Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?
Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354520] Fri, 24 August 2018 19:11 Go to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
I don't intend to resurrect an old topic which may have been long time discussed.

It's just that reading the topics out there it seems that some mods like sevenfm AI+ or Strohmann SDO are highly praised, but require an older build which prevents us from enjoying the last features/bug fixes.

For instance I have been advised to use AI+ to make AI use the mortars.
But on the other side, silversurfer just fixed what is to me a gameplay inconsistency which was the 4 tiles maximum inacurracy mortar radius.

Unfortunatly if I'm not mistaken AI+ is based on 7609 and silversurfer fix is in the last build.

Why ?
Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354521 is a reply to message #354520] Fri, 24 August 2018 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
RedFaction wrote on Fri, 24 August 2018 21:11
I don't intend to resurrect an old topic which may have been long time discussed.

It's just that reading the topics out there it seems that some mods like sevenfm AI+ or Strohmann SDO are highly praised, but require an older build which prevents us from enjoying the last features/bug fixes.

For instance I have been advised to use AI+ to make AI use the mortars.
But on the other side, silversurfer just fixed what is to me a gameplay inconsistency which was the 4 tiles maximum inacurracy mortar radius.

Unfortunatly if I'm not mistaken AI+ is based on 7609 and silversurfer fix is in the last build.

Why ?

Strohmann's SDO is XML mod, it's easy to update it to actual trunk, but there are no people willing to spend time on it.

In actual version of Ja2+AI.exe, I implemented silversurfer's improvements for throwing weapons but in a different way, it seems now better than in stock 7609 as it's not easy to hit the exact spot, especially at distance.
I work on a separate branch based on stable 7609 because it's more convenient for me, because there are many great mods for 7609 that don't work with actual trunk and because I need a stable code base that doesn't radically changes every month. Also my project is too experimental, I make changes that cannot be incorporated into the main trunk for many reasons.
And merging AI mod into main trunk is unlikely to happen as it's already more than 700 revisions, it's just too much work with zero motivation.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r922) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354523 is a reply to message #354521] Sat, 25 August 2018 00:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise

 
Messages:52
Registered:April 2013
I see your point, a total conversion of AI mod into main branch is not possible. But could it perhaps be possible to improve the AI in the main branch just regarding very basic things? Like enemy soldiers taking proper cover, not charging head-on etc.
Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354526 is a reply to message #354523] Sat, 25 August 2018 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
crackwise wrote on Sat, 25 August 2018 02:23
I see your point, a total conversion of AI mod into main branch is not possible. But could it perhaps be possible to improve the AI in the main branch just regarding very basic things? Like enemy soldiers taking proper cover, not charging head-on etc.

Those "very basic things" are the main things Ja2+AI does and they took more than year for me to implement, and still far from working well. What looks to be easy from player's view are actually very complex things when you look at the code. The game AI was originally made for a completely different game mechanics 20 years ago, and it was made to be aggressive as it was the idea of the game and because it solves so many problems for AI. Once you make AI less aggressive in actual 1.13 (which is really easy), the game becomes a turkey shoot for a player, because AI has no idea of how to work with increased vision distance from scopes and binocs, because it has no idea how to play defensively and hide effectively and because weapons in 1.13 are much more accurate with all attachments and you can bring much more mercs and militia to a battle than in original game. And teaching AI to effectively solve all these problems is not something easy to do.

p.s. If you want quick and easy way to make stock 1.13 interesting and challenging - remove vision bonuses from scopes and binocs, and remove most effective attachments from the game, leaving something like 2x scopes and basic lasers, the original AI will work much better.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2018 10:51]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r922) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354545 is a reply to message #354521] Sun, 26 August 2018 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
sevenfm wrote on Fri, 24 August 2018 19:20
I implemented silversurfer's improvements for throwing weapons but in a different way

I though it was a mod done long time ago but it looks like you are still actively working on it.

I didn't see you implemented a similar solution on your side regarding mortar radius problem happy .. quite quick btw !

