27. Small Cylindrical Narrow: Breaklight
28. Small Cylindrical Stubby: Flash Suppressor
29. Small compact: x7 Shotgun Shells
30. Small Bulky: x 12 Shotgun Shells
31. Small Rectangular: Videotape
32. Small LBE Full (Small Volume E.G. Single Pistol Modular Pouch.)
33. LMG Belt
34. Ammo Crate
35. Small Knife: Light Knife
36. LBE Vests (Full)
37. Medium LBE (Full), Small LBE Full (Big Volume)
38. Grenade
39. Smoke Grenade
40. 40/43mm Grenade
41. 40mm Metal Storm
42. Canteed/Small Bottle
43. Jar
44. Whiskey Bottle
45. Medium Knife: Seal/Bowie
46. Helical Mags/ Bizon
47. LMG Mags
48. C. Mags.
49. Small Ammo Drum
50. Big Ammo Drum
51. Medium Cylindrical Short (Pistol Supressor)
52. Medium Cylindrical Long ( Barrel Replacement)
53. Medium Rectangular: C4/Claymore
54. Headgear
55. Large Knife: Rambo
56. Medium Bulky: TMT
57. Large LBE Empty
58. Large Compact
59. Large Bulky; Human Head
60. Large Rectangular; Toolkit
61. Medkit
62 Large Unusual Shape Long: Crowbar
63. Large Unusual Shape Bulky: TV
64. Large Shape Extra Long
65. KA Bar
66. Small Ammo Box
67. Medium Ammo Box
68. Big Ammo Box
69. BLANK
70. Large LBE Full
71. Extra LArge LBE Empty
72. Helmet
73. Armour
74 40/43mm Cylinder Grenades
75. 60mm Shell
76. Loose 7.62 Ammo
77. Loose Beowulf Ammo
78. Single Casull Round
79. Small Spere: Mini Grenade
80. Hands Only, Extra Large LBE Full.

EDIT: MOLLE Pockets can now take more than just ammo etc...


[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2014 17:08] by Moderator



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