Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
OCTH vs NCTH[message #332442] Mon, 12 May 2014 06:37 Go to next message
Azure_Repeater

 
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Registered:March 2014
Location: Philippines
Which Chance to Hit system is better? OCTH or NCTH? What are your opinions? I seemed to like OCTH better; I got annoyed because my weapons can't hit the enemy in NCTH that easily.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332448] Mon, 12 May 2014 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2111
Registered:May 2009
Repeater1947
I got annoyed because my weapons can't hit the enemy in NCTH that easily.

That is exactly the reason why I like NCTH better because I got annoyed how easy it is to hit things with OCTH. Very Happy
NCTH feels much more realistic. We are not on a shooting range here, we are in a fight, the target is moving unpredictably (although we tend to forget that because it's a turn based game...), our own position is far from perfect, we are no elite soldiers and nobody except for expert snipers can score 60+ percent hit rates under those conditions. For most combatants a hit rate of 25 percent is already much.

The problem I see is that players used to know OCTH and some expect the game to be that easy forever.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332449] Mon, 12 May 2014 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Azure_Repeater

 
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Registered:March 2014
Location: Philippines
Hmm. Based on my experience, hitting enemies with NCTH is pretty damn tough. Even a sniper rifle would have a pretty damn hard time to hit targets with NCTH. Rooftop sniping seems tough, too. Or, maybe it's just that the last time I played NCTH was in r4870? And was NCTH more accurate in the latest unstable builds? Razz

[Updated on: Mon, 12 May 2014 13:17] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332451] Mon, 12 May 2014 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
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NCTH isn't realistic it was done by a guy who admitted that he never was really able to shoot.

perhaps other nonshooters made it even ????
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332452] Mon, 12 May 2014 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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Repeater1947
Or, maybe it's just that the last time I played NCTH was in r4870? And was NCTH more accurate in the latest unstable builds? Razz

Oh yes! There have been lots of changes from 4870 to now.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332453] Mon, 12 May 2014 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Azure_Repeater

 
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Hehe, since it's now more balanced in the latest builds, I should proably try NCTH soon. Very Happy
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332454] Mon, 12 May 2014 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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There will be even more changes and improvements once Sevenfm's changes have been implemented in the standard trunk.

http://www.bears-pit.com/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/332214/Some_Experimental_Visual_Enhan.html#Post332214

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332456] Mon, 12 May 2014 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
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I started enjoying NCTH a whole lot more than OCTH once I started modding it to my hearts content. It's surprisingly flexible and can be shaped to handle multiple playstyles. The settings can be a bit tricky at first but you'll love it once you get the hang of things.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332461] Mon, 12 May 2014 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex_SPB

 
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Registered:February 2008
Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
silversurfer
For most combatants a hit rate of 25 percent is already much.

It is more than 10 times better than the reported actual hit rate
Gorro der Gr

[Updated on: Mon, 12 May 2014 20:38] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332462] Mon, 12 May 2014 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
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@Alex_SPB There are no changes of NCTH mechanics in current patch for main trunk, only optional visual cursor improvements.

@Repeater1947 The main difference between NCTH and OCTH, as I see it, is that OCTH is based on probablity calculation, and NCTH is based on shot simulation.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332464] Mon, 12 May 2014 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex_SPB

 
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Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
Sevenfm
@Alex_SPB There are no changes of NCTH mechanics in current patch for main trunk, only optional visual cursor improvements.


Sorry, have read the Experimental Visual Enhancements thread, adjusted my comment accordingly.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332472] Mon, 12 May 2014 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rummtata

 
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Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
I prefer NCTH because, as Seven has pointed out, it is less "gamey" and more "simulation". Ultimately, of course, we do not want a "realistic" simulation because that would only lead to the player being blown to pieces (a dozen mercs vs. a whole country? good luck with that).

What we expect is a coherent, reasonable system as close to the rules of physical nature as possible without making the game unplayable, because we accept the premise that what happens in a game is unlikely or even impossible as a whole, but we generally reject logical inconsistencies or severe violations of laws of nature without a context explaining why we should forgive such irregularities. We are, however, mostly willing to forgive exaggerations, as long as the tendency is correct and the overall structure of explanations and reasons is not damaged.

Most important: The same rules must apply to all characters in the game, whether they are controlled by the program or the player. That is why I always try to deactivate features like the "magical damage resistance" for elite militia & soldiers. If they are supposed to be better protected, they must have better equipment or better skills (to use cover, in this case).

