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Proedit Question[message #347106] Sat, 01 October 2016 05:56 Go to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Hi Guys. Just a quick question here. The entry "recruit" in the hidden attributes section of proedit shows values from 0 to 220 (Terry).
I figured a zero means not recruit-able but does a higher number just means harder to recruit?

Perko for example is an NPC but under recruit you see a value of 100 (same with Darrel), but all salary values are at zero.
That's why i thought certain numbers might have a meaning.

Anybody an idea?
Re: Proedit Question[message #347117 is a reply to message #347106] Sun, 02 October 2016 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SchmittLenin

 
Messages:31
Registered:August 2015
Check what characters have a zero : If they're non-recruitable characters in general it probably means you're right. If not, well, its just another mystery to add to the clusterfuck that is the JA2 engine



Lurking is nice
Re: Proedit Question[message #347119 is a reply to message #347117] Sun, 02 October 2016 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Thanks. I can live with that for right now but i agree to the clusterfuck thing.
Re: Proedit Question[message #347120 is a reply to message #347119] Sun, 02 October 2016 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
Well, I would wait to see if someone with real knowledge of this code looks in. Not at the game myself so no opinion.

Doesn't the appropriate XML file have some documentation on this?
Re: Proedit Question[message #347121 is a reply to message #347120] Sun, 02 October 2016 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
This is not a mystery at all. In proedit, the Merc-NPC approaches: Friendly/Direct/Threaten/Recruit refer to the tags <usApproachFactorFriendly>, <usApproachFactorDirect>, <usApproachFactorThreaten>, and <usApproachFactorRecruit> in MercProfiles.xml. These are the base values for these kind of dialogue options. The higher the value, the better the merc will be when using these approaches. Depending on approach, circumstance and other things, other factors, like personality and gear, can of course also affect the outcome, so it isn't just this value.

If you want tips on how to make NPCs recruitable, afaik edmortimer is currently very active with his Arulco Vacations mod and has added more RPCs, so he can likely detail what files you need to change.

On another note, while there is quite a bit of blame that can be put onto the game engine, I fail to see how unclear descriptions in a third-party tool not required for the game are a mistake of the engine.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Proedit Question[message #347125 is a reply to message #347121] Sun, 02 October 2016 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
As far as I have seen the "recruit" entry in ProEdit isn't even used in the game code. Only the approaches that Flugente already mentioned are relevant. Besides that JA2 1.13 uses XML per default for merc profiles so ProEdit won't change anything.
In order to make a character recruitable you probably need to modify the merc profile and his NPC script.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Proedit Question[message #347127 is a reply to message #347125] Sun, 02 October 2016 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Thanks for the reply's guys.

I didn't want to change anything, rather categorize all characters of the game into their functions in the game like RPC, NPC, EPC etc.
And then i was wondering if i can use ProEdit to distinguish which characters could be recruited because i did not know all the faces i extracted from the face.slf. The rest was just interpreting what i read.

Flugente: So your are saying that i would find what i am looking for in the entries of that xml file you described? And i thought Proedit was from Sirtek?

Re: Proedit Question[message #347128 is a reply to message #347127] Sun, 02 October 2016 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:858
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
I didn't want to change anything, rather categorize all characters of the game into their functions in the game like RPC, NPC, EPC etc.


In MercProfiles.xml every character has a <Type> tag:

<!-- Type -->

<!-- (0) None (not used) -->
<!-- (1) AIM -->
<!-- (2) MERC -->
<!-- (3) RPC -->
<!-- (4) NPC -->
<!-- (5) Vehicle -->
<!-- (6) IMP -->

The only EPCs are John & Mary Kulba, Skyrider, & Joey Graham -- IIRC.




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Re: Proedit Question[message #347130 is a reply to message #347121] Sun, 02 October 2016 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SchmittLenin

 
Messages:31
Registered:August 2015
Flugente wrote on Sun, 02 October 2016 15:10
On another note, while there is quite a bit of blame that can be put onto the game engine, I fail to see how unclear descriptions in a third-party tool not required for the game are a mistake of the engine.


