Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time
Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354613] Fri, 31 August 2018 17:18 Go to next message
Boursk

 
Messages:34
Registered:August 2018
So I'm playing on Insane difficulty (Yes indeed, funny how that works right?) , and whenever an enemy somehow manages to have sight on at least one of my mercs the rest of the enemies besides the one that spotted me accuracies in nighttime is absolutely ridiculous, like I'm talking going full auto with an AR 15 tiles away and 80 % of the shots hitting kind-of-accuracy.

I don't seem to recall this being the case back when I played couple years ago, is this an option I can change or what? :o

I like challenging fights sometimes but I'd say this is a bit silly heart

[Updated on: Fri, 31 August 2018 17:20]

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354614 is a reply to message #354613] Fri, 31 August 2018 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
That's why it's called "insane".
You could modify DifficultySettings.xml but then you might as well play on "expert"...



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Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354615 is a reply to message #354614] Fri, 31 August 2018 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boursk

 
Messages:34
Registered:August 2018
silversurfer wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 17:54
That's why it's called "insane".
You could modify DifficultySettings.xml but then you might as well play on "expert"...


Does Insane difficulty make enemies that can't see you able to wallbang you too as long as there is just 1 enemy that has vision? Because that is something I definetly didn't recognize from when I played few years ago haha

Maybe my memory is just shit..

[Updated on: Fri, 31 August 2018 19:56]

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354616 is a reply to message #354615] Fri, 31 August 2018 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:108
Registered:December 2015
Try toggling off ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE if it's on, it is kinda a bit wonky if you use NCTH in situations like this, attracting a bit too many hits from what should be pretty inaccurate fire. Other things you can do is increase the penalty when aiming at invisible enemies in CTHconstants.ini (vanilla has something like 50 penalty, SDO for example uses 200 which kinda makes sense, how can you actively aim at something you can't see) and/or modify their CTH bonus at insane difficulty in DifficultySettings.xml.

Or just, you know, don't play on insane cheeky it is kinda insane cheeky
Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354617 is a reply to message #354614] Fri, 31 August 2018 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:314
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Is there any option in difficultySetting.xml which has decent effect on enemies accuray respectively cth?
Pls let me know, i just took a look didnt see any.
Also cant remember something directly related to enemy cth in JA2 Options.ini,
and at least didnt notice a difference between expert and insane during the last 15 or so playthroughs, > 2/3 on insane and the rest on expert.

btw from my experience there are some settings like aggressive_strategic_ai = 2
which have higher effect on difficulty than the 4 option switch on game start.
But that may be tied to my quite cautious (some may call it coward;) approach caused by playing IM.
Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354619 is a reply to message #354617] Fri, 31 August 2018 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3424
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
You could take a look at

CthConstantsAimDifficulty : min -1000.0, max 1000.0
CthConstantsBaseDifficulty : These modifiers are applied based on game difficulty, and only affect the base CTH of ENEMY COMBATANTS. min -1000.0, max 1000.0

in DiffcultySettings.xml and
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Enemy CtH bonus
; Theses settings determine percentual multiplier of enemy Chance To Hit with guns or in close combat.
; "0" means <no change>, 100 means the CtH will be doubled every time (so if the enemy would have 30% CtH on the 
; current shot, he has 60% instead).
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

; values represent percentual increase
ADMIN_CTH_BONUS_PERCENT = 0
REGULAR_CTH_BONUS_PERCENT = 0
ELITE_CTH_BONUS_PERCENT = 10

in JA2_options.ini.



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Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354621 is a reply to message #354619] Fri, 31 August 2018 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:314
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Thanks for the info @flugente,
assuming unmidified cth of 50% thats 60%@expert vs 75%@insane, aka a hard to miss improvement of 25%,
either distorted perception or my mercs didnt get shot enough at all.

