Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333896]
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Fri, 27 June 2014 02:30
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Ferix |
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012 |
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Repeater1947Which Chance to Hit system is better? The question is not entirely correct.
What does it mean "better"?
I personally hate NCTH and use OCTH. But I think that NCTH has potential.
Let's see, what we got.
OCTH is very simple and friendly. It provides wonderful feedback.
When you take more advanced weapon and install more advanced attachments you CTH go up. And you hit enemies more easily. You feel it. You see how CTH bar fills.
Now NTCH. I do not understand it. At all.
I read the wiki, forum threads but still I miss enemy standing in front of me. I got good gun, all attachments and enemy in range. ш spent all AP to aim. But I miss. Why? NCTH decided so...
In OCTH when you miss, you miss. Bullet flies past, sometimes hit cover or other soldier. But in NCTH sometimes all burst falls to the ground at the feet of the enemy. Looks like you're shooting a bow and pulled the bowstring not strong enough.
silversurferNCTH feels much more realistic.
John A SmithYou can get pretty similar performance with NCTH too, you just have to use the proper mercs. No. No. And No.
Have you ever fired a gun?
NCTH is not realistic at all. I do not know what she was trying to simulate, but not exactly the flight of bullets fired from a weapon.
A simple example - Laser sight. It draws red dot on the spot where the bullet should hit. It does not give any bonuses, it guarantees that you will hit the point that you see with 100% probability. No difference soldiers you or a student who has taken the first weapons, in both cases сhance that you will hit the red dot exactly 100% Well. in case of student chance may be lower, because he does not know how to hold a gun. But we play professional mercenaries, who know how to shot.
Also. in case of laser sight it draw dot at a distance of approximately 300 meters. This is effective range of most assault rifles.
Now let's talk about aiming. What is it? When you aim better you spend more AP. In terms of turn based game AP = time. So you spend more time to...
As mentioned above, game freeze during your turn, but enemies still in move. So is it possible to hit moving target? The answer is - Yes. All you need is time. Of course hit a running goal is very difficult task, but still possible. And even in the case of a miss, if you spent some time on aiming bullet will fly in front of him or behind him. But it definitely should not fall to the ground before his feet.
NCTH has a lot of interesting features. But at the moment its implementation causing me to tears.
Wiki says that developers trying to do something with "headshot game". And we got NCTH as result. They won this battle. But at what cost? Now difficult to hit not just the head, but even the body of standing enemy. For me, the difference between the two systems looks so:
OCTH=bonus-penalty=X
NCTH=bonus-penalty=RND(100)
Theoretically, circle in NCTH crosshair should show bullets hit area. But it does not give such feedback as CTH bar in OCTH. Sometimesit this circle so big and the bullet passes so far from the target that not even believe that it was aimed shot.
But if it was the only way to overcome headshot game? I don't think so.
People shot in the head, not because it was easy. They did it because it was the most effective way to kill the enemy. And the price for every headshot was 90% AP.
And now let me introduce NightOps mod.
This mod uses its own engine with modified OCTH system. Probably some of you have already played it, if not then I recommend to play. The author took the original decision to keep a balance. Parameters of all weapons are almost identical, except for specific models. Once you took a gun in Drassen you can keep it till Meduna. AI are very dangerous. You can kill one of them in head, but next turn someone kill you. So the best tactic s to stay unseen. This means only silenced weapon and constant movement.
Сant say that the mod does not encourage headshots. Rather, it teaches to use them when appropriate. Excessive ease of the OCTH here smoothed by other gameplay elements preventing headshot abuse.
I think the creation of a completely new system was unnecessary. The old system is quite suitable. Moreover, it can be expanded with the use of some NCTH elements. "Headshot game" become a problem not because of its simplicity. New attachment system add so many bonuses, so every fully attached gun become imbalanced. And this is the biggest problem of whole project 1.13. Different people write different pieces of mods. Then they are combined into a single unit but come into conflict with each other. Perhaps you've noticed that if you disable NCTH, all weapon and armor lost all parameters linked to it. But what if someone has adapted them to the old system? Would then chance to hit head across the map as high?
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Civilian
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333897]
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Fri, 27 June 2014 05:36
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Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012 Location: Russian Federation |
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Ferix
Most of your statements will be true if you just replace NCTH with OCTH and "CTH bar" with "NCTH aperture size"
Both systems are stupid if you compare them to RL shooting, as it's a game, and you cannot simulate shooting with computer mouse
I have a (relatively small) RL shooting experience, and I can say that no computer simulation can be made close to it =)
Also, in RL bullets do not flight in straight lines (as laser rays), do you now that?
NCTH is much more flexible and scalable system, you can get completely different feeling with different settings.
