Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » Idea: Outside Organizations (Idea: Outside Organizations)
cloud107.png  Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339565] Sat, 21 February 2015 20:34 Go to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I find myself having a lot more ideas than time to implement them, so here's one of those. Perhaps someone else might want to do this, or perhaps this could be worth talking over.

In the current campaign, the few quests that we have are very straightforward. While there are several solutions to most quests (since in this game we can just gun down anybody, that is always a solution), most of the time there is a single one that is ideal. Not delivering the food to the rebels does not give you anything, not throwing Doreen out does not give you anything etc..
I like it in a game when the choices I make really are choices - when either solution has a consequence beyond 'quest NPC that appears in this quest only is dead'.
Also, considering we are waging a full-scale civil war, you'd think that at least someone from the outside would be interested, and have interests there.

What I propose is to implement outside organizations. These have default relations to us, which will be altered by the (quest-) decisions we do throughout the game. Being on good or bad terms with an organizations can help or hinder us. It would even be possible for relations to be affected by our relations to other organizations - like, say, 2 rival organizations of which we can only be allied to one. per time.

Possible organizations (which is a very broad term as you'll see) with ways to get on their good/bad side, possible ramifications:
  • Ira (and, depending on your cynical political view on the world and Arulco, common sense) suggests that the US is propping up the Deidranna regime. Considering the regime is in power for about a decade, based in middle america and the US hasn't intervened in any way, it's likely they'd like it to stay... which makes them antagonistic to you. Piss them off enough, and they will feel the need to do something about you...
    Expropriating Doreen, a US entrepreneur, is a grave violation of international treaties.
    Doreen is a US citizen. Killing her is clearly a terror act.
    Hurting of possibly even killing the Kulbas is clearly a terror act. It does not matter who kills them - you removed them from Chitzena by force, and you are thus responsible for their wellbeing.
    Recruiting convicted criminals makes you more despicable. This can both apply to Shank & Dynamo as well as Reuban and Jimmy.
    Working together with internationally sought terrorists (Slay)? You know how those people end, do you?
    Recruiting barely concealed russian soldiers won't make them friendlier.
    Close relations to socialist states are suspicious.
    Close relations to criminal organisations are damning.
    Evacuating the Kulbas out of a warzone will positively surprise the US.
    The resurfacing of an aid worker thought lost is inconvenient, but better than nothing.

    If you are on good terms with the US, the US will do nothing. That's the best you can hope for.
    On bad terms, they could press for sanctions against you. Perhaps you will then have to look for other buyers for your silver, resulting in -x% mine income... perhaps BR deliveries would be delayed. Restricting MERC & AIM would be logical, but absolutely game breaking.
    Direct military intervention would be absolutely game-breaking, so I guess not. I see no way the player could realistically survive the US attacking. Nope.
  • Russia is only present in Arulco by a few mercenaries it sent there to train the Arulco army (Conrad & Iggy), possibly to not entirely leave the country to the US. Their main interest here was mainly to force the US to commit resources themselves.
    Killing Conrad & Iggy will make them hostile to you nonetheless.
    By recruiting Conrad & Iggy, this could actually put them on the winning side... that's a bonus.

    On very good terms, they might use their veto power to block US sanctions against you.
    On bad terms, they might join sanctions against you.
  • The eastern-european mafia. Kingpin is bound to have outside connections, no?
    Any move against Kingpin is a move against the mafia. They dislike having to replace their people.
    Getting on good terms with Kingping gets you on good terms with the too.

    On good terms, they might find a way to give you a small discount at your favourite mob-based weapon dealer.
    On bad terms, Tony might demand a risk surcharge.
    On very bad terms... well, the mafia might have more than just 6 hitmen, no? Who knows, they might even send more than one per time.
  • The southernamerican socialist state of, I don't know, Venezuela would like to see the capitalist, american puppet Deidranna disempowered sooner than later. Thus they are in principle very friendly to you, altough all these foreign capitalist mercenaries are worrying.
    Recruiting the rebels is definitely positive.
    Completing the food quest shows your commitment to the people.
    Expropriating Doreen, who is all but a slaver, and giving production facilities back to the people is the right revolutionary spirit.
    Liberating those imprisoned by the regime is positive.
    Marrying women off against their will is a troubling development.
    Killing an entire extended farmer family is very troubling, and shows you are still bound to business interest.
    Hiring outside mercenaries, who work for money and not for the cause, is bad
    Bringing in masses of outside footsoldiers (Kerberus) might derail the revolution.
    Close relations to capitalist states are suspicious.

