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Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350072] Thu, 15 June 2017 02:28 Go to next message
Kugelblitz

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2017
Hello Guys,

I switched from JA2 1.05 which I had a lot of fun to JA 1.13 (cause of the Zombies, new weapons, equipment and more)
As there is no Savegame converter and I could not take my well trained MECs with me I used a Hexeditor to give me a little benefit financially wise.
So I could equip my MECs well.
The MECs also have pretty high Marksmenship Values most over 95.
Still I am struggling a lot. They Miss the shots most of the time and even when they hit they hurt the Enemies very little - one digit Values.

I made a short video to illustrate it.
Hope you can tell me what my fault is.

The "shot" is around 1 Minute in the Video.

www.dropbox.com/s/4enhwtox2ghguzd/ja1.13.mp4?dl=0

Sorry I could not post as a link cause I have not written more than 10 replies yet.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 June 2017 02:30]

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350073 is a reply to message #350072] Thu, 15 June 2017 05:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Multihog

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2017
Looks like you're using new chance to hit (NCTH). I myself gave up on it a long time ago for this very reason. The lack of accuracy is frustrating. I'm not sure if this is how NCTH is supposed to function, but I remember it being very inaccurate compared to the vanilla system. I rather have my super OP OCTH late game snipers than NCTH mercs, who can't aim even when maxed out.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 June 2017 06:02]

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350076 is a reply to message #350073] Thu, 15 June 2017 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2281
Registered:May 2009
There are several reasons for the bad aim shown in the video. The prime reason is that you are trying to aim at an enemy that is ~3 tiles away from the shooter using a 7x scope. This causes a massive penalty. It will go much better if you switched aim mode to the reflex sight (using the "." key). At this range you may even have good luck firing from hip. Scopes have a minimum range and when used below that there is an increasing penalty. Minimum range is scope factor * NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE / 10 * SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER. The latter values are taken from CTHConstants.ini. With 1.13 default values a 7x scope would have a minimum range of 7 * 70 / 10 * 0.7 = 34 tiles. The penalty starts at this range * AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD. The default for the latter is 0.8 which would provide an increasing penalty below 34 * 0.8 = 27 tiles. That's why I only use 7x or stronger scopes with my snipers. The AR/LMG mercs get a 4x scope and reflex sight so they can use their weapon at average and close range. Snipers get an SMG for close range combat.

On top of that the shooter has very poor dexterity which was lowered by a critical hit or disease maybe? Shooting is not only affected by marksmanship but also by experience, dexterity and wisdom. The weighting of each can also be found in CTHConstants.ini.

Btw. NCTH is supposed to work differently than OCTH and it is supposed to be more inaccurate. It's working just fine. It just takes some time to get acquainted to it and learn how it works. People need to decide if they want to run the "sniper squad 99% head shot OCTH exploit game" or the "more balanced and realistic but sometimes WTF did he just miss? NCTH game". Our mercs are not robots. They are under pressure and make mistakes in the heat of battle. That's why even the best trained soldier misses in combat - in reality and not in games. Just select the system that suits your play style best but I encourage you to use NCTH. I found OCTH to be really boring after some point when I got good gear.

PS: When the inner aperture doesn't decrease anymore there is no use in spending additional action points on aiming.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 June 2017 10:41]



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350083 is a reply to message #350076] Thu, 15 June 2017 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Multihog

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2017
silversurfer wrote on Thu, 15 June 2017 10:39
There are several reasons for the bad aim shown in the video. The prime reason is that you are trying to aim at an enemy that is ~3 tiles away from the shooter using a 7x scope. This causes a massive penalty. It will go much better if you switched aim mode to the reflex sight (using the "." key). At this range you may even have good luck firing from hip. Scopes have a minimum range and when used below that there is an increasing penalty. Minimum range is scope factor * NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE / 10 * SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER. The latter values are taken from CTHConstants.ini. With 1.13 default values a 7x scope would have a minimum range of 7 * 70 / 10 * 0.7 = 34 tiles. The penalty starts at this range * AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD. The default for the latter is 0.8 which would provide an increasing penalty below 34 * 0.8 = 27 tiles. That's why I only use 7x or stronger scopes with my snipers. The AR/LMG mercs get a 4x scope and reflex sight so they can use their weapon at average and close range. Snipers get an SMG for close range combat.

On top of that the shooter has very poor dexterity which was lowered by a critical hit or disease maybe? Shooting is not only affected by marksmanship but also by experience, dexterity and wisdom. The weighting of each can also be found in CTHConstants.ini.

