Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333896] Fri, 27 June 2014 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ferix
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012
Repeater1947
Which Chance to Hit system is better?
The question is not entirely correct.
What does it mean "better"?
I personally hate NCTH and use OCTH. But I think that NCTH has potential.

Let's see, what we got.
OCTH is very simple and friendly. It provides wonderful feedback.
When you take more advanced weapon and install more advanced attachments you CTH go up. And you hit enemies more easily. You feel it. You see how CTH bar fills.

Now NTCH. I do not understand it. At all.
I read the wiki, forum threads but still I miss enemy standing in front of me. I got good gun, all attachments and enemy in range. ш spent all AP to aim. But I miss. Why? NCTH decided so...
In OCTH when you miss, you miss. Bullet flies past, sometimes hit cover or other soldier. But in NCTH sometimes all burst falls to the ground at the feet of the enemy. Looks like you're shooting a bow and pulled the bowstring not strong enough.

silversurfer
NCTH feels much more realistic.

John A Smith
You can get pretty similar performance with NCTH too, you just have to use the proper mercs.
No. No. And No.
Have you ever fired a gun?
NCTH is not realistic at all. I do not know what she was trying to simulate, but not exactly the flight of bullets fired from a weapon.

A simple example - Laser sight. It draws red dot on the spot where the bullet should hit. It does not give any bonuses, it guarantees that you will hit the point that you see with 100% probability. No difference soldiers you or a student who has taken the first weapons, in both cases сhance that you will hit the red dot exactly 100% Well. in case of student chance may be lower, because he does not know how to hold a gun. But we play professional mercenaries, who know how to shot.
Also. in case of laser sight it draw dot at a distance of approximately 300 meters. This is effective range of most assault rifles.

Now let's talk about aiming. What is it? When you aim better you spend more AP. In terms of turn based game AP = time. So you spend more time to...
As mentioned above, game freeze during your turn, but enemies still in move. So is it possible to hit moving target? The answer is - Yes. All you need is time. Of course hit a running goal is very difficult task, but still possible. And even in the case of a miss, if you spent some time on aiming bullet will fly in front of him or behind him. But it definitely should not fall to the ground before his feet.

NCTH has a lot of interesting features. But at the moment its implementation causing me to tears.
Wiki says that developers trying to do something with "headshot game". And we got NCTH as result. They won this battle. But at what cost? Now difficult to hit not just the head, but even the body of standing enemy. For me, the difference between the two systems looks so:
OCTH=bonus-penalty=X
NCTH=bonus-penalty=RND(100)
Theoretically, circle in NCTH crosshair should show bullets hit area. But it does not give such feedback as CTH bar in OCTH. Sometimesit this circle so big and the bullet passes so far from the target that not even believe that it was aimed shot.
But if it was the only way to overcome headshot game? I don't think so.
People shot in the head, not because it was easy. They did it because it was the most effective way to kill the enemy. And the price for every headshot was 90% AP.

And now let me introduce NightOps mod.
This mod uses its own engine with modified OCTH system. Probably some of you have already played it, if not then I recommend to play. The author took the original decision to keep a balance. Parameters of all weapons are almost identical, except for specific models. Once you took a gun in Drassen you can keep it till Meduna. AI are very dangerous. You can kill one of them in head, but next turn someone kill you. So the best tactic s to stay unseen. This means only silenced weapon and constant movement.
Сant say that the mod does not encourage headshots. Rather, it teaches to use them when appropriate. Excessive ease of the OCTH here smoothed by other gameplay elements preventing headshot abuse.