And OCTH is not "simple and friendly", it uses very complex and not obvious calculations.
If you want the NCTH to feel more like OCTH, just use proper settings (not default) and get proper guns with attachments.
For example, in this video you can see how the shooting feels with custom ini settings and good gun attachments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP44DVaiQJo[/video]
youtube link
Unfortunately, you cannot simply add NCTH elements to the OCTH system, because they are made in completely different ways:
- OCTH calculates your CTH, than (if you win) fires at the center of the target. If you fail, it fires somewhere else.
- NCTH calculates your aperture size, then fires at random point within that aperture.
For example, NCTH is capable to actually move your shooting point if your target is moving (and you fail to compensate that) - you can never simulate this in OCTH because of it's nature.
This makes the following effect - you cannot just snipe the fast moving enemy, you have to suppress him first with autofire weapons.
Another good (and configurable) option is bullet deviation - set it higher, and you will not be able to snipe the enemy with pistol at 2x it's effective range even with perfect shooter and all lasers attached.
Also, autofire in OCTH is simply stupid - you fire bullets at random directions the same way as it was in Laser Squad on ZX Spectrum 20 years ago =)
NCTH tries to simulate recoil and how shooter compensates it.
As for other mods - it's just the matter of personal preference - some players still prefer vanilla, for example.
I have played NO mod and many others, and for me the 1.13 in 2014 version with adjusted NCTH gives most fun from tactical battles.
But still OCTH is useful and playable for those who likes it - that's what 1.13 is good at - everyone can play it in it's own way.
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333899]
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Fri, 27 June 2014 13:41
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Ferix |
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012 |
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SevenfmBoth systems are stupid if you compare them to RL shooting, as it's a game, and you cannot simulate shooting with computer mouse Agree. But I never thought of JA as a shooting simulator. I just give the orders to professional mercenaries, and they perform them as they can.
In my opinion my merc calculates his chances and tells me CTH. He says, "yes, I certainly hit this target". Or "I'm not sure, I think my chances are 50/50". And I, as the commander must decide to let him shoot, or change position. In NCTH I must personally calculate CTH based on the radius of the circle.
Now go to the video.
8:41 Barry shoot burst. Enemy is very close and circle is small. Miss all 3 shots.
Next Burst, circle a bit bigger(?). All 3 bullet hit target.
How could he miss from that distance? What calculations led to it?
As you saidSevenfmin RL bullets do not flight in straight lines (as laser rays), do you now that?
Yes, I know that. That's why I mentioned the effective range. Laser sight range =~300m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
Effective firing range 550 meters (point target)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74
Effective firing range 625m
You can adjust your sight to shoot beyond this range. Of course for assault rifles use large tolerances for accuracy than for sniper rifles. But hit into the body with a 300 m can any of them. It's not easy, but for a soldier with 100 marksmanship and good gun more than possible.
SevenfmAnd OCTH is not "simple and friendly", it uses very complex and not obvious calculations. It give me correct CTH. That's all I need to make decision.
SevenfmIf you want the NCTH to feel more like OCTH, just use proper settings (not default) and get proper guns with attachments. I need not old ballistic. I need an old crosshair showing the minimum information I required.
SevenfmUnfortunately, you cannot simply add NCTH elements to the OCTH system, because they are made in completely different ways:
- OCTH calculates your CTH, than (if you win) fires at the center of the target. If you fail, it fires somewhere else.
- NCTH calculates your aperture size, then fires at random point within that aperture. Ok, OCTH calculate chance. But how? It use some values, bonuses and penalties. Why not just extend the range of these values?
For example bullet deviation. In NCTH system this is some kind of magic effect. Soldier who shoots a gun a few months can not predict the behavior of the bullet? I think he can. If he knows that the weapon which he holds in his hands is not very accurate, we can roughly predict the chance to hit the target. Each weapon has a built-modifier to accuracy, positive or negative. Which increases with distance. At close range, you can hit the target with any weapon with a CTH close to 100%. But make a headshot with a shotgun at 500 m is almost impossible.
SevenfmFor example, NCTH is capable to actually move your shooting point if your target is moving (and you fail to compensate that) - you can never simulate this in OCTH because of it's nature. Why not?
Everything can be represented as bonus/penalty. As I say above - fires merc, not me. If he skilled enough, he can shoot even running target. Of course less likely than standing. Just one more penalty in the formula.
SevenfmAlso, autofire in OCTH is simply stupid - you fire bullets at random directions the same way as it was in Laser Squad on ZX Spectrum 20 years ago =)
NCTH tries to simulate recoil and how shooter compensates it. This is one of features I wish to move to OCTH. Theoretically, you can aim only the first bullet. Each subsequent will deviate a bit up and right/left.
