Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335449] Thu, 04 September 2014 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Armor has some big penalties, maybe too big. :whoknows:

Just don't try to use a 10x scope to shoot at someone directly in front of you. That will probably go wrong because of the AIM_TOO_CLOSE penalty. Very Happy

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335450] Thu, 04 September 2014 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1387
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
Boge
It's best to play NCTH with mods - SDO (NCTH Overhaul), AFS, Aimnas.
Experienced players usually tweak cthconstants.ini to make shooting more enjoyable.

Here is an example of my NCTH minimod - tweaked cthconstants.ini and weapons.xml (handling values changed). You can use it or at least test it and see the difference with the stock 1.13. (put it into your game profile)

link

As for my settings:
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 35.0 (the optimal value may be from 15 to 50, though even 35 is a lot)
DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE = 12
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.4

To make scopes more useful at less than optimal range
AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = -2.0

I also increase auto weapons effectiveness
NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE = 100

Increased bullet deviation makes gun range more important - you cannot hit small targets (heads) reliably with a short range pistol, even with a sniper scope on it =)
MAX_BULLET_DEV = 10.0

I also increase movement penalty, because at low values it doesn't affect shooting much
MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE = 4.0


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335471] Thu, 04 September 2014 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boge

 
Messages:39
Registered:July 2012
Thanks. I'll definitely try a couple of these options.

SDO is for an earlier version of 1.13. It's not updated since the stable release. I'm also not sure I'm a fan of the new items. And AR seems to have too much stuff lying around. Every single thing I open has something in it. Too many handouts.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2014 21:56] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335829] Tue, 16 September 2014 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ble210
Messages:6
Registered:September 2014
Location: United States
I have also witnessed a lot of AI problems with the NCTH- they will just run around between cover out of range, never advance and fire, and slowly be picked off. Does this get better when enemies get more advanced weapons? If not, then I will need to restart in OCTH.

I personally love the NCTH system. The only problem I have is the AI behavior; if that is fixed, then I think the NCTH system is far better than the old one.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335840] Wed, 17 September 2014 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:299
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Alternatively, you can try to change this :

NEW_AI_TACTICAL = FALSE

(from TRUE to FALSE), in Ja2_Options.INI. This parameter has some interesting improvements, but introduces some strange behaviors. I now play on FALSE and am having a better (personal) experience.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335845] Wed, 17 September 2014 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ble210
Messages:6
Registered:September 2014
Location: United States
I'll try to change that and see. I really like the NCTH system and think it is a huge improvement, but due to the AI's inability to handle it properly, I'll switch to the OCTH system until it can.

Some examples of how the AI behaves in NCTH system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kirWU3fSO-o (at 38:25)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9y3oKiGx9Y

[Updated on: Wed, 17 September 2014 03:43] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #335853] Wed, 17 September 2014 10:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Those videos look like a very old game version. The targeting cursor hasn't been that thick for 2? years now. If you want to try NCTH use at least a current version of the game (2014 stable or the current unstable).

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #336755] Fri, 17 October 2014 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
I tried to play NCTH but it drives me insane for the following reasons:
- it is unbalancing in the context of the game. You miss a lot while enemies just charge at you constantly. And since there can be like 30 enemies on a map you can be swarmed with these zerlings quickly if you miss a lot. IRL you would pop charging enemies unless they are moving smart.
- Misses at point blank range. I can shoot a real 9mm pistol at 10m very easily, hitting all 10s. At shooting range. Combat is definately not a shooting range, but i'm not not a mercenary with 15 years of service.
- with OCH you feel the difference between aimed and non-aimed shot. With the NCTH the difference is much less prominent in terms of the feeling. I'm standing 3 meters away, make 2 aimed shots with a guy with 90 marksmanship and i miss. I'ts like omfg, wtf?!

Probably NCTH is more realistic in its nature, but it just doesn't feel right game-wise.

It's just IMHO.