I think the creation of a completely new system was unnecessary. The old system is quite suitable. Moreover, it can be expanded with the use of some NCTH elements. "Headshot game" become a problem not because of its simplicity. New attachment system add so many bonuses, so every fully attached gun become imbalanced. And this is the biggest problem of whole project 1.13. Different people write different pieces of mods. Then they are combined into a single unit but come into conflict with each other. Perhaps you've noticed that if you disable NCTH, all weapon and armor lost all parameters linked to it. But what if someone has adapted them to the old system? Would then chance to hit head across the map as high?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333897] Fri, 27 June 2014 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
Ferix
Most of your statements will be true if you just replace NCTH with OCTH and "CTH bar" with "NCTH aperture size" Smile
Both systems are stupid if you compare them to RL shooting, as it's a game, and you cannot simulate shooting with computer mouse Smile
I have a (relatively small) RL shooting experience, and I can say that no computer simulation can be made close to it =)
Also, in RL bullets do not flight in straight lines (as laser rays), do you now that?

NCTH is much more flexible and scalable system, you can get completely different feeling with different settings.
And OCTH is not "simple and friendly", it uses very complex and not obvious calculations.

If you want the NCTH to feel more like OCTH, just use proper settings (not default) and get proper guns with attachments.
For example, in this video you can see how the shooting feels with custom ini settings and good gun attachments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP44DVaiQJo[/video]
youtube link

Unfortunately, you cannot simply add NCTH elements to the OCTH system, because they are made in completely different ways:
- OCTH calculates your CTH, than (if you win) fires at the center of the target. If you fail, it fires somewhere else.
- NCTH calculates your aperture size, then fires at random point within that aperture.

For example, NCTH is capable to actually move your shooting point if your target is moving (and you fail to compensate that) - you can never simulate this in OCTH because of it's nature.
This makes the following effect - you cannot just snipe the fast moving enemy, you have to suppress him first with autofire weapons.
Another good (and configurable) option is bullet deviation - set it higher, and you will not be able to snipe the enemy with pistol at 2x it's effective range even with perfect shooter and all lasers attached.

Also, autofire in OCTH is simply stupid - you fire bullets at random directions the same way as it was in Laser Squad on ZX Spectrum 20 years ago =)
NCTH tries to simulate recoil and how shooter compensates it.

As for other mods - it's just the matter of personal preference - some players still prefer vanilla, for example.
I have played NO mod and many others, and for me the 1.13 in 2014 version with adjusted NCTH gives most fun from tactical battles.

But still OCTH is useful and playable for those who likes it - that's what 1.13 is good at - everyone can play it in it's own way.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333898] Fri, 27 June 2014 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RoWa21

 
Messages:2046
Registered:October 2005
Location: Austria
@Sevenfm: Nice zombie shooting Smile

What about uploading your modified NCTH-INI together with a short readme.txt what you have adjusted (compared to default 1.13 NCTH INI) and how that affects the gameplay. Just put the 2 files it in a ZIP-Package.

I am thinking about making a collection of different NCTH setting and put them together in SVN for public download.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333899] Fri, 27 June 2014 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ferix
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012
Sevenfm
Both systems are stupid if you compare them to RL shooting, as it's a game, and you cannot simulate shooting with computer mouse Smile
Agree. But I never thought of JA as a shooting simulator. I just give the orders to professional mercenaries, and they perform them as they can.
In my opinion my merc calculates his chances and tells me CTH. He says, "yes, I certainly hit this target". Or "I'm not sure, I think my chances are 50/50". And I, as the commander must decide to let him shoot, or change position. In NCTH I must personally calculate CTH based on the radius of the circle.
Now go to the video.
8:41 Barry shoot burst. Enemy is very close and circle is small. Miss all 3 shots.
Next Burst, circle a bit bigger(?). All 3 bullet hit target.
How could he miss from that distance? What calculations led to it?
As you saidSevenfm
in RL bullets do not flight in straight lines (as laser rays), do you now that?

