Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » #JAFDEV » FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F
FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337202] Mon, 27 October 2014 12:12 Go to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Feedback and discussion topic for the Community Roll-out Plan for JA:Flashback. These are the main points that stood out from our QA with Thomas Lund, the CEO of Full Control, over Twitch, last night.



Quote:

Community Rollout Plan for JA:F


    Bear's Pit Quality Stamp
  • They need us, they want us to be part of the development. But on the other hand they also need a Quality Check filter between them and a tonne of user submissions, because they don't have like 20 people doing community management, just one. I offered Bear's Pit resources for that job and Thomas was both glad and generous enough to accept it. Will announce the plan for that soon.

    Priorities, priorities, priorities
  • So far they've been trying to establish by themselves the priorities for the game patches and development. This produced mixed results, as we know. They are willing to share with us their roll-out plans and the lists for the to-do features. If we can organize ourselves and give them proper feedback on what matters most for the players, Thomas said they're more than happy to focus on those parts, provided the community accepts the time costs and stands by them while they're working on what we wanted. More on that later.

    Localization teams
  • They are using a translation agency, but of course those guys aren't players and their translations sound off when inside the game - we need to organize some dedicated translation teams to go over those; they have so far Russian , German, Italian, French an Spanish localization projects going, but they said any other language is welcome. I'll need volunteers with a background in English translations that are JA:F players and are willing to help.

    Modding support
  • They're open to adding any tweaks and providing us with any tools that allow mods to be created; in that respect we're going to get their own weapon balancing spreadsheets that update all weapons and generate JSONs automatically, plus once they sort out the issues Unity has with memleaks, they will work on a way to open the client further to sound and 3d models modding.

    Usermade paid DLCs from top modders
  • They discussed (and got the OK) with both bitComposer and Steam my idea of having DLCs made by top modders as official paid game expansions, with "the lion's share of the profits going to the author"; again, they need Bear's Pit to act as a filter and QC, otherwise that idea can go sour fast with a lot of crap work being submitted. I am going to announce a detailed plan on how that's going to happen soon.

    Putting the soul back into JAF story
  • Regarding the lack of "soul" the JA:F is branded with, I've pitched the idea of JA2-like mini scenes with funny dialogues between Prince and his aides that highlight the player progress and are triggered at key game points; this is a major modding project and something I want see done very much so anyone that thinks has the humor and modding skills, please contact me; we need script writers, map editors, maybe even voice actors - or people that can do all of those at once. PS: this is a major community project that will immensely improve JA:F and I am prepared to negociate with FC a lucrative deal (Thomas said they're more than open to pay for large, vital contributions), but I need to know I first have the talent available. More on this later, too.



[Updated on: Thu, 01 January 2015 15:12]



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337204] Mon, 27 October 2014 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1435
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Well, the game barely even has an intro. That's something to work on.

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337205] Mon, 27 October 2014 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fallschirmjager

 
Messages:42
Registered:June 2005
Location: Darwin, Australia

Well there's probably not too much I can help with but I could write military documentation for greater immersion like an Intelligence report about the game world.

And could do voice acting if required.
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337207] Mon, 27 October 2014 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
derek

 
Messages:150
Registered:April 2010
- jumping over fences (like in orig JA2)
- walking backwards (like in orig JA2)
- walking sideways
- roofs and use of them (by player and AI)


I think that the biggest priority (for all pc gamers that are not a HC JA2 fans and who are now to JA series) is, as Slax already said, intro. And in-game anims. (voiceover also, but not gonna happen so...) And "normal" trading (screen like in JA2 or PoE or ME...) (but they already said they'll do that so...)
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337208] Mon, 27 October 2014 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3339
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
As far as the quality check goes...

There needs to be a clear and understandable documentation of what 'quality' means in this case. And there needs to be a clear definition of whom this team will consist of. As in persons that are declared before this starts. Everyone who posts here could be said to be a member of bp, that wont work. 'People who have an idea of what they are doing' sounds reasonable, but it is debatable on who that is. Especially since there's money involved.

Who will manage the inter-compatibility of said DLCs? Will FC do that?


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337209] Mon, 27 October 2014 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1435
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Back to the intro point...

Since we have people lining up for voice acting (guess I could whip something up too if needed), I'd like to suggest a proper Jagged Alliance 1 styled intro. Chopper flying in, introducing the island. Main job assignment + background information delivered by some swell looking talking heads (quality 2D animation would be SWEET!).

Maybe even a peek at the evil Prince, doing his evil deeds. Wink
(Oh yeah, I noticed a peak/peek typo in the IMP creation thing. Probably wanna fix that too.)

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337211] Mon, 27 October 2014 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Flugente
As far as the quality check goes...

There needs to be a clear and understandable documentation of what 'quality' means in this case. And there needs to be a clear definition of whom this team will consist of. As in persons that are declared before this starts. Everyone who posts here could be said to be a member of bp, that wont work. 'People who have an idea of what they are doing' sounds reasonable, but it is debatable on who that is. Especially since there's money involved.


