Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Coding Talk » Experimental Project 7
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352698 is a reply to message #352676] Fri, 16 March 2018 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Some imo questionable stuff happening with forced Turn Mode,
keep in mind i am literally forced to use it
because after some secs in realtime the program appears to give enemies 99.99% resources
at least execution of my inputs for simple commands like [esc] to stop,[l]ook, etc are delayed up to 10sec,
respectively after merc death anim ;)
(it gets better if i allow CPU to run @2.8 ghz, but 3 sec delay is still deadly)


Enemies always get the 1st turn when they attack(=enter the sector),
even if my mercs see them through scope while still out of their sight range,
effectively making up to ~35+ tiles from all potential entry map borders an unsafe zone,
so in worst case leaving only ~70x70 tiles "safe" space to position mercs in center of vanilla size maps.
Its even more valid for disguised merc as suspect lvl skyrockets with alert,
causing ok disguise to drop and spy to die in 1st turn before we act at all.
Would prefer "attacker only gets first turn if no merc/soldier spots a member of other faction, else roll initiative"


Another one: mercs start with base ap in 1st turn, while enemies appearently come with bonus from non existing previous turn.
(confirmed with soldier tooltip detail lvl = debug, and if breath = energy they also do not lose correct amount of energy from traveling;)



Besides, had a weird forced turn mode related glitch which fortunately did not occur again:
Dropped team from Heli in Tonys sector to sell items and found troops as expected,
combat started while heli in air and ended instantly before any merc had touched the ground,
game played "battle lost music" but i missed to recognize the possible consequences,
fought the battle and found out that ~1200 items worth >250k had beeen stolen in ~2 sec by 20 soldiers :D
Was 100% reproduceable with the save before touchdown, independant of ingame option auto fast fwd ai turns.
All attempts to reprodue that glitch on similar occasion fortunately failed, so far.

[Updated on: Fri, 16 March 2018 14:32]

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352700 is a reply to message #352698] Fri, 16 March 2018 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
townltu wrote on Fri, 16 March 2018 17:30
Some imo questionable stuff happening with forced Turn Mode,
keep in mind i am literally forced to use it
because after some secs in realtime the program appears to give enemies 99.99% resources
at least execution of my inputs for simple commands like [esc] to stop,[l]ook, etc are delayed up to 10sec,
respectively after merc death anim ;)
(it gets better if i allow CPU to run @2.8 ghz, but 3 sec delay is still deadly)

Strange as it seems you are the only one with this problem, other players reported about lags in realtime sometimes, but the game is playable even on old pc.

Quote:
Enemies always get the 1st turn when they attack(=enter the sector),
even if my mercs see them through scope while still out of their sight range,
effectively making up to ~35+ tiles from all potential entry map borders an unsafe zone,
so in worst case leaving only ~70x70 tiles "safe" space to position mercs in center of vanilla size maps.
Its even more valid for disguised merc as suspect lvl skyrockets with alert,
causing ok disguise to drop and spy to die in 1st turn before we act at all.
Would prefer "attacker only gets first turn if no merc/soldier spots a member of other faction, else roll initiative"

It's intended to prevent cheating when player places mercs/militia close to edge of the map and kills most of the attackers with grenades on the first turn. So attacker always gets initiative. As a defender, you can build fortifications or hide in buildings.
Suspicion level depends on the number of enemies that see spy, and you should not keep spy close to opponents or friends known to opponent when in combat. Do you have suggestions how to change suspicion counter for better balance without making it overpowered? I think it should be mostly used in peaceful time or for recon in combat when there are not much enemies around (searching for last enemy etc)

Quote:
Another one: mercs start with base ap in 1st turn, while enemies appearently come with bonus from non existing previous turn.
(confirmed with soldier tooltip detail lvl = debug, and if breath = energy they also do not lose correct amount of energy from traveling;)

All soldiers should start battle with normal amount of AP, without carryover from last turn.
Enemy not losing BP from travelling is not correct, but I don't think it would be easy to fix as they don't exist before you load tactical map.

Quote:
Besides, had a weird forced turn mode related glitch which fortunately did not occur again:
Dropped team from Heli in Tonys sector to sell items and found troops as expected,
combat started while heli in air and ended instantly before any merc had touched the ground,
game played "battle lost music" but i missed to recognize the possible consequences,
fought the battle and found out that ~1200 items worth >250k had beeen stolen in ~2 sec by 20 soldiers big grin
Was 100% reproduceable with the save before touchdown, independant of ingame option auto fast fwd ai turns.
All attempts to reprodue that glitch on similar occasion fortunately failed, so far.