Yes, I know that. That's why I mentioned the effective range. Laser sight range =~300m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
Effective firing range 550 meters (point target)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74
Effective firing range 625m

You can adjust your sight to shoot beyond this range. Of course for assault rifles use large tolerances for accuracy than for sniper rifles. But hit into the body with a 300 m can any of them. It's not easy, but for a soldier with 100 marksmanship and good gun more than possible.
Sevenfm
And OCTH is not "simple and friendly", it uses very complex and not obvious calculations.
It give me correct CTH. That's all I need to make decision.
Sevenfm
If you want the NCTH to feel more like OCTH, just use proper settings (not default) and get proper guns with attachments.
I need not old ballistic. I need an old crosshair showing the minimum information I required.
Sevenfm
Unfortunately, you cannot simply add NCTH elements to the OCTH system, because they are made in completely different ways:
- OCTH calculates your CTH, than (if you win) fires at the center of the target. If you fail, it fires somewhere else.
- NCTH calculates your aperture size, then fires at random point within that aperture.
Ok, OCTH calculate chance. But how? It use some values, bonuses and penalties. Why not just extend the range of these values​​?
For example bullet deviation. In NCTH system this is some kind of magic effect. Soldier who shoots a gun a few months can not predict the behavior of the bullet? I think he can. If he knows that the weapon which he holds in his hands is not very accurate, we can roughly predict the chance to hit the target. Each weapon has a built-modifier to accuracy, positive or negative. Which increases with distance. At close range, you can hit the target with any weapon with a CTH close to 100%. But make a headshot with a shotgun at 500 m is almost impossible.
Sevenfm
For example, NCTH is capable to actually move your shooting point if your target is moving (and you fail to compensate that) - you can never simulate this in OCTH because of it's nature.
Why not?
Everything can be represented as bonus/penalty. As I say above - fires merc, not me. If he skilled enough, he can shoot even running target. Of course less likely than standing. Just one more penalty in the formula.
Sevenfm
Also, autofire in OCTH is simply stupid - you fire bullets at random directions the same way as it was in Laser Squad on ZX Spectrum 20 years ago =)
NCTH tries to simulate recoil and how shooter compensates it.
This is one of features I wish to move to OCTH. Theoretically, you can aim only the first bullet. Each subsequent will deviate a bit up and right/left.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333901] Fri, 27 June 2014 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
Quote:
8:41 Barry shoot burst. Enemy is very close and circle is small. Miss all 3 shots.
Next Burst, circle a bit bigger(?). All 3 bullet hit target.
How could he miss from that distance? What calculations led to it?

The same for OCTH - one shot misses, the next one hits. So what is the difference? It's just randomness.
The statement "I can hit reliably from 400m with my AK/G3/AR" is a common mistake - it's not shooting-range - the enemy is moving, the bullets are flying, the hands are shaking =)
You can think of the circle size as approximate chance to hit - if it's comparable to the body width, you have a roughly 50% CTH, if it's green and small - the CTH is high.
In my games, shooting at the body at close range with small green aperture is almost always successfull. (though it's not realistic - see well known police and other real shootings at ranges 5-10 meters)
Also, having 50% OCTH does not mean that one of the two shots will hit - you still can miss 3-4 times in a row.
"What calculations led to it?" Nobody knows. Just randomness.
Quote:
Ok, OCTH calculate chance. But how? It use some values, bonuses and penalties. Why not just extend the range of these values

You will see the problem if you look at the code. As I said, the OCTH calculation is by no means simple, and adding several new modifiers can break the whole balance.
This was one of the reasons why Headrock made NCTH - it's (relatively) easily configurable and more or less predictable.
Quote:
That's why I mentioned the effective range. Laser sight range =~300m

I think that the "effective range" is not correct term if you speak of reliably hitting targets in combat situation.
Lasers are fully effective only in the nighttime.
Also, the difference between straight laser line and bullet trajectory may be 20-30 centimeters.
See ballistic charts:
http://i.imgur.com/1T3vmz3.png
http://i.imgur.com/CMRPQyc.png

