Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » Split the 'Ranger' trait
cloud107.png  Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339683] Thu, 26 February 2015 23:14 Go to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
The new trait system is excellent - no question about that. What seems a bit odd to me though is the 'Hunter/Ranger' trait. The reason is that while all other weapon classes have traits dedicated to them (Auto weapons, Heavy weapons, Sniper, Gunslinger, Hand to hand), Ranger is a mixture. It's mostly shotguns, a bit of rifles and then survival stuff:

  • +%d%s CtH with Rifles
  • +%d%s CtH with Shotguns
  • -%d%s APs needed to pump Shotguns
  • -%d%s APs to fire Shotguns
  • Adds %d more aim click(s) for Shotguns
  • +%d%s group traveling speed between sectors if traveling by foot
  • +%d%s group traveling speed between sectors if traveling in vehicle (except helicopter)
  • -%d%s less energy spent for travelling between sectors
  • -%d%s weather penalties
  • +%d%s camouflage effectiveness
  • -%d%s worn out speed of camouflage by water or time
  • Can spot tracks up to %d tiles away
I would really like to divide this trait. Currently, the trait doesn't really fit anybody - mercs like Shadow, Monk and Spooky clearly have it so they get the survival stuff - but there is no justification why these mercs would be exceptionally good with shotguns, or even prefer them. Leech clearly has it for the gun part, no reason for him to be a survival expert. Same for others who get it mostly for the shotgun part.

The survival stuff would be justifiable as a minor trait of its own I think - Survival. We could add -x% food/drink consumption and +x% physical/disease resistance for more flavour.

The weapon part is a bit more trickier. Mostly because shotguns suck ingame. Their damage might be high, but the AP cost is extremely high. If your merc is also moving in his turn, you won't get more than one aimed shot off. If that one does not kill the target (which happens later on with better armour), you're dead. Couple that with bad accuracy and low range, and you have a very bad gun. Suppression is high, but I want my guns to kill people, not temporarily annoy them. Lockbusting is useless, as any gun can do that. A simple M4 outclasses a shotgun in almost every scenario.
Anyway, we could just leave the current gun-stuff as it is, but that will make the trait pretty bad, especially for a two-stage trait.

One idea would be to split the gun part into two separate one-stage traits: Rifle proficiency and Shotgun proficiency. This would solve all character issues. Mercs would be able to do what they should and not get illogical boni.

The rifle trait would obviously be a bit... empty. Hmm. Who uses rifles ingame later on? Not ARs and not SRs, just rifles? Are there even decent ones? I guess the Beowulf is there... the Garand, Mosin-Nagant and K-98 are inferior to the 7.62 battle rifles... and there are the rocket rifles, but let's not go there. Is there anything that would be able to make rifles stand out lategame?

[Updated on: Thu, 26 February 2015 23:14]




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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339694 is a reply to message #339683] Fri, 27 February 2015 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
I think the trait makes sense as it is. It's about hunters or rangers, people that spend a lot of time in the wild. Among other things they are hunting with rifles or shotguns, hence the weapon proficiency. Because they spend so much time in the wild they learn to live there better than others, hence the survival abilities.

We don't really need another sole rifle proficiency. We already have the marksman/sniper for that.

A shotgun proficiency would make even less sense if shotguns suck so bad as you say. Who would pick that proficiency?

Funny thing is that my team has a hunter with a shotgun. She has more kills than my AR guys. big grin
She is using a SPAS-12 (range 20 with buckshot and full choke) at the moment. Before it was a Neostead (range 18 with buckshot and duckbill). We can also add an extender to any shotgun which increases range by 10. That brings maximum range to 25-26 for most shotguns which is clearly enough. Flechette ammo is devastating and has good armor penetration. It's only available later in the game but it's also needed only in the later game because of better armor. At the moment (progress 42) buckshot is just fine.
Also the suppression effect is very nice. I can slow down a group of enemies to a crawl with just two shots and also injure them in the process. Shotguns are nice for mercs with bad marksmanship too. Even Gasket can hit something with his shotgun.

I agree that firing AP cost for shotguns is much too high but this can easily be fixed by XML editing. I can do that later on. I would lower it to AR level. At the moment it's even higher than SR level which is insane. A shotgun is a gun that can be fired as fast as any rifle.



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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339700 is a reply to message #339694] Fri, 27 February 2015 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hmm. Maybe I wasn't clear in that regard. In itself, the ranger trait makes sense. But I question having it around in the first place. The other weapon traits are simply about handling a specific gun class. The ranger trait is about handling two gun classes with tacked-on boni to other things that are not related to any weapon at all. And it also does not make sense that someone good at surviving in the wilds would somehow automatically be good in handling shotguns.