Bear's Pit Quality Panel

There will be two-layers of QC before anything gets published as "Bear's Pit-approved" DLC:

1. A panel of a select few top modders and coders, which I reserve the right to pick.
2. A wider panel of special subscribers that will both vote and fund this community contest that ends as a "Bear's Pit Recommended Mod".

First group, as I said, it's by invitation only and won't require anything other than activity and a known track of awesomeness. I am going to consult with a few people around here before I announce my decision, of course. But we all pretty much know who I have in mind.

Second group will accessible to everyone who is willing to step up and finance the award so beside the DLC contract and the potential sales income, the winning project will also get a GUARANTEED cash award, even before gets on Steam. The sub will probably be a small amount, much less than some people have been donating out of pure generosity so far. A small portion of that will be used to keep the community going, paying for server and bandwidth. The largest chunk will be poured into the prize fund. Can't really go into details here, because it's just an idea atm. If we raise $5 / month that won't be enough for either server expenses or any decent prize.

Why have 2 groups? Because we need a balance. Both groups will have an equal vote of 49.5% on which project deserves the award. I will keep the 1% tie breaker vote, if that's needed. Hopefully the projects will be voted with a majority. This way, we exclude the possibility of top modders "fixing" the vote (not that I would suspect them to be capable of that, but for the outside public a seal of confidence is only worth if it's checked and double-checked).

Also, modders that are members of the panel are most likely be the first to have awesome DLCs ready. Voting on own work would seem fishy if there wasn't another independent panel to vouch for them.

So what will the members panel get in return for their money? Except deciding which mod gets to be featured as a DLC and a special status on the forum? First off, they get that awesome mod for free. I'll talk to FC about how exactly that will work without breaking any licensing rules. We are not selling mods here for profit, we're funding a prize. In theory, all mods should have a beta version submitted for approval to both panels, under NDA. So the panel members will get ALL THE DLCs for free, in beta stage at least. Might turn out to be a pretty cool deal to pay $1-2/month and get to play a bundle of DLCs worth 10-20x times that at least.

Quote:
Who will manage the inter-compatibility of said DLCs? Will FC do that?


Once the Bear's Pit award is given and the DLC winner is selected, it's a matter of a contract between FC and the mod creator. So as is the case for any contract, it's probably the responsability of the author to update his work. If he doesn't, FC will pull his mod from Steam when the new patches come and his revenue will stop flowing.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 October 2014 14:25] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337212] Mon, 27 October 2014 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Localization Teams

I have been working as a Romanian translator for Wargaming products for 2-3 years now. We have a team of 4 that's translating and proof-reading any patch or web banner they put out and. We used to be payed in symbolic "gold coins" (the ingame premium currency). In the later years, once WG went from a start-up to a very rich company, they started paying us a normal translation fee. In the case of Full Control I kinda expect the community to help them out of goodwill and proof-read the translations for free. But I have no clear view of how big this job is. For World of Tanks we have patches of 20k words sometimes - nobody would translate such a huge job for peanuts. If you feel a job is way too big to perform for free, tell me and I will make sure you can negociate a fee with FC.

Anyway, we need 2-3 people at least for each team that have experience with translating JA in different languages at least. For example, FC forgot to add Polish and Czech to their main localization project and we all know that those are huge potential fan-bases. If you think you can organize yourself in a minimal team, contact me and I'll make all arrangements you need.

Will my work be an included in the game or a mod?

You're of course free to make and distribute any voice/movie/etc mods for free, under your own name, on Steam workshop. Thomas promised to give us a tutorial on how we can do that even without an ingame modding interface. Since those will carry your name and your name only, you're the only one who needs to quality check them so they're out of the scope of this initiative. We'll still be happy to feature your work and promote it, as we do with any JA mod.

When it comes to projects that you want/think they're fit to go right into the main game, you will need to submit them to the Bear's Pit Panel I've talked before. Non-DLCs will not compete against DLCs, but will be approved/rejected by the same panels of modders and members.

Of course, you're free to pursue your own path and submit your work directly to FC, hoping they get to test it and put it in game. But in that case you need to prepare yourself for a long waiting que, since Andreas will most likely take a while to finish all the tasks he has before looking up your mod. You will have a chance, but you will eat into something FC lacks severely - TIME. Your choice.

How will you select the "veteran modders" panel?

1. they need to agree, since they'll be performing a community job for free.

2. they need to active in the community, because this will be an activity that requires active testing.

3. this will not be a honorary merit badge for past work; modders that have contributed in the past will not be included automatically if they're no longer active.

4. no matter how big is their talent, if they have a track record of being an asshole, they won't get in, because I do not want flamewars among panel members.

5. I will consult with my Bear's Pit staff, but the final decision will be mine and mine only.

6. Winners of the BP award will automatically be included in the modders panel, if they're not members already

Wait, so what if you have like 3 awesome submissions in one month?

