Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » Militia require resources
Militia require resources[message #345623] Sun, 22 May 2016 15:20 Go to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
When training a population to be militia, we need several things. We need trainers, which we have with out mercs. We need people to train, which we obtain by liberating towns and then training the loyal part of the population (we already have volunteers as a resource if we so desire).

What we also need is equipment (guns, ammo, armour) for our militia. In vanilla, this was always generated at random every time militia was spawned. Which was somewhat odd, as $750 allowed you to get 10 militia with gear that could have a price-tag of several thousand $. To counteract that (and to open a way to somewhat specifically gear your militia, to open a new need for item management and to make a use for the gazillion of items with 'Drop All') I added equippable militia. Which does exactly that.

I do, however, have a slight problem with that feature. Not in the way it behaves - as far is I'm currently concerned, there are no unresolved bugs, and it does exactly what I wanted (there somewhat of a speed issue, which I might resolve soon-ish, but that's a performance-only issue). I'm currently playing a game with an increased team size an significantly sped up strategic AI (BaseDelayInMinutesBetweenEvaluations is 10, variance is 5). Simply put, I have a team of 8 mercs doing nothing but moving gear from battlefields back to cities and militia, but it's simply a drop in the water. Even worse, as I attack together with militia, they and their gear move away from the towns. This means that the gear (especially the one from the latest battles, which is always the best) is always away from the militia creation sectors. Which means that I have to move them to the last battle fields. If they get into battle before then, it's a one-sided slaughter.
http://i.imgur.com/N0LNiwN.png
http://i.imgur.com/pKhDNDf.png
I does not seem that bad in these pictures, but I already merged, moved and sold a lot of gear. It's day 7 and I've already killed 3206 army guys, and the huge offensives haven't even started. Do the math, that's a huge amount of items.

While there is the ability to block militia from using specific items, this is beyond tedious in your HQ, where one has several thousand items. Of course, after unloading the map they'll drop the stuff back to the sector inventory again, but I simply don't want militia to bring chaos to my ordered inventory in HQ (I still need militia there for defense and prisoner-guarding, and need to access that sector in tactical to perform surgeries/go shopkeeping).

Additionally, I really don't like leaving tons of stuff unattended in the wilderness. Simply doesn't seem right at all from an immersion standpoint. At the same time, I do want to play with Drop-All, because it seems logical to me. And I don't want for militia gear to simply fly from the heavens.

Now, what I of course could do is simply use [Alt] + [LMB] to sell the stuff I don't need, and at the same time increase militia training cost. However, I do somewhat enjoy making a buck by selling gear to merchants (that's what Flo is there for, after all). At the same time, with Drop-All I'd have so much money from gear that mine income would be an afterthought. If I then lower the money generated while keeping expensive training cost, that's not better...

In the end, I want the following things the current feature does not provide:

  • for the gear dropped to be used in huge quantities for militia, so that I still have scarce supplies and might even have shortcuts that forbid me from expanding militia. I feel that the volunteer-part works well in that regard (in this campaign, due to high militia losses and not enough volunteers, I had to raid Tixa, knowing I didn't have the manpower to hold it, simply to get the extra volunteers you get from liberating it for the first time).
  • after being created, militia should have their equipment
  • in order to use militia, create less need for the player to move gear around
  • do not use money as a direct substitute for gear, as this will skew the game economy
  • if possible, be simple to use and understand
  • be simple to code (optional)
As this is an 'idea' thread, I have one of course. On which I'd like some feedback, please.

The idea is similar to what someone suggested way back before this 'equip militia' feature was created. Roughly said, idea would be to have a resource, like volunteers, that is required and used up by training militia. So, say, we have pools for guns and armour. So then when we train militia, this requires 1 volunteer, 1 gun and 1 armour (we could also have more resources, but you get the idea). So after a militia is created, we've obviously already supplied these resources. It would be easiest if they then get their random gear from their gear xml tables.

