Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348689 is a reply to message #332442] Fri, 03 February 2017 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbasd

 
Messages:13
Registered:February 2017
Hello

Sorry for bumping thread, but how to reduce AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE to the minimum ? I should set it for 0.0 ?

I dont want any penalties for using scopes

[Updated on: Fri, 03 February 2017 19:29]

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348699 is a reply to message #348689] Fri, 03 February 2017 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
If you want to remove the aim too close penalty completely you should set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD to 0.0.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348700 is a reply to message #348699] Fri, 03 February 2017 21:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbasd

 
Messages:13
Registered:February 2017
silversurfer wrote on Fri, 03 February 2017 20:26
If you want to remove the aim too close penalty completely you should set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD to 0.0.


I cannot find this in cthconstants.ini
I have version (7609)

[Updated on: Fri, 03 February 2017 21:16]

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348701 is a reply to message #348700] Fri, 03 February 2017 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
In that old version you will have to set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE to 0.0. AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD was added in a later version.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348712 is a reply to message #348701] Sat, 04 February 2017 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbasd

 
Messages:13
Registered:February 2017
silversurfer wrote on Fri, 03 February 2017 23:39
In that old version you will have to set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE to 0.0. AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD was added in a later version.


I thought that I downloaded the latest release :o
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348714 is a reply to message #348712] Sat, 04 February 2017 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
The latest so called "stable version". These are not done anymore because it's simply too much hassle to prepare them.

Nowadays you basically have two good choices:

1. 7609 like you have downloaded but use one of Sevenfm's experimental exes which are based on 7609. He does a fantastic job at improving the AI (check out his gameplay videos) and he also incorporates bug fixes from the development trunk into the old 7609 build. Version 7609 is still needed for some mods.

2. The current development version which can be downloaded here. This has all the new features and bug fixes. Some mods are compatible with it or if you don't plan to use mods you can safely try out this build.

If you plan to use mods always check out which game version is required. The mod description should have that info.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348715 is a reply to message #348714] Sun, 05 February 2017 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbasd

 
Messages:13
Registered:February 2017
silversurfer wrote on Sat, 04 February 2017 18:42


Thanks for help shy

I downloaded Stable 7609+AI (15.12.2016)

[Updated on: Sun, 05 February 2017 00:59]

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348717 is a reply to message #348715] Sun, 05 February 2017 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
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Registered:December 2012
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cbasd wrote on Sun, 05 February 2017 03:34
I downloaded Stable 7609+AI (15.12.2016)

Actual version is r381 here:
http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21864&goto=348541&#msg_348541



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r727) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"I like sharks. They're soothing"


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351936 is a reply to message #335450] Sat, 06 January 2018 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CareBear

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2016
sevenfm wrote on Thu, 04 September 2014 09:58
Boge
It's best to play NCTH with mods - SDO (NCTH Overhaul), AFS, Aimnas.
Experienced players usually tweak cthconstants.ini to make shooting more enjoyable.

Here is an example of my NCTH minimod - tweaked cthconstants.ini and weapons.xml (handling values changed). You can use it or at least test it and see the difference with the stock 1.13. (put it into your game profile)

link

As for my settings:
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 35.0 (the optimal value may be from 15 to 50, though even 35 is a lot)
DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE = 12
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.4

To make scopes more useful at less than optimal range
AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = -2.0

I also increase auto weapons effectiveness
NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE = 100

Increased bullet deviation makes gun range more important - you cannot hit small targets (heads) reliably with a short range pistol, even with a sniper scope on it =)
MAX_BULLET_DEV = 10.0

I also increase movement penalty, because at low values it doesn't affect shooting much
MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE = 4.0


Seven could you upload the file again? Or at least upload the cthconstant.ini and weapons.xml. Havve you changed the range of pistol? Its ridiculous, and can compete with SMGs, so enemies can just rush one turn and then outshoot you with their pistols...
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351937 is a reply to message #351936] Sat, 06 January 2018 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
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Registered:December 2012
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CareBear wrote on Sun, 07 January 2018 00:05

Seven could you upload the file again? Or at least upload the cthconstant.ini and weapons.xml. Havve you changed the range of pistol? Its ridiculous, and can compete with SMGs, so enemies can just rush one turn and then outshoot you with their pistols...

