Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.
My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335768] Sun, 14 September 2014 08:39 Go to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
Hi,

I've created a new version (that is more like a whole redesign) of my weapons progression. This time it also includes a full overhaul of the IMP, MERC, AIM mercenary and in-game NPC starting gear. I am currently playing with it currently and I figured I'd share it along.

You can get the new version here:
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/926631/LevProgressionV2p1.zip

Installation instructions:
Unzip into your base Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 folder, overwriting existing files.
This overwrites the files in the following folder (I suggest you back them up ahead of time):
<Base JA2 Folder>/Data-1.13/TableData/Inventory

Overall, it lowers the tech level used by the Arulcan army and focuses it on WW2 surplus weapons, older Warsaw-Pact weapons and hunting weapons re-purposed for military use (fitting the narrative of an embargoed rogue nation). It up-guns the mercs to match by giving them SMGs and old rifles in place of pistols on all but the cheapest of mercs (I did preserve the character of most mercs, however, so the crazies tend to still pack weird crazy things, just often more of them). It also adds more LBE gear and attachments to mercs to make things more interesting, and also provides them with significantly more ammo (since non-WP ammo will be hard to come by in this new Arulco, with the possible exception of 5.56mm...if you get lucky with supply dumps - Or play with them all enabled). The game plays quite differently in this fashion: If you wish to outgun the locals significantly and use the best guns in the world, you may well need to rely more heavily on imports. Nobody will drop 4.7mm or 5.7mm ammo in Arulco, except for rare special encounters, for example.

Enjoy!

***** Original Message Below *****

Hi!

New user here, and for my first post I decided not to show up empty handed. I've been playing JA2 since it was released, and 1.13 for quite a while now, and truth to be told, the weapon progression in 1.13 bothered me a bit.

It just didn't make much sense to me (way too many pistols, for example!), and to celebrate the new stable 1.13 I decided to change the weapons used by the enemy (militia re-balance is coming, too). First, I wanted to just change my own game, but then I decided to share the results in case someone is interested.

For the impatient ones, the download link is here:
<Link redacted due to (silly) forum rules - Contact me via a message to get the older ZIP file>

[color:#FF0000]October 3rd, 2014: Militia Tables Added![/color]

The excel spreadsheet is what I used in the balancing progress. The XML files include comments showing the weapon names (it is hard to remember IDs) as well as the percentage of each weapon's appearance out of all the weapons at the specified progress level. If you don't like spoilers, don't open it and just read the general overview below.

The installation instructions are:
Copy the .xml files from the ZIP archive into the Data-1.13\TableData\Inventory sub-folder in your 1.13 install, overwriting the old ones. For example, I would place them here on my system:
E:\Games\JA2_Stable7435\Data-1.13\TableData\Inventory

Now, for the how and why. The spoiler tags contain the detailed info about the weapons available at the various progress levels. If you want to be surprised, don't read them Smile

I set out to re-balance the weapons with the following rationale, keeping in mind that I prefer to play with "drop all" enabled and arm myself off what I loot.

Admin: Armed with out-dated weapons that the army itself skipped, the Admins aren't as standardized as the Army is. They have quite a selection of weapons shooting all sorts of ammunition. These weapons are revolvers, bolt-action rifles, old shotguns and ancient SMGs. Some old semi-automatic weapons are also issued. You won't find machineguns here, nor sniper rifles. This was balanced for completeness - It seems like Admins are a short-lived phenomenon in the game, which is a shame.

Toggle Spoiler


Redshirt: The standing Arulcan Army is armed mostly with WP weapons. They have no exotic equipment, but none of them are armed with solely pistols. The SMG is the basic weapon of Deidranna's army, with various AKs and derived weapons (mostly in 7.62x39) forming most of their equipment, but some odd-ball choices are also thrown in, especially at lower progress. The weapons are mostly old, but of mostly modern concept (for example, the most common assault rifles are the AKM and some of its derivatives) but in general the equipment is in-line with what you'd expect of a country like Arulco.

Toggle Spoiler


Elite: The elites operating alongside Deidranna's Army are mostly hired mercenaries, with some home-cooked "special forces" thrown in. Equipment commonality is rare, as nearly every single man here is armed according to his own preference. Elites are always armed with modern weapons, both WP and Western. At the lowest progress they are armed with Machinepistols and large-caliber pistols, but they quickly progress to pistol-caliber carbines and modern SMGs, accurate semi-automatic rifles, assault rifles and it gets worse for you from there.