The point is, we have to get these resoures first. We do that in the strategic inventory - similar to [Alt] + [LMB], we can transform items into these resources. Click on a gun, and it will be removed and you get +X gun resource. Of course not always 1, idea is to get (pseudocode)
FLOAT a = external setting...
FLOAT b = external setting...

FLOAT resourcegained = b * min(0, (itemstatus / 100) * (1 + a * (10 * itemcoolness - currentprogress) / 100 ) );

thus the more advanced and the better in shape an item is (and the earlier we convert it), the more points we get. We could also slowly reduce our pool points once the progress rises to keep us from benefiting from all those .38 revolvers we converted in early game.

Similar to volunteers, if we don't have the resources, we cannot train militia, thus we always need to convert additional items. Army defectors and PMC mercenaries don't use up volunteers but would also use these resources, so internally, the resource count could go negative, but that won't cause any errors.

So far, I'd say we could the following resources:
  • guns, created from guns
  • armour, created from vests, pants, helmets and plates
  • ammo, created from ammo (not entirely sure how to weight these, as coolness might be different for different mags of the same caliber and ammotype)
  • explosives, created from bombs, grenades, and everything else that can go boom
  • diverse, created from other stuff to account for face gear, melee weapons etc.
That might be too many resources, but I think you get the idea.

So... comments?

[Updated on: Sun, 22 May 2016 15:20]




Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Militia require resources[message #345627 is a reply to message #345623] Sun, 22 May 2016 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:269
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
This certainly seems like a much more game play balanced option than having to mule all the items back to the training spots.

Perhaps some creative mod author can make up a short quest that shows a deal being made for importing tools and such to refurbish the weapons and armor for the locals.
Re: Militia require resources[message #345633 is a reply to message #345627] Sun, 22 May 2016 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
Easy to use is the key here otherwise people like me who dislike excess micromanagement will not use the feature. The idea with the shortcut to convert items into resource points sounds promising.
I think you will need to either use a different amount of resource points for higher class militia or have different resource point types - one per item class and militia level. The second option looks more complicated in my opinion although it may be the most realistic.

Option 1:
- green militia costs one point of each resource type
- regular militia costs two points of each resource type
- elite militia costs three points of each resource type

Option 2:
- green militia costs one point of each green resource type
- regular militia costs one point of each regular resource type
- elite militia costs one point of each elite resource type

Another problem with option 2 could be that in order to create (or upgrade to) elite militia you would need to convert higher than current progress gear into resource points which will require lots of elite opponents who can drop such stuff. On low difficulty levels you will not see many elites so those players couldn't upgrade their militia at all unless they specifically buy high progress stuff from Tony or BR in order to convert it into resource points.

I vote for something like option 1.

PMCs should not cost resource points. They bring their own weapons.

Slowly reducing resource points is a good idea. An externalized value of let's say 2 percent per progress level could be a start. For 10 percent progress you'd lose 20 percent resource points.

I'd say not to use too many resources. Every enemy has a gun and ammo so this isn't a problem. The other equipment types are different. We don't get as many armors and grenades, even less other stuff like med kits for example. If the mix isn't right we'd end up with tons of weapon resource points and no other points which means we can't train militia. Better keep that system simple and do something like this:

- green militia: 1 resource point from guns and ammo each
- regular militia: 1 resource points from guns and ammo each, 1 point from armor
- elite militia: 1 resource points from guns and ammo each, 1 points from armor, 1 point from explosives

With that you should be able to train green militia easily but in order to promote them you will need additional resources. The above example might look cheap but keep in mind that we go from green to elite which costs 3 points from guns and ammo, 2 points from armor and 1 point from explosives for one soldier alone!

I wouldn't use item status in the calculation of points. Equipment can always be repaired.

edit: Also keep in mind that although we have tons of weapons spread across coolness levels we don't have that for other types of gear. We need to get enough points from an MK2 grenade at progress 70 for example although this item has low coolness.