Same with CTH: I don't want to hit better than the enemy unless it is through advanced tactics, better equipment, or another coherent ingame-explanation is given. If you have the choice of a) changing a contingent parameter (money, tech, training) or b) bend the rules of nature, this should be no choice at all ^^
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332496] Tue, 13 May 2014 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Still prefer OCTH mainly as NCTH have screwed AI CTH (not sure if Silversurfer in meantime fix that),
and game pace is slower,
and hate introduced big crosshair Very Happy
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332499] Tue, 13 May 2014 01:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Azure_Repeater

 
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Registered:March 2014
Location: Philippines
Hmm. Still wondering whether or not to play NCTH.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332500] Tue, 13 May 2014 01:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
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rummtata
I prefer NCTH because, as Seven has pointed out, it is less "gamey" and more "simulation"

nonsense it is a gamey simulation of being unable to shoot

IF
You are able
400 m G3 with iron sights the guy running, You prone or "resting"

THEN
1 bullet fire and forget NO ammo vaste

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2014 02:03] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332501] Tue, 13 May 2014 02:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Azure_Repeater

 
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Ah, Gorro, you prefer OCTH?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332502] Tue, 13 May 2014 02:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
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Yes since I'm able to shoot (Scharfsch
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332504] Tue, 13 May 2014 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jasmith

 
Messages:32
Registered:January 2013
Location: US
You can get pretty similar performance with NCTH too, you just have to use the proper mercs. I like the increased number of variables, but I've only ever had problems connecting when using non-specialized mercs at range. Without a weapons trait and quite a bit of marksmanship, I would expect your average non-combat-origin merc to only make easy shots. OCTH just feels too simplistic. The big NCTH crosshair is there for a reason, and once you aim it should shrink right down, and the AI can still be pretty effective until you get long-range scopes, which is always true. Plus, you can tweak NCTH however you want.

Then again, I don't know how well the NCTH in the trunk is balanced these days. Try one of the specialized mods AFS, or try AIMNAS, since it offers OCTH and is adding NCTH support. That should give you a better feel for what the system is capable of without having to figure out all of the settings and options for yourself.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332509] Tue, 13 May 2014 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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Registered:May 2009
Kriplo
Still prefer OCTH mainly as NCTH have screwed AI CTH (not sure if Silversurfer in meantime fix that),

I hope that I fixed AI willingness to fire. Last time I tested it was working well and AI could hit targets. Of course not as well as my mercs Wink but that was to be expected. Fights between militia and soldiers were fun to watch.

@Gorro
Snipers can have high hit rates with NCTH even with stock 1.13 data. Of course they need a proper weapon and not some peashooter.
But anybody telling me that a grunt can take a G3 with iron sights and reliably hit a moving target at 400m with 1 bullet is just pulling my leg.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332510] Tue, 13 May 2014 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
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Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
Sometimes AI is passive even with NCTH (stock exe and settings).
This happens when you have rifle and enemy has only pistol. (they just fear to get closer and do not rush at you)
They just step forward, then step back, and do not even try to cover.

It happens not very often though, and usually they have comrades that will try to flank you and shoot from behind while you are busy watching stupid moves Smile


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332511] Tue, 13 May 2014 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
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Location: People riding polar bears...
I usually turn up MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to at least allow enemies to lob off a few pot shots if they feel like it.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332517] Tue, 13 May 2014 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
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Maybe MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER needs some randomness.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332520] Tue, 13 May 2014 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rummtata

 
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Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
I remember enemies being very unwilling to attack from the stable build, too, but that's some time ago by now. My only recent experience is with the current SCI unstable builds and here the AI is pretty aggressive. Unless I make them cower in fear or steal their APs/energy, soldiers keep firing at my positions while others go flanking, and they also dare closing into melee range when that is their best bet to hurt me.

NCTH makes it look awesome when zombies raise in the middle of the enemy ranks: you hear and see them firing frantically at their undead comrades, but often miss and get zombified themselves. With OCTH zombies wouldn't stand much of a chance to wreak havoc Wink

@Gorro: I suppose it can be detrimental to have actual experience with the content depicted in games (or moves/literature) because it's hard to supress the need to say "that's completely unrealistic" or "idiotic". Just think about what fantasy characters always do with their swords; they'd be dead in a heartbeat in an actual combat situation =P
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332521] Tue, 13 May 2014 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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Slax
I usually turn up MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to at least allow enemies to lob off a few pot shots if they feel like it.

Yes, MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER has already been increased in stock 1.13 compared to the old default which helped a lot. For example a handgun that has 13 tiles range, has 18 for decision making and so on. On large maps the items and/or modifiers need to be adjusted anyway.

Gambigobilla
Maybe MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER needs some randomness.

Interesting idea. I would say that the amount of randomness should be somehow related to the guns range and the multiplier.
But I'm not sure if this would cause more trouble than good. There are already some modifiers that influence willingness to attack, the soldiers attitude for example. These modifiers cannot be seen by the player and already make combat behaviour somewhat unpredictable.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332523] Tue, 13 May 2014 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
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Location: People riding polar bears...
Make it intelligent, based on enemy stats. We have a lot of those these days, no? Razz
Admins taking stupid shots, wasting ammo.
Redshirts knowing how and when to syppress.
Elites moving around to get effective shots.