Item related bugs happen sometimes, I applied all possible fixes from the main trunk, don't think I can do more.
Stealing of items happens when enemy fully controls sector (so no mercs/militia in sector) and with a small amount every hour or so.

[Updated on: Fri, 16 March 2018 21:11]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352715 is a reply to message #352700] Tue, 20 March 2018 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Well i only have old notebooks(with worn out keyboards as texts may indicate;),
encounterd to much lag related bad stuff in realtime on all,
so i go with turn based, perhaps switch to real time if there are only few enemies left.
I have some patience, and think playing with improved ai is certainly worth the higher time effort,
so no real issues with that here.


Placing mercs at border is not my style, let me explain:
previous battle ended and the sector instantly popped up with no time to crouch/prone mercs
in their standard defense positions at ~ 25+ tiles from border.
(as usual i spent time to get a grip on view conditions and determine the best defense spots)
Spy was at least 20 tiles away from other mercs when enemies entered and spotted unprepared mercs, opened fire etc,
enough to drop diguise and get poor spy killed.
Solved it by reloading save while in previous battle, move order for unprepared mercs&cancel to get away from the border,
nevertheless a little annoying.


Regarding suspicion counter:
In general works well for me after some time to get familiar with it,
still limited use(and i think it should be) for disguised spy on max alert in town/much cover sector
e.g. with extreme caution and much time effort, so balancing appears ok.

However i also got some weird behaviour of suspicion counter where it appeared to go erratic:
A) disguised merc in building near wall, enemy outside on adjacent tile,
during the following turns suspicion went up until disguise dropped,
only to automatically come up again next turn with pure yellow spyname.
B) similar for NW sam site of AR 1.10 but there the spy was moving prone in the southern building
next to&behind the outer wall with the windows facing SW, while enemies were outside the fenced area, ~15 tiles away.
I also switched to realtime and moved the merc repeatedly forth and back,
when passing behind the windows he became more and more suspicious and then redisguised a couple of times.


Soldier still standing at map border had 114 AP
when checking a save from 1st turn with alt+e in AR 1.10 @insane(= +5AP) and no deputy/squadleader in enemy team.


p.s.
20 AP for looking through scope appears too high since scoped rifle takes less,
no additional 20 AP for other direction(unless prone)
and last not least reveals entities in vision filed instantly instead of next turn,
which btw leads to paradox that spotter may get killed by "invisible" person in front of him.
Perhaps split spotter job and merely looking through scope for info about battlefield in 2 different things
and either have the latter take less AP for each look or allow to keep looking when we change direction.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352720 is a reply to message #352715] Tue, 20 March 2018 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
townltu wrote on Tue, 20 March 2018 18:32
Placing mercs at border is not my style, let me explain:
previous battle ended and the sector instantly popped up with no time to crouch/prone mercs
in their standard defense positions at ~ 25+ tiles from border.
(as usual i spent time to get a grip on view conditions and determine the best defense spots)
Spy was at least 20 tiles away from other mercs when enemies entered and spotted unprepared mercs, opened fire etc,
enough to drop diguise and get poor spy killed.
Solved it by reloading save while in previous battle, move order for unprepared mercs&cancel to get away from the border,
nevertheless a little annoying.

So, what do you suggest? Giving first turn to defenders means great disadvantage for attacking soldiers and allows using exploits for easy wins. And attacker should have initiative in my opinion.

Quote:
However i also got some weird behaviour of suspicion counter where it appeared to go erratic:
A) disguised merc in building near wall, enemy outside on adjacent tile,
during the following turns suspicion went up until disguise dropped,
only to automatically come up again next turn with pure yellow spyname.
cool similar for NW sam site of AR 1.10 but there the spy was moving prone in the southern building
next to&behind the outer wall with the windows facing SW, while enemies were outside the fenced area, ~15 tiles away.
I also switched to realtime and moved the merc repeatedly forth and back,
when passing behind the windows he became more and more suspicious and then redisguised a couple of times.

At the end of each turn, a small amount of suspicion is added if some opponents have seen or heard spy this turn.
So even if you stay invisible but enemy heard you this turn, the suspicion will raise.
Also, suspicion raises if you killed some enemy this turn and there are soldiers who saw killed soldier and saw/heard spy this turn.
As for automatic redisguise, I probably need a save to understand what's happening.