[Updated on: Sun, 22 May 2016 19:38]




Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #345634 is a reply to message #345633] Sun, 22 May 2016 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ratpaz

 
Messages:127
Registered:April 2015
Location: Italy
That will be not a further disadvantage for ppl NOT using the drop all items feature? without that the game is alredy much harder.
Re: Militia require resources[message #345636 is a reply to message #345634] Sun, 22 May 2016 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
ratpaz wrote on Sun, 22 May 2016 18:58
That will be not a further disadvantage for ppl NOT using the drop all items feature? without that the game is alredy much harder.

This feature will be optional and disabled by default. Players that want to use it will have to do so willingly.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #345641 is a reply to message #345636] Mon, 23 May 2016 07:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Panzer

 
Messages:79
Registered:February 2016
Location: Altis, Sometimes Tanoa
such a system should need a supply routes system of some kind. after all, some of my best(read most fun and brutal) moments is when I was attempting to hold cambria, but needed sneaky ppl to move ammo from Drassen to Cambria. Perhaps a supply line/route system that could take inspiration from Unity of Command. Different towns could even provide certain resources.



I have no Wife, Children, or real Job. This also means I have 24 hours a day and 7 days a week to think of a rebuttal. You have been warned.

"I got another problem: I am being overrun by Dinosaur Nazis on Hoverboards!" -Ravenhugger

"Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that who cares? He's a mile away - and you've got his shoes!" - Unknown Criminal
Re: Militia require resources[message #345657 is a reply to message #345641] Mon, 23 May 2016 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
@silversurfer: Tripling resource types for ranks sound like a bad idea. Spending additional resources for promotion sounds a lot better (and also solves the problem of how we'd supply militia early on when there's no armour to be found).
I'd really like to factor in status. It should make a difference whether we convert scrap or good gear.

One thing I'd also like is for the gear degradation by game progress to leave an item's worth invariant. By that I mean that if you convert a M4 at progress 0 and then progress to progress 50, the degraded resource value at that point should be the same value as if you'd convert the item at progress 50. Otherwise we run into a situation where either converting as soon as possible or as late as possible is beneficial - when I really want the player to just convert whenever they feel like without worrying about some optimal solution.

@ratpaz: Unless explicitly stated otherwise, may features are always optional, so no worries there. Drop-All wouldn't be required, but this is geared with Drop-All in mind. Though I guess one could add an external modifier to simply up an item's resource value to make up for fewer items if Drop-All is off.

@Panzer: Well, I have a mothballed feature that actually implements supply routes...
http://i.imgur.com/wOFsnep.png
http://i.imgur.com/2Lko6tg.png
... but I found it to be rather complex. Unless one is a flow algorithm enthusiast, I'm not sure whether the enjoyment would be high.

A problem would be that the current gameplay allows us to take cities in whatever order we like. Granted, some are more reasonable to start with than others, but every one of then works. But if I need to acquire specific sectors in order to even train militia, that limits our possibilities.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Militia require resources[message #345659 is a reply to message #345657] Tue, 24 May 2016 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
Flugente wrote on Mon, 23 May 2016 20:13

I'd really like to factor in status. It should make a difference whether we convert scrap or good gear.

In that case higher difficulty levels will have a hard time collecting resource points because of "LootStatusModifier". Opponents drop mostly scrap. Well, it's higher difficulty so it fits somehow. big grin


Flugente wrote on Mon, 23 May 2016 20:13

One thing I'd also like is for the gear degradation by game progress to leave an item's worth invariant. By that I mean that if you convert a M4 at progress 0 and then progress to progress 50, the degraded resource value at that point should be the same value as if you'd convert the item at progress 50. Otherwise we run into a situation where either converting as soon as possible or as late as possible is beneficial - when I really want the player to just convert whenever they feel like without worrying about some optimal solution.

