Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Bug Reports » NCtH "bug"
NCtH "bug"[message #347418] Sat, 29 October 2016 20:56 Go to next message
Tyxe

 
Messages:74
Registered:May 2012
Location: France
Don't really know how to call it because it's an odd NCtH behaviour that never have been corrected but is there a way to make mercs with better agility spend less action points instead of more when using the burst/auto fire mode ?
Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347419 is a reply to message #347418] Sat, 29 October 2016 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2084
Registered:May 2009
I'd say that this isn't related to NCTH at all. AP to fire a certain gun are based on the 100 AP system. A merc with higher agility and more AP has to spend more than a merc that has less AP. Agile mercs can move faster but they can't shoot a gun faster.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347431 is a reply to message #347419] Sun, 30 October 2016 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
This is not a bug, is older than NCTH and even 100 ap system, that is original vanilla behaviour, and based on design decision on how to represent time as action points. And not even unique to Jaged Alliance at that, btw.

The idea is:
- a turn represents some fixed time interval;
- more agile person divide turn (fixed time interval) into more action points;
- a gun as such take fixed time to fire;
- thus, more agile person needs more ap to fire, as the proportion of turn time interval to fire remain the same.

The core assumption here is that it's fixed time to handle a gun, not affected by person agility or other stats (usually mean as the mechanical action of the gun itself), thus the number of shots a gun can make per turn never change regardless of who uses it. It can be disputed how accurate and applicable such assumption is, but it's quite popular (as often aid in game balance besides other things) and is used by original JA, and never reversed.

PS: this is also explained in the official manual of the game.

[Updated on: Sun, 30 October 2016 20:28]

Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347440 is a reply to message #347431] Mon, 31 October 2016 07:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1188
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russia
Enneagon wrote on Sun, 30 October 2016 22:54
The core assumption here is that it's fixed time to handle a gun, not affected by person agility or other stats (usually mean as the mechanical action of the gun itself), thus the number of shots a gun can make per turn never change regardless of who uses it. It can be disputed how accurate and applicable such assumption is, but it's quite popular (as often aid in game balance besides other things) and is used by original JA, and never reversed.

Not exactly true in 1.13, because:
; Percentage APs reduction needed to fire LMGs on burst or autofire modes
FIRING_SPEED_BONUS_LMGS = 10

; Increased speed by percentage when firing 
GRENADE_LAUNCHERS_FIRE_AP_REDUCTION = 20
ROCKET_LAUNCHERS_FIRE_AP_REDUCTION = 20

; Percentage APs reduction to fire shotguns
FIRING_SPEED_BONUS_SHOTGUNS = 10

; Percentage APs reduction to fire pistols and revolvers
; You should consider that "15" means that expert gunslinger has the same bonus to firing 
; speed as if you would place reflex sights on your gun. While no pistols are allowed to mount
; reflex sights, this gives them at least some compensation
FIRING_SPEED_BONUS_PISTOLS = 15




Stable 7609+fix (21.05.2017)
Stable 7609+AI (r415 29.04.2017)
Improved weapon sounds
Youtube channel


Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347443 is a reply to message #347440] Mon, 31 October 2016 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2084
Registered:May 2009
Yes, the traits counteract the rules. That's why they are so useful. big grin



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347444 is a reply to message #347443] Mon, 31 October 2016 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1188
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russia
silversurfer wrote on Mon, 31 October 2016 13:10
Yes, the traits counteract the rules. That's why they are so useful. big grin

The only way someone can physically shoot a gun faster is by aiming it faster, and it's already covered by reduced aim clicks needed for full aim in NCTH, so it's simply gun magic :-)

[Updated on: Mon, 31 October 2016 10:25]




Stable 7609+fix (21.05.2017)
Stable 7609+AI (r415 29.04.2017)
Improved weapon sounds
Youtube channel


Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347446 is a reply to message #347444] Mon, 31 October 2016 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3740
Registered:July 2009
Attack cost includes more than pulling the trigger, there's also pointing it in the general direction of the enemy and recovery from recoil, which the traits influence.



Need help or just want to kill some time? Visit the Bear's Pit IRC ChannelNote: Say 'Hi' and be patient, it may take a few minutes for someone to react.
Latest 1.13 Builds
My Inbox is for IMPORTANT stuff, NOT random queries about the game.


Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347447 is a reply to message #347444] Mon, 31 October 2016 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Enneagon

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2016
Location: Latvia
sevenfm wrote on Mon, 31 October 2016 10:18
silversurfer wrote on Mon, 31 October 2016 13:10
Yes, the traits counteract the rules. That's why they are so useful. big grin

The only way someone can physically shoot a gun faster is by aiming it faster, and it's already covered by reduced aim clicks needed for full aim in NCTH, so it's simply gun magic :-)


Magic or not, what we use as the base assumption is that turn is fixed length of time.

Now compare that to a system where it is action point that is fixed length of time, so time itself is effectively measured in ap units. Guns have fixed amount of ap to fire, and person with more ap doesn't run faster but simply have more seconds to spare. Turn time is not fixed and every actor in fact moves along different individual time line (one could wave that away saying it somehow compensates during enemy turn or whatever). As a bonus, one could more or less safety directly transfer unused ap to the next turn. Btw, it still wouldn't be possible to spend less ap for firing a burst without some sort of gun magic (or arguing that declared cost include more than mechanical action of the gun).

Yes, that is very much not what we use here, and I in no way suggest we should, but I believe it might be the difference between those two paradigms what the OP was not aware of or confused with.

[Updated on: Mon, 31 October 2016 18:39]

Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347485 is a reply to message #347447] Sat, 05 November 2016 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tyxe

 
Messages:74
Registered:May 2012
Location: France
Thanks for the explanations, it makes sense to me now and was indeed explained in the manual (damn i used to RTFM !) .
By the way,i tried only briefly OCtH but i noticed you could shoot at maximum accuracy more times than with NCtH,am i correct ?(i initially though NCtH make only shooting harder without affecting number of time you could shoot).
Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347486 is a reply to message #347485] Sat, 05 November 2016 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2084
Registered:May 2009
How many times one can shoot at full aim level depends on a number of parameters including aim level settings in Ja2_Options.ini, traits, weapon + attachments and the CTH system used. If you want to compare the two systems you'd need to use the same merc with same traits, same weapon and same settings.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: NCtH "bug"[message #347529 is a reply to message #347486] Sun, 13 November 2016 13:02 Go to previous message
88vs1984
Messages:5
Registered:August 2015
Location: Belarus
If I put a sandbag to a roof, mercs think that it is situated on a floor (not on a roof) and can jump through this place. Also in this situation marcs can jump through walls in and out
Here is a map Omerta A9 with such bug yadi.sk/d/7-sbcoA-yWciM

[Updated on: Sun, 13 November 2016 13:02]

Previous Topic: 1.13 build 7609 Dialogue & faces extremely glitched
Next Topic: Bug with Hamous and ice cream truck.
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat May 27 05:18:24 EEST 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.00822 seconds