Quote:
Soldier still standing at map border had 114 AP
when checking a save from 1st turn with alt+e in AR 1.10 @insane(= +5AP) and no deputy/squadleader in enemy team.

Don't know why it happens.

Quote:
20 AP for looking through scope appears too high since scoped rifle takes less,

Sounds like a mod balance problem if raising rifle with high power scope costs less than 20 AP.

Quote:
no additional 20 AP for other direction(unless prone)

Yes, but you can use binocs for spotting. I can probably allow spending APs when watching but not moving (reset watching status on entering new tile).

Quote:
and last not least reveals entities in vision filed instantly instead of next turn,
which btw leads to paradox that spotter may get killed by "invisible" person in front of him.

It never happened to me. Even if you get full sight bonus only at next turn, you don't lose your basic sight when you use binocs, so there should not be anybody 'invisible' in front of you. Sounds like already mentioned problem with extremely high cover settings in this mod. You will not meet invisible opponents when playing a balanced mod like SDO, for example.

Quote:
Perhaps split spotter job and merely looking through scope for info about battlefield in 2 different things
and either have the latter take less AP for each look or allow to keep looking when we change direction.

I would prefer to completely remove day vision bonus from both scopes and binocs as it will make playing on small maps much more interesting and balanced.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352724 is a reply to message #352720] Wed, 21 March 2018 00:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
I agree that attacker should get initiative,
works fine on big maps where the ground which attacker makes in the 1st turn
does not reduce the "safe" area for defender as much as on small ones,
especially for attacks from multiple sectors.
Perhaps you can reduce attackers AP in 1st turn for some amount like 20-30%,
still enough to allow killing instantly spotted mercs/militia at map border;)


Sound raising suspicion level explains it,
perhaps also why redisguise happened as enemy stopped hearing spy when disguise dropped, so counter was reset.
Anyway will check if a save from D2 is still present.



Well "in front of him" was quite exaggerated, sorry, merc looking through binocs was shot by soldier
in <30 tiles distance who was not invisible due to camo settings, which i adjusted to imo balanced results in game.
long story:
In standard dev releases you get instant vision cone of scope/binoc according to shift+v overlay,
but vision is only updated if we spend some ap, no matter how, e.g. change stance, use canteen, etc.
There is the exploit to go strategic map and back as it updates view, always works.
With AI exe the same is also possible and it shows that we dont see enemies on 1st look through scope
as soon as they are 1 tile out of sight rage for unarmed eye,
camo obviously cant be too high, else we wouldnt spot them at all even when forcing vision update with switch to other map.
Regarding mods low ready cost, take extreme 50 AP to raise the gun and add 7x6AP,
still a full 360 degree vision control in one turn is possible,
for ai scope that takes 8x20 + 7x6 AP, without the 8 turns for delayed vision updates.
If player does not shoot unseen enemies, spotters make less sense, better use a gun to watch and be ready to shoot,
but for shooting unseen targets player and all players in early game with no scopes it makes a difference.


I dont think vision bonus should be completely removed, but like in most mods things become op over time,
just another cool item that is a tiny bit better than the last one, which already was beyond balance.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352785 is a reply to message #352724] Mon, 26 March 2018 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise

 
Messages:13
Registered:April 2013
Hi Sevenfm, thanks a lot again for the awesome AI mod! However I have a serious problem: I wanted to download the latest builds but my Antivirus software keeps detecting Trojans in the ja2_7609+AI.exe files which are located on your google drive.

Could it be possible that somehow those files on the google drive got infected? Alternatively my antivirus software (Microsoft Security Essentials) could be giving a false error but I think it functions correctly.

Thanks!
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352787 is a reply to message #352785] Mon, 26 March 2018 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
crackwise wrote on Mon, 26 March 2018 18:53
...
However I have a serious problem: I wanted to download the latest builds but my Antivirus software keeps detecting Trojans in the ja2_7609+AI.exe files which are located on your google drive.

Could it be possible that somehow those files on the google drive got infected? Alternatively my antivirus software (Microsoft Security Essentials) could be giving a false error but I think it functions correctly.


According to all scanners on virustotal.com, ja2_7609en+AI_r685 is ok (link to scan result)
Check your file on virustotal, if infected your system may be compromised,
i.e. imo time for full system scan with multiple virus scanners.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352790 is a reply to message #352787] Mon, 26 March 2018 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3334
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Could it be the Tools/ExShell/Exshell.exe? If yes, that is a tool to start the game with some graphic modifiers. It also causes any antivirus scanner to throw a fit, which is why it is best to delete it if you won't use it.