Anyway, using one or another system is the matter of personal preference - you like OCTH, you use it, this system is fully supported in all builds.
If someone wants to play NCTH, he has to understand this system and learn some tricks (like shooting bursts aiming at the legs so that second-third bullets hit torso-head due to vertical recoil or using short bursts to compensate target movement)
If you think you can improve OCTH, keeping it simple and predictable - it would be very good and I would definitely want to try playing with that improved system.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333903] Fri, 27 June 2014 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
@RoWa21
Good idea with NCTH settings collection!
I can upload here my current settings with description, but it's not completely finished yet - I'm not happy with how autofire/recoil works so will probably make some adjustments and test them in my next game.
I also use custom weapons.xml file with changed handling values - this file is based on Strohmann's NCTH Overhaul mod, as stock 1.13 handling values are not balanced - for example, too low handling values for pistols can make them too accurate compared to rifles.
(This can probably be compensated with item_settings.ini - add handling for certain gun types)


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333904] Fri, 27 June 2014 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ferix
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012
Sevenfm
The statement "I can hit reliably from 400m with my AK/G3/AR" is a common mistake - it's not shooting-range - the enemy is moving, the bullets are flying, the hands are shaking =)
Neither I nor you can hit a target with an assault rifle at a distance of 300 meters. But surely there are people capable to do it.
Saying shooting-range you mean "ideal conditions". I can provide such conditions to my men. Merc with high marksmanship sneaking up on the enemy. What was the distance between Barry and zombies in the video? 4 or 5 tiles? It is less than 100 meters. Now merc trying to shoot down standing still unalerted enemy. Shooting at stationary targets, almost like in shooting-range. In this condition OCTH system looks more realistic. In NCTH your chance to miss still very high.
Yes, I'm talking about default settings. But 99% of players use only this settings.
Sevenfm
If you think you can improve OCTH, keeping it simple and predictable - it would be very good and I would definitely want to try playing with that improved system.

Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer. But I know something about guns. And I think that both systems could be improved. Because now both do not looks realistic.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333916] Sat, 28 June 2014 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2111
Registered:May 2009
Sevenfm

I also use custom weapons.xml file with changed handling values - this file is based on Strohmann's NCTH Overhaul mod, as stock 1.13 handling values are not balanced - for example, too low handling values for pistols can make them too accurate compared to rifles.
(This can probably be compensated with item_settings.ini - add handling for certain gun types)

Item_Settings.ini had handling modifiers for different gun types for a long time now. I know because I implemented them on request. Wink


Ferix

Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer. But I know something about guns. And I think that both systems could be improved. Because now both do not looks realistic.

Then put your knowledge into some formulas and a programmer will see if he can make use of them but other than that you can only alter the myriad of parameters and adjust them to your liking.

There have been many improvements and bugfixes to NCTH in the past. No offense but I'm starting to get sick of people coming to this forum telling that the system is bad and has to be improved without making any substantial suggestion and without even understanding how it works first. Let the programmers do all the work so we can complain afterwards that we don't like what they did... :angry:

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333925] Sat, 28 June 2014 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ferix
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012
silversurfer
Then put your knowledge into some formulas and a programmer will see if he can make use of them but other than that you can only alter the myriad of parameters and adjust them to your liking.
Maybe later. Now I do not have the exact formula, just a theory as it should work. For my system we have to change some characteristics of the weapons and attachments. Right now I don't have time for coding-testing cycle. But maybe one day I'll create my own mod with my vision Smile
silversurfer
There have been many improvements and bugfixes to NCTH in the past. No offense but I'm starting to get sick of people coming to this forum telling that the system is bad and has to be improved without making any substantial suggestion and without even understanding how it works first. Let the programmers do all the work so we can complain afterwards that we don't like what they did... :angry:
You like NCTH? I dont mind.
I do not really understand how it works. It's true. But I understand that it works not as IRL. It have its advantages and disadvantages. You can love it or not. But I do not believe that it is more realistic or definitely better, then old system. It's just different.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333934] Sun, 29 June 2014 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tyxe

 
Messages:74
Registered:May 2012
Location: France
I like much better NCtH, especially NCtH of the unstable build.
The implementation of the iron sight bonus parameter was a great addition (thks silversurfer).
It did not prevent me to tweak NCtH parameters further but even the current default unstable build parameters are ok now.