Regading the cth bonus for admin/regular/elite in ja2Options.ini,
did i get that wrong that this modifier is only linked to type of enemy we encounter instead of difficulty setting?



btw and completely OT, I think the term elite is quite inappropriate.
The real Elite rank requires 6400 kill counts,
assuning that according to C64 calculation a lvl 1 merc or Arulcan rebel would hardly count as a full point,
the so called elites should rank from above average to dangerous at non linear randomness,
appearances of "deadly" ranked enemies get an additional limited
and restrict Elite to unique entities, like 1 or 2 "Terrorists" and definitely Joe,
who should really be "told" that its a bad idea to steal a weapon if he faces a dozen mercs who spawned next to him.
Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354623 is a reply to message #354616] Sat, 01 September 2018 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boursk

 
Messages:34
Registered:August 2018
LatZee wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 20:50
Try toggling off ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE if it's on, it is kinda a bit wonky if you use NCTH in situations like this, attracting a bit too many hits from what should be pretty inaccurate fire. Other things you can do is increase the penalty when aiming at invisible enemies in CTHconstants.ini (vanilla has something like 50 penalty, SDO for example uses 200 which kinda makes sense, how can you actively aim at something you can't see) and/or modify their CTH bonus at insane difficulty in DifficultySettings.xml.

Or just, you know, don't play on insane cheeky it is kinda insane cheeky


I'm not even using NCTH so does that mean INSANE difficulty alone is raising these values for enemies to hit and/or also for my mercs?

Or should I turn the option off even if I'm not using NCTH (NCTH is off but the ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE is ON fyi)

[Updated on: Sat, 01 September 2018 01:00]

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354624 is a reply to message #354619] Sat, 01 September 2018 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boursk

 
Messages:34
Registered:August 2018
Flugente wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 21:48
You could take a look at

CthConstantsAimDifficulty : min -1000.0, max 1000.0
CthConstantsBaseDifficulty : These modifiers are applied based on game difficulty, and only affect the base CTH of ENEMY COMBATANTS. min -1000.0, max 1000.0

in DiffcultySettings.xml and
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Enemy CtH bonus
; Theses settings determine percentual multiplier of enemy Chance To Hit with guns or in close combat.
; "0" means <no change>, 100 means the CtH will be doubled every time (so if the enemy would have 30% CtH on the 
; current shot, he has 60% instead).
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

; values represent percentual increase
ADMIN_CTH_BONUS_PERCENT = 0
REGULAR_CTH_BONUS_PERCENT = 0
ELITE_CTH_BONUS_PERCENT = 10

in JA2_options.ini.


Were the values of enemy CTH changed by 1.13 at some point to justify setting to INSANE difficulty or were they kept at vanilla values of INSANE mode? Because last time I played I guess it's possible a change had not been made yet at the time of the current version of the mod (Forgive me for not scrolling through 20 arks of changes to look for the specific value change, figured it'd be easier asking incase someone knew)

Thast kind of the thing that doesn't sit well with me about about 1.13; there's alot of things being altered yet the default/vanilla values aren't being left in there incase someone would want change them back to what they were as opposed to going along with whatever feels good for them.

(Love the work you're putting into the game nonetheless thumbs up )

[Updated on: Sat, 01 September 2018 00:57]

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354626 is a reply to message #354624] Sat, 01 September 2018 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
Those were the default settings. They have just been externalized to a different file.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354627 is a reply to message #354621] Sat, 01 September 2018 01:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3424
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
townltu wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 20:38
Thanks for the info @flugente,
assuming unmidified cth of 50% thats 60%@expert vs 75%@insane, aka a hard to miss improvement of 25%,
either distorted perception or my mercs didnt get shot enough at all.

Regading the cth bonus for admin/regular/elite in ja2Options.ini,
did i get that wrong that this modifier is only linked to type of enemy we encounter instead of difficulty setting?