“What are you doing?” Joffrey interrupted him.

“… can’t a man give a few last words for his son to carry?”

“…Who told you your son was making it out of this field alive?”

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352798 is a reply to message #352785] Tue, 27 March 2018 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
crackwise wrote on Mon, 26 March 2018 20:53
Hi Sevenfm, thanks a lot again for the awesome AI mod! However I have a serious problem: I wanted to download the latest builds but my Antivirus software keeps detecting Trojans in the ja2_7609+AI.exe files which are located on your google drive.

Could it be possible that somehow those files on the google drive got infected? Alternatively my antivirus software (Microsoft Security Essentials) could be giving a false error but I think it functions correctly.

Thanks!

Some players already reported that, most likely the reason is paranoid antivirus software, as online scans do not find any viruses in exe. I have avg installed on my pc, it also doesn't show anything.

Quote:
Could it be the Tools/ExShell/Exshell.exe? If yes, that is a tool to start the game with some graphic modifiers. It also causes any antivirus scanner to throw a fit, which is why it is best to delete it if you won't use it.

There is no Exshell.exe tool on my google drive.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352800 is a reply to message #352798] Tue, 27 March 2018 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
Ja2+AI r686

- NCTH: apply IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS at full day vision range
- NCTH: increase movement penalty
- breaking AI deadlock: show action/data/movement mode
- DetermineMovementMode: don't allow crawling near fences to avoid pathing problems
- show message when enemy raises red alert
- in Red/Black AI, if soldier is alerted (sees/hears enemy), always raise sector alert before doing anything
- Red AI: use sniper/suppression fire/mortar fire/skills only at the start of the turn
- use suppression fire more often
- lowered CTH check for sniper fire
- increased min bullets for suppression fire to 5
- allow using smoke to cover movement more often



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352828 is a reply to message #352800] Thu, 29 March 2018 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
Ja2+AI r688

- update vision immediately after starting to watch/spot (no need to manually update vision by switching to strategic and back)
- switch off radio if we cannot use it anymore (take off radio, remove battery), when soldier spends AP/BP or at the start of the new turn (no more active radio operator with dropped radio)
- CheckForChangingOrders: change orders if soldier is not in town, not in underground sector and not in a room, also change orders if soldier is under fire (more active AI garrison when not defending town)



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352874 is a reply to message #352828] Sat, 31 March 2018 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
szczurszymon

 
Messages:6
Registered:January 2018
Hi Sevenfm!

According to WINDOWS DEFENDER Trojan:Win32/Azden.B!cl is located in ja2_7609en+AI_r688.exe. I've checked my computer with Malwarebytes and look up all the registry file and did not locate any trace of malware on my computer. Neveertheless Windows Defender does not let me use your newest file. There were no issues with earlier files. Is it a paranoid behavior of Windows Defender or your newest file is truly infected with this trojan? Please recheck r888 for this trojan particulary.

[Updated on: Sat, 31 March 2018 21:49]

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352876 is a reply to message #352874] Sat, 31 March 2018 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
Just checked the whole google drive and my pc and there are no viruses there.
You can also check any file with online antivirus scans.
And the file may become infected on the way from google drive to your hard drive.
Maybe a false alarm by windows defender, I don't know.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #352881 is a reply to message #352876] Sun, 01 April 2018 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
szczurszymon

 
Messages:6
Registered:January 2018
Hi Sevenfm,

I've just reported to Microsoft false positive Windows Defender report made on your r688 file and other execs from your ai improvement (I found that issue has been reported by WD since r684). I've double checked all the files and my system (FRST, register, Malwarebytes, WD check, online scanners) and found out no issues on my System or files itself. I hope that Microsoft will fix the isssue and allow me and othe W10 users to use files properly. On my Linux instalation it works perfectly fine.
Sorry for inconvenience.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353085 is a reply to message #352881] Thu, 12 April 2018 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jean Luc Picard

 
Messages:25
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
Hello Sevenfm,

because i've started a new Ja2 Run, i looked at the progress of this experimental project. Referencing to your Youtube - demonstration for the new ambient sounds, i looked at your other demonstrations too (destroying samsite as a spy with mouse for example). My Question is where i can get the new music - soundtrack that plays in background. It gives a much better fighting atmosphere. Is it part of your experimental project? Looked at kermi ftp but there they are all different.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353086 is a reply to message #353085] Thu, 12 April 2018 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
Jean Luc Picard wrote on Thu, 12 April 2018 21:26
Hello Sevenfm,

because i've started a new Ja2 Run, i looked at the progress of this experimental project. Referencing to your Youtube - demonstration for the new ambient sounds, i looked at your other demonstrations too (destroying samsite as a spy with mouse for example). My Question is where i can get the new music - soundtrack that plays in background. It gives a much better fighting atmosphere. Is it part of your experimental project? Looked at kermi ftp but there they are all different.

