Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335471]
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Thu, 04 September 2014 21:39  
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 Boge |
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Messages:55
Registered:July 2012 |
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Thanks. I'll definitely try a couple of these options.
SDO is for an earlier version of 1.13. It's not updated since the stable release. I'm also not sure I'm a fan of the new items. And AR seems to have too much stuff lying around. Every single thing I open has something in it. Too many handouts.
[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2014 21:56] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #336758]
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Fri, 17 October 2014 17:51
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| grim |
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Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France |
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Well, in all fairness, NCTH feels very hard when at the beginning of a campaign, but when you get some stuff (weapons, attachments) and better stats on your mercs, it suddenly feels easy, you make a lot more hits.
It's especially sensible with burst/auto shots. When you manage to have more recoil management than the weapon kicks, you suddenly have a killing machine. Look for grips, bipods, and low recoil weapons for that. By the way, I tend to use leg shot a lot when shooting auto, if the weapon has some recoil with my merc, some bullets end in the torso or head, else, they just fly over.
Aiming makes a huge difference in NCTH, however it's statistical, it doesn't garanty a hit. Try to look at the aiming circle, find the good balance between APs spent and circle radius reduced, as there are often efficiency steps.
I don't know your mercs, but marksmanship isn't the only stat taken into account for a shot. Dex, Wis, Exp play a huge role depending on what and how you shoot. Str helps a lot for the recoil (Steroid is a real killer with an auto weapon mid game).
You should have a look at CTHConstants.ini, it has all the parameters you need to tweak if you want to, and a lot of things are explained there. If you want to improve iron sight accuracy, Silversurfer (i guess it was him) implemented a parameter for it: IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS
[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2014 17:52] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337130]
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Sat, 25 October 2014 12:51
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| Alansa |
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Messages:2
Registered:October 2014 |
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Playing NCTH and finding it a bit of a nightmare TBH. Raven with a SV98 and can't hit a barn door forget a head shot(if it was an option). All 3 of my snipers are hopeless and the rest not much better.
Must be doing something wrong but the guns are in good condition, bipod while lying prone and aimed shot with max AP at perfect ranges yet get 20% hit rate if even that.
Is there really no way back to OCTH with Build: 7435 mid game. Maybe some dark sorcery I'm unaware of?
[Updated on: Sat, 25 October 2014 12:52] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Civilian
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #338612]
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Mon, 29 December 2014 04:24
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| JA2 Fanatic |
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Messages:40
Registered:February 2005
Location: Vienna/austria |
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have to add here for the undecided. i played through drassen counterattack yesterday, with 120+ enemy, in 2 seperate battle.
i had 8 mercs in the sector, and ~40 militia. i play aruclo revisited, had only 2 2x scopes and 1 match sight, rest iron sights. pistols, calico and SMGs.
the values are all default, as NCTH is set up in the latest 7609 october release.
it was very painfull i am not sure, it made me switch back to octh.
NCTH does not work for me with lots of enemies, they rush you down to easy and pile up and shoot you in mass.
NCTH forces you to take trades, to trade bullets with the enemy, and as soon as you do that against superiour numbers you loose. you basically roll the dice, few times to often for my taste.
unreliable performance of the shooting, increase gun range problems.
my SMG guys get outgunned at 10 to 15 tiles by hordes of redshirts with pistols. why a pistol has 10tiles/100m range is unclear for me, 93R got 14/140m range...? a machinepistol? average pistol should have like 5 tile/50meter max range imho.
so you get outgunned by AI with 10-14 tile weapons at that stage, while you have like 20 tiles range, and yet your sweet spot between 20 and 15 tiles range is minimal and with NCTH you can not reliable produce results in the time the enemy ran 5 tiles to close the distance.
i like the NCTH as i see what it wants to do, but for it to work i would need to reduce the enemy numbers i have a lot. with "realistic" amount of enemys, realistic hit chance would work i guess, but when there are more than 40+ and sometimes a lot more in the sector(with reinforcements), the NCTH system falls apart for me. the few shots you need to make count, miss more often than not and 1 or 2 turns later there are 5 enemys in your face hosing you down with pistols, while you can make 1 or best 2 full aimed shots in prone position for like 50% hit chance at best.
i went back to OCTH unless i find a way to get simply more accuracy in NCTH. i can hardly cope with my difficulty settings in NCTH 
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Corporal
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345306 is a reply to message #338614]
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Thu, 05 May 2016 06:31
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| raditzvisnar |
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Messages:36
Registered:April 2016
Location: Indonesia |
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Hi all,
I just recently installed 7609, really love new features, love the new crosshair with NCTH, but why my charcater directly infront of enemy, and the crosshair also small, and aiming for the torso(not the hardest part of the body)and still MISS???? Is this almost the same as in the real life? When someone aim your torso, in front of you, after you open the door, and you miss that bullet....in my opinion only flash or quicksilver or magneto or neo can do that...or...you are so very very very blessed..