Its only based on enemy types, like it says.

townltu wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 20:38

btw and completely OT, I think the term elite is quite inappropriate.
The real Elite rank requires 6400 kill counts,
assuning that according to C64 calculation a lvl 1 merc or Arulcan rebel would hardly count as a full point,
the so called elites should rank from above average to dangerous at non linear randomness,
appearances of "deadly" ranked enemies get an additional limited
and restrict Elite to unique entities, like 1 or 2 "Terrorists" and definitely Joe,
who should really be "told" that its a bad idea to steal a weapon if he faces a dozen mercs who spawned next to him.

Eh... what? Is there justification on how a soldier shall require 6400 kills to be considered elite, or is this supposed to be some cultural reference I don't get?



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"I don't see why not."

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354628 is a reply to message #354627] Sat, 01 September 2018 01:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1786
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Flugente wrote on Sat, 01 September 2018 03:46
Eh... what? Is there justification on how a soldier shall require 6400 kills to be considered elite, or is this supposed to be some cultural reference I don't get?

It's about very old game that people played in the good old days of zx and c64.
I could only reach rank Dangerous in this game and then lost patience.

[Updated on: Sat, 01 September 2018 01:54]




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Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354629 is a reply to message #354628] Sat, 01 September 2018 05:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:314
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Yes the gold old days when joysticks broke because of desperate attempts to evade enemy fire,
or high risk docking maneuvers to overtake the ai oponents so we could sell our stuff before theirs saturated the market.
(although the duels in Pirates took a much higher joystick tribute;)

May I ask when you @sevenfm played Elite respectively lost the patience, at the time when the game was still "young" or much later?
Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354632 is a reply to message #354629] Sat, 01 September 2018 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:154
Registered:January 2018
An aside, but I have to agree with LatZee that currently it does seem that ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE has too high a hit rate. In addition, you have to target some parts of the body of a prone enemy by moving your mouse quite far afield from the target, which just seems to mess too much with targeting (although it is workable overall). The chance to hit a prone character and do major damage, plus be hit, even from stray bullets is just way too high, and the enemy use it a lot.
Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354639 is a reply to message #354632] Sat, 01 September 2018 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
Well, before the changes that came with ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE it was basically a cheat to be immune from stray bullets in prone position. The removal of this cheat can be considered a bugfix. Of course this will be a surprise to players that only know the way it worked before. big grin



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Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354641 is a reply to message #354639] Sat, 01 September 2018 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:154
Registered:January 2018
Well, I get that it is an improvement, supposedly. But I find that one gets hit more when prone than crouching, either intentionally or by accident, and it also works for the player when attacking enemies who are prone. That's why I find the hit rate when prone too high. At least this is true in the early stages, with lower quality Mercs and shorter ranges. It is the change in the range of 5-15 tiles, mostly 6-10 tiles which is very noticeable (at least to me).

I mean, it all depends on what range is considered easy to hit, and where prone begins to benefit or not. But seriously, I get hit a lot less when crouching than prone. Plus there is a bonus to hit those who are on the ground (as if they are knocked out), and this bonus is large, in effect (have no idea what the value is in the code). I can seriously see how idiots like Raffi, Flo, and numerous other low quality Mercs benefit when shooting at prone enemies. I presumed it might be related to this toggleable feature, so I'm trying it out. Maybe it isn't though.

So, I dunno. Prone has almost no benefit within 10 tiles. In the old system, I think I could see where around 6 tiles or more, prone began to benefit you. But with the new ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE I just find that prone is worthless to much longer ranges. In both systems if the attack came from an angle from the side, it was easier to hit the prone target anyway.

I like the CONCEPT, and I like having some ability to target the various parts of the body of a prone target, but realistically, if you are shooting directly at someone prone from similar height, and head on -- you are going to hit the head or the shoulders first, not the legs or the lower torso. I mean sure, we can say that the game has a fudge factor for head-on attacks, in that the target is probably not directly head-on -- but, well you get the idea.

Prone Mercs seem to benefit only from the bracing or "Mounting" feature, or if you later have bipods etc. But defensively being prone doesn't seem to help much to use the terrain or to avoid being hit, like it used to benefit. Makes it hard to see the early stage benefit of being prone, perhaps that is the design.