The DLC projects will not complete against each other, they will be pushed toward publication based on favorable votes from both panels. If 3 projects get a 100% rating from both panels, we have 3 winners that split the prize and go talk to FC.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 October 2014 14:48] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337215] Mon, 27 October 2014 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWJunky

 
Messages:82
Registered:November 2012
Location: Austria
I did a little xml codding for JA 2 1.13. So I do have some sort of basic understandings of how things work. I mostly just did adjustments to my game, so I am no modder. However I have been working in IT project management for the past years and do have a lot of experience in coordinating. Plus I am bilingual German/English. Furthermore I am willing to invest some money in this because for one I think great things can become of this and second I am one of the biggest JA fans since the day it hit the market. I am not married and I have no kids, therefore I have a very valuable component called time to offer Wink. Boy, this sounds like I am trying to apply for a job offer hahah. No seriously, I am sure I can help in some way or another.
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337224] Mon, 27 October 2014 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@TWJ - there will be a place for EVERYONE that's willing to invest the most precious resource one has (more precious than money) - TIME. Money you make and lose, time it's the only thing in this world that once you spend it...poof...it's gone.

So hang in there, while we set this up, we clearly need more people like you.


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337237] Mon, 27 October 2014 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3339
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
One thought that just came to me... how are paid DLC's going to work? I mean, after FC are getting their asses kicked for the state the game is in, is it really believable that players would invest more hard cash into a game they currently find lacking?

Also, how would that technically work... per definition, user-made DLCs will consist of data anybody can edit. So what would stop someone from getting a paid DLC and then just posting that online for anybody to use? This is different from a exe modification, which you could verify (would not work offline though Wink ).


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337240] Mon, 27 October 2014 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3802
Registered:July 2009
Like any DRM-free content: Simple decency.


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337246] Mon, 27 October 2014 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Claudius

 
Messages:15
Registered:January 2004
Location: France
Things I can do :

- Mapping, slow learner but can manage. Did about 450 maps for my Neverwinter 2 campaigns Smile
- Scripting, more used to NWScript, but should be able to deal with LUA.
- Story telling and dialogs, probably my strongest point (see below)
- Translation to French. However I am a bit fed up with translations as my last two NWN2 campaigns and the one underway are bilingual French / English. They all have plenty of text and translating into a non native language is very very very difficult.

Things I cannot do at all:
- 3D modeling
- video
- sounds
- voice recording.

I must deal with a professional and family life, but also with a NWN2 campaign underway (finished at 85%) but ready to take part.

My NWN2 campaigns :

- A Slave's Destiny : French only, released in two parts, crusades and mysteries. About 40 hours of play.
- 16 Cygni : Bilingual, a blend of Sci-fi, history and fantasy, released in 3 parts. About 60 hours of play.
- Sarmates!, Bilingual, peplum and legends. About 34 hours of play. A Let's Play NWN2 Sarmates video is available.
One more is still underway for about the same extent as Sarmates!

All released campaigns were highly rated, always above 9.5 over 10.

Always dreamed to have a toolset as powerful as the NWN2 toolset on top of a JA world Smile

@Shanga, is it possible to rename my login to 'Claudius33' as I'm better known as Claudius33 on JAF forum and several NWN2 forums?



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337249] Mon, 27 October 2014 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWJunky

 
Messages:82
Registered:November 2012
Location: Austria
Flugente
One thought that just came to me... how are paid DLC's going to work? I mean, after FC are getting their asses kicked for the state the game is in, is it really believable that players would invest more hard cash into a game they currently find lacking?

Also, how would that technically work... per definition, user-made DLCs will consist of data anybody can edit. So what would stop someone from getting a paid DLC and then just posting that online for anybody to use? This is different from a exe modification, which you could verify (would not work offline though Wink ).


I think the best way to stop people from downloading illegally is by building a trusting fan base. I think the Bears pit has done a very good job this past decade. Furthermore a game that gets new content or improvements on a regular basis makes it also unattractive, because those new versions have to be cracked uploaded and re downloaded by the users. All a very time consuming process and not worth the while for just saving a couple of bucks.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 October 2014 23:05] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337250] Mon, 27 October 2014 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Flugente
One thought that just came to me... how are paid DLC's going to work? I mean, after FC are getting their asses kicked for the state the game is in, is it really believable that players would invest more hard cash into a game they currently find lacking?

Also, how would that technically work... per definition, user-made DLCs will consist of data anybody can edit. So what would stop someone from getting a paid DLC and then just posting that online for anybody to use? This is different from a exe modification, which you could verify (would not work offline though Wink ).


Like DRM has stopped piracy any time soon. If they want to steal it, they will... like they steal any $50 DLC from EA. I don't think there's any way to prevent it, DRM or not. It needs to have a minimal price, so 99% of the Steam users can buy it with spare change they get from selling trading cards (at one point I had like 3 euro from that in my Steam Wallet). Then nobody will bother looking for a pirated version, except people who wouldn't have paid a cent anyway. Well, if you plan to remake JA2 Urban Chaos on JAF, then ok, you can ask a bit more. But normal DLCs imho should be cheap. Would help drive JAF sales too and while won't make any modder rich enough to retire, I think you could earn a thousand or two for your efforts. Or at very least a few hundreds (which is more than you'll get from donations in a year anyway).