The main issues for the future new stable release would be to increase default base sight range to 15 or 16 (that make the AI much better and overall gameplay more interesting) and above all hugely decrease all the scopes bonus (both the base vision bonus and the SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER they provide, currently scopes' values are utterly broken IMHO and i'm quite surprised few people talked about it, it was obvious problem number 1 for me before i tweak it).
As a plus some weapons stats should be also be slightly modified to fit more with the NCtH system.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333935] Sun, 29 June 2014 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
Tyxe
Agree on base sight range, I usually set it to 18-20 and also remove vision bonuses from scopes, so I have to use spotter with binocs for recon.
What are your suggestions on scope effectiveness changing?
I find them good enough and well balanced with NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200 and SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.3, I also set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = -2.0 so that scopes are not completely useless on close distance.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333937] Sun, 29 June 2014 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tyxe

 
Messages:74
Registered:May 2012
Location: France
I have tried quite extensively various base sight vision.
I like the 18-20 values too, it makes the AI even better but the vanilla maps design did not support it well. Something is lost IMHO.
I understand you like better these values though, it has obvious advantages but it changes too much the gameplay for my taste. If the maps were bigger (like in AINMAS i think ? never tried it) i guess it would be very enjoyable.

Here are the NCtH parameters that i have changed :
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 100 (easy to make calculation, 200 does not add a lot)
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 4.0 (i don't want to OP the pistols and make weapons' range parameters at least a bit important in NCtH)
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0 (easy to calculate scope min range and very suitable, see scopes XML change)
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER = 1.0
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM = 100 (because scopes XML change i don't need that option, i understand it was needed before because scopes were so much overpowered)
Base NCtH :
BASE_EXP = 2.8
BASE_MARKS = 1.3
BASE_WIS = 0.6 (wisdom is already an awesome stat)
BASE_DEX = 1.3
NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE = 100 (same as NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE, useful because scopes much weaker, added bonus : make iron sight better and currently pitiful machine pistol/SMG a bit less so)
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.5 (it doesn't need to be increased further, mybe even decreased a little bit, especially since i have increased base range of all pistols by 3 tiles, base sight vision is the most important factor for the AI )
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE

After many tries between vanilla 13 and up to 20 base sight range, I currently use a base sight vision 16 but it really is the upper limit with vanilla maps IMO, i previously used 15 and consider it the best value for a vanilla feeling (and may very well switch back to it).

Now the most important the scope XML change :
Scope Mag factor of 2x/4x and PSO1/7x/10x and PSO3 scopes have respectively become 1.6/1.8/2/2.5 (i hesitate with 1.8/2/2.2/2.6 values, i have tested these two sets of values but i'm still undecided)
Much harder to hit now but the increased NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE and NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE help a bit here.
Min range for scopes with these parameters became now : 2x:16 4x:18 7x:20 10:25

I kept vision bonuses for scope but greatly decreased them to respectively 5% for scope 2x/10%/15% and up to 20% for the x10 and PSO3.

I removed the crazy,sneaky and i bet unnoticed by some people 10% vision base vision bonus provided by sunglasses in normal day light condition and decreased its bonus to 5% in bright light condition (instead of 20).

I more or less slightly changed various weapons stats.
Mainly i have increased the ready action point requirement of all of them (great variances but on average 4 for pistols, 6 for revolvers, 8 for machine pistols, 16 for SMG, 20 for AR, etc..), increased all pistols/revolvers range by 3, increase all pistol only aim level by one (but decrease action point requirement by 1 or 2).