    On good terms, they might occasionally offer you free but inexperienced volunteers (green militia).
  • The WHO is involved in Arulco due to the cathastrophic health system. They are grateful if you help them, but won't tolerate human rights violations.
    Helping the few local doctors earns their goodwill.
    Combating disease and curing the population helps tremendously.
    Attacking hospitals, their staff and patients is a human rights violation.
    Beheading people in the streets? Executing civilians because you suspect them to be a 'terrorist' without trail? What kind of monster are you?

    On good terms, they might occasionally send you spare medical supplies.
    On bad terms, their disease info service costs a lot more.
  • Interpol is looking for some well-known terrorists in Arulco, and welcomes any help in that regard.
    Having terrorists brought to justice (with proof!) is a good thing.
    Killing their contacts, however, isn't.
    Recruiting those terrorists instead is unacceptable.

    On good terms, they might give you some intel... and reveal the location of all enemy generals on the map. Because they probably committed war crimes or sth.
    On bad terms, they... hmmm... put you on their wanted list. Not that it matters in Arulco (does it?).
  • The catholic church, while not as powerful as they once were (thank god for that!), still have a lot of money an influence...
    Stealing from their church, damaging their property, or attacking their members is frowned upon.
    They only know you from Father. Help him, and he'll put in a good word for you
    (New quest solution idea) A relic like the chalice should be in the hands of the church.

    Hmm. I got nothing here.
  • The WWF (no, not that one) would like you to not eradicate endangered species, thank you.
    I said not eradicate. How thick are you?
    And no, trading animal parts is also bad.

    On bad terms... I don't know. They start a twitter campaign against you?
  • (AIMNAS-only) Perhaps some modder might place a drug farm in one of his maps. Arulco is pretty far off, labour is cheap... a drug cartel might have a factory here.
    Wiping out the entire cartel's Arulco branch might, ahem, sour the relations.
    (Possible optional quest idea) The cartel might contact you after taking over their lab and offer you a deal: you operate the lab from now on and protect it, and they might look past your previous actions (what else are they going to do anway?). Perhaps they even give you a part of the profits.

    There might even be additional work for a cartel to be done, which would alter other relations.

    On good terms, well, money.
    On bad terms, well, cartel hitmen.
So yeah. That's the raw idea. Feel free to discuss or implement happy



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339567 is a reply to message #339565] Sat, 21 February 2015 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Wow! Yes, these are all fantastic ideas to brainstorm and implement. I think you have most of them spot-on, or at least almost spot-on. For instance, off the top of my head I'd say that the mining interests are possibly controlled by USA & Canadian mining corporations, so capturing them definitely would put you on the bad side of the USA & Canada (Canada has a lot of mining for gold going on in Central America). Unless, of course, the Queen has nationalized the mining, in which case the corporations would contact you and want their lion's share of the profit.

As for Kingpin & Co. perhaps having Mercs like Vinny and Jimmy can give you an inside advantage there, even possibly a small percentage of the 'take' -- through staffing a criminal-type Facility in San Mona, or possibly a quest delivering weapons from San Mona to an airport.

I love these ideas of yours, yo!

EDIT: Oh, and the choice of delivering the Chalice should be double-edged. Deliver to Chitzena and piss off the Church, deliver to the Church and lose Global Loyalty.

[Updated on: Sat, 21 February 2015 20:56]





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Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339568 is a reply to message #339565] Sat, 21 February 2015 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jasmith

 
Messages:32
Registered:January 2013
Location: US
One idea from the backstory of UB. As you take mines and territory from the Queen, Ricci Corp. (who had the contract to run the mines, and probably serves as the conduit for American contractors and weapons to enter Arulco and Tracona to the north) starts sending more weapons and mercs to aid the Queen (one possible explanation for the difficulty increase over time).