I don't have that old file anymore.
You can download CTHConstants.ini file with settings that I prefer from here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fkjlbsjjwtqrf64/CTHConstants.ini?dl=0
demo video, testing NCTH balance with custom settings and Ja2+AI:

I also uploaded custom CTHConstants.ini as part of 7609 modpack in Data-User.
I did not change any weapon range in weapons.xml, it's recommended to play with weapon balance mods like SDO or AFS.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r727) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"I like sharks. They're soothing"


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351939 is a reply to message #351936] Sat, 06 January 2018 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:200
Registered:December 2017
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I play both, and often change during a running campaign
when the actual cth system gets boring or i am too disappointed by the results as both have their flaws.
Thats done by flipping the byte at offset C06338h in ram from 00h to 01h,
without any recognizeable issues in the game,
which brings me to the main reason for this message, my question:

Why has the Ncth/Octh switch been moved from the options that are accessable during gameplay
(as it still was e.g. in 4870, btw is its number just a coincidence? as we start at tile 4870)
to a spot where a hack is required to switch on the fly,
this forces most players to drop a campaign when they are not satisfied with their cth selection.

Well, perhaps now more are able to switch cth whenever they like ;)
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351941 is a reply to message #351939] Sun, 07 January 2018 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
The switch was removed just like many other experimental switches because it wasn't needed anymore. NCTH isn't experimental anymore. It works fine and if some player doesn't like its default settings he can always change them.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351948 is a reply to message #351941] Sun, 07 January 2018 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:200
Registered:December 2017
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silversurfer
The switch was removed just like many other experimental switches because it wasn't needed anymore. NCTH isn't experimental anymore. It works fine and if some player doesn't like its default settings he can always change them.

I agree with your statement but cant recognize an answer to my question
why was it moved to a spot where it is accesable only on start of a new game?


There are reasons to switch cth amd other start options:

In my actual campaign with experimental exe, shooting at moving targets with octh appears broken,
i am glad to continue the campaign with ncth which i might have ended otherwise.

Some Guy on YT played an IM campaign and repeatedly got iirc freezes(or some other gamebraking stuff) in combat
so he was glad to do the ram hack and continue the LP.

etc
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351950 is a reply to message #351948] Sun, 07 January 2018 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1574
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
townltu wrote on Sun, 07 January 2018 17:58
In my actual campaign with experimental exe, shooting at moving targets with octh appears broken,
i am glad to continue the campaign with ncth which i might have ended otherwise.

Something is not broken just because you didn't read the feature description before playing something experimental.
Also, you can disable OCTH improvements any time with option which was also mentioned in feature description.
Anyway, I agree that if switching between OCTH/NCTH is possible without any bugs, there's no reason to disable it.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r727) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"I like sharks. They're soothing"


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351952 is a reply to message #351950] Sun, 07 January 2018 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
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Registered:December 2017
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I did ot intend to offense you or make negative statements about your work,
so i tried to express that it was only my personal impression by adding "appears" in front of "broken".

Sorry!
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351954 is a reply to message #351948] Mon, 08 January 2018 01:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
townltu wrote on Sun, 07 January 2018 13:58

I agree with your statement but cant recognize an answer to my question
why was it moved to a spot where it is accesable only on start of a new game?

It was never intended to be switchable during a campaign as far as I remember. That's why it's in the start options and not the Ini or game options. The experimental switch was only there during testing so if players would experience severe bugs they can at least continue their game. Most players cannot compile their own exe so they would have had to wait for a new release.
Another reason for the switch was to quickly compare results with OCTH in order to balance NCTH.

In general I don't see much reason to switch the systems during a campaign except for cheating maybe.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351955 is a reply to message #351954] Mon, 08 January 2018 02:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SmokinGun

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2007
Location: Land of New Rising Sun
silversurfer wrote on Sun, 07 January 2018 23:59

In general I don't see much reason to switch the systems during a campaign except for cheating maybe.



Hmm. My experience between OCTH/NCTH varies wildly pending on which mod/version of 1.13 is being played.

Playing Arulco Vacations 1.8 mod version with latest AI exe and NCTH is awesome. Feels pretty balanced.

Playing Arulco Revisited 1.4 mod with NCTH is absolutely abysmal suckage. Rather than being able to switch in the options menu I risked breaking the game by reverting to OCTH via INI editor.