Toggle Spoiler


Whew, that was a long post. I hope you enjoy these! Feedback is welcome!

[Updated on: Thu, 22 September 2016 07:28]

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335769] Sun, 14 September 2014 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
Sounds interesting and very dangerous to our mercs, especially at the beginning where we have pistols and the army has SMGs. Do you plan to overhaul the starting equipment too to be in line with the enemy layout?

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335771] Sun, 14 September 2014 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
Indeed, I do plan to. I am currently playing with this set on the latest stable to see how it works out. I have changed the starting equipment for IMPs to be based around the M1 Carbine - With multiple IMPs that is enough to make the early game playable (and you're going to have army weapons right after the first engagement for non-IMP members of the team). I will edit the AIM/MERC starting equipment as well to be in-line with the early game in this new form. There's also additional changes I would like to make, but I'd rather just release them when I am done and tweak later based on feedback rather than promise a lot and not deliver.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335922] Fri, 19 September 2014 02:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:282
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
This sounds like a great idea, and a decent implementation, though I do wonder at balance. In my last couple games I found the WW2 rifles to be great weapons all the way into mid-game sometimes even later as they fire powerful rounds with decent accuracy and are 'rifle' based so a hunter or marksman gets that nice bonus. The ww2 stuff also tends to have a pretty long effective range which can be an issue early game that you might want to test a bit.

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335937] Fri, 19 September 2014 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1448
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Always good to see some progression rebalancing. :thumbsup:

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335976] Sun, 21 September 2014 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
pheloncab
This sounds like a great idea, and a decent implementation, though I do wonder at balance. In my last couple games I found the WW2 rifles to be great weapons all the way into mid-game sometimes even later as they fire powerful rounds with decent accuracy and are 'rifle' based so a hunter or marksman gets that nice bonus. The ww2 stuff also tends to have a pretty long effective range which can be an issue early game that you might want to test a bit.


The WW2 bolt-action weapons are very accurate in the game and shoot powerful rounds, that is true, but they are incredibly slow to shoot with. They make for good early "sniper" rifles, if you manage to get a scope (otherwise they are just too slow to be practical), but the fact they are this slow makes them really poor at any situation where you're faced with multiple enemies - If you want to be accurate with them then you have 1 shot per turn, which is not enough to keep you from getting overwhelmed by a numerically superior enemy.

Now, the M1 Garand is a great gun in 1.13, but it is pretty rare on my drop tables as well.

Since my progression tends to get assault rifles into the game earlier and bases the early game on SMGs and not pistols, the occasional Kar98k or a Mosin are sort of like getting a sniper rifle drop in the assault rifle phase of the game. Nice to have, but you're low on ammo and you won't be getting a lot of them.

Currently, I am at about 28 progress on my playthrough (on insane) with these tables. I have found a single Kar98k (and bought a single rusty old scope from Tony) from enemy drops (with drop all), but I am swimming in all sorts of (mostly old) SMGs and my Kar98k is sitting in a backpack because I shot off all ~20 rounds of ammo it came with. So far the progression seems to be working nicely.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #335977] Sun, 21 September 2014 08:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
Slax
Always good to see some progression rebalancing. :thumbsup:


This is a taking a while. I am currently redoing the tables for the militia weapon progression. This is pretty tedious work and I am trying to playtest it as well (I already caught some bugs. I made a mistake on one of the XMLs and ended up with a Magpul drop at progress 13%, oops).

:compcuppa:

I'll try to get the Militia figured out this week and publish these files too.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #336440] Fri, 03 October 2014 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
Okay, the militia files are done. You can get both the army and militia ones at the download link in the first post. There were a few army re-balances also thrown in, notably some earlier MG introduction.

Let me know if there are any issues.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #339196 is a reply to message #336440] Sun, 01 February 2015 03:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
I just started a campaign with 9 IMPs which gives me a little advantage. Slot 10 is for Ira. I like to take her around for sightseeing. ;)

I play with NCTH on WF6.07 maps. Omerta first sector was only admins so there was no problem since they only had pistols and I had a team of well mixed roles that provide some SMGs, shotguns and rifles from the new IMP item distribution mechanism.
I went on to Drassen B13 where the first real fight started. Only two admins were present. The rest were regulars plus four elites. Most of them had SMGs, some auto pistols and two rifles. I must say that the fight was dangerous because the enemy had better weapons than in the past with old weapon choices. I had to consider my steps very carefully and despite of taking good cover most of the time one of my IMPs was lightly wounded two times and Ira was badly wounded because she had no armor.