I'm not blaiming, if you could tell me how to tweak NCTH in order to:
- have more controllable recoil
- hit substantially at 5-6 tile range
- have hard headshots still

I would be gratefull

[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2014 16:55] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #336758] Fri, 17 October 2014 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:299
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Well, in all fairness, NCTH feels very hard when at the beginning of a campaign, but when you get some stuff (weapons, attachments) and better stats on your mercs, it suddenly feels easy, you make a lot more hits.
It's especially sensible with burst/auto shots. When you manage to have more recoil management than the weapon kicks, you suddenly have a killing machine. Look for grips, bipods, and low recoil weapons for that. By the way, I tend to use leg shot a lot when shooting auto, if the weapon has some recoil with my merc, some bullets end in the torso or head, else, they just fly over.

Aiming makes a huge difference in NCTH, however it's statistical, it doesn't garanty a hit. Try to look at the aiming circle, find the good balance between APs spent and circle radius reduced, as there are often efficiency steps.

I don't know your mercs, but marksmanship isn't the only stat taken into account for a shot. Dex, Wis, Exp play a huge role depending on what and how you shoot. Str helps a lot for the recoil (Steroid is a real killer with an auto weapon mid game).

You should have a look at CTHConstants.ini, it has all the parameters you need to tweak if you want to, and a lot of things are explained there. If you want to improve iron sight accuracy, Silversurfer (i guess it was him) implemented a parameter for it: IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS

[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2014 17:52] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #336855] Mon, 20 October 2014 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
Played farther into the campaign with NCTH (last time i played and turned it off in the options midgame. It was still possible then).

As soon as you get first reflex sights and scope x2 the game becomes much more easier.

I understand why the experience is so frustrating in the beginning:
- IRL iron sights vs holo etc would not make this much difference for aimed shots up to 100 meters. (As i experienced and the instructor told me, it is much more about shooting technique e.g. no sudden pulls on the trigger than aiming itself. Up to 100 meters everyone can aim more or less clearly. even less problems with 50 meters and below)
- still gameplay wise there should be noticeable difference for the attachments otherwise why bother. And as you can't make a gun shoot 9 out of 10 with attachments you have to nerf the iron sights.

That's the dilemma and you can't get away from it Smile

But overall the system looks very well shaped.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #336873] Mon, 20 October 2014 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Do you play with the stable or unstable build? The unstable has a parameter IRON_SIGHTS_MAX_APERTURE_USE_GRADIENT in CTHConstants.ini. This is set to FALSE per default. If you enable it iron sights maintain their effectiveness over longer range. Also with this setting an unskilled shooter can even be more effective with iron sights because his scope effectiveness value is low.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337002] Wed, 22 October 2014 22:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vincent J. Claymore

 
Messages:270
Registered:February 2011
Just to make sure: Are you aware that 1 tile represents 10m in Jagged Alliance? There are no 3m shots, the shortest you get is 10m (=1 tile). That helps understand why people miss shots a few tiles away...

Ablomis
I tried to play NCTH but it drives me insane for the following reasons:
- it is unbalancing in the context of the game. You miss a lot while enemies just charge at you constantly. And since there can be like 30 enemies on a map you can be swarmed with these zerlings quickly if you miss a lot. IRL you would pop charging enemies unless they are moving smart.
- Misses at point blank range. I can shoot a real 9mm pistol at 10m very easily, hitting all 10s. At shooting range. Combat is definately not a shooting range, but i'm not not a mercenary with 15 years of service.
- with OCH you feel the difference between aimed and non-aimed shot. With the NCTH the difference is much less prominent in terms of the feeling. I'm standing 3 meters away, make 2 aimed shots with a guy with 90 marksmanship and i miss. I'ts like omfg, wtf?!

Probably NCTH is more realistic in its nature, but it just doesn't feel right game-wise.

It's just IMHO.

I'm not blaiming, if you could tell me how to tweak NCTH in order to:
- have more controllable recoil
- hit substantially at 5-6 tile range
- have hard headshots still

I would be gratefull
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337046] Thu, 23 October 2014 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
Where does this 1 tile = 10 meters comes from?

I mean i understand the skew of weapons stats to match the small maps (more like a 1 to 10 physics skew rather than distance), but it does not make any sense to have a 100 square meters bathroom.