As for 1st question, 99.99999% feedback on Steam was "the game sucks, but if the Bear's Pit guys get their hands on it, it might have a chance". Or "forget this game until Bear's Pit modders get to fix it". And so on and so forth. If I wasn't seeing these reactions I would not have suggested this to Lund.

DLCs + community content directly plugged into game (voices, scenes, sectors, etc) can boost JA:F like there's no tomorrow. At least that's my belief.

@Claudius - there's an option in your profile (My Stuff). Request a name change and I'll approve it.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 October 2014 23:45] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337253] Tue, 28 October 2014 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWJunky

 
Messages:82
Registered:November 2012
Location: Austria
couldnt agree with you more shanga. A dlc for 3.99 is not going to motivate anybody to steal it. I think that steam, as a platform, has made acquiring games so easy, that piracy has gone down because of it. Hell, since i have steam and dont rip anything anymore Wink.

we should focus on releasing small bits at a time. small but with very good quality so we build trust. its really sad but a bunch of my friends are also hardcore JA fans but did not buy JAF because they got burned by the bad quality of bit composer, peter games and co. I think that is why this game got bad funding to begin with and i mean I cant blame them for not investing. The quality isnt exactly great.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 01:01] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337269] Tue, 28 October 2014 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
falconsfury

 
Messages:16
Registered:March 2012
Hey guys, I am a long time fan of the JA series.

Having played 1.13 from here very often, I was super excited for JA:F.

I supported the kickstarter, got the beta and was really let down by what I was seeing.

In fact, I havent even played the game since beta.

I wanted to say that as just a regular fan and supporter, I am extremely excited to see the "community" of JA take over this game and really make something of it.

IF there is anything a regular, non-programmer like me could do, please keep me / us in the loop. I am sure there are many people like me who want to see a JA 3.0 but cant contribute the coding skills to make it happen.

Money, time, testing, pats on the back.... whatever you guys need please just ask. I'd gladly put more money into this project knowing you guys are now directly involved.

Lets get this new "campaign" to fix JA:F sent out to all the registered members too (forum mail? newsletter?) I didnt know anything was happening with JA:F till I wandered over here to look at the new JA 1.13 patch...

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 08:54] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337271] Tue, 28 October 2014 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
patgarret77
Messages:2
Registered:October 2014
Hi guys, I'm also a long time fan of the series and I can, maybe, contribute.

I work as level designer and "storyteller" (I do dialogues, texts and stories) for a newborn italian team (published by Slitherine) working on strategic games ported from boardgames.

Feel free to contact me to get more info and assess the possibility of working together.

Cheers

Davide
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337272] Tue, 28 October 2014 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:307
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
@falconsfury
You should give a try to JA:F now, a lot has changed since beta. And don't stop at the first island, try to play further, the game grows on you, really.

Communicating the coming of JA:F through mail, newsletter or any intrusive way was discussed on the forum, when the KS started. But it was rejected. The reason is more or less that this is a forum, where you come and get what you seek, but not a spam box.
Since then, Shanga created a facebook page (where he is very active) and other communitation media, so if someone wants to keep informed on JA universe, he can just suscribe to them.
The old timers may miss some new stuff, like JA:F. Too bad, but they didn't sign for spam, did they?
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337274] Tue, 28 October 2014 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWJunky

 
Messages:82
Registered:November 2012
Location: Austria
@shanga: I think we should post something in the steam forum. Like an official statement for the bears pit. Or even better through the devs. Announcing that the Bears Pitt is getting involved. The only thread I found on the steam forum was from some user who posted your roll out plan.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 16:16] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337277] Tue, 28 October 2014 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Grim - I did not want to use the email db to ask for money to support JA:F. But this is another issue. This is a chance for any BP talent to both contribute and make a name for himself in the gaming industry. I think everyone would appreciate being notified.

So I am very much considering putting together a newsletter to send to all members. But since there are 11k people here, I want to be ready with all details when we do that. Have the forum infrastructure ready. Have all the tools from FC. Workshop working. You don't call on 11k people and tell them "guys, we'll have something for you...but now now... a bit later...". It would be like sounding the fire alarm because you know one day your office will catch fire because of reasons.

When all the above work, I am ready to announce the Roll-out Plan to the world.

Same with Steam forums.I don't mind people talking about this. But I want the infrastructure ready first. First let the buzz go around and make people interested. Then we go full tilt.

PS: As a side joke... I was so tempted to reply to this "let's NOT do a Full Control kickstarter..."...LOL...