Not calling it a mistake; Was just making a point about how weird the engine seems to be about certain things



Lurking is nice
Re: Proedit Question[message #347133 is a reply to message #347127] Mon, 03 October 2016 01:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
Bobby R. wrote on Sun, 02 October 2016 20:54
And i thought Proedit was from Sirtek?


I would like to stress a thing: JA2 1.12 (the last original Sirtek version) and JA2 1.13 (the community version this forum is mostly devoted for) are by now quite a different beasts (as expected after decade of code changes).

If you happen by chance to be fiddling with 1.12 use Proedit.
If you are in 1.13 Proedit have no value, you want to go over XML files (in notepad or code editor of your choice)
Re: Proedit Question[message #347139 is a reply to message #347133] Mon, 03 October 2016 07:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Alright, i think i got all the answers that i required. Thanks guys, that gives me an understanding of the situation.

PS: ED + Maria, Angels sister.
Re: Proedit Question[message #347163 is a reply to message #347139] Wed, 05 October 2016 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Mhhh. So MercProfiles.XML from the Data-1.13 Folder shows <uiIndex>81 as being a NPC [4] (Ricardo "Rat" Grimaldo) but a bit down at the <sSalary> Tag it shows an entry of 300. I am just confused on how both values can be used at the same time while being contraindicating.

PS: uiIndex 74 Perko is an RPC [3] with sSalary 0 while being a merchant? suprised Was somebody high at work? Maybe that's tolerated in Canada haha.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 October 2016 07:31]

Re: Proedit Question[message #347165 is a reply to message #347163] Wed, 05 October 2016 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Nevermind those tags. They aren't relevant for these characters anyway.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Proedit Question[message #347200 is a reply to message #347165] Fri, 07 October 2016 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Why is there so much "not relevant" stuff in the game dir? I mean if it is not relevant.

[Updated on: Fri, 07 October 2016 07:46]

Re: Proedit Question[message #347201 is a reply to message #347200] Fri, 07 October 2016 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
Because the data has to be defined so the game can read it and people can change it if they want to mod the game. That's why so much data has been externalized from binary game files.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Proedit Question[message #347202 is a reply to message #347201] Fri, 07 October 2016 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
Different data are relevant in different contexts.

Tags that define one thing or character may be irrelevant to another, like salary for npc you can't hire anyway, but those can (or even need) to be defined nevertheless.

Further, there dozens of optional systems that can be switched on/off/between in game setup or ini files or even xml itself, many of those have datasets only relevant if specific feature or variation of it is chosen. Like, there whole infrastructure unique to NCTH as well as tags that only relevant in OCTH.

So if something seems to have no impact it most probably not the right context you try it out.
Re: Proedit Question[message #347226 is a reply to message #347202] Sat, 08 October 2016 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Initially i wanted to sort all characters into categories like npc rpc epc ect. and i was wondering where I would get this information from. Ed pointed out to check the MercProfile.xml which i did. But a NPC should never have another salary value then zero at any point in the game right?
I don't want to mod anything right now just organizing. So I guess I reformulate my question here, where can i check accurate declarations of character types from JA2? happy
Re: Proedit Question[message #347228 is a reply to message #347226] Sat, 08 October 2016 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
As the value is not used for NPCs, it doesn't really matter. It might be set, it might not be.

If you really want an up-top-date description on the details of what each tag does, nothing beats reading the code ;) As to your matter, look at the xml with an editor, like Notepad++. At the very beginning are comments that describe some tags, the very first ones solving your current problem.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Proedit Question[message #347232 is a reply to message #347228] Sun, 09 October 2016 03:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
How can "where can i check accurate declarations of character types from JA2?" become

"If you really want an up-top-date description on the details of what each tag does" ? ;)

This will be my last try big grin ....

