Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?
Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354007] Fri, 13 July 2018 14:37 Go to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
Hi,

Retractable Stock (retracted) :
-5% To-Hit Bonus
-33% AP-to-Ready Modifier

Retractable Stock (extended) :
-5% To-Hit Bonus

What's the point of extended retractable stock if it's just worse than retracted ?

Is it a bug ?
Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354009 is a reply to message #354007] Fri, 13 July 2018 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
It's not a bug. The bonuses and penalties depend on the chance to hit system the player is using. In NCTH they are different:

Retractable Stock (retracted) :
-5% To-Hit Bonus
-33% AP-to-Ready Modifier
-20% Max Counter Force
-20% Counter Force Accuracy
+1 Aim Levels

Retractable Stock (extended) :
-5% To-Hit Bonus

You can probably see that the retracted stock has quite some drawbacks.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354010 is a reply to message #354009] Fri, 13 July 2018 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
silversurfer wrote on Fri, 13 July 2018 16:56
The bonuses and penalties depend on the chance to hit system the player is using. In NCTH they are different


Oh ok !

I'm using OCTH. I don't have the drawbacks you are talking about.

So with OCTH extented retractable stocks are useless ?
Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354015 is a reply to message #354010] Fri, 13 July 2018 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
It seems so. The feature to switch between extended and retractable stocks was only recently introduced and OCTH doesn't have a lot of the modifiers. This may lead to the fact that some versions of stocks seem rather useless. Just ignore them.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354016 is a reply to message #354015] Fri, 13 July 2018 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
Thanks silversufer happy
Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354276 is a reply to message #354016] Thu, 09 August 2018 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3416
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Ignoring does no longer work, as many guns got inseparable folding stocks back in October '17. For this reason, the extended versions have their -5% To-Hit Bonus removed as of GameDir r2434.



"Is there any way to get the blood to flow up the walls?"
"I don't see why not."

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354277 is a reply to message #354276] Thu, 09 August 2018 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
Flugente wrote on Thu, 09 August 2018 22:03
Ignoring does no longer work, as many guns got inseparable folding stocks back in October '17. For this reason, the extended versions have their -5% To-Hit Bonus removed as of GameDir r2434.

Why this change? The 5% to-hit penalty was there on purpose, namely because a folding stock isn't as stable as a fixed stock. That's the price people have to pay for having a stock that can be folded anytime compared to a fixed stock.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354278 is a reply to message #354277] Thu, 09 August 2018 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3416
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Because these things are now on tons of guns, and cannot be removed. No matter how you fold them, you always had that penalty. Effectively all those guns were nerfed in OCTH without any benefit.

Edit: Hmm. Though perhaps it does make sense on the separable versions, however confusing it will look.

[Updated on: Fri, 10 August 2018 00:57]




"Is there any way to get the blood to flow up the walls?"
"I don't see why not."

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354279 is a reply to message #354278] Fri, 10 August 2018 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
Actually no gun was nerfed with the change last year. Before you had the penalty built in the weapon so you couldn't remove it. Or you could attach a folding stock to other weapons and also got the penalty. Now you have the same options only that guns that had build-in bonuses/penalties before now have an additional setting "unfolded" that didn't exist before.
Your change actually made folding stocks better than before. big grin



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354290 is a reply to message #354279] Fri, 10 August 2018 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3416
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Those guns had a 1% cth penalty. That was removed, inseparable stocks added, and those always had -5% cth penalty with no way to skip that. Seems like a nerf to me.

I guess I could add the 1% cth penalty to the extended stock variants though.



"Is there any way to get the blood to flow up the walls?"
"I don't see why not."

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354293 is a reply to message #354290] Fri, 10 August 2018 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
Yes, I think a small penalty should be there. Otherwise there would be no difference between a folding stock and a fixed stock.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354314 is a reply to message #354293] Sun, 12 August 2018 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gopas

 
Messages:175
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway
I really don't understand the thing with the stocks. If they give a penalty (...but it's a little harder to hit things...) why would they be needed ? Folding and retractable stocks were always meant for small firearms, going back to the MP40, even the Colt Buntline. A sniper rifle-for example-is supposed to be all about accuracy, why would a weapons manufacturer would add anything but a solid stock to such a rifle ? It would have to be perfectly tight otherwise the sniper rifle becomes useless. Assault rifles also. I have used M1 Garand, G3A3 and FN-FAL in the military, long time ago. The FN-FNS is a carbine and it had a non solid stock, so did the G3A4. Folding stocks and such are for weapons such as the Uzi, Mac-10,Scorpion and such. Assault and Sniper rifles are meant for serious business.It's like Colt or Browning or Erma or FN, adding retractables and folding stocks so they can go backwards and make their weapons inaccurate. Please explain.

[Updated on: Sun, 12 August 2018 02:24]




Just another old soldier.
Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354317 is a reply to message #354314] Sun, 12 August 2018 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
In my time we were still using the G3A3 which has a fixed stock. Guns with fixed stocks are usually too large to fit into cramped spaces like a tank. Therefore we only used them during basic training but took Uzis in the tank. Guns with no/folded stock are also better for fighting in close quarters but for long range you want to use the stock for stability.
Folding stocks are basically for flexibility so the shooter gets the advantages of a fixed stock or no stock at the right time. That's why folding/retractable stocks were invented.

Maybe modern retractable stocks are almost as good as a fixed stock but older ones are not. Unfortunately JA 1.13 only has two folding/retractable stock variants and those fit a lot of the guns. If you want to redesign the stocks and add special stocks for all guns be my guest. Until then I think we have to live with a generic folding/retractable stock that just isn't as good as a fixed stock.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354332 is a reply to message #354317] Mon, 13 August 2018 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
Personnaly I removed the -5% To-Hit bonus to both folding and retractable stocks in Items.xml

Now I have :

Stock (retracted) :
-5% To-Hit Bonus
-33% AP-to-Ready Modifier

Stock (extended) :
Nothing

Previous version didn't make sense in OCTH. You would always go for retracted version.
Re: Extended Retractable Stock always worse than Retracted ?[message #354349 is a reply to message #354332] Tue, 14 August 2018 05:42 Go to previous message
Gopas

 
Messages:175
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway
Thank you Silver for the explanation. In my time we also used the G3A3, i do not know what the tankers did though. In JA2 we don't ride in tanks happy. I am not a stickler about fixed stocks although i respect them more than the "shaky" stocks, as i think of them.

Bottom line is that no matter what, it's a game and as RedFaction pointed out, i can change the settings to my liking. I was just curious why a perfectly good sniper rifle like the AWM for example, would be ruined by a shaky stock. To my surprise, when i did a little research, i saw pictures of the AWM with what looks like a folding stock. Well, i'll have to assume that modern shaky stocks are probably better.



Just another old soldier.
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