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Civilian
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333901]
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Fri, 27 June 2014 14:51
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Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012 Location: Russian Federation |
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Quote:8:41 Barry shoot burst. Enemy is very close and circle is small. Miss all 3 shots.
Next Burst, circle a bit bigger(?). All 3 bullet hit target.
How could he miss from that distance? What calculations led to it?
The same for OCTH - one shot misses, the next one hits. So what is the difference? It's just randomness.
The statement "I can hit reliably from 400m with my AK/G3/AR" is a common mistake - it's not shooting-range - the enemy is moving, the bullets are flying, the hands are shaking =)
You can think of the circle size as approximate chance to hit - if it's comparable to the body width, you have a roughly 50% CTH, if it's green and small - the CTH is high.
In my games, shooting at the body at close range with small green aperture is almost always successfull. (though it's not realistic - see well known police and other real shootings at ranges 5-10 meters)
Also, having 50% OCTH does not mean that one of the two shots will hit - you still can miss 3-4 times in a row.
"What calculations led to it?" Nobody knows. Just randomness.
Quote:Ok, OCTH calculate chance. But how? It use some values, bonuses and penalties. Why not just extend the range of these values
You will see the problem if you look at the code. As I said, the OCTH calculation is by no means simple, and adding several new modifiers can break the whole balance.
This was one of the reasons why Headrock made NCTH - it's (relatively) easily configurable and more or less predictable.
Quote:That's why I mentioned the effective range. Laser sight range =~300m
I think that the "effective range" is not correct term if you speak of reliably hitting targets in combat situation.
Lasers are fully effective only in the nighttime.
Also, the difference between straight laser line and bullet trajectory may be 20-30 centimeters.
See ballistic charts:
Anyway, using one or another system is the matter of personal preference - you like OCTH, you use it, this system is fully supported in all builds.
If someone wants to play NCTH, he has to understand this system and learn some tricks (like shooting bursts aiming at the legs so that second-third bullets hit torso-head due to vertical recoil or using short bursts to compensate target movement)
If you think you can improve OCTH, keeping it simple and predictable - it would be very good and I would definitely want to try playing with that improved system.
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333904]
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Fri, 27 June 2014 16:16
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Ferix |
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012 |
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SevenfmThe statement "I can hit reliably from 400m with my AK/G3/AR" is a common mistake - it's not shooting-range - the enemy is moving, the bullets are flying, the hands are shaking =) Neither I nor you can hit a target with an assault rifle at a distance of 300 meters. But surely there are people capable to do it.
Saying shooting-range you mean "ideal conditions". I can provide such conditions to my men. Merc with high marksmanship sneaking up on the enemy. What was the distance between Barry and zombies in the video? 4 or 5 tiles? It is less than 100 meters. Now merc trying to shoot down standing still unalerted enemy. Shooting at stationary targets, almost like in shooting-range. In this condition OCTH system looks more realistic. In NCTH your chance to miss still very high.
Yes, I'm talking about default settings. But 99% of players use only this settings.
SevenfmIf you think you can improve OCTH, keeping it simple and predictable - it would be very good and I would definitely want to try playing with that improved system.
Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer. But I know something about guns. And I think that both systems could be improved. Because now both do not looks realistic.
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Civilian
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333937]
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Sun, 29 June 2014 14:54
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Tyxe |
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Messages:78
Registered:May 2012 Location: France |
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I have tried quite extensively various base sight vision.
I like the 18-20 values too, it makes the AI even better but the vanilla maps design did not support it well. Something is lost IMHO.
I understand you like better these values though, it has obvious advantages but it changes too much the gameplay for my taste. If the maps were bigger (like in AINMAS i think ? never tried it) i guess it would be very enjoyable.
Here are the NCtH parameters that i have changed :
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 100 (easy to make calculation, 200 does not add a lot)
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 4.0 (i don't want to OP the pistols and make weapons' range parameters at least a bit important in NCtH)
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0 (easy to calculate scope min range and very suitable, see scopes XML change)
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER = 1.0
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM = 100 (because scopes XML change i don't need that option, i understand it was needed before because scopes were so much overpowered)
Base NCtH :
BASE_EXP = 2.8
BASE_MARKS = 1.3
BASE_WIS = 0.6 (wisdom is already an awesome stat)
BASE_DEX = 1.3
NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE = 100 (same as NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE, useful because scopes much weaker, added bonus : make iron sight better and currently pitiful machine pistol/SMG a bit less so)
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.5 (it doesn't need to be increased further, mybe even decreased a little bit, especially since i have increased base range of all pistols by 3 tiles, base sight vision is the most important factor for the AI )
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE
After many tries between vanilla 13 and up to 20 base sight range, I currently use a base sight vision 16 but it really is the upper limit with vanilla maps IMO, i previously used 15 and consider it the best value for a vanilla feeling (and may very well switch back to it).