Maybe when you annoy the US they send some small, covert, and deniable groups of special forces or mercs south out of Tracona to cause trouble. These can show up as random patrols of 4-6 blackshirts in the northern parts of the country (threatening Omerta, Drassen, Chitzena, and the northern SAM sites) or more assassins showing up in the militia (or something else).

This would let the US take active military actions when they get really, really annoyed with you, but avoid any game-breaking amphibious invasions. Any thoughts?

Edit: Second idea. What if we keep a tally of the things you've done that annoy various legitimate groups (US, Russia, WHO, WWF, Catholic Church, etc) and start increasing sanctions when you pass certain thresholds? You won't lose funding just because you kill some bloodcats, but if you wipe them out, harm civilians, and impede medical care you start to feel the sanctions bite (unless the US or Russians are willing to sanction them because of really amazing relations with you). The news site you created could give updates of who is calling for sanctions and show some UN vote tally showing how close you are to getting in real trouble.

[Updated on: Sat, 21 February 2015 21:14]

Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339571 is a reply to message #339568] Sat, 21 February 2015 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
This would let the US take active military actions when they get really, really annoyed with you, but avoid any game-breaking amphibious invasions. Any thoughts?


Having the USA invade is end-of-game. But . . . basically, along with your idea of covert squads infiltrating and causing trouble it could escalate to an airstrike or three and not be game-breaking. I really like the idea of having UN votes and news to keep the Player on top of how close to BIG trouble they are.

But when all is said and done, the time frame most probably precludes any major intervention by the USA or any other country.

Also, I don't see it as game-breaking to deny the Player some few Mercs from the A.I.M. & MERC rosters depending on their actions in-game. Of course, the operative word there is "few".




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Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339575 is a reply to message #339571] Sat, 21 February 2015 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
The problem with US covert squads is that there is no realistic need for the US to be covert in the first place. They have no reason to hide from the player, while the player has all reasons to hide from them. And if the player would dare to attack their forces, all hell would break loose. An US airstrike would simply eradicate an entire sector, without any chance to defend or retaliate. All you could do is move into the underground caves.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339576 is a reply to message #339575] Sun, 22 February 2015 01:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
The problem with US covert squads is that there is no realistic need for the US to be covert in the first place. They have no reason to hide from the player, while the player has all reasons to hide from them. And if the player would dare to attack their forces, all hell would break loose. An US airstrike would simply eradicate an entire sector, without any chance to defend or retaliate. All you could do is move into the underground caves.


I see what you're saying, and agree to a point. There would have to be political reasons involved that would keep USA interference to a minimum. What the USA does in the Middle East and Middle Asia it cannot do in Central America -- it's too close to home, politically. There won't be another Grenada, and even Grenada could only happen because of the trumped up charges (politics) against Cuban involvement. What the USA is doing, and has been doing, in El Salvador, Guatamala, Nicaragua, Mexico, Venezuela, et al, is all covert. Even now the political climate won't allow direct, overt military involvement. As for Arulco . . . news leaks of the Queen's biological WMD research, or even her repressive police state (killing the children of soldiers, for example) would squash any overt attempts to aid her. Also, there is the time factor -- it would take months of insurgency before overt involvement would take place. As well, if the USA is already involved in the Middle East and Middle Asia while all this in Arulco is happening . . . well, the USA doesn't have enough National Guard to send everywhere -- and the Guard is sent because we don't have a enough regular army to do what we're doing in the first place.

All that said, you bring up a tough point to counter. It would be better to just leave the USA and Russia out of it except for the political arena (news items), and possibly in sending aid in the way of cash & arms . . . either to the Queen or the Rebels, depending on the political climate. But CIA assassins are always a threat anywhere and anytime.




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Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339577 is a reply to message #339576] Sun, 22 February 2015 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jasmith

 
Messages:32
Registered:January 2013
Location: US
The last point, about assassins, is sort of what I was getting at. They're not hiding from the player, just the international community. Except for regional stability and supporting a major corporation, the US doesn't have much reason to care. That said, the General in Alma is American, and it stands to reason plenty of the blackshirts are either advisers, contractors, or mercs allowed to work for the Arulcan government by the US in some form or another (the DoD, State Dept, and Intel agencies allowed it).