This could become complicated. In the end you don't know anymore where the points came from and we shouldn't grant more points than an item can be worth. For example a coolness 10 gun shouldn't grant 10 points when used at progress 0 if an elite militia only costs 3 points. Otherwise we could create 3 elites from one gun.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #345661 is a reply to message #345659] Tue, 24 May 2016 04:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Panzer

 
Messages:79
Registered:February 2016
Location: Altis, Sometimes Tanoa
It seems that the supply route system could be simplified or easier done. Maybe supply convoys that are sent manually, or even queued to happen every 12 hours or day or so.(at the players discretion of course, so as you can control what goes where.) Could use different type of resource points obviously, such as Arms RP for weapons and ammo. Explosives RP and so on. of course that could be a bit convoluted. Especially with the convoys system suggested. But the different Resource Points idea is not my best idea it seems.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2016 04:44]




I have no Wife, Children, or real Job. This also means I have 24 hours a day and 7 days a week to think of a rebuttal. You have been warned.

"I got another problem: I am being overrun by Dinosaur Nazis on Hoverboards!" -Ravenhugger

"Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that who cares? He's a mile away - and you've got his shoes!" - Unknown Criminal
Re: Militia require resources[message #345663 is a reply to message #345661] Tue, 24 May 2016 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
I had an idea which might work regarding the allocation and removal of resource points.

We take a multi array that holds the points for each resource type and coolness. Let's call it iMilitiaResources[<Resource Type>][<Coolness>].

<Resource Type> can be:
  • GUN
  • AMMO
  • ARMOR
  • EXPLOSIVE

<Coolness> represents the coolness value of an item and it is used to check if the resource point is valid for a certain type of militia.

Let's use the "GUN" resource type for some example. We have the following guns available and want to convert them to resource points:

  • 3x .38 Special - coolness 1
  • Beretta 93R - coolness 3
  • M14 - coolness 6
  • FN FAL - coolness 6
  • HK 21E - coolness 8

For each gun we get one point at the corresponding coolness level so iMilitiaResources[GUN] holds the following data:

[1] = 3
[2] = 0
[3] = 1
[4] = 0
[5] = 0
[6] = 2
[7] = 0
[8] = 1
[9] = 0
[10] = 0

This is for weapons in perfect condition. In order to factor in the status of an item that we want to convert we could lower the coolness level according to status. For example if the FN FAL is in bad shape we could grant a point for coolness level 4 instead of the original 6. The exact formula for this adjustment needs to be defined. I imagine something like:

new coolness = real coolness - (real coolness * (100 - status) / 100 )

When we want to train militia we need one point from a certain minimum coolness level. The game will go from minimum coolness level to maximum and check for available points. With that method we use the "cheapest" points first.

  • green level = max( 1; current progress / 10 - 2 ) // minimum can't go below coolness 1
  • regular level = max( 1; current progress / 10 - 1 ) // minimum can't go below coolness 1
  • elite militia = max( 1; min( 7; current progress / 10 + 2 ) ) // minimum can't go below coolness 1 and maximum can't go above 7 for availability reasons

Assuming we are at progress 40 we can't use the points we got from our .38 Revolvers even for green militia anymore because 40 / 10 - 2 = 2. So the first available point comes from coolness 3 (points at coolness 2 are 0).

Because we can't use the points from coolness 1 anymore even for green militia we should remove them and grant the player some money (could be done at the nightly routine). Just consider it payment for scrap. I'd say:

money granted = <externalized value> * coolness level * number of removed points

This system also takes care that points from cheap converted resources become useless at higher progress and high progress resources keep their value. When trying to convert an item for a resource point the game should also check if the point that we would get is already obsolete so we block the conversion of useless items.

The above example and minimum levels cannot be adopted to all resource types because we have plenty of guns across coolness levels but we don't have as many armor or explosive items. Still I hope that my idea is clear and somewhat helpful.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #346174 is a reply to message #345663] Mon, 11 July 2016 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I've now coded this - the only thing missing are the exact formula for resource points gained by converting an item, and the resource devaluation formula for increase in progress.