Now the most important the scope XML change :
Scope Mag factor of 2x/4x and PSO1/7x/10x and PSO3 scopes have respectively become 1.6/1.8/2/2.5 (i hesitate with 1.8/2/2.2/2.6 values, i have tested these two sets of values but i'm still undecided)
Much harder to hit now but the increased NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE and NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE help a bit here.
Min range for scopes with these parameters became now : 2x:16 4x:18 7x:20 10:25
I kept vision bonuses for scope but greatly decreased them to respectively 5% for scope 2x/10%/15% and up to 20% for the x10 and PSO3.
I removed the crazy,sneaky and i bet unnoticed by some people 10% vision base vision bonus provided by sunglasses in normal day light condition and decreased its bonus to 5% in bright light condition (instead of 20).
I more or less slightly changed various weapons stats.
Mainly i have increased the ready action point requirement of all of them (great variances but on average 4 for pistols, 6 for revolvers, 8 for machine pistols, 16 for SMG, 20 for AR, etc..), increased all pistols/revolvers range by 3, increase all pistol only aim level by one (but decrease action point requirement by 1 or 2).
I play on expert, latest unstable build (which is always very stable IMO).
The final result with these changes is that you have a vanilla felling playing the game but where the headshot game have disappeared and the gameplay improved (but his "nature" not modified hugely) IMHO.
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Corporal
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333955]
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Mon, 30 June 2014 06:00
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Griffinhart |
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Messages:12
Registered:June 2014 |
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Quick question - is it possible to swap between O/NCTH in build 6927 6967 without having to start a new game? I remember years ago there was a toggle in the Options menu, but it seems to have been removed.
-- Griffinhart
[Updated on: Mon, 30 June 2014 06:03] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335264]
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Sat, 30 August 2014 15:39
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Burzmali |
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Messages:248
Registered:March 2007 Location: Estonia |
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One of the features of JA, JA2 and first versions of 1.13 was consistency. I mean: you saw an enemy. You made a save. You shoot - damage 42. You reloaded, you shoot, and the damage was again 42. Not 41, not 17, not a total miss or whatever. Even if you played on for five turn, made a mistake, reloaded the same save and repeated the shot - it was damage 42. That's why I hated the "new system" where after reloading the result was not the same. I do not care what formula is used to calculate the damage. (Decades ago I had some training with AKM, so I know in what situations I have a chance to hit and when I do not - for example through the porthole of a armoured car moving in wilderness.)
Lately I downloaded ver 7297. Seems to me, somebody has now screwed up the old system also and I do not get the same result after reloading. wtf?
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335387]
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Tue, 02 September 2014 14:09
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Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012 Location: Russian Federation |
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Pyro
The problem is not only with CTH I think, but with the hard-to-find bug that makes enemy think that he has no CTH at all.
You can see it when you are aiming beyond the weapon's range and your merc says "can't hit" quote when he actually CAN and really HITS if you force him to fire.
The mentioned settings in cthconstants.ini help a bit, but not solve the problem completely.
The only one really effective solution is use modified gun progression when enemy start with rifles and shotguns (starting with m1 carbine and such).
This makes early battles more challenging and removes "pistol period".
One good example is altered gun progression in SDO mod.
From my experience, it's possible to make NCTH feel a bit more like CTH by bumping up overall accuracy and tweaking the constants, but stilll these systems are completely different and cannot be compared directly.
[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 14:15] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335401]
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Tue, 02 September 2014 20:45
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Pyro |
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Messages:11
Registered:April 2005 Location: Slovenia |
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Thanks for the answers. But it's still quite silly, in octh they will usually try to advance or at least do something, instead of just derping back and forth 1-3 tiles waiting to be shot. They did seem a bit more effective and advance more when I tweaked the parameters. Making only lucky shots(and suppressing my mercs a bit) is still better than default retard behavior.
[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 20:46] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335447]
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Thu, 04 September 2014 04:18
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Boge |
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Messages:55
Registered:July 2012 |
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I notice a lot of the items do not affect you as much without NCTH. For instance, the armor doesn't hinder your shot as much. Bipods don't hurt your aim at all when standing or crouch. The accuracy on guns is different. Instead of 85, it might say 15. Pistols aren't 6 and 7 anymore, but 0.
I'm missing the details in the tooltips that NCTH offers.
What can I do to make NCTH a good playing experience? The thing that annoys me the most is when I have a point blank shot and I shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, miss, miss, miss, miss. I can deal with the stupid AI issues.
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Corporal
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