The US might allow Ricci to send in its specially-hired teams from Tracona rather than just funnel those mercs into Meduna if the situation seems like it's going to spiral out of control. It could be explained that the US is lifting an arms embargo given the deteriorating situation in the country, or that rebel leaders are wanted war criminals (only if Interpol has already gotten angry itself). I'm just thinking that it would be nice to have a reason to think about protecting important areas in the north during the later game. Having some blackshirts move from either from Meduna or the borders and attack the Drassen airport while your mercs are busy in Balime or Grumm would be a nice twist.

Maybe add a facility that, if staffed by somebody persuasive (high leadership), broadcasts propaganda outside of the country. Letting Miguel explain his plans and actions might mitigate some of the pressure to start sanctions or get more financial support out of quietly-supportive nearby nations.
Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339578 is a reply to message #339577] Sun, 22 February 2015 03:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Yes, those are good points to consider. A propaganda war on the international scene might be a much better way to go. I also agree that something needs to be done to make the 'occupied north' less safe and secure -- even if it's just the Queen's doing. Assassins to attack any lone Merc stationed up there, or propaganda to lower global loyalty and cause defections of the militia and/or mineworkers . . . actually, the Queen threatening mineworker families is entirely in keeping with her conduct, and would have disastrous consequences to the Player's economic base if left unchecked.




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Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339580 is a reply to message #339578] Sun, 22 February 2015 03:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
It's been ages since I played UB - is Ricci related to Armand and Lola? I assume, because that's way to specific to be a coincidence. In that case, there is a good way here to piss off Ricci even more happy

[Updated on: Sun, 22 February 2015 03:37]




Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339584 is a reply to message #339580] Sun, 22 February 2015 04:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:1548
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
I only noticed this connection more recently playing some UB mods. I think the coincidence with the name is a strong one.


Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339592 is a reply to message #339577] Sun, 22 February 2015 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
That said, the General in Alma is American, and it stands to reason plenty of the blackshirts are either advisers, contractors, or mercs allowed to work for the Arulcan government by the US in some form or another (the DoD, State Dept, and Intel agencies allowed it).


It's been a while since I last played JA2 (life got in the way) and just got back into it this past December. I had forgotten the General was American, and even now I barely remember that I knew that at one time (old age memory, y'know?). Where does it say he's American? I mean, yeah, he looks and sounds American, for whatever that's worth, but so does Fred, and he says he's lived his whole life in Arulco. I'm not disputing, just need to have my memory refreshed. Thanks.




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Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339597 is a reply to message #339592] Sun, 22 February 2015 21:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jasmith

 
Messages:32
Registered:January 2013
Location: US
The nationalities are in the MercProfiles.xml file. Some of them are quite interesting, considering they were mostly put there by the developers.

As for Ricci, in UB they are revealed to be the international corporation behind the mines in Arulco, and they supported the queen's rise to power and sustained her regime in exchange for mineral rights. The plot of UB is that they're building up merc troops and a missile base in Tracona (Arulco's northern neighbor) after the queen is defeated (and the mines are nationalized) to force the new government into letting them resume control of the mining industry. A team of your mercs are sent in to disable the missile base and let Arulco rebuild in peace.

I figure that Ricci Corp. was the main source for weapons, mercs, and advisers supporting the queen. Real specialists like the General help plan things for her, and mercs from all over the world got hired on to train the army and serve as "advisers" to the troops (you can recruit two of them, and somewhere it mentions that lots of the blackshirts are enemy mercs). Between the US ties with Ricci and the queens family ties to Eastern Europe, the weird selection of weapons and personnel from all over the place makes a certain amount of sense.

It would also fit that the Ricci's in Balime are the corporate representatives in the country. Also, bonus theory: Eliot is Ricci's liaison with the queen, but she thinks he's a spy put in her palace to keep an eye on her. It explains their relationship and why she blames him for everything that goes wrong. cheeky
Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #339598 is a reply to message #339597] Sun, 22 February 2015 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Ah, thank you for the detailed explanation. That does clear up a lot of questions in my mind about how things are set up in the power structure of Arulco.