To put it another way, I think my early stage Mercs benefit significantly from using this toggle for prone effects. This may be because I fight a lot of shorter range battles often in sectors with Militia aid, and I find that in such instances prone targets are getting hit so often it is almost a joke. It almost makes the Militia's crazy antics look sensible with the limited usefulness of being prone.

Of course, I completely forget by now what a Tile's range represents. I used to presume it was 10 meters a tile, but it is probably 2 meters. It seems that during the v1.13 development, the meaning of a tile's range may have been changed.

This post is way longer than I intended. As compared to most pc combat games, you just don't feel prone with this feature anymore. But there have been so many other revisions to v1.13 gameplay over the years, that it's not that clear to single it out. Some of this may be due to the NCTH versus OCTH.

One can adapt either way, but I'm not sure that having ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE ON makes the game any harder in the earlier going for the player. It just makes being prone seem a poor choice in the low ranged battles, especially with lots of lesser capability weapons and allies/enemies.

[Updated on: Sat, 01 September 2018 20:13]

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354657 is a reply to message #354641] Sun, 02 September 2018 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boursk

 
Messages:34
Registered:August 2018
ZedJA2 wrote on Sat, 01 September 2018 20:10
Well, I get that it is an improvement, supposedly. But I find that one gets hit more when prone than crouching, either intentionally or by accident, and it also works for the player when attacking enemies who are prone. That's why I find the hit rate when prone too high. At least this is true in the early stages, with lower quality Mercs and shorter ranges. It is the change in the range of 5-15 tiles, mostly 6-10 tiles which is very noticeable (at least to me).

I mean, it all depends on what range is considered easy to hit, and where prone begins to benefit or not. But seriously, I get hit a lot less when crouching than prone. Plus there is a bonus to hit those who are on the ground (as if they are knocked out), and this bonus is large, in effect (have no idea what the value is in the code). I can seriously see how idiots like Raffi, Flo, and numerous other low quality Mercs benefit when shooting at prone enemies. I presumed it might be related to this toggleable feature, so I'm trying it out. Maybe it isn't though.

So, I dunno. Prone has almost no benefit within 10 tiles. In the old system, I think I could see where around 6 tiles or more, prone began to benefit you. But with the new ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE I just find that prone is worthless to much longer ranges. In both systems if the attack came from an angle from the side, it was easier to hit the prone target anyway.

I like the CONCEPT, and I like having some ability to target the various parts of the body of a prone target, but realistically, if you are shooting directly at someone prone from similar height, and head on -- you are going to hit the head or the shoulders first, not the legs or the lower torso. I mean sure, we can say that the game has a fudge factor for head-on attacks, in that the target is probably not directly head-on -- but, well you get the idea.

Prone Mercs seem to benefit only from the bracing or "Mounting" feature, or if you later have bipods etc. But defensively being prone doesn't seem to help much to use the terrain or to avoid being hit, like it used to benefit. Makes it hard to see the early stage benefit of being prone, perhaps that is the design.

To put it another way, I think my early stage Mercs benefit significantly from using this toggle for prone effects. This may be because I fight a lot of shorter range battles often in sectors with Militia aid, and I find that in such instances prone targets are getting hit so often it is almost a joke. It almost makes the Militia's crazy antics look sensible with the limited usefulness of being prone.

Of course, I completely forget by now what a Tile's range represents. I used to presume it was 10 meters a tile, but it is probably 2 meters. It seems that during the v1.13 development, the meaning of a tile's range may have been changed.

This post is way longer than I intended. As compared to most pc combat games, you just don't feel prone with this feature anymore. But there have been so many other revisions to v1.13 gameplay over the years, that it's not that clear to single it out. Some of this may be due to the NCTH versus OCTH.