Hi!
I use many music tracks in my demo videos, can't remember all of them.
Some of the music I use can be found here:
https://yadi.sk/d/Fj_B0WEKNjRQJ/Mods/Music



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353089 is a reply to message #353086] Thu, 12 April 2018 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jean Luc Picard

 
Messages:25
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
Thanks! There are the tracks i was looking for.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353195 is a reply to message #353089] Tue, 17 April 2018 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jean Luc Picard

 
Messages:25
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
While playing with this executable revision 688, i noticed suspicious lines in console when the enemy does his turn. This is not every turn. It happens irregularly. I made a screenshot. Maybe it is not a bug but suspicious, so i report it here:


https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2dyasdn9mje5e9/Unbenannt.jpg?dl=0

[Updated on: Tue, 17 April 2018 23:24]

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353196 is a reply to message #353195] Tue, 17 April 2018 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
It's a bug in AI that I need to fix. Nothing serious, but AI behaves less effective with it.
I wasn't sure if it still happens and how often so I decided to put a screen line.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353201 is a reply to message #353196] Wed, 18 April 2018 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1058
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Sevenfm,

Please elaborate on the new option - HEAD_PENALTY_NCTH. Does it over-ride SHOT_HEAD_PENALTY?





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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353202 is a reply to message #353201] Wed, 18 April 2018 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
edmortimer wrote on Wed, 18 April 2018 10:07
Sevenfm,
Please elaborate on the new option - HEAD_PENALTY_NCTH. Does it over-ride SHOT_HEAD_PENALTY?

SHOT_HEAD_PENALTY is for OCTH only. As you can see, in stock 1.13 there is no penalty when shooting at head in NCTH, while SHOT_HEAD_PENALTY is set to 4.

HEAD_PENALTY_NCTH is for NCTH only (and set to 0 by default). It works like AIM_ penalties from CTHConstants.ini, allowing to set aiming penalty when shooting at head in NCTH. It may be interesting for some players, though it kind of goes against base NCTH idea.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353206 is a reply to message #353202] Wed, 18 April 2018 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Human (and most other creatures) body is designed to stabilize the head during movement,
in order to keep visual inputs "computeable",
the somewhat higher movement compared to humans torso should be mostly compensated by arms
which are at least partially included in "torso" target zone("shoulder hit")
while the legs have more movements and are harder to hit.
Of course only valid if target is not running directly(more or less) in direction of aiming line.

i.e. if its not about balance but real condition,
option for additional penalty should go for legs of moving taget, increasing with angle.
Makes it harder to stop enemy with aimed shots,
realisic but regarding balance may favour auto fire weapons and skill too much,
dont make something so powerful that it reduces the value of other stuff on same lvl

[Updated on: Wed, 18 April 2018 13:36]

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353208 is a reply to message #353206] Wed, 18 April 2018 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2292
Registered:May 2009
Body movement is already taken into account in NCTH. Also there is no need to apply additional penalties for head shots in NCTH because the bullet has to hit the structure of the head and that is already smaller than the rest of the body so head shots are already much more difficult than shots at the torso for example.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353274 is a reply to message #353208] Sun, 22 April 2018 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taleman

 
Messages:37
Registered:October 2010
Location: Finland
Bug, Ira and Dimitri are drawn with 3 tiles displacement

Playing wine ja2_7609en+AI_r688.exe . No mods.

For two weeks now in tactical mode Ira and Dimitri are drawn 3 tiles up from where they are. I do not know what caused this, it just appeared and does not seem to go away. Attached screenshot maybe clarifies. Ira is stepping one tile forward, taking 4 action points. The game draws her avatar 3 tiles up. It is only these two characters, both are rebels so maybe that has something to do with this? I have not recruited Miguel or that sidekick of his whose name I forget.

http://taleman.fi/JA2/JA2-Screenshot%20at%202018-04-22%2015-42-56.png

Savegame from the above pictured situation is http://taleman.fi/JA2/Auto00.sav
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353276 is a reply to message #353274] Sun, 22 April 2018 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1058
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
It is caused by having characters on the roof in Tactical, and then loading them into a vehicle in Strategic. I don't know how to reverse it.