It seems depending on which mod and what 1.13 version of NCTH is being played- makes a tremendous difference between "enjoyable playability" and total shitshow of a game.

With Arul Revisited 1.4 (an older version of NCTH) at its most stable 7609 release, it felt unplayable using NCTH. While playing both Arul Vacations 1.8 and Urban Chaos 4.5 NCTH seemed great. I'm guessing other peoples experiences vary with tastes and versions/mods being played. But I can certainly affirm NCTH varies wildly in playability and enjoyment based on its build. So essentially disabling the option to switch between OCTH/NCTH in the preferences can be a game breaker playing older mods.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351959 is a reply to message #351955] Mon, 08 January 2018 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
SmokinGun wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 01:48

With Arul Revisited 1.4 (an older version of NCTH) at its most stable 7609 release, it felt unplayable using NCTH. While playing both Arul Vacations 1.8 and Urban Chaos 4.5 NCTH seemed great. I'm guessing other peoples experiences vary with tastes and versions/mods being played. But I can certainly affirm NCTH varies wildly in playability and enjoyment based on its build. So essentially disabling the option to switch between OCTH/NCTH in the preferences can be a game breaker playing older mods.


On the other hand, I'm right now in early phase (32 progress) of a playthrough with the latest AFS (so much like 4.5 Urban Chaos), and honestly I'm bored to death. My sniper IMP got some .30car starting rifle and with sig sight bought from Tony on day 1 he so far hits 70% of headshots from max range. Got him M1 carbine with no32 4x scope recently, and now he does it even outside of range (literally the moment anyone enters the visual range of 4x scope, it's bullet to the head time, even though it is kinda outside of rifle range by some margin). Everyone else is completely useless, Ira spots for him, everybody else is here just to make some noise and discourage enemies from approaching him. It's even more OCTH than OCTH cheeky but it is horrible NCTH cheeky it is like if you read the idea of NCTH and then do it completely the other way round big grin

And that is perfectly fine. The whole point of a modable project like this is that everyone can adjust the game to his taste. But the whole idea of NCTH was to move away from that kind of super gamey gameplay. For some weird reason, in reality, modern armies don't just throw away their assault rifles and equip everybody with WW1 bolt action rifles and go around headshotting everyone. Instead, NCTH tries to be more "realistic", making volume of fire more important and strictly better than super precise single shots. Just like it has been in real life for quite some time. It wasn't always super succesful at that, but newer versions do it pretty fine. And some mods like SDO make it even better, both by fixing weapon progression to make more sense with NCTH and modifying the NCTH itself.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351960 is a reply to message #351959] Mon, 08 January 2018 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:200
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
LatZee wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 15:06
...

And that is perfectly fine. The whole point of a modable project like this is that everyone can adjust the game to his taste. But the whole idea of NCTH was to move away from that kind of super gamey gameplay. For some weird reason, in reality, modern armies don't just throw away their assault rifles and equip everybody with WW1 bolt action rifles and go around headshotting everyone. Instead, NCTH tries to be more "realistic", making volume of fire more important and strictly better than super precise single shots. Just like it has been in real life for quite some time. It wasn't always super succesful at that, but newer versions do it pretty fine. And some mods like SDO make it even better, both by fixing weapon progression to make more sense with NCTH and modifying the NCTH itself.


Armies dont throw away their ARs because they allow everybody to get a kill every 200-400(?) rounds,
(so compared to real numbers a crappy mrk 60 merc is already a good shot,
and realistic ammo/kill ratio would probably make JA2 weapons unuseable before anybody dies, how cool would that be irl
!)
while only a few people are able to combine the vectors of target&projectile in their head
and also coordinate body&tool so that both meet at the desired spot.
Besides JA2 was imo not designed as an army vs army game, its more guerilla warfare.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351962 is a reply to message #351960] Mon, 08 January 2018 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
townltu wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 15:13

Armies dont throw away their ARs because they allow everybody to get a kill every 200-400(?) rounds,
(so compared to real numbers a crappy mrk 60 merc is already a good shot,
and realistic ammo/kill ratio would probably make JA2 weapons unuseable before anybody dies, how cool would that be irl
!)
while only a few people are able to combine the vectors of target&projectile in their head
and also coordinate body&tool so that both meet at the desired spot.
Besides JA2 was imo not designed as an army vs army game, its more guerilla warfare.