So far, I'm not satisfied with any really. I'm beginning to think coolness is a bad input value - it can only be used with guns, and the enemy gun selection process makes a mockery out of any order too. Additionally, ammo is a problem - we have to be able to value a single bullet, after all. This leads to problems in itself - we can't really differentiate between different calibers unless we somehow rate a caliber depending on all guns that use it - and later on a single enemy can carry a staggering 1K bullets, while early on it can be as low as 6.

Unhappy.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Militia require resources[message #346175 is a reply to message #346174] Mon, 11 July 2016 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
How about adding some sort of "infilation" based on game progress?
Re: Militia require resources[message #346176 is a reply to message #346174] Mon, 11 July 2016 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
Flugente wrote on Mon, 11 July 2016 12:44
I've now coded this - the only thing missing are the exact formula for resource points gained by converting an item, and the resource devaluation formula for increase in progress.

For weapons I'd say one item = 1 point for the according coolness level I proposed above. I factored in item status already.

For ammo can't you just let the player spend any magazine with >= 5 bullets left and gain 1 point per 5 bullets at the corresponding coolness level?

Example - we have:
1x .38 Speedloader (max size 6, coolness 1)
1x 9x19mm Pistol mag (mag size 15, coolness 1)
1x .40 S&W mag (mag size 14, coolness 2)
1x 7.62x39mm AP (mag size 30, coolness 4)
1x 7.62x54R AP (mag size 10, coolness 6)

We get these points at the corresponding coolness levels:
[1] = 4 (1 + 3)
[2] = 2
[3] = 0
[4] = 6
[5] = 0
[6] = 2
[7] = 0
[8] = 0
[9] = 0
[10] = 0

When we want to create militia we use the following base formula to get the amount of resource points from a certain coolness level:

required resource points = max(1, (current progress/10)) / max( 1, coolness level )

The higher our current progress level is the more points we would need from lower coolness levels. So if the above formula is for green militia at progress 60 we would need 6 points from coolness 1 for example which would equal 6x .38 Speedloader (6x 1 point) or 2x 9x19mm Pistol mags (2x 3 points). Of course a coolness 6 mag with 5 bullets would also suffice but we spend resource points from lowest coolness to highest. Higher rank militia require a higher amount of resources. I leave the precise formula up to you as well as modifications to above formula.
No manual devaluation needed in this case as the "devaluation" comes automatically with higher progress levels.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #346177 is a reply to message #346176] Mon, 11 July 2016 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor

 
Messages:431
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
My 2 cents... Maybe a solution would be a "Mission inventory panel" / "militia inventory panel" or whatever you will call it... Looks similar to the sector inventory panel, but with items you put there yourself.

You can already sell & discard weapons with alt-LMB ctrl-LMB, similarly you could reserve weapons for this inventory panel. Before you train some new militia, you will be prompted with this militia inventory panel to select the gear they will be equiped in a way similar to the restriction tabs used in the equipable militia system.

I realise in time this could be quite a big panel, and the option should remain to sell items, of course. Additionally, there could be a logistic delay to suggest "transport of gear by the locals".
Re: Militia require resources[message #346179 is a reply to message #346177] Mon, 11 July 2016 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
I strongly second Thor's idea,

in fact that is what I wanted to suggest for the whole inventory management / equip-able militia in general way back when first reading about that stuff, just hadn't been formulated it in finite form.

So, if the goal is to make the whole issue easier on player, this could be:
- there is a single invtory (think about it as de-located clone of sector inventory) all the militia anywhere are equiped from (further details may apply )
- player can use hot key / screen button to command equipment from any sector inventory to this militia armory, this takes fixed time regardless of location (further restrictions/malus may apply)

-- should player be able to get items back for use of his mercs? Probably should, but at some additional expense (of time or otherwise); (ab)using that might make item moving assignments obsolete... but it is preferable to balance it in a way that encourages player to manually move around anything (or most at least) he might actually want to use for mercs eventually.