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353279 is a reply to message #353276] Sun, 22 April 2018 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taleman

 
Messages:37
Registered:October 2010
Location: Finland
Thanks for the info. I managed to reset this wrong placement of avatar by climbing on a roof. Now both characters are drawn on the correct tile.
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353280 is a reply to message #332214] Sun, 22 April 2018 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise

 
Messages:13
Registered:April 2013
Playing now with ja2_7609en+AI_r688 on AR+SDO. I have a couple of observations and requests:

1) Enemy blind-suppression-fire too accurate!

I see that in this AI-version enemy uses blind suppression much more often and very effectively compared to earlier versions. By blind suppression I mean that enemies with automatic weapons return fire at the whereabouts of our mercs without actually having seen them - only by interpreting the sounds of my shots (and muzzle flashes too?). With this version, enemies seem to return blind suppression fire too accurately and would like to ask if it is possible to reduce its accuracy a bit.


2) Visual cues to indicate the approximate location of an enemy necessary: Maybe with a new skill: "Observing"?:

I also use blind suppression fire against enemies I cannot see and I do this by paying attention to the bullet tracers in order to estimate where the enemy is hiding. However, as a player I cannot keep track of all the fires shot at me. This gets very complicated when my mercs are especially getting shot at from different angles. Therefore, I need to have some visual cues indicating me the approximate location of the bullet fired in order for me to compete with the AI-suppression fire. After all, who wins the firefight, wins the actual fight.

I have discovered when I press Shift, it shows a small circle, indicating where the last enemy has shot at me. This is helpful, but shows only one target - and sometimes doesn't show any at all. So I don't know how this thing really functions.

But here is my suggestion: Ideally, what I would like to have is that my merc interprets the direction of enemy shots and I receive visual cues about the approximate enemy location. For instance, those could be indicated with green circles similar to spotting or radio skill circles - the smaller the circle, the more accurately my merc has approximated the location. This feedback could be automatic, or even better, could be made into an active skill as follows: So any merc can be assigned on the tactical to use the skill "Observe". They will be observing and giving feedback about enemy location interpreting enemy blind suppression fire. The more experienced the merc, the better. Deputies and Squadleaders get bonus points, since by profession they know how to guide firefight.

What do you say, is implementing such a thing possible?

[Updated on: Sun, 22 April 2018 21:53]

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353281 is a reply to message #353279] Sun, 22 April 2018 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
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Quote:
I managed to reset this wrong placement of avatar by climbing on a roof. Now both characters are drawn on the correct tile.


Good to know!




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353282 is a reply to message #353280] Sun, 22 April 2018 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1058
Registered:January 2015
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I second this motion!


Quote:
2) Visual cues to indicate the approximate location of an enemy necessary: Maybe with a new skill: "Observing"?:

I also use blind suppression fire against enemies I cannot see and I do this by paying attention to the bullet tracers in order to estimate where the enemy is hiding. However, as a player I cannot keep track of all the fires shot at me. This gets very complicated when my mercs are especially getting shot at from different angles. Therefore, I need to have some visual cues indicating me the approximate location of the bullet fired in order for me to compete with the AI-suppression fire. After all, who wins the firefight, wins the actual fight.

I have discovered when I press Shift, it shows a small circle, indicating where the last enemy has shot at me. This is helpful, but shows only one target - and sometimes doesn't show any at all. So I don't know how this thing really functions.

But here is my suggestion: Ideally, what I would like to have is that my merc interprets the direction of enemy shots and I receive visual cues about the approximate enemy location. For instance, those could be indicated with green circles similar to spotting or radio skill circles - the smaller the circle, the more accurately my merc has approximated the location. This feedback could be automatic, or even better, could be made into an active skill as follows: So any merc can be assigned on the tactical to use the skill "Observe". They will be observing and giving feedback about enemy location interpreting enemy blind suppression fire. The more experienced the merc, the better. Deputies and Squadleaders get bonus points, since by profession they know how to guide firefight.

What do you say, is implementing such a thing possible?