Rare situation for me....i can understand for long range aiming...may be the range, may be the wind/your health or moral condition, etc.
Is there any option to use new crosshair but still in OCTH? Or maybe a little tweak of NCTH to more logic (long range aiming, i love NTCH...after that case...okay may be bug or glitch)...
 
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345310 is a reply to message #345309]
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Thu, 05 May 2016 16:51
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| raditzvisnar |
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Messages:36
Registered:April 2016
Location: Indonesia |
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Mm..kinda strange, no attachment at all...the merc is lynx, holding glock, in front of enemy after the enemy open the door, let' s say about 1m or 1,5m, the aiming circle was small..and still miss! I had no idea at that time..all i could see is an enemy wearing red shirt, and green trouser(not badguy wearing anti-telephatic helmet, or guy wearing red with thunder logo on his chest)...but i really love NCTH when it comes to long range aim, you must wait, until enemy more closer to you, still aiming, and when you get smaller circle, BAM...hole in enemy's torso. And i also love the size...OCTH for me is to small..more simple but to small.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345319 is a reply to message #345318]
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Fri, 06 May 2016 12:24
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Yes, as far as gun range and shooting goes. This has always been the way, since v1.00. Using 'realistic' ranges would skew the game too much - for example, there would be no point in sniper rifles if the entire map were well withing pistol range, no?
Bigmaps (used in AIMNAS) are much bigger, afaik the ratio there is more akin to 1 tile ~ 3 to 4 meters.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #346380 is a reply to message #332442]
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Wed, 27 July 2016 03:30
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| Falconroid |
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Messages:1
Registered:July 2016 |
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My 2 cents as an old fan...
Comparing to my shooting experience in real life and other mil-sim games, I think NCTH constructed a great framework but contains some very poor judgement on settings. Generally it over estimated the magnification effect of the scope (or the size of the target down range) and over exaggerated the close range penalty, by a lot... Making it a potentially realistic system but yet extremely not realistic due to bad settings.
Also it way way over estimated the importance of laser pointers/indicators.
let me find some pictures from google... Oops as new member I cannot post link or pictures  I will try to tell the story without pictures then...
1. A 4x scope like ACOG should be very handy for 100m shooting, it's center reticle range finding block width is based on 100m chest target width. and that width is yet a small part of the view when targeting on 100m range.
Why on earth should we punish a 4x scope on short range?
on the other hand for an average shooter 4x scope is most comfortable for 200m shooting:
it takes some effort for an average shooter hitting something beyond that on a 4x scope, say 300m above.
but a 6x scope is pretty ideal for that job.
and 6x at 100m is a bit too much but still can be aimed pretty easily...
yes it would take more effort aiming, but it will be deadly accurate (if you know about elevation/zeroing)
This link has some great pictures to help visualizing:
ww w.ar15.co m/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=79&t=130844
(please get ride of the spaces)
and that brought question 2.
why on earth should prone reduce vertical spread of the bullet? it's more of a elevation/zeroing thing.
I believe we need to consider aiming accuracy in 3 parts:
a) pointing the gun accurately is one, a proper scope is definitely gonna help.
b ) controlling the rifle properly and shooting properly is important, that is down to dexterity and marksmanship of course.
c) then there's knowing the bullet drop, ranging, wind and moving target correction etc. that's high level marksmanship and sniper training.
then 3.
Why on earth should the laser pointer help that much?
it indeed help on short range, but not far especially on day time, it would help you on the initial pointing-weapon-to-enemy step, but further aiming should still be done to hit accurately, it should be more like a <flatbase> bonus instead of bonus per aim level.
Also you just can't see a red dot on naked eye at 200m on day time!
even if you can see it, still there's no indication that's where the bullet is gonna hit on long range, as elevation/bullet drop is the hardest bit on long range shooting.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Overall suggestion:
Long term (what I can't do by editing .ini)
A) The punishment of large mag scope on short range should only be extra aim level and elevation judgement.
An average shooter COULD hit a target easily if he's using an 6x scope on 100m, just not efficient(using more AP), he should not be punished by CTH!
But then, a high mag scope, should only reduce the width of the circle, yet punished on the height of the circle (proportional to magnification).