Or consider merc movement speed against the distance. (They move more like it is 1 tile for 1 m)

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337049] Thu, 23 October 2014 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3779
Registered:July 2009
For about the millionth time: Different scales are used for different things, with gun ranges being scaled down to allow 'Hollywood' shootouts on the same screen rather than firing on people on the other side of the map with an MP5. Nearly every game does that to some extent.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337066] Thu, 23 October 2014 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vincent J. Claymore

 
Messages:270
Registered:February 2011
Yeah, this is a concession they took from tabletop war games like Warhammer or Confrontation. It is a convention there that in terms of movement 1 tile (or 1 inch on the table) is one meter, but in terms of firing guns, 1 tile is 10 meters. The reason for this is a) that the miniatures on the table would have to be absolutely tiny to use realistic ranges for rifles, etc., b) that the tables would have to be absolutely huge and c) to make melee more important.

If you applied 1:1 scale in Jagged Alliance, almost all (non-pistol) guns could shoot from one side of the map to the other. Most ARs are more or less accurate on 300m or more. Imagine that in Ja2 considering the screen resolution and map size.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337069] Thu, 23 October 2014 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
Guys cmon. I'm not that stupid...
Scaled down guns characteristics does not necessary mean 1 tile = 10 meters

you know that there are functions that are not linear right?
It means that it can be that blank = point blank while 10 tiles = 100 meters e.g.

It is all about how you scale things in your universe.
It would make sense to scale physics (which is all about functions) rather then scale "space".

[Updated on: Thu, 23 October 2014 23:43] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337073] Fri, 24 October 2014 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vincent J. Claymore

 
Messages:270
Registered:February 2011
It sure would make sense, absolutely. But that's how JA2 was designed. Not sure if any form of non-linear ranges could be used. If you play on big maps with AIMNAS (no idea how to install that, so I can only tell you about it, have no experience myself) the ratio is only 1:3 and the maps are 5 times the size of normal maps.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337130] Sat, 25 October 2014 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alansa
Messages:2
Registered:October 2014
Playing NCTH and finding it a bit of a nightmare TBH. Raven with a SV98 and can't hit a barn door forget a head shot(if it was an option). All 3 of my snipers are hopeless and the rest not much better.

Must be doing something wrong but the guns are in good condition, bipod while lying prone and aimed shot with max AP at perfect ranges yet get 20% hit rate if even that.


Is there really no way back to OCTH with Build: 7435 mid game. Maybe some dark sorcery I'm unaware of?

[Updated on: Sat, 25 October 2014 12:52] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337132] Sat, 25 October 2014 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
The sorcery is called "debugging" -> http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/337123/Guide_to_debugging?#Post337123.

It's the only option to change CTH system mid game.

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337219] Mon, 27 October 2014 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
By the way, it would be nice if there was a significant bonus to hit a stationary target (the one has not moved for a turn e.g.)

I link this to the usage of silent rfiles, e.g. VSS Vintorez. Basically i should be able to hit every shot (at least first) otherwise, the rifle is rendered useless...

E.g. if the person has not moved and has not changed stances, (and is not prone) there should be a significant bonus to hit.
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337238] Mon, 27 October 2014 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
You already get a malus against non-stationary targets. Same thing, really Smile


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337248] Mon, 27 October 2014 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
Yes & no Smile

For example, in Battletech a target can be considered "not moving" and "immobile" which is two different state.

The same way in JA 2 a target may not be "moving" in a classic understanding, but it does not mean that the guy is not leaning or maybe he just stopped for a second. (or doing any other stuff to make aiming hard). This justifies low CTH which guys in this thread justified.

I'm leading to a fact that there should be some kind of VERY significant bonus to unaware targets. Basically i need 99% hit chance with a silent weapon to pick of guards.
(with proper skills, etc)

50% chance makes sense in combat, but no in silent operation.
I hope i was clear enough Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 27 October 2014 23:05] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337259] Tue, 28 October 2014 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Ablomis
I link this to the usage of silent rfiles, e.g. VSS Vintorez. Basically i should be able to hit every shot (at least first) otherwise, the rifle is rendered useless...
Quote:
I'm leading to a fact that there should be some kind of VERY significant bonus to unaware targets. Basically i need 99% hit chance with a silent weapon to pick of guards.
(with proper skills, etc)

50% chance makes sense in combat, but no in silent operation.