Experience level and marksmanship coming into play when deciding actions. Leaders improving overall wisdom and effectiveness.

Guess I stumbled into AI territory...

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332525] Tue, 13 May 2014 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lepidosteus

 
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Registered:November 2007
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Slax

Guess I stumbled into AI territory...


And when you gaze long into the AI the AI also gazes into you.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332531] Tue, 13 May 2014 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
veedotja2

 
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Registered:April 2012
Location: New York
NCTH with recent builds.

With either hit system I think what you are looking for is to have an idea of your hit likelihood before you pull the trigger. Both systems handle this differently. There is nothing worse than the engine & GUI implying you have a 50/50 chance and then missing all your shots, or the GUI indicating that you a 10% chance and you then hit with a whole clip in a burst. This destroys immersion and creates a scenario where you donot have any way to gauge the worth of your actions.

OCTH uses a bar, 0-100%. This is simpler and gets the job done.

NCTH give you a "hit oval," which intuitively provides this same information.

The game itself sometimes has a buggy cover system, where it seems that a "hit" can still strike cover. No helping this.

In other ways the systems are similar, the aim click potential and so on.

Early NCTH values when the system was introduced were pretty awful and my intuition of pistol vs rifles and autofire was thrown off. Now that NCTH has been around for a bit, this has been ameliorated.

Playing AIMNAS with NCTH I have no reservations now about playing NCTH all the time, so I recommend NCTH.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332532] Tue, 13 May 2014 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
veedotja2

 
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Location: New York
Slax
Admins taking stupid shots, wasting ammo.


I have a hard time determining sometimes if the shot was low-percentage or that the guy just missed a bunch of times from bad luck.

And sometimes they take low-percentage shots, as do I. Panic fire?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332559] Wed, 14 May 2014 00:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
I give you, The People Know How To Shoot mini-mod. Save as and replace appropriate CTHConstants.ini

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332562] Wed, 14 May 2014 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rummtata

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
Hey Slax, care to say a few words about the changes you've made? Wink
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332564] Wed, 14 May 2014 00:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
You'll have to look that up yourself. That's the point! Learn to mod. Very Happy

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332566] Wed, 14 May 2014 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rummtata

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
You are employing psychology against me! Begone, fiend! :saint:
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332567] Wed, 14 May 2014 01:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rummtata

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
Ok, you got me. Hmm, you seem to have changed a lot. Maybe shooting is too easy now? I'll give it a try! Do I need to start a new campaign for the changes too take effect or can I just swap the files and load a savegame?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332568] Wed, 14 May 2014 01:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
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Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
3iekrVuLoVI[/video]
9:55

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332581] Wed, 14 May 2014 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M16AMachinegun

 
Messages:308
Registered:September 2013
@ slax

lol no recoil



I see you left Gravity Coefficient at 4. Why is that? I disagree, I think it should be higher. I set it to 9.8 since i'm pretty sure that's the average downward pull towards earth, be it at sea level or something. I remember using that number in high school physics class. I see your range modifier's at 3; i usually have it at half that. Very interesting Smile

You've increased Scope_effectiveness_multiplier. how does that change things for you?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332585] Wed, 14 May 2014 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
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Location: People riding polar bears...
It's not very balanced so I've been tweaking it depending on what I'm playing. AFS, AIMNAS, SDO...
A constant work in progress. That setup gave a good feeling with most weapons. Scope too close penalty is probably too high but I dunno.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332586] Wed, 14 May 2014 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
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rummtata
Ok, you got me. Hmm, you seem to have changed a lot. Maybe shooting is too easy now? I'll give it a try! Do I need to start a new campaign for the changes too take effect or can I just swap the files and load a savegame?

Just overwrite and go if you're on a NCTH campaign.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332595] Wed, 14 May 2014 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Azure_Repeater

 
Messages:152
Registered:March 2014
Location: Philippines
Wait... I didn't know that AIMNAS has a more balanced NCTH. Surprised
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332607] Wed, 14 May 2014 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
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Repeater1947
Wait... I didn't know that AIMNAS has a more balanced NCTH. Surprised

That's because Smeagol is the man! :cheerleader: :cheerleader:
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #332625] Wed, 14 May 2014 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
rummtata

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
Well Slax, I've tried your CTH settings, and I think it's too much like OCTH for my taste. About 75% of all shots connect, even with handguns from pretty far away. But thanks for sharing. Maybe I'll have to try my own custom settings... though all these options seem a bit daunting :scary:
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