If I had started with just a few bad mercs from AIM this fight would have been much more difficult but this is to be expected. Your new lists suits an army much better than the previous pistol only army. After the first fight against regulars it should become easier because you salvage their weapons ... if you survive long enough. ;)

So I wonder if the new weapon progression could be used as default 1.13. I fear that players could complain that their team gets slaughtered too easily. They complain about NCTH already. Now they are outgunned as well...

I will continue the game with your files and see how progress is. I would also like to hear other peoples opinions about these files. So far feedback has been almost non-existent.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #341053 is a reply to message #339196] Tue, 19 May 2015 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anthropoid

 
Messages:145
Registered:February 2014
I'm tempted to try a game on Novice difficulty with this, given it makes the game harder at the start.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #346983 is a reply to message #341053] Tue, 20 September 2016 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
I have created a new version and tried to update the message above with the link, but since I do not have 10 posts, I cannot post links.

In this case, I guess anyone who wants this alternative progression is going to have to request it from me directly.

Silly, I know.

-Lev.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #346986 is a reply to message #346983] Tue, 20 September 2016 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
You may not be able to post links but you can post the address nevertheless. Just use a modified format like this: server . com/restofthelink

I'd like to know what you changed in this new version. Do you have a change log or something?



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #346989 is a reply to message #346986] Wed, 21 September 2016 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:49
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
I don't know how exactly this forum treat links, but usually even just leaving the protocol out (the "http://" part) solves link auto-casting and thus restriction.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #346990 is a reply to message #346989] Wed, 21 September 2016 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
Okay, removing the https part worked. Previously even pasting the address caused the forums to reject the message.

As for the change log. It isn't really a new version, more like a re-design, but the high points include:
1) Full IMP, MERC, AIM and NPC weapon kits. You have no idea how much of a headache that was to sort through, since everyone has multiple gear kits! <-- This did not exist in the previous one.
2) Full tables for the militia and army equipment tables. <-- This existed in the previous one, but the current one is widely different.

You can take a look into the tables if you want spoilers. If you do not want spoilers as to when each weapon becomes available, but want to know the general army equipment, then the following is an Intel Report for you to read. Note that while styled to be "in-character", this is still based on a game and (most likely) some personal bias, so it might not be 100% realistic (I would've loved a MG42 in the Mauser caliber to be available, for example, as well as more "old" caliber stuff. I did try to find a reasonable explanation for a specific weapon being in use, such as countries known to use them before and that would be willing to sell it to Arulco, such as South Africa and South-East Asian origins for used arms).

*** The Arulcan Militia (OOC: Yellowshirts) ***

The Arulcan Militia is a paramilitary organization in charge of patrolling the towns of Arulco, mostly up in the poorest northern settlements. Although subordinate to the army on paper, and sharing the same rank structure, in reality this rather corrupt organization is effectively autonomous. Not quite police and not quite soldiers, Militiamen brutally maintain public order, perform basic criminal investigations (which do not require an actual detective to be dispatched, nor require counter-intelligence operatives) and assist the army against external and internal threats. As it is widely suspected that a significant number of the Arulcan Militia are members of the secret police (or are informants), they are rarely trusted by either civilians or military personnel. The widespread corruption and nepotism in the Militia organization also means that their actual combat ability is poor. This lack of professionalism leads for additional friction with the far more professional army.

Arulcan Militiamen buy their weapons from the government and may pick any weapon they can afford from an approved personal weapon list. Maintenance and ammunition are a personal responsibility, and as a result most weapons are in poor condition. Consequentially, militiamen prefer simple and reliable weapons, for which cannibalized spare parts and ammunition are in plentiful and cheap supply.

The Marakov and Tokarev pistols are the mainstay handguns, while various sawed-off twin-barrel shotguns, longer-barrelled Remington 870 Shotguns and Winchester 94 Trapper Rifles, imported by the crateload as "hunting" weapons through third-party states, are also favorites due to their high reliability. The Czech SA-24 SMG is also common. WW2 surplus rifles, as well as some of their more modern derivatives, are also found despite being far more expensive to procure due to Army competition for the existing stock.

Ammunition in Militia Service: .44 Magnum, 9x18mm Makarov, 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 12 Gauge, .30Car, .30-06, 7.62x54mmR, 7.92x57mm Mauser.