There's a neat trick to achieve your desired combat outcome, my friend:
Toggle Spoiler
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337270] Tue, 28 October 2014 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
Nice trolling Smile
For i might not use silent tactics, but it would be more fun to make it viable.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 10:44] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337278] Tue, 28 October 2014 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3779
Registered:July 2009
Please describe how such a bonus would work without being exploitable to a degree that one IMP with a Vintorez and 3 reserve magazines can clear a sector of 64 men.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337279] Tue, 28 October 2014 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1387
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
DepressivesBrot
The idea is probably when the enemy sees a fresh corpse, he goes to higher alert state and the megaCTH bonus vanishes, similar to how garotte insta-kill works.

But anyway agree it's like cheating, the existing weapons are accurate enough.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #337284] Tue, 28 October 2014 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ablomis

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2014
I got you concern DepressivesBrot.
Theoretically mechanics like in Silent Storm, when you can aim for more then a turn would help:
- if the guy is stationary and not aware - you can take all the time in the world to aim at him.

I dunno if this is feasible, it's just a raw idea for you to think over.


Basically current situation if you want to go silent is:
get AS VAL get from behind at point blank - kill

i can't use VSS Vintorez efficiently anyway: if you go point blank - get Val, if you stay far- there is still a significant margin of error. (Which will end any silent assault quickly)

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 13:56] by Moderator

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #338612] Mon, 29 December 2014 04:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JA2 Fanatic

 
Messages:41
Registered:February 2005
Location: Vienna/austria
have to add here for the undecided. i played through drassen counterattack yesterday, with 120+ enemy, in 2 seperate battle.
i had 8 mercs in the sector, and ~40 militia. i play aruclo revisited, had only 2 2x scopes and 1 match sight, rest iron sights. pistols, calico and SMGs.

the values are all default, as NCTH is set up in the latest 7609 october release.
it was very painfull i am not sure, it made me switch back to octh.

NCTH does not work for me with lots of enemies, they rush you down to easy and pile up and shoot you in mass.
NCTH forces you to take trades, to trade bullets with the enemy, and as soon as you do that against superiour numbers you loose. you basically roll the dice, few times to often for my taste.

unreliable performance of the shooting, increase gun range problems.

my SMG guys get outgunned at 10 to 15 tiles by hordes of redshirts with pistols. why a pistol has 10tiles/100m range is unclear for me, 93R got 14/140m range...? a machinepistol? average pistol should have like 5 tile/50meter max range imho.
so you get outgunned by AI with 10-14 tile weapons at that stage, while you have like 20 tiles range, and yet your sweet spot between 20 and 15 tiles range is minimal and with NCTH you can not reliable produce results in the time the enemy ran 5 tiles to close the distance.

i like the NCTH as i see what it wants to do, but for it to work i would need to reduce the enemy numbers i have a lot. with "realistic" amount of enemys, realistic hit chance would work i guess, but when there are more than 40+ and sometimes a lot more in the sector(with reinforcements), the NCTH system falls apart for me. the few shots you need to make count, miss more often than not and 1 or 2 turns later there are 5 enemys in your face hosing you down with pistols, while you can make 1 or best 2 full aimed shots in prone position for like 50% hit chance at best.

i went back to OCTH unless i find a way to get simply more accuracy in NCTH. i can hardly cope with my difficulty settings in NCTH Sad
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #338614] Mon, 29 December 2014 05:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M16AMachinegun

 
Messages:308
Registered:September 2013
Solution: Go into the new DifficultySettings .ini or whatever it's called and turn enemy accuracy to -50 for both base and aim. Bam!

Or maybe something more reasonable like -10 or so.

