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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333518]
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Thu, 05 June 2014 03:15
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anv |
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Messages:258
Registered:March 2013 |
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Yep, that's why it was a mock-up
For try, I was able to keep old dialogue box in tactical and then show second one together with previous one, but text in old one was replaced with new one, so something's still off. Finished dialogue can be kept from disappearing by rigging HandleDialogueEnd (blocking RemoveMercPopupBoxFromIndex, SetAutoFaceInActive and surroundings), but then the new window won't be created due to condition in ExecuteTacticalTextBox "if( fTextBoxMouseRegionCreated == TRUE )", and if it's out, then this box will be hijacked for next quote in PrepareMercPopupBox. Another replace (both "iBoxId == -1" with 1==1) and new popup is created OK. Then I blocked region define and modified popup new overlay top value in ExecuteTacticalTextBox if region is already defined.
If two and more parallel dialogue windows prove too hard to make, then maybe show only their portraits, and text window for merc who is currently speaking. Showing just unanimated dummy portrait in the mean time for other merc should be easier, showing quotes one after another makes sense chronologically and allows for longer exchanges than 1 quote on each side and even others mercs could pop by with their support. See mission briefings in Starcraft (text area was in the same place for all participants, but that's not necessary).
I'm afraid unintelligible pseudotalk would be too funny to take it seriously. Maybe with very well fitted sound sample, but it's hard to imagine for me without laughing.
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333533]
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Thu, 05 June 2014 21:34
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Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009 Location: Germany |
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Maalstroom@flug something is off. I started a new game to test this new feature and i liked it.. organized a drinking fest and then started a new game.. the problem is the opinions formed in the previous game are mentained in the new one.. at least for the imp.
in the first game he had a thief background and in the second a merc background - but in both he had a -5 five from the mercs hired in both first and second game...
maybe some files should get cleaned at the begining of a new game. Found the reason, will commit a fix later.
Edit: Fixed in r7269.
[Updated on: Fri, 06 June 2014 03:41] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333588]
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Tue, 10 June 2014 00:26
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Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009 Location: Germany |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saUx929zHF8&feature=youtu.be[/video]
This a very, very early prototype of what I have in mind for dynamic dialogue. Basically each time an opinion event happens, the mercs can start complaining and arguing about it. Once correctly set up, their personalities, opinions, relations, traits etc. could then determine into what direction that argument goes... which can then influence opinions again.
It would be cool if there was at least some way to interact here, so I've decided that the IMPs, as they represent the player, can be controlled a bit here. The IMP has a few seconds to decide what to say. So you can somewhat control the direction of an argument by siding with some mercs against others. Or you can decide to use your authority an stop the argument. These actions could then influence your teams opinion as well... you get the idea. The possibilities are huge. I guess anv will have a field day with this once its finished (which will still be a while).
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333662]
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Thu, 12 June 2014 15:28
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rummtata |
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Messages:103
Registered:April 2011 Location: Germany |
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@Gorro: I didn't say "only", I said "more than"
My judgement is based on the following facts:
1. There is very little story happening and, in particular, no actual "plot". You know your task from the beginning, there are no twists or turns, it's a "job" rather than a "quest".
2. There is no actual protagonist around whom such a plot could evolve. The player is an invisible background-persona like the "commander" in RTS games.
3. There is little "adventure". Player/IMPs/Mercs do what they do for money, they have no personal stake in what goes down other than risking their lives [which is part of their job]. Only for the NPCs there is an "open end" for the story, the mercs will return from their mission and resume their actual lives; from their perspective the events of the game are episodic and, ultimately, without consequence.
How do you define "strategic"? I'd say decisions like
- which personnel to hire
- where to attack / in wich order
- how to get by with your resources, how to acquire more
are strategic, whereas what yo do during combat is "tactical".
I don't think JA2 deserves to be called a trade simulation by any stretch of the imagination. Other than producing income from mines (which you cannot influence/manage in any way) and selling the stuff you loot or steal, what is there going on trading-wise? You can never sell something for more than the purchasing price, that alone kind of defeats the principle of trading, right?
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Sergeant
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333677]
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Fri, 13 June 2014 02:27
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rummtata |
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Messages:103
Registered:April 2011 Location: Germany |
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JMichI think you just described "The Temple of Elemental Evil". Or maybe "Icewind Dale".
A well-placed blow, my friend! :swordfight:
I'll admit: both of these are indeed more combat-orientated and less RPG-ish than their predecessors.
However! Both feature a lot more story, plot and adventure than JA2 and a much more complex character developement, not to mention actual choice-driven dialogue and narrated story sequences.
There is no main character/protagonist in either case, but the party members influence the story via their alignment and social skills (like diplomacy/intimidate).
I still hold JA2 to be a unique mixture of tactical combat, strategic management and roleplaying elements, in a descending order. The RP is an important, but minor part. Can be extended through modding, or as usual, in your head
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Sergeant
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333823]
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Sat, 21 June 2014 00:16
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Charlie_May |
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Messages:27
Registered:March 2009 |
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Alright. I understand if the website is too difficult/cumbersome to remove. I could have guessed that this was the problem, because usually your features are quite customizable, which I appreciate. As I said, it was only a minor gripe anyway.