*** The Arulcan Regular Army (OOC: Redshirts) ***

The Arulcan Regular Army is a surprisingly professional force, unaffected by the corruption and nepotism that plagues the Militia. Training is hard, violent, and the individual soldier is desensitized to gore, torture and brutality. Since members of the military are paid very well compared to the populace, as well as due to the brutal physical and psychological training, the soldiers view themselves as the elite of society and are protective of their status and privilege. As a consequence, members of the armed forces view civilians with disdain and treat poor farmers little better than cattle, with armed robbery, beatings, rape and even murder being common. Due to international weapon embargoes, the low technological threshold of surrounding military rivals, and the rapid expansion of the armed forces during Deidranna's reign, the army is armed with outdated (1950-1960s) surplus military equipment, mostly of Soviet origin (and established local manufacture of mainstay items). An additional result of former Soviet Army ties is that a large amount of WW2 surplus weaponry is also found on the inventory. This arsenal is maintained via machine shops that manufacture spare parts and new weapons in Grumm.

Indigenous production includes the AK(S)-47 assault rifle (chambered in 7.62x39mm, and although it is called an AK-47, it is not entirely identical to the original design, with partial adoption of AKM features), the SKS Carbine (in 7.62x39mm), the RPD LMG (also in 7.62x39mm) and, surprisingly, the M1 Carbine (in .30Car - 7.62x33mm) and the M1 Garand (in .30-06 Springfield, with high attention to accuracy during manufacture, as the current goal is an accurate semi-automatic, full-power rifle of local manufacture, should SVD imports fail). The two US WW2-era weapons have been manufactured in Arulco since the 1950s, together with a copy of the German MG42 (in 7.92x57mm Mauser), and before Deidranna's rule formed most of the arsenal of the Arulcan military up to its rapid expansion. Unlike the M1 Carbine and the M1 Garand, the MG42 is no longer produced or used by the Arulcan military due to the local production of the RPD. While it is established that MG42 specifications, plans and partial production equipment were provided to the Arulcan Monarchy towards the end of WW2 in exchange for a safe haven for escaping Nazi Party members, it is not clear how M1 Carbine and M1 Garand production was established in Arulco.

Imported weapons include Browning M1919 pattern MMGs of various manufacturers and variants (chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO and mostly used on armored vehicles and emplacements, although some are used by the infantry when modified with infantry stocks), RPK LMGs (in 7.62x39mm), PKM MMGs (in 7.62x54mmR) and the Dragunov semi-automatic rifle (in 7.62x54mmR). Mauser M-03 hunting rifles are used as modern sniper rifle replacements due to their civilian market availability (which makes it easy for the government to purchase batches through third-parties), affordable price, high levels of accuracy and existing local ammunition availability.

WW2 surplus Mosin-Nagant and Mauser Karabiner 98k bolt-action rifles are in use by second-line security units and peace time border patrols (as well as by some army snipers when equipped with various optics). The indigenous variant of the M1 Carbine is used by military police units and by border patrols, as well as by support personnel, radio operators, mortar and vehicle crewmen and some officers. The M1 Garands still produced in Arulco are mostly used as DMRs alongside the Dragunov rifles, and marksmen train with both weapons. Not all M1 Garands are equipped with optics, even in the DMR role.

Ammunition in Regular Army Service: .30Car, .30-06, 7.62x51mm NATO, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x54mmR, 7.92x57mm Mauser. All of the small-arms ammunition needs of the Arulcan Army are satisfied by indigenous production and recycling of spent cartridges.

*** The Arulcan Royal Guard (OOC: Blackshirts) ***

The original Royal Guard was the personal protection unit of Arulco's rulers. Under Deidranna's rule, it had been purged and then re-invented as an elitist combat training school for government supporters. Members of the Army (but not Militia) matching several criteria (such as length of service and including having no family history of sedition) can apply to join the Royal Guard. It is not an autonomous fighting force, but rather an advanced training school that supplies specialist troops to Arulcan Regular Army units (although Army units consisting entirely of Royal Guardsmen are not unheard of, especially among special forces detachments). Guardsmen are either assigned to their units permanently, or are attached on a per-mission basis, as needed.

Royal Guardsmen are identified by special badges on their dress uniforms when off-duty and by their better equipment when in the field. In addition to special training, they are further indoctrinated by the state (and are better paid) and so also serve as a counter-weight to the military leadership's sway over the Regular Army (lest it be inclined to rebel and place one of their own on the throne). Specialized training options include: Explosives, Anti-Tank Weapons, Mortar Operation, Breach and Entry, Advanced Weapon Training, Ordinance Removal, Guerilla Tactics, Camouflage, Reconnaissance, Tracking and Path-finding, Navigation, Linguistics, Interrogation, Marksmanship, Sniping and more.

