Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Combat/Weapon Academy » Can iron sights be improved?
Can iron sights be improved?[message #353453] Sat, 12 May 2018 15:09 Go to next message
desdinova
Messages:2
Registered:May 2018
It seems like until you get some kind of optic, SMGs/rifles are inferior to pistols: both are apparently equally inaccurate, but pistols have a higher volume of fire. If the conceit of the game is that 1 square = 10 yards, pistols should be all but useless beyond point-blank range.

This leads to situations where a rifle or SMG-armed squad is taken down by mooks blazing away with pistols from what would be 100-200 yards: this not a realistic outcome. In fact, it's ludicrous.

Is there any way to buff iron sight accuracy? The difference between having a scope and iron sights is beyond night and day - it's simply impossible in the game to hit anything at range without one. This isn't realistic: I'm not going to say it's easy, but it's perfectly feasible to engage man-sized targets out to 300 yards with iron sights. I say this as a gun guy IRL and an army veteran - and we didn't get issued ACOGs when I served. Somehow we got by just fine.

I've got other stuff I could bitch about but this is the one that's killing me right now.
Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353456 is a reply to message #353453] Sat, 12 May 2018 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2377
Registered:May 2009
In NCTH system there is an IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS in CTHConstants.ini.



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Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353457 is a reply to message #353456] Sun, 13 May 2018 00:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CareBear

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2016
You can't truly nerf pistols, while keeping everything else usable. You could nerf the range on all pistols, to something like 50m, and then prop up gravity constant, so the bullet will drop after 100m, but that's unrealistic when you have expert gunslingers available. While a mediocre shooter will hit consistently bodyshots within 50m with pistols, expert shooter can shoot even at 100m, and pistol bullet can travel as far as 300m, when fired at slight angle. JA 2 1.13 badly needs different aperture for different weapons, i guess it could be easily implemented but oh well, no one cares. Pistols should have bigger starting aperture, since they have shorter aiming line[distance between weapons sights] but with aiming and experience they can be quite accurate. That could remedy the retarded 150m pistol shots in vanilla 1.13. Someone who made this obviously never shot pistol in his life.
Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353458 is a reply to message #353457] Sun, 13 May 2018 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1077
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
Someone who made this obviously never shot pistol in his life.



The original designers admitted they knew basically nothing about firearms. Still, look at what they created! And nobody has come close to besting them in 19 years! IMO




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Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353463 is a reply to message #353458] Sun, 13 May 2018 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:281
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
edmortimer wrote on Sat, 12 May 2018 15:24
Quote:
Someone who made this obviously never shot pistol in his life.



The original designers admitted they knew basically nothing about firearms. Still, look at what they created! And nobody has come close to besting them in 19 years! IMO



For the technology available at release, and being focused on a squad based tactical turn based game, it is a most excellent platform. Could it be better now? yes if someone put real money into rebuilding the concept with all that was in the original and adding what we have learned here, unfortunately all the followups tried have tried to modernize the concept of the game not just the engine thus changing the flavor as well.

As to the OP issue it goes to scale, which is what AIMNAS/Big MAps is trying to address and from my readings moving to a 1square= 3 meters base (the last hard numbers I read) seems to greatly improve the ability of weapons to be nuanced and to improve the realism quite a bit. Personally I hope once the base maps have been redone for big maps that the community at large will move towards it as the new starting point. The scale difference should make many things better a proper balance between iron sights and scopes, all the newer vehicle changes, underwater tactics.
Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353464 is a reply to message #353457] Sun, 13 May 2018 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2377
Registered:May 2009
CareBear wrote on Sat, 12 May 2018 23:39
JA 2 1.13 badly needs different aperture for different weapons, i guess it could be easily implemented but oh well, no one cares.

You mean something that affects the accuracy of weapons? Too bad we don't have <nAccuracy> in Weapons.xml which already makes pistols much more inaccurate than rifle type guns... cheeky



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Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353465 is a reply to message #353464] Sun, 13 May 2018 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CareBear

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2016
You misterstood me. Of course there is nAccuracy but it doesn't affect the baseline aperture which is constant for every weapon. What it does that it enable you to make the gun very accurate when you aim it enough. So with high naccuracy you have the same aperture, but given the shooter MRK and aiming levels like 8, being prone, having sniper perk, the weapon will get to that accuracy.

You can clearly see the system is flawed with pistols, that when you set aperture to 10, and max_bullet_dev to something like 2, and pistol accuracy to 0, rifles and AR will be accurate like in real life, making single shots hitting at 200-300 yards, but the pistols will be super accurate even beyond their range -even if you set the aiming beyond max range penalty to 1[highest].

[Updated on: Sun, 13 May 2018 15:13]

Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353469 is a reply to message #353465] Sun, 13 May 2018 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2377
Registered:May 2009
The baseline aperture doesn't need to be affected. The final aperture is affected as it should be. Btw. if you set those values that low then you will get unrealistic results across the board.
shooting range != real combat
Of course you can modify the values as much as you want in your game but don't say the options aren't there.
Personally I prefer the non shooting range default values that we have because this is JA2 and not a shooting range for experienced sharpshooters. I know that many players disagree with me and stick to OCTH because they like that unrealistic head shot game. I rather stick to real world statistics and army experience.