So to sum up there is no choice to do. You still look around for issues fixed in the main branch and bring a solution by yourself in your own mod.

I guess my next game will be Ja2+AI. Maybe I will try NCTH this time happy
Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354546 is a reply to message #354545] Sun, 26 August 2018 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
RedFaction wrote on Sun, 26 August 2018 22:21
I guess my next game will be Ja2+AI. Maybe I will try NCTH this time happy

NCTH is also a bit different in Ja2+AI - shot distribution inside the aperture is changed, movement penalty works a bit different and there are other small changes.
Here's an example of playing with NCTH in Ja2+AI (SDO item mod + Wildfire maps)



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r922) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354566 is a reply to message #354545] Tue, 28 August 2018 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SmokinGun

 
Messages:58
Registered:June 2007
Location: Land of New Rising Sun
RedFaction wrote on Sun, 26 August 2018 17:21

I guess my next game will be Ja2+AI. Maybe I will try NCTH this time happy


Try Arulco Vacations Mod V1.10.

Ed's mod is excellent and it contains many different elements of the brilliant and generous efforts made and contributed by many modders continuing to work and improve on the base game.

Try Arulco Revisited Mod V1.4 for a different experience.

Try Urban Chaos 1.13 Mod with Arulco folding Stock.

Try SOG 69 Mod,

In Short- the Original JA 2 with 1.12 patch is great fun...well before any of the 1.13 changes began to arrive. You can buy JA2 for what? $6 bucks? And you can play numerous mods developed over many years by talented passionate people offered to YOU for free.

Honestly you come across as somewhat of an entitled brat eek whining and criticizing about things YOU WANT rather than having a real perspective on the long development of a labor of love by so many modders. This website is a TREASURE that reflects that love.



Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354570 is a reply to message #354566] Tue, 28 August 2018 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RedFaction

 
Messages:37
Registered:July 2018
SmokinGun wrote on Tue, 28 August 2018 07:49
Honestly you come across as somewhat of an entitled brat eek whining and criticizing about things YOU WANT rather than having a real perspective on the long development of a labor of love by so many modders. This website is a TREASURE that reflects that love.

You can get wrong on people on the internet happy for instance I though you were someone houghty and arrogant, who you are not of course ;)

Thanks for suggestions !
Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354741 is a reply to message #354526] Fri, 07 September 2018 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amgot

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2011
sevenfm wrote on Sat, 25 August 2018 09:26

p.s. If you want quick and easy way to make stock 1.13 interesting and challenging - remove vision bonuses from scopes and binocs, and remove most effective attachments from the game, leaving something like 2x scopes and basic lasers, the original AI will work much better.


That's exactly what I ended up doing when I last replayed JA2 1.13 many years ago.

Now I'm planning on a new runthrough soon with 7609 and your AI improvement mod : using the latter, do I still need to remove vision bonuses from scopes and binoculars and remove most effective attachments or does the improved AI now knows how to use them effectively? And if I still were to remove vision bonuses from scopes and binocs, would that confuse your enhanced AI? I've never liked that mechanic too much anyway..

Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354750 is a reply to message #354741] Fri, 07 September 2018 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Amgot wrote on Fri, 07 September 2018 15:42
That's exactly what I ended up doing when I last replayed JA2 1.13 many years ago.

Now I'm planning on a new runthrough soon with 7609 and your AI improvement mod : using the latter, do I still need to remove vision bonuses from scopes and binoculars and remove most effective attachments or does the improved AI now knows how to use them effectively? And if I still were to remove vision bonuses from scopes and binocs, would that confuse your enhanced AI? I've never liked that mechanic too much anyway..