The most common Guardsman role in the Arulcan military is that of a sniper. In this role, they are attached to units on a need basis, or operate independently as part of anti-smuggling operations on Arulco's borders. The weapons used by Guardsmen snipers are Mauser M-03 bolt-action rifles (in 7.92x57mm Mauser), Dragunov pattern rifles (SVD, SVDS and SVU, in 7.62x54mmR) and the sniper variant of the Galil (in 7.62x51mm NATO). Guardsmen machinegunners are armed with the RPD, RPK, PKM or Pecheneg machineguns, while troops armed for breaching and forced entry are equipped with the Saiga 12K semi-automatic shotguns or older SA-24 SMGs in 7.62×25mm Tokarev. Additional rifles in the inventory include the AKM, AKMS, AKMSU (especially among officers who are themselves Guardsmen), AK-103 and AK-104 (all in 7.62x39mm). Finally, the Galil AR (in 7.62x51mm NATO) is also used, most often by spotters for snipers equipped with the Galil Sniper variant, and grenadiers are equipped with the modern OC-14 Groza bull-pup (in 7.62x39mm). Most of these weapons are of Russian or South African manufacture, although some are also made by licensed manufacturers in Central America or the Far East.

As obvious from the above, all weapons issued to Guardsmen share ammunition with Regular Army ammunition stocks or weapons also used by the militia. 12 gauge shotgun shells and 7.62x25mm ammunition are also produced locally.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 September 2016 01:55]

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #346997 is a reply to message #346990] Wed, 21 September 2016 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
Thanks for the update. This sounds like Deidranna's troops favor older reliable weapons and those originating from the Soviet Union. So I guess it will be harder to find modern western weapons in loot and we need to buy them from BR or Tony. Fine by me and it makes sense for this backwater country. A disadvantage may be that we will have to buy a lot of items just to try them.

Looking at the new lists I saw that they now have only a small number of items compared to the old lists. The important thing is that the new lists have items for all merc roles/traits (pistols, SMGs, shotguns, rifles, ARs, machine guns, sniper rifles) so each role can get a sufficient supply of weapons and ammo.

I'll certainly try out the new version because I already liked the old one.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #347003 is a reply to message #346997] Wed, 21 September 2016 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
From my own current playthrough, here is what I observed:
Pistols and SMGs are hard to come by in Arulco. Ammo (9mm, .45, 7.62x25, .40S&W, etc) can be bought off BR and Tony, but the weapons themselves are rarer. This has a side effect (which I sort-of intended for, but the end result is more extreme than I thought) of nerfing Night-Ops. Since a night-attack crawl with silenced weapons is a very, very powerful tool in JA2, I don't think it is quite a bad end result. It also means that providing side arms is more difficult, but aside of cosmetic considerations of having them, I rarely use sidearms once I have reliable semi-auto rifles. That said, I will throw in some older 9mm SMGs such as the Uzi to provide for 9mm weapons and ammo. They are already using South African weapons, or older weapons sold by South African surplus, so this will make sense.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #347016 is a reply to message #347003] Thu, 22 September 2016 07:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lev Arris

 
Messages:9
Registered:September 2014
Location: Oregon, USA
Changes:
1) Uzi now added to army drop tables.
2) Fixed Flo's third inventory, it had the wrong type of ammo.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352049 is a reply to message #335768] Tue, 16 January 2018 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Bit of necroposting here, but silversurfer recently revived these files, hosting them in the SVN.

Been trying the mod out, but I'm not sure if I did something wrong or what: I'm at 10% progress, and I'm seeing nothing but rifles in the Army's hands. The ones they're supposed to have, but just that. Shouldn't they also have SMGs from the previous tier? Could this be some sort of incompatibility with the newer dev builds? Weapon ID changes since 2016? I'm on build 8511.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352050 is a reply to message #352049] Tue, 16 January 2018 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:108
Registered:December 2015
Version 1 had arulcan army equipped mostly with smgs early, but it changed weapons only for enemies and militia. Version 2 is a complete makeover, changing starting equipment for everyone, mercs, IMPs and all, but there Lev went with rifles mostly. So, IMPs start with HEZI rifles, enemies mostly sport older bolt action rifles and so on. There should be an occasional Uzi or something, but rifles are more common. You can give version 1 a try if you want more smgs, your mercs will start with vanilla equipment, which is not great in a world where enemies have decent equips, but after a combat or two, you should get couple drops to equip them. Also if you include the new merchants, rebel quartermaster often has a Type 85 to sell, which helps a bit after getting through the landing (which is pretty predictable as to where the enemies will come from, so beatable even with pistols if really needed).