Ah yes, sorry, guerrilas all over the world are throwing their AKs to the garbage because Mosin Nagant with a PEM scope is a weapon of mass destruction and AK is basically a club that can be used to make some noise that might scare and suppress people at distance. Just like in AFS/UC and OCTH cheeky

It's ok. You like OCTH and want NCTH to be like it. As mentioned, there are mods that do it, there are ways to do it yourself if you want to, or you can, you know, use OCTH, it's not like it is gone. But let's not pretend that it makes any sense cheeky NCTH is goint in the other direction by design, and complaining about it misses the point completely.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351963 is a reply to message #351962] Mon, 08 January 2018 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:200
Registered:December 2017
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LatZee wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 16:24
...
Pls read my 1st message in this thread, while i like both its not about N vs O -cth
but the placement of the ncth/octh switch, (so it was somewhat off topic;)
and add to that the switches for iron man and interrupt system(even more ot!)
which both also appear(IM 2 and IS 3 campaigns) to have no negative effect on the game when switched on the fly.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351964 is a reply to message #351963] Mon, 08 January 2018 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
townltu wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 16:10
Pls read my 1st message in this thread, while i like both its not about N vs O -cth
but the placement of the ncth/octh switch, (so it was somewhat off topic;)
and add to that the switches for iron man and interrupt system(even more ot!)
which both also appear(IM 2 and IS 3 campaigns) to have no negative effect on the game when switched on the fly.



And that is also perfectly fine, I'm always for more options, when possible, but if the guys actually working on it don't think so, oh well... cheeky

I, kinda, "took exception" to calling some really "bad" NCTH implementations good (which doesn't really mean that it is a bad CTH system in itself, just that making NCTH work, more or less, like OCTH is not a good NCTH implementaion). SDO is a good NCTH implementaion, it makes NCTH work better, while maintaing the goals of NCTH (making shooting work more in line with reality, avoiding headshot game, increasing the number of shots needed per hit, making suppresion important, and so on...), AFS/UC is, at this point, more of a OCTH pretending to be NCTH cheeky which is, as I said, perfectly fine. But calling it a good NCTH system is completely missing the point of NCTH.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352010 is a reply to message #351964] Sat, 13 January 2018 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
While I like the concept of NCTH and its higher reliance on volume of fire, I'm struggling quite a bit with it (Experienced difficulty). I fear that for the sake of balancing later gameplay, the result is making the already challenging early game even harder.

Your mercs are generally outnumbered, and therefore the requirement for higher volume of fire plays in the enemy's favour when they need such benefit the least, when everyone has nothing but pistols. I remember the need to close the range early on, from my days of playing 1.13 years ago (version 3000-something, I think), but now even night fights are troublesome in a way I don't remember them being before.

I often find myself at max range (12+ tiles) and unable to get closer to get a better shot without massively exposing my guys, to the point day or night makes little difference because I'm already spotted at that distance even without NVGs. In that situation, the enemy can easily afford taking pot shots until someone takes a bad hit. I can't. Cover seems more fickle than ever, feeling somewhat ineffective unless the merc is in a perfect position against a single enemy. Against 2-3, the "danger view" commonly becomes red all over unless the character falls back considerably, only to repeat the same situation at a later time.

The only times I can operate with an acceptable degree of effectiveness is basically when I have tools to break line of sight, like buildings or very dense cover (thick woods). This gives way to boring exploitative tactics, like the classic "hunker down in a shack and shoot them down one by one as they walk through the door". Most wilderness fights lack such, so they're a pain.

Overall, it just doesn't feel fun, between frustrating straight fights with uncomfortable levels of savescumming, and dull exploits.