Well, technically that is whole lot different idea than what discussed in this thread, sorry for that...
(but yes, after following the board for some half year, this finally get me registered happy)

- -

To contribute to the actual topic, I think you shouldn't stick to one gun one resource point from start on, but rather require like 10 "gun" points for green militia, while a revolver gives, say, 5 and shitty shotgun 8 or so. And that values most reasonably comes as new stat of the weapon itself... Well, but that then nearly defeats the spirit of this thing I guess.
Re: Militia require resources[message #346181 is a reply to message #346179] Mon, 11 July 2016 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:816
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
I third Thor's idea.




Arulco Vacations Blog

Arulco Vacations Bears Pit Forum

Re: Militia require resources[message #346189 is a reply to message #346181] Tue, 12 July 2016 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Sooooo... your idea amounts to the existing feature, except that now the player has to move every goddamn item militia should use to another inventory, which will require additional significant coding? How is that... better?



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Militia require resources[message #346190 is a reply to message #346189] Tue, 12 July 2016 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:816
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
For my part, I am quite satisfied with the way it is now with the exception that it is too time consuming (too much micro-managing) to move equipment from one town to another. I am not a fan of this proposed abstraction of resources because it seems it will remove a level of immersion and strategic planning in both the economic and military aspects of the game. I'd rather see an easier way to move things from one controlled town to another, and a way to have/train rebel support personnel to repair weapons & gear.

But that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.




Arulco Vacations Blog

Arulco Vacations Bears Pit Forum

Re: Militia require resources[message #346193 is a reply to message #346190] Tue, 12 July 2016 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
Flugente's original idea (at least how I understood it) was to modify militia training to require certain resources. This modification should be simple and easy to use. It should not create a new form of micromanagement that just wastes time. In the end do we really care if the militia is holding an AK-47 or a Colt M4? The system should allow us to trade unused resources (that we would sell otherwise) for resource points that we could use anytime for militia training. It shouldn't matter if the points came from the AK-47 or the Colt M4. At least that's how I see it. Using current progress and coolness values makes sure that old stuff gets rather useless over time. Ini based modifiers could provide means of modifying the speed at which they become useless so players can decide how hard/easy it is to pile up some resource points.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #346199 is a reply to message #346189] Tue, 12 July 2016 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
Both ideas are not that different,
I will call them PA for "points abstraction" and MA for "militia armory"

PA: player converts extra equipment into some abstract points
MA: player sets extra equipment aside for use by militia
- From player perspective the action is identical in practice

PA: there is some resources overview; such resources are needed to create militia
MA: there is some list of equipment militia can use, this list needs to be populated to create militia
- in both cases it one extra screen.

The militia armory might be kind of sector inventory (for immersion purposes one could even think about those items as moved to Omerta underground for later distribution on request), but it could as well be just a simple list containing nothing but ID and quantity.

PA: in order to create militia special resource points are spent, they are
armed with newly created equipment according to points spend.
MA: militia is armed with whatever items player gathered and sent to militia armory (upon creation, preferably automatically, with optional possibility to manually arm/rearm), equipment used is removed from armory.

- This is where things diverge heavily.
Frankly, MA can only have chance to function if militia remember what they are armed with. (Without knowing anything about code internals at the moment) I can't see why individual militia could not remember equipment assigned, while it is clear that full blown inventory is impractical, simple array of IDs shouldn't be more than 20 bytes per person or so... or are I'm fundamentally wrong somehow?

PA: fundamentally new system; offers inflation of militia price (in new resources) trough abstraction of equipment what is the biggest problem an drawback (but also can be seen as advantage)
MA: evolution of existent systems; militia never can use equipment player haven't ever seen. Trough abuse of optional feture to return items not in use to payer possession can handle mass movement of gear (for some price obviously). Some emergent technical problems may make harder to code.

[Updated on: Tue, 12 July 2016 16:54]

Re: Militia require resources[message #346200 is a reply to message #346174] Tue, 12 July 2016 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
Flugente wrote on Mon, 11 July 2016 13:44
I've now coded this - the only thing missing are the exact formula for resource points gained by converting an item, and the resource devaluation formula for increase in progress.