I play on expert, latest unstable build (which is always very stable IMO).
The final result with these changes is that you have a vanilla felling playing the game but where the headshot game have disappeared and the gameplay improved (but his "nature" not modified hugely) IMHO.




Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333955] Mon, 30 June 2014 06:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Griffinhart

 
Messages:12
Registered:June 2014
Quick question - is it possible to swap between O/NCTH in build 6927 6967 without having to start a new game? I remember years ago there was a toggle in the Options menu, but it seems to have been removed.

-- Griffinhart

[Updated on: Mon, 30 June 2014 06:03] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333958] Mon, 30 June 2014 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RoWa21

 
Messages:2046
Registered:October 2005
Location: Austria
Griffinhart
Quick question - is it possible to swap between O/NCTH in build 6927 6967 without having to start a new game? I remember years ago there was a toggle in the Options menu, but it seems to have been removed.

-- Griffinhart


you cannot switch on a running game. that option was removed long time ago.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #333967] Mon, 30 June 2014 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2111
Registered:May 2009
Tyxe

SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER = 1.0
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM = 100 (because scopes XML change i don't need that option, i understand it was needed before because scopes were so much overpowered)

I think you misinterpreted these options. These are NOT intended for altering scope magnification altogether. Well, you can use them for that purpose (as you have done Wink ) but I had something completely different in mind when I implemented them.

The player request was that the ability to use scopes should be related to the shooters skills somehow. Setting SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM = 100 completely removes this functionality. The default 1.13 values already lower scope magnification for most mercs because they don't have perfect stats and most of them do not have the ranger, marksman or sniper trait.

Here is a little overview of that feature:
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/330236/Re:_Cth/INI_Settings_for_new_s#Post330236

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #334346] Sat, 19 July 2014 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tyxe

 
Messages:74
Registered:May 2012
Location: France
Thank for the explanation Silversurfer.
i had already read this thread and understood the intent and the mechanic.
It is a good idea because scopes are so powerful/unbalanced that you don't notice a huge difference between good and bad shooting mercs.
However if you greatly decrease the scopes' effectiveness you will then clearly notice the difference that level/marksmanship make and so did not need to accentuate it while using scope.
Playing with default 1.13 parameters and scope values it is a welcome implementation.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335264] Sat, 30 August 2014 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Burzmali

 
Messages:239
Registered:March 2007
Location: Estonia
One of the features of JA, JA2 and first versions of 1.13 was consistency. I mean: you saw an enemy. You made a save. You shoot - damage 42. You reloaded, you shoot, and the damage was again 42. Not 41, not 17, not a total miss or whatever. Even if you played on for five turn, made a mistake, reloaded the same save and repeated the shot - it was damage 42. That's why I hated the "new system" where after reloading the result was not the same. I do not care what formula is used to calculate the damage. (Decades ago I had some training with AKM, so I know in what situations I have a chance to hit and when I do not - for example through the porthole of a armoured car moving in wilderness.)

Lately I downloaded ver 7297. Seems to me, somebody has now screwed up the old system also and I do not get the same result after reloading. wtf?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335266] Sat, 30 August 2014 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
Revert to 1.12 or learn how to code.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335268] Sat, 30 August 2014 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:796
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
Funny how the fact that random numbers were preseeded is called a "Feature", this was most surely not the case.
Please stop whining about the fact that the game is now really random, savegames are for reloading and for example trying again in a way that makes your mercs not get owned, this does not mean that every little bit has to go exactly the same until the moment you made a wrong move.

Accept the fact you got owned, try again with a new tactic... simple as that!

☆☆M☆☆
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335350] Mon, 01 September 2014 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PirateGuy

Messages:1
Registered:September 2014
Location: IN, USA
NCTH is driving me insane, but I love the reticule/cursor/automatic-fire-icon it uses. Is there any way to use it with OCTH?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335352] Mon, 01 September 2014 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3051
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hi PirateGuy, welcome to the pit!