One can adapt either way, but I'm not sure that having ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE ON makes the game any harder in the earlier going for the player. It just makes being prone seem a poor choice in the low ranged battles, especially with lots of lesser capability weapons and allies/enemies.


Realism should never be a factor.. because realism 90 % of the time = not fun and not fitting of a game.
Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354658 is a reply to message #354613] Sun, 02 September 2018 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:314
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
Realism is definitely a factor, why else do we have e.g. nice pics for uncountable weapons,
or to go further, instead of graphical illustration some numbers flickering on screen.




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Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354659 is a reply to message #354658] Sun, 02 September 2018 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:154
Registered:January 2018
Well, realism is not really the watchword anyway. From the idea of gaming history or context, taking a prone position has certain value to it. Now, if we want to change that, there should be some substantive explanation as to why.

I'm not for the original prone setting's making you almost immune to accidental or missed shots hitting the prone target. That's not good, really. But, when being prone at the old original game's effective ranges becomes arguably less effective in the new game than being crouched, to avoid hits, I have a problem with that. Now, again, if a case is being made for the these changes being intended, make the case. If not, it's as odd as heck. Like I also said, I can adapt and scam it either way. I actually feel that with a poor squad early on, the ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE being ON makes the game easier for the player to take advantage of than the screwball A.I. at times, though both make use of the advantages.

So realistic or part of the gaming context, I don't really care. Such arguments are sort of highbrow distractions. It's a big change. So it has to be argued for and defended.

Anyway, I'm not looking to go farther into it, SINCE we have the option for both. But, I don't feel that either is really more realistic than the other. Probably somewhere between the two options is where I'd like it to be.

Prone targets should have a low probability to be hit by accidental shots. But it should be possible. (although most games probably don't worry about it because it really doesn't add much to the game, certainly should not add to player tactics -- where here it arguably does add to player calculations). But prone targets being able to aim at a part of their body? That's a huge reach in most of the context of being prone. From the side, maybe, at close enough ranges. From head on, no. From directly behind, maybe you should most likely hit the legs, but you can give the calcs some advantage for likely being undetected and so the target isn't adjusting due to awareness.

Anyway, glad to know about the whole option.

I also agree with Townltu that realism is part of the context of any combat gaming, even if more fun or more simulation genre. Likewise, gameplay is always important, as it's a game, and has the objective to entertain. I would remark though, that with JA2, part and parcel of this game's view to fans, is that the combat fun and combat simulation,to a large amount, go hand in hand supporting each other.

[Updated on: Sun, 02 September 2018 22:24]

Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354696 is a reply to message #354659] Wed, 05 September 2018 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2472
Registered:May 2009
Bullets travel wherever they travel and if an obstacle is in the way the game doesn't care if it's a car, a barrel, a wall, an NPC, a militia or one of our mercs. With stray bullets it's all about luck. That stray bullet that just hit your head in crouched stance would have missed you in prone stance. The stray bullet that hit your head in prone stance would have missed you in crouched stance. So what? If you want to be safer from bullets you need solid cover and tough armor. A different stance doesn't provide cover. It just makes it harder to place aimed shots. Personally I welcome the change and the removal of the old prone exploit.
But that's just like the discussion about OCTH vs. NCTH. Some players hate NCTH because they miss much more often (which is much more realistic) and can't play their well known headshot game that they got used to over the years. So they continue to play OCTH which I don't mind at all. That's why we have so many options in this game.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2018 17:49]




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Re: Ridiculous Accuracy from enemies in night-time[message #354776 is a reply to message #354658] Sun, 09 September 2018 01:47 Go to previous message
Boursk

 
Messages:34
Registered:August 2018
townltu wrote on Sun, 02 September 2018 21:16
Realism is definitely a factor, why else do we have e.g. nice pics for uncountable weapons,
or to go further, instead of graphical illustration some numbers flickering on screen.


"Nice pics" for weapons has nothing to do with realism lol

That's just art related.

I'm talking about actual gameplay.


[Updated on: Sun, 09 September 2018 01:48]

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