Don't really know how it goes in the longer run, as I never gave it a proper long term try big grin
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352056 is a reply to message #352050] Wed, 17 January 2018 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Hmm, yeah. I was looking at the original tables, which include SMGs early on. Seems they don't really apply to v2.

I thought the all-rifle loadout might hamper the redshirts' combat ability, but they're sort of complemented by the admin troops' lighter weapons when they're around.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352088 is a reply to message #352056] Sat, 20 January 2018 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Getting massacred in the Drassen counterattack along with a roughly even mixture of green and regular militia on my side (thanks to Kerberus). Full garrison defending the Drassen Mine plus a full garrison reinforcing from the city sector to the north against about 50 goons, about half army and half blackshirts. I had managed to find an AKS-47 in a recent battle, plus an M1 Garand and SKS, but it's just not enough. The blackshirts seem to have assault rifles to some extent, and even if they're older models, they prove devastating against pistol-armed green militia and the single-shot rifles of the regulars. My mercs don't seem to make much of a difference, considering the enemy's attacking from all three possible sides, and it's hard to pick an effective position that isn't exposed.

After several tries, it seems the only alternative left is the "Alamo" strategy at the windowless bar, but who knows if it'll be enough against 50 angry soldiers...



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352089 is a reply to message #352088] Sat, 20 January 2018 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gopas

 
Messages:203
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway
Oh yes it is. Just put 4-5 mercs along the wall facing the door from the side, make some noise so they come to investigate and take them out one at a time.



Just another old soldier.
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352090 is a reply to message #352089] Sat, 20 January 2018 06:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Gopas wrote on Fri, 19 January 2018 23:39
Oh yes it is. Just put 4-5 mercs along the wall facing the door from the side, make some noise so they come to investigate and take them out one at a time.

Yeah, I ultimately beat them that way, just hunkering down in the bar and gunning them down one by one. Still had to reload a few times since there's little margin of error with so many soldiers threatening to overwhelm you.

This isn't really an issue with Lev's mod, but rather with JA2 itself. It's the main instance of the game in which you're basically forced to cheese to the max to get ahead. Doesn't feel particularly well.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352095 is a reply to message #352090] Sat, 20 January 2018 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:108
Registered:December 2015
Can't really say how much Lev's makes Drassen counter harder or whatever, but as for myself, i find it kinda beatable even early on experienced, and just a bit too much on expert (with older values of 60 and 80 soldiers, nowadays, that can be adjusted). Beatable with smgs and some old rifles, without resorting to cheese, I mean.

The key, for myself, is concetrating on one side, letting militia be speedbumps that slow them down coming from the other. Liberal usage of molotovs, both to funnel them into a more predictable assault lanes, and to punish those groupings when needed. And always keeping retreat as an option, pulling out if things go really wrong big grin
delivery7.png  Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352096 is a reply to message #352095] Sat, 20 January 2018 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Here's the resulting haul from the battle, items stacked and ammo unloaded:

https://image.ibb.co/kFi3Ww/drassen_haul.jpg

Serious business for such an early stage. During at least one of my attempts, I saw a soldier even carrying an RPD machinegun.

Now, is this bad? Well, considering the volume of enemies, it's a greater problem for the militia due to the high proportion of blackshirts and their even more advanced weapons, as I mentioned earlier. For the player and their mercs, still, it means being exposed in any way is quite more dangerous, considering there's a lot of soldiers in play and they have the range to credibly land a hit in the same turn.

In general and at least on Experienced, perhaps this could be balanced lowering the enemy CTH to some extent, to compensate for the better equipment? As for the Drassen counterattack, I do find 50 goons rather excessive, and there might be a slight issue with CounterAttackGroupSize (DifficultySettings.xml), which is supposed to allocate 4 groups of 10 for this level. Perhaps a patrol got caught up in the attack force or something.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352097 is a reply to message #352090] Sat, 20 January 2018 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Shadow wrote on Sat, 20 January 2018 05:29
This isn't really an issue with Lev's mod, but rather with JA2 itself. It's the main instance of the game in which you're basically forced to cheese to the max to get ahead. Doesn't feel particularly well.
The alternative interpretation is that this is the point where JA2 reminds you about a number of key points:
1) There is no linear mainquest sending you from the dwarf mine to the elven forest to gather an army against the archdemon, your only objective in this game is to neutralize Queen Deidranna
2) You are an irregular force on a specific mission, not an army intent on conquest
3) Retreat, skirmishing and harassment are valid tactics
I think where the game falls a little short is communicating those things to players who are stuck in a very 'Order 227' mindset on a meta level.