I don't care if you are being arrogant or not. At the end of the day, you've earned the right to be a little arrogant at least, because you do a wonderful job on the mod, and the good things that you added will always outweigh the features that I find less desirable. For example, it always irked me a little that I couldn't turn off Headrock's facilities system COMPLETELY if I felt like it (with no traces of it remaining) but in the end, his suppression system is my favorite feature of 1.13 (the one that I most miss when I play vanilla), so I couldn't complain... And for the same reason, I can't complain to you. I'm sorry if I sounded whiny in asking you to remove the website.
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Private 1st Class
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333828]
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Sat, 21 June 2014 03:54
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anv |
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Messages:258
Registered:March 2013 |
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Way I see it, unlike many other features, opinions don't require micromanagement, bah, they work better if Player just lets them happen in the background (with exception of IMP occasionally butting in, but that can be ignored too). The more out of control, the better. Sometimes one accident of friendly fire can launch a spiral of hate, sometimes mercs work together like a clockwork, what can you do? Giant party to celebrate victory? Sure, but that's it. On Player's side, he just has to react to results of events - separate enemies, keep buddies together for optimal performance. Fact that opinion values can be traced back to specific events only enrich a game narration. Charlie_May has a point however about MeLoDY breaking suspension of disbelief.
In vanilla all used opinion values were hidden from Player, only feedback being occasional whining and threats to quit (and that's only for few buddies/foes, those with ~+10/-10 modifiers were hidden without looking into game files). Figuring out likes/dislikes was part of fun (before Internet broke everything).
At the moment MeLoDy is only source of feedback about opinions, but with upcoming dynamic opinion dialogue its significance will be partially lifted from the website. Maybe they should start taxing you for using their services and show event modifiers with a delay (one day to process every event)? Another idea - show detailed values only if deputy or snitch (shameless snitch pitch ) is present in squad (someone who actually keeps track of opinion events and can pass them to MeLoDy analysts), otherwise only show estimated values?
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #333920]
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Sat, 28 June 2014 13:43
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Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009 Location: Germany |
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Update: r7297 and GameDir r2058 introduce Dynamic dialogue, which is tied to this feature. It also introduces some new events:
; sometimes another mercs can interject in an ongoing argument. If it is an IMP, the player can choose what to say
; There is a chance that parties in the argument alter their opinion towards the 'interjector' depending on the statement
; someone argued against/for us
OPINIONEVENT_AGAINST_US = -2
OPINIONEVENT_FOR_US = 2
; someone argued against/for the othe side of the argument
OPINIONEVENT_AGAINST_ENEMY = 1
OPINIONEVENT_FOR_ENEMY = -1
; someone attempted to solve the argument by taking a reasonable stance, and we like/dislike that
OPINIONEVENT_SOLVECONFLICT_REASON_GOOD = 2
OPINIONEVENT_SOLVECONFLICT_REASON_BAD = -2
; someone attempted to solve the argument by taking an aggressive stance, and we like/dislike that
OPINIONEVENT_SOLVECONFLICT_AGGRESSIVE_GOOD = 3
OPINIONEVENT_SOLVECONFLICT_AGGRESSIVE_BAD = -3 These events can happen as a result of the dialogue.
Also, events that happened more than 4 days ago are no longer forgotten. Those events are no added to 'longterm opinion memory'. The total sum of dynamic opinions of a day, divided by 5, is added before that day's events are deleted. This simulates that memory fades, but you still somewhat remember things. It is listed as Past Grievances on the MeLoDY website.
Also, the new ini option DYNAMIC_OPINIONS_SHOWCHANGE controls whether you will get a small message in your log whenever an opinion event happens. The colour indicates whether opinion was raised (green) or lowered (red).
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #334097]
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Tue, 08 July 2014 23:18
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Randok |
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Messages:321
Registered:March 2004 |
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I still think that should be left to the system: one square-one information.
It can replace the square on the mini icon of tank.
PS This post should be in "Drivable Vehicles"
[Updated on: Wed, 09 July 2014 11:04] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: New Feature: Dynamic opinions[message #336252]
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Sat, 27 September 2014 23:23
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Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009 Location: Germany |
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As or r7533, new events were added:
- If one of our mercs kills an enemy in a very graphic way, others might cheer - or be appalled. Their reaction depends on wether they are a good person, pacifist, malicious, agressive or psychotic (or under psycho drugs)
- If a merc is trained by someone else, they can be thankful if they learn something.
A notable fix should increase the frequency with which mercs agree with someone else. Especially if someone thanks them, mersc are now more likely to say 'thank you' instead of starting a flamewar
The dialogues has been reordered, this should make it easier to add new ones. Not that anybody else is doing that
Adding dialogues is tedious, so I'm not sure when I'm going to be motivated for more. I need a pause.
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