Bump up enemy numbers (or play on a modified INSANE) to make it even more chaotic!
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345306 is a reply to message #338614] Thu, 05 May 2016 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
raditzvisnar

 
Messages:36
Registered:April 2016
Location: Indonesia

Hi all,

I just recently installed 7609, really love new features, love the new crosshair with NCTH, but why my charcater directly infront of enemy, and the crosshair also small, and aiming for the torso(not the hardest part of the body)and still MISS???? Is this almost the same as in the real life? When someone aim your torso, in front of you, after you open the door, and you miss that bullet....in my opinion only flash or quicksilver or magneto or neo can do that...or...you are so very very very blessed..
Rare situation for me....i can understand for long range aiming...may be the range, may be the wind/your health or moral condition, etc.
Is there any option to use new crosshair but still in OCTH? Or maybe a little tweak of NCTH to more logic (long range aiming, i love NTCH...after that case...okay may be bug or glitch)...



http://s19.postimg.org/lr1ya3iyr/KTs_Nb.png http://s19.postimg.org/5w25cqlhb/gbaspa.gif
Nasi Goreng is good
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345309 is a reply to message #345306] Thu, 05 May 2016 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Check the scope mode that you are using. I don't know if it applies to that situation but often players make the mistake of aiming through a scope at close range which applies a big aiming penalty. At close range iron sights are much better.
In general NCTH is much different than OCTH. The inner aiming circle represents the area the bullet can go and if you are unlucky it will miss unless the circle is small enough to only cover the targeted region of the body.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345310 is a reply to message #345309] Thu, 05 May 2016 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
raditzvisnar

 
Messages:36
Registered:April 2016
Location: Indonesia

Mm..kinda strange, no attachment at all...the merc is lynx, holding glock, in front of enemy after the enemy open the door, let' s say about 1m or 1,5m, the aiming circle was small..and still miss! I had no idea at that time..all i could see is an enemy wearing red shirt, and green trouser(not badguy wearing anti-telephatic helmet, or guy wearing red with thunder logo on his chest)...but i really love NCTH when it comes to long range aim, you must wait, until enemy more closer to you, still aiming, and when you get smaller circle, BAM...hole in enemy's torso. And i also love the size...OCTH for me is to small..more simple but to small.



http://s19.postimg.org/lr1ya3iyr/KTs_Nb.png http://s19.postimg.org/5w25cqlhb/gbaspa.gif
Nasi Goreng is good
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345311 is a reply to message #345310] Thu, 05 May 2016 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Let's just assume that it was a case of bad luck which can happen to everyone. big grin



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345318 is a reply to message #345311] Fri, 06 May 2016 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
raditzvisnar

 
Messages:36
Registered:April 2016
Location: Indonesia

Okay...

Is true that 1 tile is equal to 10 meter???? So if you open the door, and see a badguy from 1 tile so it means he stand 10m from you? Come on....hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahah so when you go to san mona, and enter the MMA game, so the ring may be equal to soccer stadium????? Hahahahahhahahahahahahah come on



http://s19.postimg.org/lr1ya3iyr/KTs_Nb.png http://s19.postimg.org/5w25cqlhb/gbaspa.gif
Nasi Goreng is good
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345319 is a reply to message #345318] Fri, 06 May 2016 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Yes, as far as gun range and shooting goes. This has always been the way, since v1.00. Using 'realistic' ranges would skew the game too much - for example, there would be no point in sniper rifles if the entire map were well withing pistol range, no?

Bigmaps (used in AIMNAS) are much bigger, afaik the ratio there is more akin to 1 tile ~ 3 to 4 meters.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #345321 is a reply to message #345319] Fri, 06 May 2016 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
raditzvisnar

 
Messages:36
Registered:April 2016
Location: Indonesia

waooooow.. :v :v :v
well....still JA2 is a game... :v :v :v
since it is a game, NCTH for some people is too realistic, for me is good but may be lil'bit glitchy or buggy
(with the food system also, may be i should request to next 1.13 release to have "take a shit" feature since the food system ON or to "laundry your clothes" feature)







http://s19.postimg.org/lr1ya3iyr/KTs_Nb.png http://s19.postimg.org/5w25cqlhb/gbaspa.gif
Nasi Goreng is good
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #346380 is a reply to message #332442] Wed, 27 July 2016 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Falconroid
Messages:1
Registered:July 2016
My 2 cents as an old fan...