There are two main problems with original (and 1.13) Ja2 AI:
1. It cannot hide (in fact, it even doesn't check LOS in the code, except one or two special situations).
That means, if your merc has better vision distance than enemy, they don't know what to do. They will not hide from sight, they will not choose location where they can see opponent, instead they can only try to hide from bullets behind the obstacle or run directly to the closest opponent.
2. It is designed to fight statistically, so it will choose location which is preferrable statistically in the long term.
So in the typical one shot-one kill situation in 1.13, AI gets killed before it's black (combat) AI even starts to work.
3. Distance of taking cover decision is limited to several tiles usually.
That means, if there are no tile with good cover nearby, AI will not even try to hide most of the time.
4. It cannot shoot on invisible opponents, even for suppression. So, if AI opponent cannot see you, he is helpless.

So, best situation for original (and 1.13 which is the same) AI is:
- dense map with many obstacles, like forest or many small rocks, placed no further than 3-4 tiles from each other
- no big bonuses/penalties for sight range, so no vision bonus from scopes/binocs, and other bonuses/penalties should be like 1-2 tiles
- no one shot-one kill situation, so average CTH should be like 75% for best sniper at day range, and something like 25-50% for average soldier at day range

Ja2+AI tries to solve some of these issues:
1. It will hide from sight of known mercs, and in general it will try to choose position behind some cover from opponent's direction.
2. It will better choose position and not move out of cover without AP's to shoot, for example, and it will check enemy's chance to interrupt and shoot him.
3. It will try to advance to enemy not in a straight line, but from cover to cover, it makes spotting and shooting him much harder task.
4. It can shoot on invisible (heard only) opponents for suppression, and sometimes attack them with grenade. So expect a lot of 'blind fire' from enemy if you want to snipe them from distance.

So, in general, it works much better now with 1.13 game mechanics like scope vision bonuses.
But still, it's the same old AI with some fixes and improvements, so removing bonuses and too effective attachments is recommended for best playing experience, though not definitely needed now.
I can recommend you to play some mod, for example SDO+AR or SDO+Wildfire (with NCTH or OCTH) and see how it works. Or some new mods like Arulco Vacations which have interesting and well tested weapon balance.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r922) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354761 is a reply to message #354750] Sat, 08 September 2018 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amgot

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2011
Thanks for your detailed reply. I was thinking of trying Arulco Revisited as I've never played that one before. Another option I've been considering is UC 4.50, which works with the 7609 version as a base - if if use this version I can also use your 7609+AI exe, is that correct?
Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354762 is a reply to message #354761] Sat, 08 September 2018 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Amgot wrote on Sat, 08 September 2018 13:19
Thanks for your detailed reply. I was thinking of trying Arulco Revisited as I've never played that one before. Another option I've been considering is UC 4.50, which works with the 7609 version as a base - if if use this version I can also use your 7609+AI exe, is that correct?

Yes, it will work with any mod based on official 7609.
There should be UC for 7609 in my unofficial modpack, tested with +AI exe.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r922) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354763 is a reply to message #354762] Sat, 08 September 2018 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amgot

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2011
sevenfm wrote on Sat, 08 September 2018 11:28
Amgot wrote on Sat, 08 September 2018 13:19
Thanks for your detailed reply. I was thinking of trying Arulco Revisited as I've never played that one before. Another option I've been considering is UC 4.50, which works with the 7609 version as a base - if if use this version I can also use your 7609+AI exe, is that correct?

Yes, it will work with any mod based on official 7609.
There should be UC for 7609 in my unofficial modpack, tested with +AI exe.


Thanks I'll grab that. Is that the latest +AI exe though?

[Updated on: Sat, 08 September 2018 12:56]

Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354769 is a reply to message #354763] Sat, 08 September 2018 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Amgot wrote on Sat, 08 September 2018 14:54
Thanks I'll grab that. Is that the latest +AI exe though?

Actual Ja2+AI r750 can be found on my google drive, link in the sig.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r922) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Essential mods vs main branch : why choose ?[message #354773 is a reply to message #354769] Sat, 08 September 2018 22:08 Go to previous message
Amgot

 
Messages:7
Registered:April 2011
спасибо, your work on the AI is, as far as I'm concerned, the most important development we've had with JA2 modding in the past few years.
Previous Topic: Savegame Editor
Next Topic: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Thu Dec 13 06:08:06 EET 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01101 seconds