No.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335353] Mon, 01 September 2014 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
PirateGuy
NCTH is driving me insane, but I love the reticule/cursor/automatic-fire-icon it uses. Is there any way to use it with OCTH?


No, but NCTH is very open for modding. You can make it work fairly close to how OCTH functions.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335354] Mon, 01 September 2014 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter

 
Messages:268
Registered:November 2009
Location: Sweden
Slax
PirateGuy
NCTH is driving me insane, but I love the reticule/cursor/automatic-fire-icon it uses. Is there any way to use it with OCTH?


No, but NCTH is very open for modding. You can make it work fairly close to how OCTH functions.


Really? How?
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335356] Mon, 01 September 2014 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Data-1.13/CTHConstants.ini
Probably another folder if you're playing some other mod.

Do the work, figure it out. It isn't rocket science.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335359] Mon, 01 September 2014 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3051
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Slax
... You can make it work fairly close to how OCTH functions.
:gaga:


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335360] Mon, 01 September 2014 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smeagol

 
Messages:2709
Registered:June 2008
Location: Bremen, Germany
Slax

No, but NCTH is very open for modding. You can make it work fairly close to how OCTH functions.


Share the love... if it is that easy, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in this.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335361] Mon, 01 September 2014 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pyro

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2005
Location: Slovenia
Tried the NCTH in the new stable version, looks like it still screws up the AI (when they have short range weapons they just dick around instead of shooting or advancing).

I tried increasing MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER and MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION, which does seem to help somewhat. Are there any other suggested INI settings which may cause the AI to be a bit less retarded?

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335374] Tue, 02 September 2014 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Flugente
Slax
... You can make it work fairly close to how OCTH functions.
:gaga:

My non-coder eyes see what yours cannot.

smeagol
Slax

No, but NCTH is very open for modding. You can make it work fairly close to how OCTH functions.


Share the love... if it is that easy, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in this.

The love is in doing, not receiving. 1.13 being the modding platform that it is, DO SOME MODDING. Very Happy
Can't make one suit fit everyone anyway.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335376] Tue, 02 September 2014 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3743
Registered:July 2009
Did you seriously just write what I think you wrote?


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335377] Tue, 02 September 2014 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smeagol

 
Messages:2709
Registered:June 2008
Location: Bremen, Germany
Slax

The love is in doing, not receiving. 1.13 being the modding platform that it is, DO SOME MODDING. Very Happy
Can't make one suit fit everyone anyway.


Srsly?


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335378] Tue, 02 September 2014 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Seriously.
Guess I'll need to elaborate. What I'm talking about here is fine-tuning something to suit your own needs and preferences. Don't like how NCTH handles? Mod it. They're just numbers. Possibilities, not limitations.
DepressivesBrot
Did you seriously just write what I think you wrote?

I'm not a mind reader.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335379] Tue, 02 September 2014 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3743
Registered:July 2009
Found a good alternative to the defaults? Share them. Your posts today show everything that's wrong with humanity in a distilled form.
You: "Hey, I got NCTH working in a different, maybe better way than the default settings"
Someone: "Cool, can I take a look?"
You: "Fuck off, start at zero and do it yourself. I'm not giving you shit but here's some bullshit platitudes"


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335380] Tue, 02 September 2014 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1438
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Well sure you can take a look but I don't have anything which directly emulates OCTH. I'm simply noting that modifying NCTH is one of the simplest things you can get into when it comes to 1.13.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335382] Tue, 02 September 2014 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3051
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Altering numbers is easy. But the notion that one can easily modify NCTH to resemble OCTH, (especially if one does not have familiarity with 1.13 modding and NCTH especially, as I assume to be the case here) is laughable.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335387] Tue, 02 September 2014 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
Pyro
The problem is not only with CTH I think, but with the hard-to-find bug that makes enemy think that he has no CTH at all.
You can see it when you are aiming beyond the weapon's range and your merc says "can't hit" quote when he actually CAN and really HITS if you force him to fire.