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 12:54] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337283] Tue, 28 October 2014 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b15h09
Messages:4
Registered:January 2012
Glad to see some excitement to make lemonade out of this. I'm not much of a modder, but will try to throw a few dollars towards the prize when I can.
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337291] Tue, 28 October 2014 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:307
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
This high level relationship between quality modding and FC is rather unique.
Does it mean FC could provide even deeper access to the game "engine" for some projects or modders?
This could be a major break in, one of which i was dreaming about during the kickstarter when several known modders were mentionned to "join" the project.
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337292] Tue, 28 October 2014 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Grim - i think it's a matter of trust for them too. Once they realize the full potential of what a good mod can do, they'll scramble for solutions to let moddders even deeper.

Ofc, where they're not legally tied up by bitComposer. But I think we have enough weight to put pressure on bC too. From my talks with them they're pretty frustrated they had to take the blame for Coreplay's failures, despite the fact that Coreplay took their money, failed to listen to their production plan and then delivered a bad product. So they wouldn't mind giving FC the support on this community project and adding a bit of positive karma to their name.


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337308] Tue, 28 October 2014 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
easterngames

 
Messages:28
Registered:April 2011
Location: Pennsylvania , USA
I have always tried to put forth the idea that modders tend to as good if not better work then the original programmers. I probably have a dozen or two games that are made playable through unofficial patches and mods. I won't even begin to mention the hundreds, if not thousands, of hours I have played JA2 because of 1.13. As far as I know only one game ever went with the "make money from modders" route, and that was UFO: extraterrestrials. They released a gold version of the game with many mods included, albeit mods that are trimmed down to avoid lawsuits due to intellectual property conflicts.

I actually talked to several game companies in forums and emails as to why they don't officially use modders work, especially when it patched based. The answer in the short was we would if we could. Mostly they said it has to with contract and legal issues.

These broke down to the following reasons:

-A game company that didn't own the engine said it had to do with payments to the game engine owner and to rules about changing the underlying code.

-Another said it had to with "Chain of custody" on the work in the mod. Using John Smiths mod means they have to be certain John Smith really made it, and it wasn't really made by his friend John Doe, or stolen off a minor mostly unknown forum. They said they could theoretically pay John Smith and have John Doe or a dozen John Doe's sue them days, weeks, or even years later. When something is made in house, they know who wrote it, and have protections if an employee were to steal someone else's work.

-Another common response was the work that would be involved checking, verifying, beta testing, etc every mod that was submitted to them. But looks like having Bear's Pit run blocker would solve this issue.

So all that being said, I am super stoked in a million ways you folks here at the Bear's Pit want to try to turn JA:F into a worth game. (Not that it isn't worthy by itself, its just no JA2 1.13). but I do have some questions, which may seem like I am wet blanket, but they are serious questions and opinions.


1) what is to stop the game turning into a nickel and dime death-a-thon on Steam?

A true story is last week I was about to buy a game on steam. It ads caught my attention. The gameplay seemed like it was interesting. I went to ad it to the cart, and noticed it had an 'ADD ALL DLC' to cart at the same time. It looked like there was maybe 3 or 4 DLC's, but no. The full list was dozens. Some $60+ total just for the DLC, all on a game that originally cost $30. 50 cents to add a cloak on one character, A dollar to add 5 weapons, $10 to add a new area, etc etc. I unchecked the buy it, and exited that store page. while some of their DLC might have been worth it too much of it was nickel and diming garbage. Unfortunately I like to have everything there is to have a for a game, and I know a lot of people are like me. While the constant mini DLC is not a death sentence for people that get in on the game on the ground floor, people that buy into it later in the game freak when they realize how much it will cost them now (Research and read an article about the Downfall of World of Warcraft with more details about this effect).


2) A follow up to this is how will the eventual "Gold Edition" or DLC bundles be handled?

Because eventually a DLC heavy game has to condense itself down. Mostly to try to stave off the sticker shock of buying into the game and getting all the available DLC for a new buyer. If the original modder was getting say $1 for their mod on everyone sold, when it gets bundled down with other DLC and the base game, and is all sold for 1/3 of the original price each, do they get the $.33 still, or has rights to owner ship reverted to the game company after a set time? A legal issue would be Modder A who made a killer mod and Modder B who made fluff, both who were getting a Dollar and now both want the same share. But Modder A's work is really helping to sell the bundle while Modder B, who sold 3 copies of his DLC by itself, wants an equal share of the bundled price.


3) It probably hasn't been decided yet, but what will be the dividing line from not enough content to be a DLC and enough content to be DLC?

I mean like someone may do a mod with 10 new guns, and in fact this is destined to happen. Is 10 guns really enough, or would 20 guns be required, or would that sort of thing not even be allowed. it really not much content to rewrap old gun imagines/data and give it a new name. One of the things that made 1.13 irresistible was the never ending pile of guns poured into the game, even though many are identical to others for the most part. Another problem is modding a gun already in game, making a variant of say the M-16 modding existing game assets (or worse assets of another modder)and putting that forth as their own work.


4) Who is responsible for ensuring copyrights are not infringed on? The modder, Bear's Pit panel, or the game company?