The shotgun proficiency would go to those mercs that currently have the ranger trait, but no because of the survival stuff.

I guess your enemies' progress must be different from mine (or the ones that I remember), because I remember buckshot only working rarely if the enemy had even mildly decent armour. I also play with lower suppression, because I find it irritating that a few bullets stun my entire team I often had the impression that suppression affected mercs disproportionately, but haven't found a clue in the code towards that.

Hmm.

Lowering the AP cost would likely be the best change, as one shot doesn't cut it.

As it is, to me, Ranger is useless apart from the survival stuff later on. That makes it not quite as useless as Gunslinger or melee later on, but I still see it as a waste.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 February 2015 13:24]




Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339704 is a reply to message #339700] Fri, 27 February 2015 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
Sure, someone good at survival in the wild is not automatically skilled with certain weapons. I just wouldn't split up shotgun and rifle bonus. If we keep them together the merc with the hunter/ranger trait has more options. The other weapon traits have multiple weapon options available too. Gunslingers have bonuses for pistols, revolvers and auto pistols. Auto-Weapons mercs have bonuses for SMGs and ARs. Snipers have bonuses for rifles and sniper rifles. Heavy weapons mercs get bonuses to grenade launchers, bazookas and mortar. So it would only be fair to give the hunter bonuses for two weapon types as well so he can choose from a wider arsenal.

I won't protest if you make survival a minor trait. Just leave the weapons part as it is please.

I guess part of the different experience may come from using different maps. I play on the WF6.07 maps which have dense grass and lots of buildings and other cover. So during combat the combatants get closer to each other compared to normal maps. This makes shotgun users and also gunslingers more powerful compared to open maps where combat takes place at distances of over 30 tiles. At the moment my gunfighter/ambidextrous IMP with two PP-93 has more kills than any other merc in the team except for my main sniper because at least some of the 8 bullets in one turn hit their target even beyond range.

I will lower AP costs for shotguns in the standard 1.13 GameDir. You can take care of the survival part. cheeky



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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339705 is a reply to message #339704] Fri, 27 February 2015 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1172
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russia
I always wanted to equip my tech merc with a shotgun (and have some bonuses for shooting with it), but without that "survive in the woods" scout/ranger thing.
For example, Gasket should look nice with a boomstick, but he's definitely not a forester but a car mechanic.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 18:58]




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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339707 is a reply to message #339705] Fri, 27 February 2015 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
Ok, I would change the value of <ubShotsPer4Turns> for all shotguns to old value + 3. This brings them in line with rifles and ARs.

Old AP range for a single shot was from 30 (sawed off shotgun) to 40 (CAWS).
New AP range would be from 24 (sawed off shotgun) to 30 (CAWS).

I think that's reasonable, isn't it?


edit: Might as well just set new values for shotguns in Item_Settings.ini:

SP4T_SHOTGUN_MODIFIER = 1.0 1.3
BURST_AP_SHOTGUN_MODIFIER = 1.0 1.3
AF_SP5AP_SHOTGUN_MODIFIER = 1.0 1.3

That's what I implemented these modifiers for after all. To be able to quickly adjust values for all weapons of a certain type.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 February 2015 18:47]




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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339712 is a reply to message #339707] Fri, 27 February 2015 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
FYI, I'm currently coding the split of the trait into Survival and Shotgun proficiency. Shotgun proficiency gets the boni for shotguns and rifles, and I'm open to a better name (singleshot twohanded bullet guns without auto? Rifle(wo)manning?). I will make this a one-stage major trait - major as this is a weapon trait, and one-stage as it has lost quite a lot of boni, so no need to invest 2 points in there.

Survival will be a minor trait.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339714 is a reply to message #339712] Fri, 27 February 2015 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
Why not leave it the Hunter/Ranger? All weapon proficiencies have two levels. No need to change anything here. Also only the ranger got the aim level reduction bonus for shotguns.
If you want to make it equal to other weapon proficiencies you have to give it two levels. Add a 10/20 percent range bonus if you like to make it worth selecting.



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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339716 is a reply to message #339714] Sat, 28 February 2015 00:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hmm. It'll be less useful then. Hmm.

