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NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340710] Sat, 25 April 2015 04:43 Go to next message
Zundman7301

 
Messages:38
Registered:June 2005
Location: USA
I have searched and searched the forums for a thread detailing the roles each NCTH values plays, but with the most of the old links people have posted pointing to the old Bear's Pit site, I can't for the life of me find a thread that walks you through all the values and what calculations they influence.

I am currently creating a huge "Real Guns" weapon rebalance mod to make the guns and ammo in the game more like their real-world counterparts, but before I can complete it, I need to know a little bit about how armor penetration is calculated, and how some of the NCTH modifiers work. One big question that I'm not able to figure out is how to insert values that influence armor penetration directly, so that bullets that move faster, even if they are smaller, will penetrate armor while larger rounds, which may do higher damage, may not penetrate as well as others. Does anyone know which values affect these calculations?

Also, a specifically related question:

1. "Bullet Speed": Does anyone know exactly what this .xml value does? Does it influence damage or armor penetration calculations at all?

Thank you in advance.

Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340715 is a reply to message #340710] Sat, 25 April 2015 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
There are several balance mods made for 1.13:
Stock Data Overhaul which uses balanced NCTH values (some based on real values).
MAM 245 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values (this is based on older 4870 and OCTH but there's not much difference what system you use for damage calculation)

Did you read the Headrock's howto's?

I think that bullet's speed has only visual effect in the game.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 April 2015 12:08]




Stable 7609+fix (21.05.2017)
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Improved weapon sounds
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Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340751 is a reply to message #340715] Mon, 27 April 2015 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zundman7301

 
Messages:38
Registered:June 2005
Location: USA
The links to "Headrock's How-To's" are broken, like many other links pointing to the data I'm looking for in other threads. This is the root of the problem. I'm sure everything I'm looking for has already been discussed. It's accessing it that's making things difficult. I get that everyone's working as fast as they can to bring everything back online, however, so no worries.

The other data overhauls which have been done have still never really reflected the weapons in the game accurately enough for my liking. I've always shied away from trying to make my own overhaul because the relevant values to make the weapons more life-like have never existed before NCTH and Flugente's overheating and dirt mods. However, I think now I'm able to use the features others have implemented to give the weapons better balance and feel and take advantage of those features and make the weapons behave and be the way they should be--.454 Casull hand cannons should hit like cruise missiles (if they're within range), certain sub-machine guns should handle like dreams (other sub-machine guns should handle like nightmares), some assault rifles ought to work like champions until you have to reload them (like bullpups), and other assault rifles and battle rifle platforms ought to hit hard, but not often, unless you're really using them the way you're supposed to. The world is filled with different guns because they all behave so differently and fill so many different roles. In contrast, we've added so many guns to the game, but by and large, they all behave the same. There's no longer any reason for that. The values have been created to really allow the weapons to take on their own unique characteristics, now they just need to be taken advantage of. I just need a little help determining how the calculations are done. Certainly, armor penetration and increased damage modifier have always existed in AP/HP ammos. The questions is where they are stored and how to interpret them in tandem with all the other modifiers.

But re: Bullet Speed, thank you for your help.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 April 2015 05:09]

Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340755 is a reply to message #340751] Mon, 27 April 2015 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3512
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Marlboro's links might me broken, but for God's sake, Headrock's posts are right there, below the main topic. Using the search would also help. It's not like moderators are hired to make and update non-stop lists after lists of posts. Open the "Time Capsule" subforum and you will see everything in there.

http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=230&


Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340758 is a reply to message #340755] Mon, 27 April 2015 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zundman7301

 
Messages:38
Registered:June 2005
Location: USA
Oh, wow. I can't beleive I missed that. Thanks, Shanga.

I have been using the search feature--for days. I'm sure some of my problem is user error--I'm not very technical, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying to get better. Thank you for your help.

I certainly don't expect the moderators to spend all their time updating lists. Like I said, above. I understand the limitations. I hope I didn't imply otherwise. You all do a great job.

Thanks,

Z

[Updated on: Mon, 27 April 2015 19:30]

Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340760 is a reply to message #340758] Mon, 27 April 2015 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3051
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
While I normally don't answer PMs in public, this might be useful for other people as well, so I'm posting my answer to you here. I hope that's okay.

Zundman7301
Can you tell me-- where are the values located (in either weapons or ammo) that affect damage and/or armor penetration? And what are the formulas for those calculatioan? Getting the weapon balance right is so dependent on whether bullets, no matter how much damage they do, will penetrate armor or not, and to what degree.
There are quite a few formulas involved, and the damage is affected by quite a few things - gun damage, range, accuracy (sort of), traits, bullet flight path, armour of target, target hit location (head/torso/legs), critical hit chance, ammo properties... I'll just list the most important ones.