An example is the only mod I know of that is coming out already. The one that renames weapons back to their real world names. Which wasn't in the game for copyright reasons. In most subcontracted business relationships, and that is the closet thing I can find to compare to this modder/game company union, has the subcontractor responsible for following all the laws and rules and is responsible for the work and its effects. So unless the company specifically states otherwise in a contract, an unnoticed copyright infringement that leads to a lawsuit would fall squarely on the modders head. Same with anything slanderous or Defaming. (See news about Manual Noriega suing a game company.)



Well that's about that for this posting. I really want this project to work out, as it could help a lot of smaller game companies make amazing products if the logistics can be worked out. I also drool over the idea of JA:F being made into a time gobbling daemon like 1.13 is.

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337316] Tue, 28 October 2014 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@easterngames - Very interesting post. I'll do my best to answer your worries

1) Nickel & Dime DLCs

While a company with a manager trained @ same school as the EA guys might think that's a good idea, I don't like selling nicely wrapped hot-air... and I think I speak for 99% of the people in this community. We have a huge history of releasing mods for free and we do it because we like to change how the game works and enjoy it more. And then we want to share that fun with our friends. Me, Grim and others have already released a handful of mods for JA:F already. The thought of asking for money for a Minigun or a custom IMP makes me laugh. And this is why worried Thomas too, that they will get an avalanche of mini-mods that are 5 minutes work and people would expect 5 euro for them. That's why I came up with the idea of TWO panels, not even one, that can vote on the submissions. And that's why, in the end, I retained the tie-breaker vote.

So no, Bear's Pit won't vouch for crap DLCs. At least what comes from us will be fully worth the money you pay.

2) DLC bundles

My honest opinion on old mods would be that after a set time they should become free. But then, after they pass our QC, it's all about a private contract between the modder and FC. I will sure give my 2c to Thomas Lund and try to discuss the best ways to make sure nobody feels ripped-off. I will talk it over with the BP modders panel and see if everyone agrees with this. If not, as I said, it's a commercial contract in which BP no longer has a stake. But I am pretty sure Thomas will think of a solution that does't compromise the whole project cause he understands pretty well that the future of JA:F comes from mods.

3) Small or big DLC

There will be two kinds of works, as I already said. Stuff that helps the game directly, like a complete professional remake of all voices. That kind of modding won't be sold separately, it will be integrated, if FC likes it, directly into the game. And the authors will remunerated directly by FC.

And there will be DLCs. Some will be huge, like for example a JA2UC sequel. Some will be smaller, like a pack of 10 new maps on a new island tied with the story (making a proper map takes about 3 weeks, so a 10 map pack is not something easy to make). Some mods will change the mechanics of the game and a complete new weapon pack, but not 10 new gun PNG images. When I say a new weapon pack I mean 10 new 3d models, fully skinned and balanced and preferably that add new twists to the gameplay. If someone comes and says "Hey, I just made 10-20 new 3d gun models, fully skinned and working", we will certainly look at his work.

So I have no problems with 10 new guns and smaller DLCs, and I guess the panels won't either. But my secret wish is that there will be a true hardcore competition between modders and only the best of the best will come through.

4. Copyright

Bear's Pit is only checking build quality and how much a mod fits the game and gives a recommendation. As I already said, we will take no part in the actual contractual arrangement once we send a modder to FC. To answer your question, from my experience with Strategy First, a usual publishing contract exonerates the publisher of any fault and potential legal issue. And the modder takes full responsability. Anyway, after our quality check, nothing says Full Control is obliged in any way to publish the DLC if they find it unfit or with legal issues.

If he wins the BP internal competition, the modder will anyway get a prize. That prize is both an incentive (if he fails to reach an agreement with Full Control, he still gets something). But also a warning that we will take our job very seriously and give money out just to anyone who thinks he's smart and can buy a $5 weapon at Unity Asset Store then resell that to Full Control and walk away with BP money too. If that happens, we failed, but that guy is done with modding. He'll get $100-200 from us, but he'll never get near this community again.

It will be clearly stated on our modding recommendations and in our panel guides that mods that circumvent copyrights (such as my "Proper Weapons Mod" that renames the JAF weapons back to original names) ARE NOT ACCEPTED AS DLCs. And we will advise the modder to publish his mod for free, to avoid any legal issues.

Plus, as a final safeguard, anyone submitting mods or being part of the panels will have to sign and agree either to an NDA (the panel) and a waiver of responsability. We're not 10 year old kids here, you know, being scammed of gold in WoW. We're all adults and if someone wants to be "funny", he might find himself on the nasty side of a lawsuit.

FINAL THOUGHT: THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FREE MODS @ BEAR'S PIT.