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Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #352100 is a reply to message #352097] Sat, 20 January 2018 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
DepressivesBrot wrote on Sat, 20 January 2018 09:22
The alternative interpretation is that this is the point where JA2 reminds you about a number of key points:
1) There is no linear mainquest sending you from the dwarf mine to the elven forest to gather an army against the archdemon, your only objective in this game is to neutralize Queen Deidranna
2) You are an irregular force on a specific mission, not an army intent on conquest
3) Retreat, skirmishing and harassment are valid tactics
I think where the game falls a little short is communicating those things to players who are stuck in a very 'Order 227' mindset on a meta level.

A valid observation, to be sure.

I think that concept, however, is impeded by the fact mercs are relatively expensive and you need to secure (and protect) sources of income to sustain your operations. If you want to give your game a measure of length, that is. Technically you could go straight to Meduna to accomplish your objective with a lot less preparation, avoiding most combat and doing the minimum necessary tasks.

While that's a valid playstyle, I think most people like to stick around in Arulco significantly longer. The fact you can train militia and the time that takes is a sign the game is perfectly okay with that, implying you can spark and lead a major rebellion as well as a surgical strike, if you wish. But the Drassen counterattack is rather hamfisted in whatever message it may try to convey.

Early on, skirmishing and harassment is costly and time-consuming (therefore doubly expensive) since you don't really have any edge other than your human intellect, neither in manpower, experience nor equipment. That's one reason I didn't consider retreat. The other is that I was worried the AI would press the advantage and overwhelm the other city sectors, which would've landed me back on square one as far as Drassen's concerned. Coupled with the reinforcement mechanic, costs would continue to rise as I wore down the new garrison. The alternative would've been to leave Drassen entirely alone until I had the edge, which is fine but a bit gamey since it normally relies on the foreknowledge the game slaps you for going for that city (and only that city) first*.

*By default, recent builds of 1.13 generalize that behaviour, which I recommend disabling since it just kills the otherwise accepted "lead a major rebellion" playstyle.



Shadow's Enemy Profiles
Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #355107 is a reply to message #352100] Tue, 25 September 2018 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
Attention please! In GameDir 2446 I made Lev Arris' version 1 files for enemies and militia the default weapon progression. To me it was the best layout which makes sense for this backwater country and still brings more variety and fun than version 2.1.

As we already have multiple updated gear sets for mercs I didn't touch the merc layout. IMPs already had new item sets with sidearms and trait dependent weapons for some time.

Please try out the new weapon progression and provide feedback. If you absolutely want to go back to the old files - I made a backup of them in "Data-1.13\TableData\Inventory\Backup original Gun Choices". Just move those files up one level and you have the old data back.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #355377 is a reply to message #355107] Sun, 21 October 2018 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:154
Registered:January 2018
@ silversurfer

I'm looking forward to trying this change you instituted out, as Lev Arris' first version did intrigue with the Warsaw Pact Ammo and Weapons vs 5.56 etc. Not unlike my memories of Urban Chaos, which I hope one day to replay under v1.13 (please explain if how, since I'm semi-plastered right now, which is rare -- back pain and rib pain is massive, thus using it as pain relief).

But, and this is a big but, I want to ask you to consider a few things, and give me a sense of how this goes.

1) Have the Weapons available for either the MERCs we can hire (M.E.R.C. or A.I.M. been updated similarly)?

From what I can tell the answer is no (have not played such a version yet). If so, will we have enough ammo for the Beretta 93R or for the Ranger's Shotgun, or for your Type-85 SMG, etc. Right now a Marksman can get a .45 Rifle, forget the name, are they outclassed?

2) VERY IMPORTANT -- have you considered and updated the files as needed for those who DO NOT DROP ALL when ENEMIES ARE KILLED?