<ubImpact> in Weapons.xml determines the basic damage. This is the most important of them all. You can ignore <ubDeadliness> - this just indicates how deadly NPCs consider the weapon to be, this is used when threatening or interrogating people.
<usRange> is also very important - the longer a bullet travels compared to the gun's max range, the weaker the impact will be. So a rng 20 gun will (roughly) do less damage than a rng 100 gun, even if both have the same <ubImpact> value.

There are 4 sets of multipliers in AmmoTypes.xml that define important ammo type properties. For some obscure reason (most likely that whoever created the xml was unaware that we can also read double from a xml), we are stuck with 2 values for each:
  • If a bullet hits something (a wall, a tree etc.), its impact value is reduced by that structures armour times <structureImpactReductionMultiplier> / <structureImpactReductionDivisor>. A lower fraction reduces that reduction, resulting in a higher impact.
  • If the target wears armour (and the bullet doesn't bypass it), the impact is reduced by the armour's protection value times <armourImpactReductionMultiplier> / <armourImpactReductionDivisor>. Lower values result in lower reduction, resulting in higher impact.
  • <beforeArmourDamageMultiplier> / <beforeArmourDamageDivisor> modifies impact before armour is hit, but only works if ammo is also <highExplosive> (shown as 'Pre-Armor Explosion' in EDB).
  • <afterArmourDamageMultiplier> / <afterArmourDamageDivisor> modifies impact after armour is hit (shown as 'Bullet Tumble' in EDB).
Once the target is hit, damage is taken from the bullet's impact value.

<canGoThrough> determines whether a bullet can pierce a person.
<antiTank> determines whether the bullet can damage tanks.
If <ignoreArmour> is set, body armour is completely ignored.
If <ammoflag> has 4, the bullet is ANTIMATERIEL - it can destroy structures, like walls. This requires a significant impact when hitting though - adding this to .38 won't achieve anything cheeky
<dDamageModifierLife> and <dDamageModifierBreath> are very new tags. These are multipliers to the health/breath damage after the damage has been calculated.

Item_Settings.ini offers very handy variables if you want to modify damage for an entire gun category (Sniper rifles, Shotguns...).



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340762 is a reply to message #340760] Mon, 27 April 2015 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1210
Registered:December 2012
Location: South Urals
Flugente are you sure that range still used for bullet damage reduction?

What I found in LOS.cpp is
/*
INT32 BulletImpactReducedByRange( INT32 iImpact, INT32 iDistanceTravelled, INT32 iRange )
{
// for now, don't reduce, because did weird stuff to AI!
return( iImpact );

// only start reducing impact at distances greater than one range
//return( __max( 1, iImpact * ( 100 - ( PERCENT_BULLET_SLOWED_BY_RANGE * iDistanceTravelled ) / iRange ) / 100 ) );

}
*/


And all other instances with BulletImpactReducedByRange are also commented out. (and they were commented out since vanilla code)
Or maybe bullet damage reduction is handled somewhere else?



Stable 7609+fix (21.05.2017)
Stable 7609+AI (r426 20.06.2017)
Improved weapon sounds
Youtube channel


Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340763 is a reply to message #340762] Mon, 27 April 2015 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3051
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Well, we have
INT32 HandleBulletStructureInteraction( BULLET * pBullet, STRUCTURE * pStructure, BOOLEAN * pfHit )
{
...
iImpactReduction = gubMaterialArmour[ pStructure->pDBStructureRef->pDBStructure->ubArmour ];
		iImpactReduction = StructureResistanceIncreasedByRange( iImpactReduction, pBullet->iRange, pBullet->iLoop );

		iImpactReduction = (INT32) (iImpactReduction * AmmoTypes[ubAmmoType].structureImpactReductionMultiplier / max(1,AmmoTypes[ubAmmoType].structureImpactReductionDivisor));
...
and
INT32 StructureResistanceIncreasedByRange( INT32 iImpactReduction, INT32 iGunRange, INT32 iDistance )
{
	return( iImpactReduction * ( 100 + PERCENT_BULLET_SLOWED_BY_RANGE * (iDistance - iGunRange) / iGunRange ) / 100 );
}
There are likely more locations where range is still a factor (basically the entire bullet handling). The exact size of the effect might be smaller than I had expected though.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: NCTH Values, Damage, and Armor Penetration[message #340765 is a reply to message #340763] Mon, 27 April 2015 21:59 Go to previous message
Zundman7301

 
Messages:38
Registered:June 2005
Location: USA
Thank you, Flugente. That's perfect. No problems on the PM, thank you for sharing so everyone else can see and benefit.
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