Essentially the Militia Armory idea answers the question with: do not convert anything, save and use exact list of items instead of some abstract points. It near the only thing that changes (from player perspective of course)

Well, then I guess the abstraction layer was the initial goal (or one of), but it also the hardest thing to do right from game design perspective I think (I mean, so that everyone happily agree).



Re: Militia require resources[message #346204 is a reply to message #346199] Tue, 12 July 2016 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
Enneagon wrote on Tue, 12 July 2016 15:53

MA: militia is armed with whatever items player gathered and sent to militia armory (upon creation, preferably automatically, with optional possibility to manually arm/rearm), equipment used is removed from armory.

- This is where things diverge heavily.
Frankly, MA can only have chance to function if militia remember what they are armed with. (Without knowing anything about code internals at the moment) I can't see why individual militia could not remember equipment assigned, while it is clear that full blown inventory is impractical, simple array of IDs shouldn't be more than 20 bytes per person or so... or are I'm fundamentally wrong somehow?

This is not how militia works. Militia is trained at a certain point and then equipment levels as the game progresses. If you'd keep the equipment that was originally used upon creation they would soon be fighting level 8 elite snipers and machine gunners with pistols. Yes, players can make militia use sector inventory but this is optional and should stay that way.

So what's the difference between converting items into points and creating a new "militia training inventory"? The first would be "simple" to code and easy to use just like pressing ALT + LMB for quick selling stuff. Points could be used anywhere on the map.
The inventory method had the advantage that we could place and remove items at will but there need to be restrictions so the system isn't abused to move items around. Also it requires more interface work and everybody hates that.

So it's basically a choice between "doable" and "not likely to happen".



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #346208 is a reply to message #346204] Wed, 13 July 2016 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
silversurfer wrote on Tue, 12 July 2016 20:20

This is not how militia works. Militia is trained at a certain point and then equipment levels as the game progresses. If you'd keep the equipment that was originally used upon creation they would soon be fighting level 8 elite snipers and machine gunners with pistols. Yes, players can make militia use sector inventory but this is optional and should stay that way.

Yes, Militia Armory is direct descendant/continuation of militia using sector inventory, with the difference you don't ever need to move any stuff around just for that purpose, instead you set it away (and can't use yourself anymore, at least not immediately). And yes, it makes little sense in context not currently including militia using sector inventory.
And yes, in this case player is fully responsible for anything militia uses at all times. This includes need to order them to rearm periodically.


silversurfer wrote on Tue, 12 July 2016 20:20

So what's the difference between converting items into points and creating a new "militia training inventory"? The first would be "simple" to code and easy to use just like pressing ALT + LMB for quick selling stuff. Points could be used anywhere on the map.

There no difference, except there are list of items instead of points. Or, if you want to think that way, a G3 gives you one G3 "point" for use by militia. It also can be used anywhere on the map.


silversurfer wrote on Tue, 12 July 2016 20:20

The inventory method had the advantage that we could place and remove items at will but there need to be restrictions so the system isn't abused to move items around. Also it requires more interface work and everybody hates that.

Yes, Militia Armory is more complicated feature, obviously, but I don't see how it creates that much more interface work altough there surely some of course.

Both alternatives of this system create new abuse that needs to be cut.

MA case it all centers around not letting equipment teleport around instantly, that can be addressed by requiring all activities using it to take time (such as: there time between item is added to militia armory and can be used, rearming can't be instant) and/or some additional penalties.
With right penalties I see no problem if someone uses it to move stuff for his own use, but I see the feature to get committed items back as fully optional altogether.