So, ranting aside, what am I doing wrong? How can I alleviate these issues without turning the later game into a cakewalk? That's sort of what happened with the old system.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352011 is a reply to message #352010] Sat, 13 January 2018 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
I haven't played in a long time but last time I played JA2 1.13 I used a modification for enemy gear which gives them more old rifles, shotguns and SMGs from the start. Once I was through the first fight I had a nice assortment of starter weapons. My IMP had good equipment from the start because IMPs get trait specific weapons which helped a lot. Of course one can always hire mercs with better equipment to have an easier start but that usually means less mercs because of financial restrictions. Also I always try to scavenge some stuff from wilderness sectors and farms before going for a town.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352012 is a reply to message #332442] Sat, 13 January 2018 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
Well, now that is a problem... for some reason, the game is still using the old way of weapon progression where first everyone is fighting with sticks and stones, and then at some point someone invents a pistol and so on cheeky while that kind of progression makes some kind of sense with OCTH where weapon range is THE defining (could even be called sole important) weapon stat, but it makes no sense whatsoever with NCTH. In NCTH, pistols should never be first choice weapon (like they are not in reality, for no military or paramilitary organization).

There are couple of ways how to solve this. You can use one of mods that changes equipment/progression. Silversurfer mentioned a mod that he used that is called Lev's progression, found at http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=22160&goto=347016&#msg_347016

The files might be gone, but I can probably find them and put them somewhere if needed cheeky

My poison of choice is SDO, found here... http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=20708&goto=351386&#msg_351386

It is also kinda problematic, as it hasn't been updated for quite some time and will have problems with newer versions of 1.13, but is perfectly usable with, for example, 7609 version (which has the possible advantage of Sevenfm's modifications being available, http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21864&start=0& ). Again, I have a, for personal use, kinda up to date "lite" version (lite as I removed most of the stuff that wasn't really tied to weapon progression/performance, like changes to mercs, vehicles and so on, to make it easier to keep it updated with changes), if someone wants it cheeky

AFS, http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=20916&start=0& is also an option, although, as I said, it is kinda getting more OCTHish, both in weapon progession (so it is often still pistols and so on early), and performance. But it is still an excellent addition, certainly worthy of a try.

The other solution which is probably used by many people is, well, Bobby Ray cheeky put it on higher qulity, give yourselfs some more money at the start and poof, problems solved cheeky

You can also make more than 1 IMP, they get decent-ish weapons at the start (if they have some weapons related skill, so auto weapons, marksman and so on).

The last two "solutions" have the advantage of being asymmetrical, as the opponents will be stuck in the pistol land early, unlike you. So that would make early game a bit easier.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352013 is a reply to message #352011] Sat, 13 January 2018 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
silversurfer wrote on Sat, 13 January 2018 16:15
I haven't played in a long time but last time I played JA2 1.13 I used a modification for enemy gear which gives them more old rifles, shotguns and SMGs from the start. Once I was through the first fight I had a nice assortment of starter weapons. My IMP had good equipment from the start because IMPs get trait specific weapons which helped a lot. Of course one can always hire mercs with better equipment to have an easier start but that usually means less mercs because of financial restrictions. Also I always try to scavenge some stuff from wilderness sectors and farms before going for a town.

Hmm, that's interesting. Would that require detailed tweaking or would bumping up REGULAR_EQUIPMENT_QUALITY_MODIFIER and perhaps ADMIN_EQUIPMENT_QUALITY_MODIFIER a couple of points do? Don't know about ELITE_EQUIPMENT_QUALITY_MODIFIER, since it seems that gets a bonus by default.

How do enemy loadouts work for the three enemy levels by default? Does enemy loadout generate when you first encounter a team of goons, or earlier?

Gotta check out those mods, LatZee. Thank you for your comments! The problem with mods is usually compatibility with the latest builds, but we'll see.

EDIT: Damn, Lev's progression mod is 404. Anyone care to host it somewhere?

[Updated on: Sun, 14 January 2018 00:32]




Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352014 is a reply to message #352013] Sun, 14 January 2018 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
Found the version 2, I've put it up on

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmOS3PWnXOd2bNFzd2qOHkk1lMI

Lev's progresiion shouldn't have any problems with new versions, as it is strictly only inventory changes big grin
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352015 is a reply to message #352014] Sun, 14 January 2018 01:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
I uploaded version 1 and 2.1 of Lev's weapon progression modifications on SVN. Pick your favorite poison...



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352019 is a reply to message #332442] Sun, 14 January 2018 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Excellent, thanks!

What'd you guys say is the right Bobby Ray's quality setting using Lev's progression? The standard x2 seems insufficient to keep up with the modified enemy progress. I don't think Lev modded BR. The default's supposed to represent one step ahead of that, from the looks of it.