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353286 is a reply to message #353282] Mon, 23 April 2018 02:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Lowering accuracy of enemies blind reply fire may be a bad idea,
i think its intended to force the player to frequent moves, literally every time you shoot.
If reply fire exactly hits the spot, mercs who moved 2 tiles will be rather safe,
while cth penalties or random modifier for spot of noise heard by enemies will result in more bullets hitting merc who moved.


However i would rather prefer an approach which does not more or less force player
to also fire at unseen enmies and always move after a shot,
it favours specific player behaviour and as consequence makes athlete trait op
while high AP weapon users suffer, even more with dynamic aiming costs.

Imagine we get feedback on all noises, 1st "bait" shot results in people shooting all over the sector,
finally team X wins after taking heavy losses, and all happened without any visual contact.

Unfortunately i have not even a layer8 idea how to achieve better enemy tactics,
but i think a random/event_related switch of tactics would probably contribute.


btw a big increase of gravity appeared to work here, as long as weapon range was low enough,
while the reply fire may not care about unseen penalty in cthconstants.ini
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353287 is a reply to message #353286] Mon, 23 April 2018 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1058
Registered:January 2015
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Quote:
Imagine we get feedback on all noises, 1st "bait" shot results in people shooting all over the sector,
finally team X wins after taking heavy losses, and all happened without any visual contact.


My point, and I think the original point, was that while the computer can accurately keep track of every noise, every direction of shot, every seen opponent - we cannot because there is too much happening to too many characters, and the screen is moving rapidly from one area to the next. A counter-suggestion would be to dumb down the AI so it cannot remember every noise, every etc. - but we don't want to dumb it down.

Knowing the general direction of enemy fire doesn't necessarily mean shooting blindly in that direction - it can also mean popping smoke, or finding cover from that direction.

I think we are both asking for a little help in remembering which direction (not exact positioning) shots came from regarding a specific PC who would ordinarily know that info if that PC was AI-controlled.




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353291 is a reply to message #353287] Mon, 23 April 2018 06:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
I use invisible bullet(=tranparent graphics) because i refuse to participate in the blind fire orgy.

However enemies acoustic localization is apparently much better,
but i would also give players the same lvl only if enemies become really smarter,
the blind fire is for me similar to a chess opponent who does annoying things like distration to win,
i would prefer not to reply the same way or even escalate.



One (not serious;) way to make the game harder is to make savecumming "unattractive":
While there is no direct control over loading,
the game could keep track on number&frequency of reloads and preferably also reasons,
for e.g. 10 reloads identified as cheating it gets permission for one reload to its favour
e.g. if it "thinks" player had a lucky turn, or to start one of those reload_until_hit sequences,
imagine the reaction of affected player when it happens the 1st time big grin
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353294 is a reply to message #353291] Mon, 23 April 2018 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
1. Blind fire will be less effective in new release.
2. Radio in listening mode shows (with SHIFT presed) locations of all recently heard opponents and also greatly extends hearing range.
3. Enemy soldiers cannot see bullets, so they cannot guess where they come from if shooter uses silencer, so AI is at disadvantage to player here.
4. It's not possible to avoid hits from suppression fire when using NCTH because of nature of this system. When using OCTH, suppression fire should hit at max 1% rate.
5. Showing approximate shooter's location when merc is attacked should be possible technically.
6. Merc not using radio can remember only one location of most important noise heard recently, I think it's realistic and good for balance.
7. AI can remember all locations but he has many other limitations so until it will be able to think like human we should not limit his knowledge advantage.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

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- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353295 is a reply to message #353291] Mon, 23 April 2018 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
townltu wrote on Mon, 23 April 2018 08:06

One (not serious;) way to make the game harder is to make savecumming "unattractive":
While there is no direct control over loading,
the game could keep track on number&frequency of reloads and preferably also reasons,
for e.g. 10 reloads identified as cheating it gets permission for one reload to its favour
e.g. if it "thinks" player had a lucky turn, or to start one of those reload_until_hit sequences,
imagine the reaction of affected player when it happens the 1st time big grin

I was thinking about two possibilities:
1. Game is randomly saved each turn with 1/10 probability in iron man mode, so you cannot save/load every turn but if something goes wrong you don't lose the whole battle.
2. Morale is reduced for mercs on each load on small amount and restores after several turns - you can save\load any time, but if you start saveloading a lot your mercs will not like it and they will start losing combat effectiveness because of morale drop.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353296 is a reply to message #353295] Mon, 23 April 2018 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise

 
Messages:13
Registered:April 2013
I don't know if this is from the AI mod or from something else but another thing I have noticed is that the enemy camouflage seems to be overpoweringly effective!