If we take a newbie shooter like ira, giving her a sniper rifle with 12x scope, she could aim at a head sized target at 100m deadly accurate using all her effort(very high AP cost), but the bullet is gonna fly half meter over the target because she does not understand the scope is zeroed at 400m!(very narrow but very tall CTH circle).
If we have an expert sniper, the height of the circle should be as tiny as the width of the circle, but using up lots of AP with this 12x scope (of course still less than Ira), of course he could have hit the 100m target much easier with a 2x or 4x scope, with less AP but same accuracy.
A newbie can hit a 100m chest target way easier with 4x scope than iron sight, it takes longer for him to aim with a 6x but would still be very accurate, and will be very likely to miss the target if given a 12x or 24x scope, only because he has no idea about elevation!
B ) I would suggest on each extra aiming click, the width of the CTH reticle reduce twice as much as the height of it.[/b]
so that shooter can point his/her gun accurately by effort(AP), but not knowing how high/what elevation he should use, unless he has high marksmanship/sniper training, which reduce either base or proportion of the height of the CTH circle.
Say Ira with a sniper rifle with 24x scope shooting 600m, she does not know handling/breath control/trigger control that well to shoot accurately, so even on a calm day on stationary target, she misses the target (large reticle).
While an average shooter, would aim pretty well, (small width of the reticle), but not knowing enough ranging/elevation causing him more likely to miss the shot even on a calm day(large height of CTH circle).
A sniper however, know it all and perform it well, he could further reduce the height of the CTH circle to make it a perfect round shape and most likely be able to hit the stationary target on a calm day.
Saying that, any moving target would reduce CTH by huge amount, it's difficult for even the best sniper to hit a running target at 600m.
CTH of running target should be dropped by 50% for running target for an average shooter on 200m range, the further the worse.
Movement correction should also be a marksmen/sniper specific training.
C)Lasers should give a flatbase (say 50) or percentbase CTH bonus from 0m, then linearly drop down till it reach its effective range. (Say 50m to 100m day time depending on type of laser, 100-200m night time)
it should not help CTH per aim click much, maybe set it to 0.
This setting allows you to point your pistol to enemy's head at point blank range without aiming, but it only helps you to point you gun at general direction a bit down 50m, if you want to guarantee the hit, you still need to aim.
You could not easily see a laser dot down 100m day time with naked eye.
you might be able to see it with 4x scope but why then you need the laser to aim?
You might still be able to tell a super powerful laser dot down 300m with a powerful scope at night, but that's not where the bullet is gonna hit!.
Those laser pointer with super long night range (like AN/PEQ-2) are more for target indication rather than for shooting when it's used on very long distance. They are very handy as a IR torch too, don't know whether we can simulate that? say nightvision range bonus only when you are wearing a NVG.
Short term (what I can do and have done by editing .ini)
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 50
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5
reasons are an average shooter should be only comfortable shooting a chest target at 50m with iron sight, 100m shooting requires a good marksmanship. then it make sense for scopes too!
e.g.an ACOG 4x32 would be optimal at 200m, and not being punished at 100m, just like in real life!
min to optimal range becomes:
1x: 0-50m
2x: 50-100m
4x: 100-200m
7x: 175m-350m
10x: 250m-500m
I still use AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = -4 as there's not way to simulated poor elevation judgment yet.
This setting also reduce the effectiveness of the laser so a good shooter no longer require a great laser pointer to shoot accurately (which is weird to see laser being more handy than 4x scope at 200m for a good shooter).
of course this reduction in normal shooting distance would reduce general CTH
so we have to find a good max aperture,
I use DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE = 6 to 7 for now, which seems quite good.
(but hey why would my bullet fly 12 deg off target as originally setting, even if I'm the shittest shooter?)
Now A good shooter can still have realistic CTH with a red dot sight on 100-150m.
but a good scope becomes essential on longer range, EVEN if you have laser pointer...
and you no longer need a laser pointer to shoot accurately.
I raised VERTICAL_BIAS = 1 as I don't see the point for this.
I set RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8 and GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 9.8(see the joke?  )
just my personal preference, this emphasize the importance of bullet drop management on near extreme range, and a more parabolic drop.
and with this, finally we can change pistol range setting to real world numbers(why 130m pistol range in game! you must be kidding!)
I increased Base and Aim value of one handed and two guns by a lot, as in real life pistols are much harder to shoot than stocked weapons! but in the game pistols feel like the king of the world at CQC (they are not! they say pistols are only there to help you to get to your rifle )
MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE was also increased by a lot as reasoned above.
There are other minor changes too but its all more personal preference than with proper logic.
Hope this helps those like to try NCTH but felt lots of pain.
I would love to change some of the NCTH formula if someone point me the right direction?
Regards
Falconroid
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