Can the setting be changed mid-game? I'm several days into my current playthrough.

Also, I've taken a peek into SDO's CTHConstants.ini, and there are substantial differences compared to the latest unstable build (8511). I could spot the following at first glance if I'm reading correctly:

- Higher iron sight effectiveness (33 > 25) + slightly higher laser sight effect on iron (17 > 15)
- Tighter maximum range (1.0 < 1.1)
- Higher effect of gravity past max range (4.5 < 6.0)
- No change when shooting targets from the side (1.0 < 2.0)*
- Considerably higher bullet deviation (8.0 > 5.0)
- MUCH higher AI range tolerance for shots (1.75 > 1.4)
- Considerably higher accuracy drop past max range (0.85 > 0.5)

*This is a tricky one for me: normally, shooting at someone from the side shouldn't make much of a difference. But if the target's prone and the shooter's somewhat close, the impact should be huge.

I'm sure there are finer changes, but I think the major effect of the aforementioned tweaks is that the AI will try and shoot from much farther away (175% max range instead of 140%) and with harsher effects on its own accuracy, between the altered general accuracy drop, gravity and deviation beyond max range.

This can be assumed to result in a lot of wasted time and ammo on the enemy's part. Certainly an easier time for my mercs and I, to some extent: it'd help entertain Deidranna's goons when spotted from afar. Close quarters combat wouldn't change much, it seems, other than encouraging the player to stay within effective range. Worth a try, overall.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352022 is a reply to message #352019] Sun, 14 January 2018 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2301
Registered:May 2009
BR progress cannot be changed mid game unless you use a debugger. I'm always playing with BR on 2 for quality and quantity. Check Tony for better stuff or get it from enemies/elites. If BR had all the good stuff too early it would be boring for me because I like to find better stuff after fights. These are the "Hey! Nice stuff!" moments. happy
I also leave "progress speed of item choices" at "normal".



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352025 is a reply to message #352022] Sun, 14 January 2018 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
silversurfer wrote on Sun, 14 January 2018 12:12
BR progress cannot be changed mid game unless you use a debugger. I'm always playing with BR on 2 for quality and quantity. Check Tony for better stuff or get it from enemies/elites. If BR had all the good stuff too early it would be boring for me because I like to find better stuff after fights. These are the "Hey! Nice stuff!" moments. happy
I also leave "progress speed of item choices" at "normal".

Yeah, but I mean to keep it on par with Lev's progression mod, since otherwise early on BR stocks pistols and a couple of SMGs at best, while there would be early rifles around "in the wild".

Perhaps quality 3 or 4 would do? I'm not sure what each level comprises.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352026 is a reply to message #352019] Sun, 14 January 2018 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
Shadow86 wrote on Sun, 14 January 2018 14:06

I'm sure there are finer changes, but I think the major effect of the aforementioned tweaks is that the AI will try and shoot from much farther away (175% max range instead of 140%) and with harsher effects on its own accuracy, between the altered general accuracy drop, gravity and deviation beyond max range.

This can be assumed to result in a lot of wasted time and ammo on the enemy's part. Certainly an easier time for my mercs and I, to some extent: it'd help entertain Deidranna's goons when spotted from afar. Close quarters combat wouldn't change much, it seems, other than encouraging the player to stay within effective range. Worth a try, overall.



SDO makes larger general changes, so it can't be judged only on CHTConstants.

First thing, it is a complete weapon progression rebalance. There are smgs and rifles available from coolness 1. Most mercs (and enemies) get them by default. There are even early game machine guns (like BAR) which can be acquired very early (from day 1 at Tony with a bit of luck). Also, shotguns are more useful, bordering on even overpowered with the amount of suppression the buckshot causes cheeky

It uses longer base view range, which creates situations where visual acquisition range is not necessarily conductive to immediate shooting. So combat gets less "plop down to the ground and shoot at everything you see as soon as you see it". Early on, you'll generally have to get a bit closer or shoot just for suppression. Sometimes, if there is not a good way to flank/advance, you might end up in a bit of a stalemate, where you can only exchange inefficient fire with the enemy, which is basically the way that combat in open spaces looks in reality cheeky those changes in CTHConstants are to encourage AI to shoot from those distances which are a bit longer than the vanilla 1.13.