Also, fun fact: the IMP creation is bugged. The order in which you select traits affects how high your in stats have to be... for example, pick Marksman and then Gunslinger, and you'll need 65 MRK. Pick Gunslinger and then Marksman, and you'll only need 55 MRK.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 00:06]




Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339717 is a reply to message #339714] Sat, 28 February 2015 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cardinal

 
Messages:38
Registered:September 2014
It's probably not my place to barge in but here are a few suggestions:

-Maybe you could do something similar to what Strohmann did in SDO - move some of the DMR's from the ubWeaponType sniper rifle to rifle (SVD variants, Zastava m76 and the like).

-The marksman/sniper class' aim level reduction bonus seems to refer to ubWeaponClass rather than ubWeaponType (it gives the bonus to sniper rifles, rifles and ARs) - make it 'sniper rifle' specific and give the 'rifle' aim level reduction bonus to hunter/ranger.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 00:25]

Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339718 is a reply to message #339714] Sat, 28 February 2015 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:761
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
I hope I'm not breaking convention by posting on this thread -- but it has been very interesting to me. For whatever it's worth I agree that shotguns and hunter should stay together, that said I'd also like to be able to select either military ranger or civilian hunter -- so perhaps what can be done is . . . Ranger would get survival+ one bonus each from night ops and stealth and athletics to round it out (or something like that). The hunter minor would get shotgun/rifle and and a travel bonus. Or something like that.

Just my 2 pesos.




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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339719 is a reply to message #339718] Sat, 28 February 2015 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hmm. For now I'm simply creating the new minor trait, and moving the non-gun boni to there.

I am still unsure about Ranger (now purely gun-based) staying two-staged. In that case I feel it should get upped boni and/or new ones, like what Cardinal proposed. Or I could make it one-staged, and add lower boni, but higher than lvl1 Ranger.

@edmortimer: Well, I want to split that. One can then still create a hunter by picking Ranger (the now pure-gun trait) and survival, but it doesn't make sense for those two to always stuck together.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339720 is a reply to message #339719] Sat, 28 February 2015 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cardinal

 
Messages:38
Registered:September 2014
Here's a silly idea - what if you completely dissolved the hunter/ranger as a weapon trait,

give the rifle stuff to marksman/sniper,

and give the shotgun stuff to gunslinger/gunfighter and rename it something like urban warfare/cqc specialist
Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339721 is a reply to message #339720] Sat, 28 February 2015 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
As or r7756/Gamedir r2213, Survival is now a minor trait. Settings are in Skills_Settings.xml, the boni are somewhat in between the old lvl1 and lvl2 ranger boni.

The following merc have new traits:

  • Igor: Stealthy, Survival (was: Stealthy, Hunter)
  • Shadow: Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Stealthy, Survival (was: Ranger, Stealthy)
  • Tex: Ambidextrous, Gunfighter (was: Ambidextrous, Hunter, Gunslinger ) + maxed background camo bonus - it seems obvious to me he only had hunter because of the camo part, which is now taken care of by his background
  • Monk: Auto weapons, Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Survival (was: Auto weapons, Ranger, which violated the maximum number of major traits!)
  • Spooky: Melee, Stealthy, Survival (was: Ranger, Melee)
  • Manuel: Stealty, Athletics, Survival (was: Stealty, Athletics, Hunter)

Also fixed the IMP creation min stat requirement bug.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 01:35]




Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339731 is a reply to message #339721] Sat, 28 February 2015 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
There seems to be a bug in r7756 that blocks the player from selecting two levels of the auto weapons trait. edit: I'm going to fix that with the next commit.

I think I'll be going to adjust the bonuses of the hunter/ranger trait to make it more useful now that it lost all of the survival stuff. The focus will be on shotguns.

- add an effective range bonus for shotguns
- revoke the aim level reduction change so hunter gets 1 again and the ranger gets 2 additional aim levels <- this is actually a very powerful bonus as it allows much faster fully aimed shots

I won't give the bonuses to any other trait as Cardinal suggested because the other traits are already very powerful and don't need a boost. Btw. the gunfighter in JA2 1.13 is more or less a pistolero or pistolier, a person that uses handguns not rifles or shotguns so the shotgun bonuses don't fit there anyway. Also I'm for more choices and specialization not less.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 16:07]




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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339734 is a reply to message #339731] Sat, 28 February 2015 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cardinal

 
Messages:38
Registered:September 2014
Yeah, it wasn't a completely serious suggestion. It's just that from the posts I've seen on the forums in general people dismissed the Ranger as kinda useless even with all the survival stuff.

I wasn't really suggesting buffing any other traits. Sniper already has the same rifle accuracy bonus as ranger.

More specialization and weapon choices are fine but I don't think anyone really uses the ranger for the rifle bonus (if they ever pick it at all) since the sniper also gets aim level reduction, scope and bolt action bonuses. Rangers using something like a Mauser rifle and a high power scope fire very slowly and are still not as accurate as a sniper, so giving them an AR is usually a much better choice. I guess you could give every ranger a Ruger mini but that would be the opposite of "choice".