Btw. NCTH is supposed to work differently than OCTH and it is supposed to be more inaccurate. It's working just fine. It just takes some time to get acquainted to it and learn how it works. People need to decide if they want to run the "sniper squad 99% head shot OCTH exploit game" or the "more balanced and realistic but sometimes WTF did he just miss? NCTH game". Our mercs are not robots. They are under pressure and make mistakes in the heat of battle. That's why even the best trained soldier misses in combat - in reality and not in games. Just select the system that suits your play style best but I encourage you to use NCTH. I found OCTH to be really boring after some point when I got good gear.

PS: When the inner aperture doesn't decrease anymore there is no use in spending additional action points on aiming.

Damn, your post makes me want to give NCTH another chance. OCTH really is getting kinda predictable when using the best gear. It's practically impossible to ever miss with good sniper rifles and 10x scopes. There's also little point in having a backup weapon when the 10x scope sniper delivers headshots from point blank range just fine with minimum AP used.

Btw, does enabling NCTH also affect enemy accuracy? I mean, would I just nerf myself by using NCTH, and the enemy would stay as they were with OCTH?

[Updated on: Thu, 15 June 2017 21:02]

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350086 is a reply to message #350083] Thu, 15 June 2017 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2281
Registered:May 2009
Enemy soldiers, NPCs and militia use the same calculations. However, sometimes players believe that the enemy is "cheating" and gets better results. One simple reason for that is that the enemy almost always outnumbers you and delivers more lead in your direction so with increased number of bullets there is also a higher chance that some merc gets hit. Cover is very important. There are also some ini options that give the enemy some bonuses based on difficulty or soldier type. I'd say not to try out NCTH with a higher difficulty than "Experienced" as long as you aren't used to the system. "Expert" and "Insane" are for masochistic people in my opinion. ;-)
The enemy probably also have slightly better stats than the average merc which helps them as well. On the other hand over time you get better gear than they do and develop the merc's skills so the advantage shifts to the player's end in my opinion.

I can understand that some players get frustrated in the early stages of the game with poor mercs and crappy gear but don't let that discourage you.

I have been playing NCTH since the first version came out and it has been improved considerably over time. Some still find it too difficult but I believe it's just fine. Combat feels more lively with lots of bullets flying through the air and since all parties miss a lot it's not unfair at all.


Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350087 is a reply to message #350086] Fri, 16 June 2017 00:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Multihog

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2017
silversurfer wrote on Thu, 15 June 2017 23:11
Enemy soldiers, NPCs and militia use the same calculations.

That's good to hear.

Well then, it's time to give NCTH another go. Sounds like it has a fair amount more depth than OCTH. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350088 is a reply to message #350087] Fri, 16 June 2017 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kugelblitz

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2017
Thanks Guys for the replies.

I think the main reason, apart from the 7x Scope (thanks for the hint silversurfer) was my Nightvision goggles. I found out you can put them on the helmet.
Somehow I thought that there is just a slot and that the MECs use them when ever needed. But taking them off helped a lot.

I was not aware that you have to switch scopes manually.
Thanks also for the tip with the inner Aperture and the action Points spend on aiming.



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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350090 is a reply to message #350088] Fri, 16 June 2017 07:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Multihog

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2017
Kugelblitz wrote on Fri, 16 June 2017 01:54
Thanks Guys for the replies.
I think the main reason, apart from the 7x Scope (thanks for the hint silversurfer) was my Nightvision goggles. I found out you can put them on the helmet.
Somehow I thought that there is just a slot and that the MECs use them when ever needed. But taking them off helped a lot.

In 1.13, Ctrl + N switches between NV goggles and sunglasses automatically depending on the time of the day. Very useful. thumbs up

[Updated on: Fri, 16 June 2017 07:36]

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350094 is a reply to message #350090] Fri, 16 June 2017 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kugelblitz

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2017
Hey Multihog,
yeah thats really really useful.
Thanks You for the Tip.

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350113 is a reply to message #350094] Mon, 19 June 2017 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ableton

 
Messages:7
Registered:June 2017
Location: Spain
 Ye, what he (silversurfer) said. Sorry, couldnt resist ROFL

Although, seeing your weapons state of (dis)repair, I dont think you deserve any help! Shaaaame!

But yeah, even my 4x auto wepn toons pack a CQB; a P90, groza, M4A1 etc with a reflex/cobra.