Since it is expected that you'll waste more ammo, it is more readily available, both in drops and from Tony.

Next big change (which is, mechanically, horribly gamey, but useful) is that lower magnification scopes (up to 5x or so) dont give vision range bonuses. This more or less fixes the biggest JA2 problem nowadays, that AI is bad at using scopes, and so, once you get them, the game kinda degenerates into you shooting at them and they never even seeing you. So, as the scopes are less gamebreaking, they are much more available, so 3x rifle scopes or the old 4x scopes (like no.32 or PEM) are very easily obtainable from the start, which helps with NCTH,

Now, a bad thing (if you are used to the "normal" 1.13) is that even with a scope, rifles are still relatively bad. Not useless. But relatively bad. In vanilla 1.13 or something like AFS, if you make, for example, a sniper expert IMP and and get him something like M1 carbine with No.32 scope, they become one man army (or at least they would, if M1 carbine wasn't kinda unreasonably bad in vanilla 1.13 having same range as the Thompson or 9mm carbines, which is not very realistic cheeky ). Quite literally. In SDO, someone like that is going to be useful because he can kinda break those stalemate situations, by getting a hit every now and then at those larger distances, but they will miss a lot. Generally the hit rates are lower, and that means that it can be dangerous getting caught with a slow firing weapon if enemies do get closer. Especially so if you use some kind of scope that blocks iron sights as that means you'll basically never hit anyone if they get too close. Meaning, having some kind of quicker sidearm (a pistol, machine pistol or smaller smg or even a small shotgun) is absolutely necessary.

It also means that rifles are horrible weapons for unskilled mercs. So if you want your Ira, MD or Barry to be kinda useful, it is better to give them something that can at least be useful even if they never hit anything, but still do a bit of suppression. Or score a lucky hit simply through the increased volume of fire.

There are a lot more changes, it is generally harder to carry around lots of stuff and so on and on. It certainly takes some time to get used to all the changes (or revert some of them if you don't like them). And of course, it is not for everyone. It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. It would be very boring if everyone liked the same things cheeky
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352034 is a reply to message #332442] Mon, 15 January 2018 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Which bits of SDO are you keeping in order to achieve compatibility with the latest dev builds, LatZee?

Myself, I'm experimenting with a combination of Lev's progression mod with higher cover effectiveness (COVER_SYSTEM_TREE_EFFECTIVENESS) and CTHConstants changes similar to SDO and earlier versions, encouraging the AI to shoot from farther away while lessening certain scope penalties and increasing accuracy drop past max range (including gravity effect).

Will comment further once I've played with these changes for a while.

[Updated on: Mon, 15 January 2018 16:58]




Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352035 is a reply to message #352034] Mon, 15 January 2018 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
Shadow wrote on Mon, 15 January 2018 15:53
Which bits of SDO are you keeping in order to achieve compatibility with the latest dev builds, LatZee?


Well, the really necessary part is updating AmmoTypes.xml or else weapons do practically no damage. Besides that, I add items that come with new features (so, anti air missiles, bear traps, riot shields and stuff like that), keep JA2_Options and Skills_Settings.xml updated, and all the rest I have either removed, as things like Merc changes I consider more of Strohmann's preferance than the core part of SDO, or are not all that super important (like adjusting new merchants a bit and non essential stuff like that).

As I said, I do it for personal use, seeing as I did kick out or change some things, wouldn't really want to distribute it as I don't know whether Strohmann would be happy with it, but I can put it up somewhere if you want to give it a try, as it would be stupid for you to have to do some of the drudge work updating it again cheeky
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352036 is a reply to message #352035] Mon, 15 January 2018 19:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
LatZee wrote on Mon, 15 January 2018 13:38
I can put it up somewhere if you want to give it a try, as it would be stupid for you to have to do some of the drudge work updating it again cheeky

Go ahead! It's not necessarily my intent to reproduce SDO itself, but I'll see if I can make some sense of it and extract further things of interest. I've modded a number of other games, but haven't tinkered much with JA2 1.13.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352037 is a reply to message #352036] Mon, 15 January 2018 21:04 Go to previous message
LatZee

 
Messages:64
Registered:December 2015
Ok, this should contain everything needed, so if something doesn't work, I probably fucked up cheeky

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmOS3PWnXOd2bVzhWHg3b51IcHo
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