The mentioned settings in cthconstants.ini help a bit, but not solve the problem completely.
The only one really effective solution is use modified gun progression when enemy start with rifles and shotguns (starting with m1 carbine and such).
This makes early battles more challenging and removes "pistol period".
One good example is altered gun progression in SDO mod.

From my experience, it's possible to make NCTH feel a bit more like CTH by bumping up overall accuracy and tweaking the constants, but stilll these systems are completely different and cannot be compared directly.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 14:15] by Moderator



Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335397] Tue, 02 September 2014 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2111
Registered:May 2009
Sevenfm
Pyro
The problem is not only with CTH I think, but with the hard-to-find bug that makes enemy think that he has no CTH at all.
You can see it when you are aiming beyond the weapon's range and your merc says "can't hit" quote when he actually CAN and really HITS if you force him to fire.

Actually this is not a bug. The game is designed to return 0 CTH if the AI is farther away from the target than weapon range * MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER.
With those pistols that most opponents run around at game start the modified range is just 14 tiles.

Increasing MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to something higher than the default 1.4 helps but it will not make the shooter hit anything. He will just waste ammo or may score a lucky hit.


edit: @Pyro
You shouldn't increase MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION. You should decrease the value if you want the AI to have a better CTH outside gun range.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 19:37] by Moderator


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335400] Tue, 02 September 2014 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
silversurfer
You are right, it's checked in AICalcChanceToHitGun as you described.
But what I cannot understand is why the mercs often say "can't hit" when trying to shoot at distant target with pistol/rifle when they actually CAN, the cth is maybe small like 5% but if I shoot I hit often.
So maybe MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER is only a part of the problem and another part is located somewhere in SoldierToSoldierBodyPartChanceToGetThrough.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335401] Tue, 02 September 2014 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pyro

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2005
Location: Slovenia
Thanks for the answers. But it's still quite silly, in octh they will usually try to advance or at least do something, instead of just derping back and forth 1-3 tiles waiting to be shot. They did seem a bit more effective and advance more when I tweaked the parameters. Making only lucky shots(and suppressing my mercs a bit) is still better than default retard behavior.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 20:46] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335411] Tue, 02 September 2014 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2111
Registered:May 2009
Sevenfm
silversurfer
You are right, it's checked in AICalcChanceToHitGun as you described.
But what I cannot understand is why the mercs often say "can't hit" when trying to shoot at distant target with pistol/rifle when they actually CAN, the cth is maybe small like 5% but if I shoot I hit often.

Don't say this too loud. There are people who claim that you can't hit anything with NCTH... Wink Very Happy

I don't know why mercs say that they can't hit anything when there is a clear line to the target. I never looked into this problem because I never experienced it.

Pyro
Thanks for the answers. But it's still quite silly, in octh they will usually try to advance or at least do something, instead of just derping back and forth 1-3 tiles waiting to be shot. They did seem a bit more effective and advance more when I tweaked the parameters. Making only lucky shots(and suppressing my mercs a bit) is still better than default retard behavior.

In OCTH there was almost always a better CTH value. This was probably the reason why the enemy always did something useful. The problem might be related to the map. I always play on the WF map and there is plenty of cover so soldiers and militia don't hesitate to advance and shoot when in range.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335447] Thu, 04 September 2014 04:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Boge

 
Messages:39
Registered:July 2012
I notice a lot of the items do not affect you as much without NCTH. For instance, the armor doesn't hinder your shot as much. Bipods don't hurt your aim at all when standing or crouch. The accuracy on guns is different. Instead of 85, it might say 15. Pistols aren't 6 and 7 anymore, but 0.

I'm missing the details in the tooltips that NCTH offers.

What can I do to make NCTH a good playing experience? The thing that annoys me the most is when I have a point blank shot and I shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, miss, miss, miss, miss. I can deal with the stupid AI issues.
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