It seemed everyone was gung-ho about how it looks with enemies drop all. Well, I don't play drop all because I want to slowly gain weapons in small progressions as I go, and like the Pistol battles with weak M.E.R.C. mercs early on, where often, the shining best weapon for an inexperienced Merc in NCTH is surprisingly the Makarovs. Why? Because crouching is less useful for an inexperienced, inaccurate Merc than simply closing the difference in tiles and shooting more rounds that cost less AP from in close. One of the great things with the later (last 18 months worth of v1.13 versions) is that you can close in and shoot accurately from 3 or less hexes. All you need is to soften up the guy with a single hit (on at least customized Easy Difficulties) and you can get some experience for your Flo's etc, by moving in to 3 or less hexes and shooting to hit with Makarovs or other quick firing, low AP weapons. You only need one guy to prep the fool with a shot that creates a hit, damage to stamina, and some suppression. Otherwise it this no longer works at all, buy-bye stealing, buh-bye KOs, and buh-bye using the drop from the manifest only drops, which I use to slow progression and I use a slower 1/2 progression (slower) anyway, and I use basic Normal Bobby Ray's.

It is all fine and dandy to make changes for max Bobby Ray and max availability of Max Coolness Weapons, but make sure that the rest of the JA2 v1.13 flexibility, from using Militia, to using Pistols, still works. Otherwise, this is ramming people into a channel of one choice only, which means we might as well go back to old release 7609 and just upgrade the AI.

Is that clear enough? I like V1.13 because it provides MORE OPTIONS, not less. I think this will be okay. But I'm getting a bad feeling as to who are driving this nonsense, if it is nonsense, which I'll assume it isn't since SilverSurfer okayed on this, and he's not a nonsensical guy. But who the heck tested this out? I'm getting a bit nervous about all this.

Please also repeat what SCI EXE and DATA versions we need to play this right along with the new findings for last MERC fixed on various functions like Repairs, since those are KEY fixes I don't want to miss.

I personally loved pistols. I loved progression, please make sure, I don't have to throw a huge dictionary at you for catering to onely one faction of one sided idiocy on this. Now I'm a bit plastered, but I love this game. I'm depending on you SilverSurfer to protect options for the sake of us who are unrepresented. I use Flo and M.E.R.C. mercs to gain the advantage of numbers early on and use the prep rule to avoid interrupts and then gain XP so that the others can learn an experience level and begin to hit (which is what NCTH is all about by the way, Experience Level, which is ... well single sided, if I may be blunt.

Ok, back to getting semi-plastered, but I trust you SilverSurfer, don't leave pistoleers and progression meisters who want to learn how everything is cool as it improves, well, in the dust of forced progress.

Love you all for loving the game JA2 and v1.13 additions, but I'm hurting big-time thus have to go a bit numb and semi-coherent.

[Updated on: Sun, 21 October 2018 11:13]

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #355379 is a reply to message #355377] Sun, 21 October 2018 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
You can already try it, the latest SCI has the weapon list changes. For the "last merc" fixes you'll need to wait for the next SCI. This fix is in exe 8629 which isn't available yet in an SCI.

1) Merc profiles have been updated several times in the past. Almost all of them have item sets with at least a machine pistol, shotgun or SMG. Of course the better the weapons are the more expensive is the item set because prices are calculated from the set. You can still start with pistols only if you want, some mercs with ambidextrous trait have only pistol anyway because you can't dual fire shotguns. ;-)

2) I don't know what you mean. What is dropped by an NPC is decided randomly by the game when the NPC is created. Items get the "Do Not Drop" flag removed or they don't. If you have drop all enabled all items get this flag removed. The drop XMLs don't have specific items in them. They just define drop chances for certain item types. I didn't change any of that.
If you modified your game to only drop pistols you probably get less of them now.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: My Attempts at Re-Designing 1.13 Weapon Progression.[message #355386 is a reply to message #355379] Sun, 21 October 2018 22:35 Go to previous message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:154
Registered:January 2018
Ok, so the Drop List defines basically types to drop, for either Drop All or Non-Drop All, and then picks from the newly updated list a random selection. Did not know that.

Thanks for answer, I'm probably going to wait for 8629 then, as I've already seen the bug hit Hurl a couple times and others during repairs etc. I'm not sure if Patient works exactly right or Doctor when a single Paramedic or Doctor is trying to heal himself either.

But once Depri puts up that build, I'll start testing it with interest. I have not modified pistol drops.

Thanks again for answer. I was mainly worried about ammo availability for the starting Merc Weapons if the new Weapon List did not provide much of it, but since I now have Flugente's Merchants, it really doesn't matter, and I'm guessing enough 9mm, 45, etc drops that we'll be okay until I control Drassen.
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