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Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353474 is a reply to message #353469] Sun, 13 May 2018 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CareBear

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2016
Seriously a trained shooter with 20 inch barrel AR-15 should always hit a still/standing center of body at 200 yards[20 ingame tiles]. Im not talking about moving target because you can set a massive penalty for moving targets, but a standing target is easy to hit. Ive been in open range, and even untrained people hit targets at 200 yards, while there wasn't much wind on the range. It's not a rocket science. Hell, in the army it was a requirement to shoot while being prone, a standing target with open sights at 200 yards, and this was with AK based platform[kbk beryl]. Shooting at 500-600 yards i presume is much harder with AR-15 platform, but i haven't checked that[no such long ranges in my country]. With NCTH its pretty much impossible to score such hits for reasonably trained fighter. And while you adjust NCTH so the 200 yards shots will be mostly guaranteed, then the pistols get unreasonably strong -and there's no remedy for that. Changing the nAccuracy will do nothing, you can only change pistol range to something like 4-5 tiles[40-50m respectably], but then the bullets will drop after 100m, which is also unrealistic, since 9x19 will travel 200-300m, before hitting ground. If you change gravity to prevent this, then the pistols still can shoot with reasonable accuracy at 150m, which is unacceptable[unless its a custom built 8 inch barrel match pistol and experienced shooter].

With 10 max aperture, cone of fire is quite small on distance of 5-10 tiles, hence even unaimed pistol shots have a great chance to hit. That's why i would like different initial cone of fires for each weapon class, but especially for pistols, since they cause most of the trouble.

[Updated on: Sun, 13 May 2018 21:38]

Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353477 is a reply to message #353474] Sun, 13 May 2018 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
melm
Messages:2
Registered:May 2018
Changing NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE to something like 150-200 helps a little. At the default value of 70 (7 tiles), both pistols and rifles with ironsights start taking dramatic CTH penalties far before their range and accuracy stats really come into play. With a higher value, engagement ranges are increased somewhat, but pistols will have a hard time competing with rifles and SMGs at ranges greater than their typical 10-12 tiles. At distances below that range they will still tend to overperform, but at least this way rifles have some use before you get scopes for them.

[Updated on: Sun, 13 May 2018 22:36]

Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353478 is a reply to message #353477] Sun, 13 May 2018 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:258
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
I usually crank up gravity so bullets drop few tiles after max range,
not perfect but at least reduces much ridiculous stuff to happen.
Compensate effect on AI with max_eff_range_modifier to e.g. 1.6

Range bonus of match ammo is imo too high for short range weapons,
and also for ARs at lower degree,
would probably fit better if match ammo increases a guns range by % instead of fixed value.
Also match ammo needs a backdraw, e,g, assign reliability -1
Even more valid for the barrel extension, one of the most ridiculous gimmicks ever,
default backdraw should compensate >50% of its advantage, and range bonus not stack with match ammo.
Personally i would agree to remove it from game completely! (or make it "penalty only" & "cant be damaged" >:)

Decreasing dmg with range would be realistic
and probably also help to at least reduce the effect of shooting far beyond max range,
but i guess its not an easy task to add exponential functions to existing code

btw pistol long range:
Assuming 1.8 m size the center mass of humanoid target is at ~1.2m
9mm 115gr fmj fired from glock 17 drops ~ 1.2m at 150 m.
at that range the sights aim 0.6m above the head at an imagined spot
as the 30mm wide pistol covers 45cm width in150m distane, 1.e. most of the target.
For aiming at the head, its already completely hidden at <100m(i.e. shoot unseen should partially kick in)
.40 135gr fmj @ glock 22 will stretch range ~12% before 1.2m drop is reached,
may get a bit more from other catridges and ~20% from reasonably longer barrels.
.
Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353479 is a reply to message #353477] Mon, 14 May 2018 00:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CareBear

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2016
melm wrote on Sun, 13 May 2018 21:36
Changing NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE to something like 150-200 helps a little. At the default value of 70 (7 tiles), both pistols and rifles with ironsights start taking dramatic CTH penalties far before their range and accuracy stats really come into play. With a higher value, engagement ranges are increased somewhat, but pistols will have a hard time competing with rifles and SMGs at ranges greater than their typical 10-12 tiles. At distances below that range they will still tend to overperform, but at least this way rifles have some use before you get scopes for them.



This helps but at the same time it hinders some scopes. With 200 normal shooting distance, the 10x scopes can give bonuses up to 2000m range or 200 tiles. With such a high range, i need to have very low SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER for it to be usable on lower ranges. A 10x scope can give benefits even at 300-400. This fucks up other scopes and AIM_TOO_CLOSE_PENALTY. I usually set normal shooting distance to something like 100, since it corresponds well to the other variables, mainly SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER being 0,3 with ACOG giving benefits even at 130m, and a normal range at 400m.
Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353480 is a reply to message #353478] Mon, 14 May 2018 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2377
Registered:May 2009
townltu wrote on Sun, 13 May 2018 22:32

Decreasing dmg with range would be realistic
and probably also help to at least reduce the effect of shooting far beyond max range,
but i guess its not an easy task to add exponential functions to existing code

That's already in the game.



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Re: Can iron sights be improved?[message #353491 is a reply to message #353480] Mon, 14 May 2018 11:38 Go to previous message
townltu

 
Messages:258
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
silversurfer wrote on Mon, 14 May 2018 01:34
...
That's already in the game.

Thanks for the info, and pardon me for being too blind to notice,
may i ask whether high gravity has impact on the amount of dmg reduction due to range?
(noticed somewhat more tiny&zero_dmg hits on my mercs)
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