I still think sniper's aim level reduction bonus is too good. I think giving rangers the aim level reduction bonus for the rifle weapon type (not class) wouldn't be excessive.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339735 is a reply to message #339731] Sat, 28 February 2015 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3049
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
silversurfer wrote on Sat, 28 February 2015 10:20
There seems to be a bug in r7756 that blocks the player from selecting two levels of the auto weapons trait. edit: I'm going to fix that with the next commit.
Too late, I just did :-)



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339740 is a reply to message #339735] Sat, 28 February 2015 19:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
Ok, I'm done for the moment revamping the Ranger trait.

The following was changed in r7761:

- aim click bonus for shotguns is now again 1 (hunter) or 2 (ranger)
- new aim click bonus for rifles that is half the shotgun bonus. With the default value of "1" this means 0 for hunter and 1 for ranger. This does NOT stack with the sniper bonus! It's one or the other depending on which is higher.
- new speed bonus to reloading single shells into shotguns
- new range bonus for shotguns of 10% (hunter) or 20% (ranger)

I have no idea why the sniper had an aim level reduction for ARs but I removed that. He now only has aim level reduction for rifles and sniper rifles as the original intention was I suppose.

EDB now also shows the modified range value for a gun so you can actually see the effect of a trait on that weapon.
Also draw cost for a weapon now displays the trait modified value.

GameDir 2214 has the new values in Skills_Settings.INI. I also set the following parameters in Item_Settings.ini:

SP4T_SHOTGUN_MODIFIER = 1.3
BURST_AP_SHOTGUN_MODIFIER = 1.3
AF_SP5AP_SHOTGUN_MODIFIER = 1.3



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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #344777 is a reply to message #339740] Mon, 28 March 2016 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CVB

 
Messages:136
Registered:September 2014
Location: Berlin
Thread necromancy alarm...

I would like to propose to limit MAX_STACKABLE_LESS_TRAVEL_TIME_BONUSES to 1 instead of 2.

Reason: as a compensation for becoming a one-level trait, GROUP_TIME_SPENT_FOR_TRAVELLING_BY_FOOT_REDUCTION was increased to 30 (up from 20)

If two Survivalists and a rebel (say Manuel) are combined in a travel group, they now sprint along roads in 89* (1-(0,30+0,30+0,07))=29 minutes, slightly faster than a car without special bonus



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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #344780 is a reply to message #344777] Mon, 28 March 2016 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2064
Registered:May 2009
I think that more than one guide doesn't make much sense anyway. The guide leads the group and the group follows. I'd propose to remove the MAX_STACKABLE_LESS_TRAVEL_TIME_BONUSES parameter altogether and allow only one guide + background bonus.



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Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #345801 is a reply to message #339721] Fri, 03 June 2016 01:12 Go to previous message
Julix

 
Messages:85
Registered:June 2010
Location: Germany

Flugente wrote on Sat, 28 February 2015 00:35
...
[*] Shadow: Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Stealthy, Survival (was: Ranger, Stealthy)
[*] Monk: Auto weapons, Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Survival (was: Auto weapons, Ranger, which violated the maximum number of major traits!)
...


I was wondering what was up with the amount of hunters we suddenly have. See for the old folks with rifles and shot guns it makes perfect sence, but neither Monk nor Shadow had any indication of a rifle preference in the old system. Shadow was very particular about not sharing his camo-kit (represented by never having one and just always being in camo), similar to Tex. His premium is a sniper rifle and the wiki is riddled with references to him being a sniper. Monk on the other hand is all about assault rifles. Why not make him an auto-expert (and survival) and Shadow a Marksman/Stealth/Survival? -- I don't think it's over-powered compared to how little camo ends up doing for you now that you can't just paint your whole body anymore... unless you have a crazy amount of gear. Definitively more realistic though.

Anyway, my 2 ct. - give em something besides Hunter. Don't want to be tempted to give them shotguns...


And yeah, as for stacking guides - It saves so much money on travel time, that it's almost impossible to justify not hiring Igor, Shadow or Monk (or IMP) and another one once you find Manuel for a second squad. The helicopter becomes much less necessary, as does the ice cream truck (though it's nice for big inventory of carrying stuff - a tertiary clean-up squad...) - Last I played I finished the game in a ridiculously short time (because I also save-scummed and so rarely had wounded soldiers and with that travel speed could basically skip militia...)

[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2016 22:55]

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