That's something we'll never give up. As a matter of fact, a history of free mods published might weight a lot when we consider a modder's work.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 23:17] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337317] Tue, 28 October 2014 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Quote:
-Another said it had to with "Chain of custody" on the work in the mod. Using John Smiths mod means they have to be certain John Smith really made it, and it wasn't really made by his friend John Doe, or stolen off a minor mostly unknown forum. They said they could theoretically pay John Smith and have John Doe or a dozen John Doe's sue them days, weeks, or even years later. When something is made in house, they know who wrote it, and have protections if an employee were to steal someone else's work.


in 2004 Strategy First approached the team behind JA2 Urban Chaos with a contract proposal. They wanted to sell JA2UC with JA2 as a DLC. I think they offered us something like $1 / CD. We had the contract analysed by lawyers and rejected it. Why? Because JA2UC was a community mod, done with the tools provided by 10-20 people, based on the hex research of 10-20 other people and included assets and creations from another 100 people. Nevermind the beta testers or other people indirectly involved. So yes, for a mod there's certainly a problem with the chain of ownership. But I still don't see why companies would be afraid to publish mods. In the SFI contract all fault was ours if we failed to ensure we had proper copyrights. We weren't sure of that and we rejected it.

On the other hand the russians who made Wildfire went ahead. And signed a deal with SFI. I have heard there's a juicy scandal with that, but in the end, there's JA2 Wildfire - out there on Steam. It was possible. We're not reinventing the wheel here, just trying to do it properly now so the next MOD Squad doesn't work for 3 years on a mod without seeing a cent for their work, unless they want specifically to release it for free.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 October 2014 23:26] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337332] Wed, 29 October 2014 05:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magicandmadness

Messages:3
Registered:April 2014
Location: U.S.A.
Love your guys ideas. As someone who only dabbles in coding on Arma, I can't really be of much assistance. As a gamer though, I feel the game needs an immersive intro. The tutorial as an intro is kind of meh. Also, who doesn't love more mercs!?!? A merc pack dlc could be cool. Doesn't even have to all be hire at will on the recruitment screen. Could be in game mission style. Find a drunk Larry on a beach passed out. Find Wolf doing "wolverine" training seminars with the locals(would make sense for the small cold war vibe). And the "elliot" type scenes would be genious Shanga.
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337335] Wed, 29 October 2014 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Just as promised by Thomas, Roman shared with us their weapon balancing spreadsheet. I made a copy and a view-only link to it. I advise anyone interested to do the same.

http://i.imgur.com/teznLUY.jpg


VIEW ONLINE:
FC Weapon Spreadsheet


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337336] Wed, 29 October 2014 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
svtlio

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2014
Hello Bears

When reading this i understand the top goal of this project is boosting JAF sales.
To my understanding in order for sales/community/JA to grow you need a influx of new players , and it doesnt matter wheter they are newbies or old farts Very Happy. Judging from reception steam, FC forum , metacritic , reviews ( or their lack of ) , the game is in a bad place right now.
My opinion is that best thing that can help the game sales even half a year down the road, is the good reputation that the Bears have. This ofc will come in the form of mods ( fixes,ballances,improvements,etc). Now i cant tell wheter or not this shoud be all free , cuz you know , if there are 4 people in the room there will be 8 opinions.
My suggestion is this
Why not make a Most Wanted list.
Example: bellow your 2 panels guys there to be list or two , periodicaly , with stuff thats possible to mod. And let the community vote, and by that i mean , the average Joe like myself, cuz in the end the stuff that is charged for is for all of us. Also want to clarify that this list is to be paralel to to the panels. What i suggest is in no way to be understood as " i like this , you go made that for me " and stuff like that. I know that modders mod in their free time and or as hobby/for fun, and no one can forse them to do anything they dont want. The list can be used only for to know what people think/what/or willing to pay for , and only then if modders decide to do some of that stuff , or that stuff is bigger mby they team up etc. Example is the JAF:UC you suggested.What i have in mind is something somthing like: JAF:UC remake 1:1 + top mods + most wanted = somthing that can realy change your experience of the game. Lets say it the Grizzly package Smile , i will be more than happy to even pay 20-25 euro for that. Again just a suggestion.

And also even if there is money involved you must never allow this place to be associated with the "big bad dev" point of view , cuz that is a very common view these days, and we all know that bad rep spreads like a plague. You must remain allways the good guys:
-Damn i fell cheated/JAF sucks/i dont like this and that!
-Dont worry , have no fear the Bears are here Smile Go there , introduce yourself to the nice people, and with the right mods this can become your dream game.
And not:
-Damn i fell cheated/JAF sucks/i dont like this and that!
-Well there is a way of improving, buuuttttt... you will have to pay more.
OK thats from me . Hoped you guys understood me correctly , just wanted to help with an idea Smile
See you around , and good luck with the project and all the best to the guys in it Smile



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337337] Wed, 29 October 2014 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sooner

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2004
Location: Broken Arrow, OK
I see a fair number of issues with monetizing the mods, but the biggest two are when it comes to licensing and what others have mentioned as the chain of custody.