Comparing to my shooting experience in real life and other mil-sim games, I think NCTH constructed a great framework but contains some very poor judgement on settings. Generally it over estimated the magnification effect of the scope (or the size of the target down range) and over exaggerated the close range penalty, by a lot... Making it a potentially realistic system but yet extremely not realistic due to bad settings.
Also it way way over estimated the importance of laser pointers/indicators.
let me find some pictures from google... Oops as new member I cannot post link or pictures angry I will try to tell the story without pictures then...

1. A 4x scope like ACOG should be very handy for 100m shooting, it's center reticle range finding block width is based on 100m chest target width. and that width is yet a small part of the view when targeting on 100m range.
Why on earth should we punish a 4x scope on short range?

on the other hand for an average shooter 4x scope is most comfortable for 200m shooting:
it takes some effort for an average shooter hitting something beyond that on a 4x scope, say 300m above.
but a 6x scope is pretty ideal for that job.
and 6x at 100m is a bit too much but still can be aimed pretty easily...
yes it would take more effort aiming, but it will be deadly accurate (if you know about elevation/zeroing)
This link has some great pictures to help visualizing:
ww w.ar15.co m/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=79&t=130844
(please get ride of the spaces)

and that brought question 2.
why on earth should prone reduce vertical spread of the bullet? it's more of a elevation/zeroing thing.
I believe we need to consider aiming accuracy in 3 parts:
a) pointing the gun accurately is one, a proper scope is definitely gonna help.
b ) controlling the rifle properly and shooting properly is important, that is down to dexterity and marksmanship of course.
c) then there's knowing the bullet drop, ranging, wind and moving target correction etc. that's high level marksmanship and sniper training.

then 3.
Why on earth should the laser pointer help that much?
it indeed help on short range, but not far especially on day time, it would help you on the initial pointing-weapon-to-enemy step, but further aiming should still be done to hit accurately, it should be more like a <flatbase> bonus instead of bonus per aim level.

Also you just can't see a red dot on naked eye at 200m on day time!
even if you can see it, still there's no indication that's where the bullet is gonna hit on long range, as elevation/bullet drop is the hardest bit on long range shooting.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Overall suggestion:
Long term (what I can't do by editing .ini)

A) The punishment of large mag scope on short range should only be extra aim level and elevation judgement.
An average shooter COULD hit a target easily if he's using an 6x scope on 100m, just not efficient(using more AP), he should not be punished by CTH!
But then, a high mag scope, should only reduce the width of the circle, yet punished on the height of the circle (proportional to magnification).
If we take a newbie shooter like ira, giving her a sniper rifle with 12x scope, she could aim at a head sized target at 100m deadly accurate using all her effort(very high AP cost), but the bullet is gonna fly half meter over the target because she does not understand the scope is zeroed at 400m!(very narrow but very tall CTH circle).
If we have an expert sniper, the height of the circle should be as tiny as the width of the circle, but using up lots of AP with this 12x scope (of course still less than Ira), of course he could have hit the 100m target much easier with a 2x or 4x scope, with less AP but same accuracy.
A newbie can hit a 100m chest target way easier with 4x scope than iron sight, it takes longer for him to aim with a 6x but would still be very accurate, and will be very likely to miss the target if given a 12x or 24x scope, only because he has no idea about elevation!

B ) I would suggest on each extra aiming click, the width of the CTH reticle reduce twice as much as the height of it.[/b]
so that shooter can point his/her gun accurately by effort(AP), but not knowing how high/what elevation he should use, unless he has high marksmanship/sniper training, which reduce either base or proportion of the height of the CTH circle.
Say Ira with a sniper rifle with 24x scope shooting 600m, she does not know handling/breath control/trigger control that well to shoot accurately, so even on a calm day on stationary target, she misses the target (large reticle).
While an average shooter, would aim pretty well, (small width of the reticle), but not knowing enough ranging/elevation causing him more likely to miss the shot even on a calm day(large height of CTH circle).
A sniper however, know it all and perform it well, he could further reduce the height of the CTH circle to make it a perfect round shape and most likely be able to hit the stationary target on a calm day.
Saying that, any moving target would reduce CTH by huge amount, it's difficult for even the best sniper to hit a running target at 600m.
CTH of running target should be dropped by 50% for running target for an average shooter on 200m range, the further the worse.
Movement correction should also be a marksmen/sniper specific training.