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Re: Idea: Outside Organizations[message #340361 is a reply to message #339598] Wed, 01 April 2015 23:45 Go to previous message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
A few more ideas for organisations, because writing down ideas clears my head:
  • Ricci Mining Corp. are, as jasmith pointed out, one of the main backers of Deidranna, which automatically makes them antagonistic towards the rebels.
    Extorting money from members of the Ricci family itself seems like sure way to piss them off.
    Killing members of the family is will let them go ballistic.

    Lorewise, the bad stuff would come in UB. For now, they could harm your mining efforts in some way - perhaps blocking routes to get the ore out of country, effectively lowering kine income.
  • There might be some former officer corps in Alma. This represents family of the army brass and retired officers - people you don't gun down on the battlefield, but who are nevertheless closely tied to the army and might still have some draw in Alma.
    Executing highranking officers will make them angry (for gameplay reasons, this refers to NPCs like the Lt. and the General, which you do not have to gun down in the campaign).
    Dynamo is a known malcontent in Alma. Freeing him and bringing him back will not sit well with all of Alma...
    The army has been fighting the rebels for a long time. Miguel, Carlos and Manuel did make a few widows, which makes anybody working with them unwelcome.
    Assassinating the generals, who are members of this group, won't make them friendlier.
    Bandaging the Lt. is a sign of goodwill.
    If you allow the Lt. to walk free, he will indeed lay in a good word, improving relations.
    Granting former army personnel access to your inner circle shows them that they don't have to go down with Deidranna.

    These people know the inner workings of the army like nobody else. They could provide you with info on army patrols, military installations etc.. They could also point out army storage facilities you do not yet know about.
    These people run the city. They won't openly rebel, but don't expect loyalty to be high... or the prison to run well against their will.
    If any group were to infiltrate your militia with assassins, these would be the guys.
  • Arulco isn't exactly known for its sophisticated technological sector. In fact, an outside arms developer uses the remote country for a secret experimental weapons program in Orta. In exchange for secrecy and protection, the royal army gets a few special toys for its elite divisions (the rocket rifles).
    They won't be happy if you steal a working prototype from Alma.
    They will be even less happy if you help yourself to a whole cache of the things.
    They won't be happy if you threaten or even kill their top scientists.
    They will be extremely pissed if you raid their main lab.
    Dr. Kairns has gone rogue. If he works for you, that will look bad in their quarterly performance review.
    The robot is another prototype of theirs. You aren't even supposed to know about that, stop using their stuff!
    If Dr. Kairns were to quietly vanish, that would solve an embarassing security glitch.
    That robot also needs to go.
    If you bribe one of their scientists, he might be able to make you look not as bad.

    If you really get on their nerves, they might increase their deliveries to the army, to get you out of the way. Better gear for the army? (might be detrimental, as we get whatever the army carries by killing them anyway)
    If we are not too much a pest, they might just cut their losses and leave the country, which means less hightech for the army.
  • Harrows clothing Inc. produces stylish clothes. Their 'by kids, for kids' T-Shirt line is extremely popular with teens nowadays.
    Shooting their CEO in the head sure won't get you a discount, that's for sure.
    Threatening the company with violence to leave the country is no style to lead a business.
    Convincing their CEO that the country is a warzone and that they should leave, while also pointing out a few technical labour law violations, might make them antagonistic in the short run. But as you turn the country into rubble, they might realisz that leaving was the smart thing to do.

    If you harm or threaten Doreen, but she manages to leave the country, will result in some very bad press back in the states. This will affect your standing with other organisations negatively.
    If you make Doreen realize the error of her ways, and allow her to leave unharmed, she might actually result in some good press, by pointing out how you are not as bad as other reports indicate.
    Free T-Shirts?
  • The UK can be for or against sanction too, like the US and Russia. They don't have many interests here, but...
    Mickey O'Brien and Devin Connell are not only arms dealers/smugglers of the worst kind, they also have a history of armed conflict with the UK that goes back a few decades. Details are not important for you, but your dealings with them will be monitored.
    The druggist is also of special interest here.

    They can affect sanctions positively or negatively.
A lot more can be thought of, but that would require another way to interact with factions, be it by email or quest people that you meet and who talk to you.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


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