JA2 1.13 has a bunch of new characters and some of them i have never encountered (don't hit me now) ....
.... and i don't want to play all mods from B to E to find out what there are doing.

So i check the MercProfile.xml and @ Flugente, <salary> or <sex> tags are kind of self explanatory, would you agree?,
and what i am getting here is that i should just go with what the tag says that declares who is a EPC, NPC or RPC and should
just ignore the rest. But beside that, i was curious why there is "unclean" entries like <Salary>300</Salary> for NPC's when there should be something like this <Salary>0<Salary>?

[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2016 03:19]

Re: Proedit Question[message #347233 is a reply to message #347232] Sun, 09 October 2016 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:858
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
But beside that, i was curious why there is "unclean" entries like <Salary>300</Salary> for NPC's when there should be something like this <Salary>0<Salary>?


Well . . . probably for a number of different reasons depending on character and tag. In this instance, perhaps some modder at some point was going to make Rat recruitable (as I intend to do at some point) and had access to change the official XMLs . . . or perhaps it is just an error that was never caught or was ignored because it did not impact anything. You will find a number of 'errors/typos' throughout the XMLs that do not impact anything because the game code will ignore it or use the default value. Remember also that this mod (v1.13) has been in production, if I may use the term, for a very long time, and a host of modders have worked on it over the years.

Quote:
just go with what the tag says that declares who is a EPC, NPC or RPC


(edit: IGNORE THIS RESPONSE) Yes. Because that tag is NOT ignored by the game code and DOES define that particular role for that particular character.

You can use http://jaggedalliance.wikia.com/wiki/Jagged_Alliance_2 as a base for understanding each character -- but understand that it does not take into consideration a lot of the newer aspects of v1.13. However, for information on a character's biography and role it is a good source.

[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2016 06:02]





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Re: Proedit Question[message #347236 is a reply to message #347233] Sun, 09 October 2016 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia

Bobby R. wrote on Wed, 05 October 2016 07:16

PS: uiIndex 74 Perko is an RPC [3] with sSalary 0 while being a merchant? suprised Was somebody high at work? Maybe that's tolerated in Canada haha.


The only thing strange here, I didn't know Perko can be recruited. If that really the case he apparently would join for free (as all the rebels do). Someone being merchant doesn't mean he can't be recruited (look at Devin for vanilla example).

I'm not sure but think, marking someone rpc on itself don't automatically make him recruitable, the function should be prescribed in character script as well. So this might be an error indeed (not checked files myself rigt now, going from what written here).


Re: Proedit Question[message #347237 is a reply to message #347236] Sun, 09 October 2016 04:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:858
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
I'm not sure but think, marking someone rpc on itself don't automatically make him recruitable, the function should be prescribed in character script as well. So this might be an error indeed (not checked files myself rigt now, going from what written here).


You are correct, the script needs a recruitable option defined (along with all the related voice files, & etc.). Ignore my earlier comment that the tag does indeed define the character's role.


EDIT: And, yes, Perko is recruitable in some mods . . . but not Vanilla or v1.13.

[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2016 04:24]





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Re: Proedit Question[message #347238 is a reply to message #347236] Sun, 09 October 2016 04:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
Alright everybody, i am 100% satisfied with the answers and i have all the information i needed.
I thank for everybody's participation. happy

PS: "perhaps it is just an error that was never caught or was ignored because it did not impact anything"
thanks for clarifying that for me. I don't think that behavior should be part of future JA2 developments happy

Enneagon: Indeed RPC and merchant don't contraindicate each other and i forgot about the rebel style rpc. Thanks for pointing that out.
Re: Proedit Question[message #347245 is a reply to message #347233] Sun, 09 October 2016 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2207
Registered:May 2009
edmortimer wrote on Sun, 09 October 2016 02:41

Well . . . probably for a number of different reasons depending on character and tag. In this instance, perhaps some modder at some point was going to make Rat recruitable (as I intend to do at some point) and had access to change the official XMLs . . . or perhaps it is just an error that was never caught or was ignored because it did not impact anything.