In Points Abstraction case it can and necessarily will lead to situations where one committed shitload of pistols (or whatever you find useless) and immediately get elite militia armed with G11 and bazookas (exaggerating here of course, but whatever you find cool stuff for them), and I can't see any way around that, the core problem is independent of how you set up abstraction (unless it is so complex that borders with full list of committed items... what leads to the alternative suggested, to not abstract it at all).
While in most cases it does not matter much (and one could think the incredibly awesome rebel management somehow succeeded to sell those pistols and buy the cool stuff instead) it can surely come up as viable exploit or immersion breaking annoyance at least.

silversurfer wrote on Tue, 12 July 2016 20:20

So it's basically a choice between "doable" and "not likely to happen".

Probably.

But I don't see those ideas as strongly either or, rather I would see point system as imperfect simplified alternative and step towards the Militia Armory what is logical evolution of current "militia use sector inventory" feature.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 July 2016 00:10]

Re: Militia require resources[message #346228 is a reply to message #346208] Thu, 14 July 2016 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
While I could argue with a lot of details on why MA is an absurd, impractical amount of work (especially for coding, but also for the player), I'm not going to code it, and nobody else will either, so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, I'm somewhat okay with the formulas I'm developing. Two status updates (work in progress, I do know the graphics can be improved):

http://i.imgur.com/D0tD5Pm.png
Loot from 32 enemies killed with progress 12 in Drassen Mine. Values are gun/armour/misc. resource value (of entire stack). Seems I wrongly attributed LBE to misc. instead of armour, will correct, but I'm too lazy to upload new pics aww

http://i.imgur.com/Qx0YJV1.png
These are the gained resources. Seems okay for 32 enemies - some of the guns were of higher coolness (MP5A4. two SPAS-12, some cooler pistols). Using silversurfer's idea of green militia needing 1 gun, promotion to regular needing 1 gun + 1 armour, and promotion to elite needing 1 gun + 1 armour + 1 misc, we see that we could train 32 green militia from this (apart from missing volunteers). Quite a few regulars too, but not that many elites, really.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Militia require resources[message #346229 is a reply to message #346228] Thu, 14 July 2016 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
A few thoughts:

- From the pics it looks like you are going to attribute ammo to the guns counter. No separate ammo counter? Is that correct?
- Are there items that apply to several categories? If not I think it will be sufficient to just display the corresponding category amount on the item instead of all three categories if two of the numbers will be zero anyway.
- I assume you will add a hotkey to show the possible amount of points on the items in order not to clutter the interface in default view? Hotkey + LMB will then convert the first item in the stack into points?
- A little color coding for the possible points could help to see at a glance how many items one has from which category.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #346237 is a reply to message #346229] Thu, 14 July 2016 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
  • Yes, guns/armour/misc are the only resources.
  • Attachments might attribute to a different category - I evaluate them by their attachment class. Attached grenades/rilfe slings come to mind, but not much else. It might be reasonable to only show positive points here, and to use a different colour for each category (and to use that colour on the map too).
  • Atm this only shows while you press the [Alt] key (while selling is off), click on item to convert it then. Still need to find a better key.
  • Yeah, I'll likely colour the name in te abovementioned colour and the amount different according to how much we have (like done for volunteers).



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Militia require resources[message #346238 is a reply to message #346237] Thu, 14 July 2016 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2156
Registered:May 2009
Flugente wrote on Thu, 14 July 2016 12:17

[*] Atm this only shows while you press the [Alt] key (while selling is off), click on item to convert it then. Still need to find a better key.

ALT would be a logical choice. Press ALT + LMB to sell or ALT + RMB to convert into resource points. You'd just need to find a nice layout to display both price and resource points on each item. You could also make ALT + Shift + RMB to convert a whole stack or ALT + Y + RMB to convert all items of the same type if you want to make it work like quick selling works.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Militia require resources[message #346252 is a reply to message #346238] Fri, 15 July 2016 22:18 Go to previous message
Flugente

 
Messages:3138
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Feature has been committed.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Previous Topic: Another competing faction. - People's Revolutionary Front of Arulco
Next Topic: Distance-based SAM site coverage
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Sep 22 21:52:59 EEST 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01410 seconds