C)Lasers should give a flatbase (say 50) or percentbase CTH bonus from 0m, then linearly drop down till it reach its effective range. (Say 50m to 100m day time depending on type of laser, 100-200m night time)
it should not help CTH per aim click much, maybe set it to 0.
This setting allows you to point your pistol to enemy's head at point blank range without aiming, but it only helps you to point you gun at general direction a bit down 50m, if you want to guarantee the hit, you still need to aim.
You could not easily see a laser dot down 100m day time with naked eye.
you might be able to see it with 4x scope but why then you need the laser to aim?
You might still be able to tell a super powerful laser dot down 300m with a powerful scope at night, but that's not where the bullet is gonna hit!.
Those laser pointer with super long night range (like AN/PEQ-2) are more for target indication rather than for shooting when it's used on very long distance. They are very handy as a IR torch too, don't know whether we can simulate that? say nightvision range bonus only when you are wearing a NVG.


Short term (what I can do and have done by editing .ini)
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 50
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5
reasons are an average shooter should be only comfortable shooting a chest target at 50m with iron sight, 100m shooting requires a good marksmanship. then it make sense for scopes too!
e.g.an ACOG 4x32 would be optimal at 200m, and not being punished at 100m, just like in real life!

min to optimal range becomes:
1x: 0-50m
2x: 50-100m
4x: 100-200m
7x: 175m-350m
10x: 250m-500m

I still use AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = -4 as there's not way to simulated poor elevation judgment yet.

This setting also reduce the effectiveness of the laser so a good shooter no longer require a great laser pointer to shoot accurately (which is weird to see laser being more handy than 4x scope at 200m for a good shooter).

of course this reduction in normal shooting distance would reduce general CTH
so we have to find a good max aperture,
I use DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE = 6 to 7 for now, which seems quite good.
(but hey why would my bullet fly 12 deg off target as originally setting, even if I'm the shittest shooter?)
Now A good shooter can still have realistic CTH with a red dot sight on 100-150m.
but a good scope becomes essential on longer range, EVEN if you have laser pointer...
and you no longer need a laser pointer to shoot accurately.

I raised VERTICAL_BIAS = 1 as I don't see the point for this.
I set RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8 and GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 9.8(see the joke? cheeky)
just my personal preference, this emphasize the importance of bullet drop management on near extreme range, and a more parabolic drop.
and with this, finally we can change pistol range setting to real world numbers(why 130m pistol range in game! you must be kidding!)

I increased Base and Aim value of one handed and two guns by a lot, as in real life pistols are much harder to shoot than stocked weapons! but in the game pistols feel like the king of the world at CQC (they are not! they say pistols are only there to help you to get to your rifle cheeky)
MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE was also increased by a lot as reasoned above.
There are other minor changes too but its all more personal preference than with proper logic.


Hope this helps those like to try NCTH but felt lots of pain.
I would love to change some of the NCTH formula if someone point me the right direction?

Regards
Falconroid
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #346389 is a reply to message #346380] Thu, 28 July 2016 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Inukshuk

 
Messages:88
Registered:September 2009
Location: Canada
Does anyone know if there's a way to switch from OCTH to NCTH in the middle of a game? Don't ask how I got into this situation without somehow noticing earlier....
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #346393 is a reply to message #346389] Thu, 28 July 2016 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Can only be done with a debugger which allows to modify the corresponding variable in memory.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #346400 is a reply to message #346393] Fri, 29 July 2016 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Inukshuk

 
Messages:88
Registered:September 2009
Location: Canada
Thanks silversurfer. I suspected as much.
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