If I add in the HK 416 14" as a weapon, technically that means I need approval to use not only the name but also the likeness from HK right? I know it happens all the time in mods without that approval but since no money is changing hands I think that is overlooked the vast majority of the time. I am all for the mods, hell I spent time creating a tool in an effort to make weapon mods easier for the average Joe. I just see the monetization as a very slippery slope.
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337338] Wed, 29 October 2014 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@svtlio - we'd like each modder to come up with his own idea. Only real competition can generate quality. We do not want to direct or interfere with the creative process. But as a guideline for modders, yes, having a community wide poll on what issues are most vital are going to happen. They will help both Full Control (that will focus on fixing those first) and modders.


@Sooner - if you want to mod in something like a Heckler&Koch weapon, no, you cannot monetize on the name. And you probably need to artistically interpret the gun image too. Still, the issue with weapons is with weapon names, not image, because images (unless you use a real picture) are artistic impressions, not real world copies.

In general, a DLC can safely consist of:
- own music and voices
- own written stories and quests
- own maps made with JAFEditor
- tweaks to JSON files
- own 3d models, skins (not bought from a 3rd party, unless you have a license to resell)
- own PNG graphics such as portraits
- own asset Unity assets
- own Unity scripts

With the above, using no external resources, you can pretty much recreate JA2 on JAF platform.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 October 2014 18:48] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337339] Wed, 29 October 2014 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CaRNi4

 
Messages:45
Registered:August 2001
Location: NL
I just went through the spreadsheet. Who came up with this malarkey? Smile

Quote:
From quick research it looks like a 5.56mm round typically has a longer range than 7.62mm

[Updated on: Wed, 29 October 2014 19:11] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337340] Wed, 29 October 2014 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Dunno, it's just a comment. What's wrong with that assumption about the damage drop-off (that's where the comment is)? From what I read (not an expert, I admit). Pretty much every resource you can find tells you the same.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=520388

Quote:
5.56 (vs. 7.62x39):
-More accurate round (around 600-800 meters)
-Lighter weight
-Relies on high velocity to fragment or tumble round into target
-Higher velocity (62 gr FMJ bullet 3,100 ft/s)

7.62x39 (vs. 5.56)
-Less accurate, less range (around 300 meters)
-Heavier weight
-More bullet mass, able to shoot thru concrete cinderblocks
-Lower velocity (123 gr FMJ bullet 2,400 ft/s)


If you have a better source or direct experience, would be interesting to hear it.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 October 2014 19:14] by Moderator



Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337341] Wed, 29 October 2014 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CaRNi4

 
Messages:45
Registered:August 2001
Location: NL
Ah, they weren't talking about 7,62 nato...
Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337342] Wed, 29 October 2014 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3802
Registered:July 2009
The whole damage dropoff doesn't make any sense the way it's done though. It should never drop to zero unless we are talking about penetration. Shooting someone with a 12g slug on 15 tiles and getting zero effect is neither cool nor realistic, it's stupid.


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337343] Wed, 29 October 2014 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sooner

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2004
Location: Broken Arrow, OK
Speaking of map editing, does the asset bundle that is linked with the beta editor post have all the assets from the release version in it or would I need to pull those out of the current steam files? Anyone know off hand?

[Updated on: Wed, 29 October 2014 20:26] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337344] Wed, 29 October 2014 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@Sooner - that editor is outdated, we are waiting for a new one with new assets. So no.

@Depri - it all comes from their kinda "artistic" interpretation of muzzle velocity and effective ranges. You're right, a bullet doesn't just drop 3 meters away from the gun, even if it's a pew pew pistol. But that's why they shared them spreadsheets. So we can make our own Weapons.json. They're supposed to generate it automatically with some script, not clear how yet.

@Sgt_Rock - no, I think it was more a comparison between M16 bullet and AK-47 and how its behaves at range.


Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337346] Wed, 29 October 2014 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CaRNi4

 
Messages:45
Registered:August 2001
Location: NL
I made this spreadsheet back in the day for JA:BiA. I used all kind of stats too calculate damage and range for all the weapons. Might be useful for a mod.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/191xwabdB1sMQZk2t73UDOiPpRnZ8zUIrgEcIO_uzq_I/edit?usp=sharing

//Edit

Short explanation of how it works.
The damage formula is in column 'N'.
I calculate the muzzle energy for the weapons in column 'E'(these are foot pounds).
I divided this by 45 to get a number that fits the games damage model. To this I added the caliber of the weapon(in mm) divided by 5.
This way I could use the same formula for all the weapons, from pistol to sniperrifle.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 October 2014 22:38] by Moderator

Re: FEEDBACK - Community Rollout Plan for JA:F[message #337347] Wed, 29 October 2014 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Shanga

 
Messages:3507
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Sgt_Rock
I made this spreadsheet back in the day for JA:BiA. I used all kind of stats too calculate damage and range for all the weapons. Might be useful for a mod.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/191xwabdB1sMQZk2t73UDOiPpRnZ8zUIrgEcIO_uzq_I/edit?usp=sharing


Saved this too in my Google Drive, very useful to have. Many thanks!


Previous Topic: JAF Weapon Rebalance - THE MASTER PLAN
Next Topic: URGENT - Need a compilation of core modding tools/guides/functions
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Jun 25 05:05:47 EEST 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01408 seconds