Kinda silly if you think about it, because even if you have a sniper rifle with a 10x, and a guy comes around the corner, you should still be able to hip fire with reasonable accuracy.
Because in those situations you wouldnt bring the weapon in a shoulder position. 5+ meters ok, but 1 or 2 tiles away is just frustrating. angry

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350121 is a reply to message #350072] Mon, 19 June 2017 21:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
xcorps121169

 
Messages:8
Registered:June 2017
Location: Missouri
 I'm not real crazy about the NCTH accuracy either. It's kinda weak that a 90 mksman merc crouching with a P90 in perfect condition and attachments can't hit a prone immobile enemy in 4 max AP shots over 3 turns. I agree that the OTCH was too friendly, but NCTH goes too far. That same merc (It's Shadow) misses 80-90% of the time shooting with surprise from NVG4 range at night on stationary enemies using any of the various integral silenced sniper rifles. I've tried 4x, 7x, and 10x scopes. I've tried iron sights and ACOG. He has no better luck during the daytime with sunglasses either. I've tried the M24, an M14 outfitted for long range, the M82, the SR25, and the M21. Doctor Q with an M16 on burst is probably 3-4 times more lethal. I dismissed Scope because she was a waste of a slot with a long gun. Out of 5 shots at more than 6 tiles she didn't hit squat. She was 10x more effective with a USAS12 because of the suppression.



What can we tweak in the .ini to bump things up a little? I don't want successive head 'splodies from 30 tiles. I also don't want a squad armed with only shotguns, SMG's and LMG's.

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350122 is a reply to message #350121] Mon, 19 June 2017 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1524
Registered:December 2012
Location: Under the Mountain
 You can try these settings in CTHConstants.ini
BASE_EXP = 1.0
BASE_MARKS = 4.0
BASE_WIS = 1.0
BASE_DEX = 4.0

BASE_STANDING_STANCE = 2.0
BASE_CROUCHING_STANCE = 2.5
BASE_PRONE_STANCE = 3.0

AIM_EXP = 1.0
AIM_MARKS = 8.0
AIM_WIS = 2.0
AIM_DEX = 1.0

AIM_DRAW_COST = 0.5
AIM_STANDING_STANCE = 1.5
AIM_CROUCHING_STANCE = 1.0
AIM_PRONE_STANCE = 0.5

Also if you don't like too big penalty for scopes at close range, set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE to -2.0 or even -1.0.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 June 2017 22:40]



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r688) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube
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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350123 is a reply to message #350122] Mon, 19 June 2017 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
xcorps121169

 
Messages:8
Registered:June 2017
Location: Missouri
 Thanks Sevenfm, I didn't want to go around changing numbers willy-nilly without some idea of what I was doing. Appreciate the post.

Edit:
So I played a couple hours last night with those changes and a few hours today. It's much improved. There's plenty of "oh crap" moments when you miss a shot you absolutely needed to hit with, but there's also a reasonable certainty of max aim snipers getting a hit. The high Mksmn Mercs actually feel like they have the skill in the 90's. Buns is a reliable long gunner, but I don't want her in CQB. I hired back Scope and she's effective enough with the VSS to put a solo or pair of bad guys out of commission but she's weak against groups of 3-4, just like it should be. Shadow and my stealthy IMP are a pretty effective pair with Spider as overwatch.

All is well in Arulco.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 June 2017 00:34]

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350328 is a reply to message #350123] Fri, 14 July 2017 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stu

 
Messages:5
Registered:July 2017
One thing that helped me with the NCTH system (I got frustrated a lot at the start too) was using burst fire often. It's completely different to vanilla, from what I remember in vanilla you couldn't spent AP to aim for burst fire but with 1.13 you can; you take the time to aim then let three shots off at once and seem to have more chance to hit the enemy at least once. Then as your mercs get better and increase experience, better gear etc they get better at single shots when necessary so you don't need to expend as much ammo... but they also get better at burst so you can absolutely trash some enemies.

I have Igor rocking an M16 with 7x scope and he absolutely annihilates people with burst fire thanks to all levels of aiming that he can apply. The amount of work and thought that these guys have put into this mod is fantastic.

Oh, and aim at legs with burst fire happy

[Updated on: Fri, 14 July 2017 12:51]

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Re: Struggling - They shoot that bad - even with high Marksmanship [message #350698 is a reply to message #350328] Tue, 22 August 2017 14:05 Go to previous message
oak43

 
Messages:13
Registered:August 2017
i also changed these to, at least, give me a couple of turns to fire/miss/fire/miss/fire/hit.

it was really frustrating to miss 3 turns in a row, but a red shirt hitting my mercs, standing with a pistol. Even when they did suppressing fire.

AIM_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -80.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = -80.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = -30.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = -30.0

[Updated on: Tue, 22 August 2017 14:07]

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