I have experienced such cases: I hit an enemy with stun grenade, he goes unconscious and falls prone. Then my merc goes to knife him at the spot he has fallen but the stunned enemy has disappeared! I cannot move the merc back or forward since there is an invisible thing blocking the path. I wait a couple of turns and then the enemy gets up and kills my merc! The guy was apparently there all the time, but because he wears camo, he disappears when he falls prone and I can not detect him even if I am almost on top of him zero tiles away. This is very strange, do you know what the reason could be?

Apart from this example, camouflaged enemies seem to have 100% camouflage, so they see me almost always before I see them. Is there a way to reduce or limit enemy camouflage values?
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353297 is a reply to message #353296] Mon, 23 April 2018 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1534
Registered:December 2012
crackwise wrote on Mon, 23 April 2018 17:59
I don't know if this is from the AI mod or from something else but another thing I have noticed is that the enemy camouflage seems to be overpoweringly effective!

I have experienced such cases: I hit an enemy with stun grenade, he goes unconscious and falls prone. Then my merc goes to knife him at the spot he has fallen but the stunned enemy has disappeared! I cannot move the merc back or forward since there is an invisible thing blocking the path. I wait a couple of turns and then the enemy gets up and kills my merc! The guy was apparently there all the time, but because he wears camo, he disappears when he falls prone and I can not detect him even if I am almost on top of him zero tiles away. This is very strange, do you know what the reason could be?

Apart from this example, camouflaged enemies seem to have 100% camouflage, so they see me almost always before I see them. Is there a way to reduce or limit enemy camouflage values?

Never experienced that. What camo settings are you using? Maybe you have a save with reproducible bug? (just before the bug appears)

Camo works for enemy just the same as for merc, there's no difference in the code. Some soldiers in Ja2+AI have camo value to allow them hiding better, but it's no different from player having high camo.

[Updated on: Mon, 23 April 2018 16:03]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r713) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube

- How did you survive?
- Didn't. Got killed... God, I love that joke.


Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353300 is a reply to message #353295] Mon, 23 April 2018 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
sevenfm wrote on Mon, 23 April 2018 14:08
...
I was thinking about two possibilities:
1. Game is randomly saved each turn with 1/10 probability in iron man mode, so you cannot save/load every turn but if something goes wrong you don't lose the whole battle.
2. Morale is reduced for mercs on each load on small amount and restores after several turns - you can save\load any time, but if you start saveloading a lot your mercs will not like it and they will start losing combat effectiveness because of morale drop.


I dont like 1. as it could overwrite a correct save with a bug that happened after the last save,
besides who plays JA2 in real IM mode although the game produces a substancial amount of gamebreaking stuff?

Usually i dont like stuff which limits player, also when on the modding side and even if its about exploits,
but 2. sounds great to me, it has little effect on occasional reload due to misclick etc,
but penalizes reload_until_hit & when_will_the_rng_gimme_what_i_want behaviour.

However if required effort is high, it may not be worth it,
as file date, system time or a value in save are not really reliable references.

[Updated on: Mon, 23 April 2018 17:28]

Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353301 is a reply to message #353295] Mon, 23 April 2018 17:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1058
Registered:January 2015
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Once the Designer of a game starts trying to modify the Player's behaviour it spells the end of the game. If a Player is save-scumming the game is already too difficult for them, even if it remains enjoyable. Now take away save-scumming and the game becomes impossible for that Player, and no longer enjoyable.





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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353302 is a reply to message #353301] Mon, 23 April 2018 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2292
Registered:May 2009
edmortimer wrote on Mon, 23 April 2018 16:40
Once the Designer of a game starts trying to modify the Player's behaviour it spells the end of the game. If a Player is save-scumming the game is already too difficult for them, even if it remains enjoyable. Now take away save-scumming and the game becomes impossible for that Player, and no longer enjoyable.

I have to agree. If someone wants a harder game then he can already play a higher difficulty level and/or iron man but he should NOT expect others to play the way he wants! That's the same bullshit as one player condemning another player for cheating in a single player game. Wtf does he care how others play on their own?



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #353304 is a reply to message #353301] Mon, 23 April 2018 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
townltu

 
Messages:175
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Massive number of save&reload usually indicates difficulty for player to thik about and/or use different approaches,
however it just came to my mind that 2. may have impact on e.g. playtesting battles in new sector
where frequent reloads are part of the job.
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