In that particular case it was Sirtech who set a daily salary of 300 bucks in their Prof.dat which was then exported to XML. As we can't recruit Rat anyway this data has no effect. So simply move on. Nothing to see here.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Proedit Question[message #347249 is a reply to message #347245] Sun, 09 October 2016 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
@ Silversurfer

So you are suggesting that this code relic's originates from sirtek, which makes sense since they had time stress.
And i guess the same counts for the modding community since nobody pays them.

Thanks for your help so far but i will decide for myself when to move on. ;) I haven't done so much coding with games but JA2 1.13 seems like it could use a long bath, a massage and some mudpacks just talking about the file structures and mentioned code relics. And if the 1.13 modding crew would have cared a bit more about order then i would have probably not asked the questions because it would be self-explanatory. Before you start a journey you should decide where you want to go in what way and how long before you start and i don't feel that was done with JA2 1.13. Its not a tragedy it's just annoying because i have to do that now because i can't develop a Mod with that chaos. ;)

So this hole article is a good example on what can happen if you tolerate contraindicating code.
Anal people will just ask you a bunch of anal questions until an anal answer arises haha.

[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2016 19:54]

Re: Proedit Question[message #347250 is a reply to message #347249] Sun, 09 October 2016 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
We are very well aware that the basically the entire code could use an update. However changing existing data structures is always painful to modders.

For example, changing tags in the xmls (not adding new ones, changing old ones!) has the immediate result that existing xmls in all mods won't work with the new exes from that point on. You can point that out as much as you like - even if modders themselves update their mods immediately and instruct people on which mod versions to use with which exe version, there will be tons of people who use older data with the now incompatible exe and then will complain that the game suddenly doesn't work (optional with a 'why don't you people get your shit together?' statement on more or less friendly wording). This will happen for several years.

For me, that is a core issue with xmls. I would really like to rework, say, MercProfiles.xml and AmmoTypes.xml... but I have no desire to deal with tons of complaints that my changes break ProEdit or the xml editor or whatever. Which they would, because that's what happens when you change data structures.

Anyway, rant over, move along ;)



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Proedit Question[message #347253 is a reply to message #347250] Sun, 09 October 2016 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
Maybe it's time for 1.14
Re: Proedit Question[message #347259 is a reply to message #347253] Sun, 09 October 2016 23:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
So what would help you more in that case;

a} a converter that converts older mods into the new "whatever we come up with" structure?
b} or if i convince a large proportion of the older-mod creators to rework their mods to the new "whatever we come up with" structure?
c} or as Gambigobilla said a 1.14 kind of release (incompatible with older mods)?
d} or as Gambigobilla said a 1.14 kind of release (with old-mod converter included)?

I know it sounds a bit fancy but in my eye's its just about making decision. Once we decided, its easier to focus the energy.

PS: OK I see now how its not the 1.13 Crew's fault. Like Flugente explained, there is just too much version out there. My apology's.

[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2016 23:41]

Re: Proedit Question[message #347306 is a reply to message #347259] Fri, 14 October 2016 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3165
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Given the huge number of xml changes over the years, not to mention all the times new necessary files were added/old ones removed/files moved I see no simple tool to magically fix all mods. Most mods are simply so old that those who made them are no loner around - and the current modders either stick to a fixed version, gradually update their mods from time to time.

If in doubt, simply follow installation instructions of a mod and use the supported version the mod requires.



Saren threw his head back and screamed in impotent fury, before falling to his throne, head in his claws, trembling in horrified disbelief.

Then he heard a faint chime as Sovereign subscribed to her ECHO channel.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Proedit Question[message #347315 is a reply to message #347306] Fri, 14 October 2016 17:42 Go to previous message
Bobby R.

 
Messages:27
Registered:September 2016
SO i think the best thing would be a to make a new base Mod of Ja2 and i would just give that project the name Ja2 Lite. you have to make compromises once in a while.
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